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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:10 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:However, I had to start talking about fingers leaning radial in order to make the point that in the elemental system there is no vertical division for the fingers regarding 'inner vs. outer'.
See my previous post.

Martijn (admin) wrote:And Lynn... while writing this post I now also have found a passage in Dukes work which CLEARLY descrbes why you also should NEVER have adopted the 'classic' approach regarding the palm, because Dukes writes on page 48 for the four element quadrants:

"Now you have found the four elemental quadrants of this hand. The elements, and their Chinese terms are as follows: Fire (Huo); Earth (Ti); Air (Feng); Water (Shui). Fire and Air are masculine, active and public in import (yang)[/u]. Earth and water are feminine, passive and private in import (Yin)."

...................

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Fireworksanimation-11


Martijn, when I notice that you have made a mistake, I mention it.
When you notice that I have made a mistake I get it pointed out to me by PM titled "Big mistake!", and then emphasised here in big bold writing underlined . Then you celebrate by letting off some fireworks. You tell me I should NEVER have adopted the 'classic' approach and that I should now reconsider your association for earth with 'outer world' and air with the 'inner world'

Is there anything else you'd like me to do? Maybe I should stand on a platform so that people can throw tomatoes at me whilst shouting YAY Lynn made a mistake! cheers WOOHOO!
rolling on the floor

My big mistake was that, out of all the books and all the stuff I was taught about the elements, I forgot those two words from page 48 of a book I read 16 years ago, 'public' and 'private'. As far as I know that is the only time those two words occur in any of the literature I have describing "Fire and air = public" and "Earth and water = private".

I'm going to have my dinner, but to quote Arnie..."I'll be back" Twisted Evil


Lynn, I get your point regarding how I highlighted your mistake... but please consider my position: I got kind of accused of 'projecting' my ideas and I have like felt like bananas flying around my ears every time I even started mentioning the word 'contradiction', etc.

And during this discussion I have asked you quite a few times to explain things regarding the many contradictions that I spotted.. but now I recognize how your association (regarding air with 'inner') often put me on the wrong track.

For example, after Patti quoted from Christopher's Cyber Cafe post (where he described water as an 'internal element')... I started question how we can understand the elements in terms of 'inner and outer', but then you e.g. responded that such connection could only be made when things are seen certain perspectives.

But now I see that you were actually struggling with your own perceptions Lynn!

Because the fundamentals of the 4 elements regarding 'inner' and 'outer' are actually CRYSTAL CLEAR... and I was just lucky that I have spotted Dukes comment.

( Oh...nooo! This discussion would have evolved mure more efficiently if we had spotted Dukes fundamental guideline much earlier in this discussion, because it relates to the core of our discussions!)


Lynn, I hope you recognize that this is not just a minor element... because I am now 100% confident that Johnny's vocabulary directly origins from Dukes & Christopher's writings (including the inconsistentencies in their works that I have tried to describe!).

By the way, regarding associated with 'public'... I spotted that in Johnny's first book the chapter about the ring finger is word 'public' is mentioned quite a few times - so there is the first confirmation; but on page 53 he also uses the word in the perspective of the pinky finger: 'public speakers'.


By the way, do you now recognize as well how this concerns actually one of the THE key-principles used by Dukes & Fincham regarding how they describe the palmar air quadrant... and the palmar water quadrant?


PS. Anyway, if it helps... I am willing to apologize for my 'public' ( Wink ) fireworks. Yes

(It was basically an expression of my own relief that I had spotted this basic-info - especially after being told/suggested.that things would probably have much been easier for me to understand if I had taken an elemental hand reading course..... Razz ... but now it more looks like that if I or you had started reading Dukes quadrants chapter from A to Z that would actually have been sufficient to solve many problems in this discussion - including the issue reqarding Johnny's word choice, which I now consider as permanently solved!!!).


nice thread

___________________________________________
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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:33 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:However, I had to start talking about fingers leaning radial in order to make the point that in the elemental system there is no vertical division for the fingers regarding 'inner vs. outer'.
See my previous post.
..

Lynn, do you recognize now as well that as air is linked with 'public' and earth with 'private'... it does not make much sense to associate the radial palm with 'outer', because the basic elemental principles for the elements actually show a HORIZONTAL division: the UPPER 2 quadrants of the palm are associated with 'public' (= 'outer').

Simples! Very Happy


And this perfectly makes sense in the perspective that 'spread fingers' are linked with the outer world because the pinky and idex finger 'point away' from the rest of the hand; because in a way we can also say that according this principle it also makes sense to associate the fingers as phyisical expressions that point away from the palm (= body). And thus one can also argue that fingers are more 'outer' than 'inner', and the palm itself is more 'inner' than 'outer', etc.


PS. I could add that the two external phalanges of the thumb also do not support your association regarding radial palm with 'outer'... because it is composed of an 'inner' (2nd phalange) and an 'outer' (1st phalange).

And I could even point out that the radial palm is actually 'surrounded' by 3 hand zones of which the elements are associated with 'inner': the earth finger, the water finger, and the 2nd phalange of the thumb!

Exclamation

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:35 pm

Sucom wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Sucom wrote:"Its limitations and contradictions are blaring in this discussion and in that sense I find this discussion very valuable."

I'm glad I'm not alone with my thoughts here. I so agree with you Patti. When I saw fireworks in Martijn's post I must be honest and say that my eyebrows raised a little higher than normal Shocked

Sue, if you read my response to Patti (which I have just posted) ... then I expect that will probably be able recognize that my analysis does make sense.

And if not, you are very welcome to specify your thoughts.


(I hope you'll understand that I don't get any wiser from your 'raised eyebrows' ... nor your report that you are 'shocked'... because the fireworks only served to underline the content of that post of mine)

My raised eyebrows were created as a result of surprise rather than shock. I did search for an emoticon to represent my slightly raised eyebrows but couldn't find one. The shock emoticon was the closest I could find to describe my look of surprise that you were celebrating your conclusions so far. At this point, I cannot share in your celebration because I don't agree with your conclusions. I think I was surprised that you are happy with your conclusions so far, when for me at least, they seem far from complete.

Sue, again.. please specify: what you think is missing in my conclusions?

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Post  Patti Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:21 am

The top example is from Judith Hipskind and the middle one is from Elizabeth Brenner with the bottom graphic from Nathaniel Altman. You can find similar divisions in the work of Sasha Fenton and Malcolm Wright, and Lori Reid.

I have selected these because some were part of my initial learning and the others are specifically selected because they support my viewpoint and give accuracy in readings.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Judith10


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Elizab10


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Nathan10


If you read from Eugene Scheimann, M.D.'s book "A Doctor's Guide to Better Health Through Palmistry" in the chapter on the thumb, you will see his views are different than Dukes, Fincham and Jones.

In another chapter you'll see his wide spread fingers for example relate to being non-conventional. His definition of a held-in thumb is the introvert, but the outwardly held thumb is not. Showing he recognized how the condition and positioning shifts the energy from outward to inward.


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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:53 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Fireworksanimation-11

From reading through this a second time it seems that your main attempt here is to try to map out a way to read hands that excludes empathy. Empathy allows a person to take all the associations, the connecting dots and try them on like a multi-dimensional cloak and 'experience' the wholeness or holistic, energic, ever pulsing, ever vibrating essence. This can not be done with quadrants or the concept of 2 private and 1 public as having real meaning. Nor can it be done with 5 elements alone. Empathy is what makes a good actor as they can become the personality they are protraying.

P.S.

When I started to post - I got a notice saying another post had been posting so I'll add my response here.

Why are you using Christopher's terminology for dominant and non-dominant hands to support quadrants? scratch

Patti, regarding your question: in my chart I have only refered to Christopher's work in regard to his description for the hypothenar being linked with the senses.

Please reformulate your question, only then I can see what there is to explain for me regarding my reference to the work of Dukes (as I suspect that you are actually talking about my reference to Dukes' work).


wave

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Post  Patti Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:40 am

I don't see the reference now. Somewhere that Christopher referred to the vertical half of the hand and you used it to support your view for a quadrant.

I notice that you use Benham frequently in your graphic, but Benham refers to the left and right hands for the inner and outer selves and describes the mounts independently rather than in quarters.

In fact, I don't think Benham divided the individual hands into halves or quarters at all. At the beginning of Chapter II, he describes how he sees the elements as combined to create the driving force in humans. He does not apply the elements in an isolated method, but in combination instead.

He says:

"In whatever way the compressed energy or driving power is generated, it is made available only by combining a large number of primary elements and forces. Thus with steam, water is necessary, a boiler to hold it, fire to heat the water, a place in which to burn the fire, and fuel with which to build it. All other driving forces are in the same way made up from distinct and separate elements which, combined, will produce their particular kind of power."

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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:47 am

Patti wrote:The top example is from Judith Hipskind and the middle one is from Elizabeth Brenner with the bottom graphic from Nathaniel Altman. You can find similar divisions in the work of Sasha Fenton and Malcolm Wright, and Lori Reid.

I have selected these because some were part of my initial learning and the others are specifically selected because they support my viewpoint and give accuracy in readings.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Judith10


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Elizab10


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Nathan10


If you read from Eugene Scheimann, M.D.'s book "A Doctor's Guide to Better Health Through Palmistry" in the chapter on the thumb, you will see his views are different than Dukes, Fincham and Jones.

In another chapter you'll see his wide spread fingers for example relate to being non-conventional. His definition of a held-in thumb is the introvert, but the outwardly held thumb is not. Showing he recognized how the condition and positioning shifts the energy from outward to inward.


Great post Patti!

Judith Hipskind approach regarding the quadrants is very similar to the quadrant vocabulary in my picture.

(Regarding Elizabeth Brenner's work, well, obviously her work is in contradiction with the elemental system... because Dukes has connected for the palmar quadrants: 'active' and 'public' versus 'passive' and 'private')


PS. Tomorrow I will respond to your reference to Eugene Scheiman's work (I need to open a box to get my example right in front of me)


Great post Patti!

Judith Hipskind approach regarding the quadrants is very similar to the quadrant vocabulary in my picture.

Regarding Elizabeth Brenner's work, well, obviously her work is in contradiction with the elemental system... because Dukes has connected for the palmar quadrants: 'active' and 'public' versus 'passive' and 'private'.

And regarding Altman's charts... I am familiar with those charts, but after I have started focussing on the underlying meaning of the words I would recommend to avoid any use of the words 'subconsious' because formally it has no specific meaning at all and it can also not be connected to any psychoanalytic theory. Duding this discussion I have also become aware that in general one should better avoid mixing psychoanalytic vocabulary with other terminology.


PS. Tomorrow I will respond to your reference to Eugene Scheiman's work (I need to open a box to get my example right in front of me)

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Post  Patti Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:54 am

If you are in agreement with Judith Hipskind then I would be in agreement with you and I'm guessing to some degree so would Sue and Lynn (outside of the elements)

But so far you have argued against us and against Hipskind's quadrants.

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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:58 am

Patti wrote:I don't see the reference now. Somewhere that Christopher referred to the vertical half of the hand and you used it to support your view for a quadrant.

I notice that you use Benham frequently in your graphic, but Benham refers to the left and right hands for the inner and outer selves and describes the mounts independently rather than in quarters.

In fact, I don't think Benham divided the individual hands into halves or quarters at all. At the beginning of Chapter II, he describes how he sees the elements as combined to create the driving force in humans. He does not apply the elements in an isolated method, but in combination instead.

He says:

"In whatever way the compressed energy or driving power is generated, it is made available only by combining a large number of primary elements and forces. Thus with steam, water is necessary, a boiler to hold it, fire to heat the water, a place in which to burn the fire, and fuel with which to build it. All other driving forces are in the same way made up from distinct and separate elements which, combined, will produce their particular kind of power."


Patti, I have only refered to Benham in the perspective of the individual thumb phalanges.

(Later this weekend I hope to present a simple version of the latest chart with key-words only + a table presenting an overview for each the 15 authors regarding whether they have used the key-words for each of hand zones. So, I when that picture is available I hope this will show more explicit what I was heading for during this discussion.)

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:08 am

Patti wrote:If you are in agreement with Judith Hipskind then I would be in agreement with you and I'm guessing to some degree so would Sue and Lynn (outside of the elements)

But so far you have argued against us and against Hipskind's quadrants.


Patti, your words sound hopeful to me - because Hipskind's key-words featured in the central hand inside her picture are already featured in my picture.

You can check it out below!

For example: Hipskind list the combination 'active' & 'conscious' for the upper radial quadrant... and those words are also featured for that zone in my picture.

Can you find those two words in my chart?

(Please, you are welcome let me know... and I hope you can also see that I am refering for those 2 words to the work of Dukes - see the golden color in the upper radial quadrant in my chart!)


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Judith10

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Thumb-27

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Post  Patti Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:12 am

I see the word conscious on the radial side, but I still see the word "inner" for radial and "outer" for ulnar. That is the main disagreement.
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Post  Patti Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:44 am

Sucom wrote:

Patti – I notice you have posted while I was writing this. I wouldn’t use the word ‘retreat’. It’s not a retreat to step back. Perhaps I have used the wrong word. I should instead have said, ‘step away’. I don’t think any one of us can or should attempt to alter someone else’s truth. And we can’t live by someone else’s truth, we can only live by our own truth. We must be open, always, but never abandon our own truth or what rings true in order to take on someone else’s truth. It just doesn’t work this way. Especially after watching The Language of the Divine Matrix again this morning on youtube where Gregg Braden tells us that we are participators in the world, rather than observers, each creating our own reality. I'm happy with my own truth, it works well for me, but I wouldn't wish to try to force it on another. We each draw to us those of like mind. And I'm more than happy for it to be this way.

I hope I’ve made my thoughts clear.

Sue, I understand what you're saying!

Have you read Bruce Lipton's book "The Biology of Belief"? I think you'd really like his way of thinking. I folded corners and highlighted paragraph after paragraph in his book!
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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:03 am

Patti wrote:I see the word conscious on the radial side, but I still see the word "inner" for radial and "outer" for ulnar. That is the main disagreement.

Aha... of course!

After I had described the quadrants via the works of Dukes, Fincham & Spier I should have no longer included any 'radial vs. ulnar' division in my picture... because that would lead to the 'contradictions' that I have pointed out to earlier in this discussion!

So, I have now cut-off the upper zone of the picture... and I have included Judith Hipskind's name in the chart for the quadrants (her name is only featured for the upper quadrants because of a lack of space to add more details for the lower quadrants!).

cheers Now I think the 2nd major 'obstacle' in this discussion has been solved... because I think Judith hipskind's quadrant approach is a clear signal that one should stop thinking in terms of the 'classic' ulnar- vs. radial division, because of the quadrants!

Thanks Patti! Thumbs up!


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Thumb-31

___________________________________________
sunny

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:19 am

Patti wrote:...

If you read from Eugene Scheimann, M.D.'s book "A Doctor's Guide to Better Health Through Palmistry" in the chapter on the thumb, you will see his views are different than Dukes, Fincham and Jones.

In another chapter you'll see his wide spread fingers for example relate to being non-conventional. His definition of a held-in thumb is the introvert, but the outwardly held thumb is not. Showing he recognized how the condition and positioning shifts the energy from outward to inward.


Patti, please specify... because I can not find any chapter of the thumb in Eugene Scheimann's book. Please specify the page (+ maybe you can also please your point?).

scratch

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Post  Sucom Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:58 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:I see the word conscious on the radial side, but I still see the word "inner" for radial and "outer" for ulnar. That is the main disagreement.

Aha... of course!

After I had described the quadrants via the works of Dukes, Fincham & Spier I should have no longer included any 'radial vs. ulnar' division in my picture... because that would lead to the 'contradictions' that I have pointed out to earlier in this discussion!

So, I have now cut-off the upper zone of the picture... and I have included Judith Hipskind's name in the chart for the quadrants (her name is only featured for the upper quadrants because of a lack of space to add more details for the lower quadrants!).

cheers Now I think the 2nd major 'obstacle' in this discussion has been solved... because I think Judith hipskind's quadrant approach is a clear signal that one should stop thinking in terms of the 'classic' ulnar- vs. radial division, because of the quadrants!

Thanks Patti! Thumbs up!


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Thumb-31

Ahhhhh, I'm liking it more! Thumb up

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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:14 pm

Sucom wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:I see the word conscious on the radial side, but I still see the word "inner" for radial and "outer" for ulnar. That is the main disagreement.

Aha... of course!

After I had described the quadrants via the works of Dukes, Fincham & Spier I should have no longer included any 'radial vs. ulnar' division in my picture... because that would lead to the 'contradictions' that I have pointed out to earlier in this discussion!

So, I have now cut-off the upper zone of the picture... and I have included Judith Hipskind's name in the chart for the quadrants (her name is only featured for the upper quadrants because of a lack of space to add more details for the lower quadrants!).

cheers Now I think the 2nd major 'obstacle' in this discussion has been solved... because I think Judith hipskind's quadrant approach is a clear signal that one should stop thinking in terms of the 'classic' ulnar- vs. radial division, because of the quadrants!

Thanks Patti! Thumbs up!


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Thumb-31

Ahhhhh, I'm liking it more! Thumb up

Thanks Sue!

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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:51 pm


One more problem solved:


Since the index finger is related to issues linked with oestrogen and the ring finger with issues linked with testosterone (Manning's major 2d:4d digit ratio findings)... then there can be not much doubt about whether which of those two fingers is linked with the mother and which finger is linked with the father.

Manning's findings appear to point out that the index finger is linked with the mother (+ typical female talents & problems e.g.: language related talents, empathy, neuroticism, schizophrenia, etc.) and the index finger links with father (+ typical male talents & problems e.g.: visuo-spatial talents, musical ability, aggression control problems, autism, etc.).

And thus... it appears that Holtzman's work includes some 'doubtfull' elements regarding how he perceives the index- and ring finger.

Because, while Holtzman links the 'Persona' (= taken from the psychoanalytic vocabulary) with the index finger... La Roux & Fincham have linked the 'Persona' with the ring finger, and Birla has linked 'Persona' with the sun line, and Spier has linked the 'Persona' with the fate line.

And because Holtzman also has incorrectly associated the ring finger pinky with 'the inner image of self & 'hidden syndromes' (he does not make any connection with communication)... I think I have already described multiple arguments to reject Holtzman's approach for the ring finger and to adopt La Roux's approach (knowing that Richard Unger also connects 'Persona' with the ring finger - one of Richards advanced students has informed me recently about this!).

In the new picture below the consequences of this evaluation have been processed!


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Thumb-32

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Post  Patti Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:49 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...

If you read from Eugene Scheimann, M.D.'s book "A Doctor's Guide to Better Health Through Palmistry" in the chapter on the thumb, you will see his views are different than Dukes, Fincham and Jones.

In another chapter you'll see his wide spread fingers for example relate to being non-conventional. His definition of a held-in thumb is the introvert, but the outwardly held thumb is not. Showing he recognized how the condition and positioning shifts the energy from outward to inward.




Patti, please specify... because I can not find any chapter of the thumb in Eugene Scheimann's book. Please specify the page (+ maybe you can also please your point?).

scratch

Starting at page 15 is the section about the thumb.

Somewhere in this thread you used someone's (Johnny's?) definition of a long index finger as relating to introversion to support the inner nature of the upper radial side (or finger section) of the hand.

Dr. Scheimann writes on page 25: "As we mentioned previously, the long index finger symbolizes dominance, pride, and a strong ego - in contrast, a short index finger shows a tendency toward dependency, weak ego, and a lack of pride."

Using the index finger's definition (regardless of which polarity you want to apply to long or short) in and of itself does not relate to only inner or to only outer.

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Post  Patti Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:55 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:I see the word conscious on the radial side, but I still see the word "inner" for radial and "outer" for ulnar. That is the main disagreement.

Aha... of course!

After I had described the quadrants via the works of Dukes, Fincham & Spier I should have no longer included any 'radial vs. ulnar' division in my picture... because that would lead to the 'contradictions' that I have pointed out to earlier in this discussion!

So, I have now cut-off the upper zone of the picture... and I have included Judith Hipskind's name in the chart for the quadrants (her name is only featured for the upper quadrants because of a lack of space to add more details for the lower quadrants!).

cheers Now I think the 2nd major 'obstacle' in this discussion has been solved... because I think Judith hipskind's quadrant approach is a clear signal that one should stop thinking in terms of the 'classic' ulnar- vs. radial division, because of the quadrants!

Thanks Patti! Thumbs up!


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Thumb-31

I whole heartedly disagree that one should stop thinking in ulnar and radial i.e. vertical division, and just work with quadrants. In my opinion, to do an accurate reading, you have to understand separately the vertical divisions and the horizontal divisions and then just like everything else in the hand...you combine these into the quadrants.
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Post  Patti Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:02 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
One more problem solved:


Since the index finger is related to issues linked with oestrogen and the ring finger with issues linked with testosterone (Manning's major 2d:4d digit ratio findings)... then there can be not much doubt about whether which of those two fingers is linked with the mother and which finger is linked with the father.

Manning's findings appear to point out that the index finger is linked with the mother (+ typical female talents & problems e.g.: language related talents, empathy, neuroticism, schizophrenia, etc.) and the index finger links with father (+ typical male talents & problems e.g.: visuo-spatial talents, musical ability, aggression control problems, autism, etc.).

And thus... it appears that Holtzman's work includes some 'doubtfull' elements regarding how he perceives the index- and ring finger.

Because, while Holtzman links the 'Persona' (= taken from the psychoanalytic vocabulary) with the index finger... La Roux & Fincham have linked the 'Persona' with the ring finger, and Birla has linked 'Persona' with the sun line, and Spier has linked the 'Persona' with the fate line.

And because Holtzman also has incorrectly associated the ring finger pinky with 'the inner image of self & 'hidden syndromes' (he does not make any connection with communication)... I think I have already described multiple arguments to reject Holtzman's approach for the ring finger and to adopt La Roux's approach (knowing that Richard Unger also connects 'Persona' with the ring finger - one of Richards advanced students has informed me recently about this!).

In the new picture below the consequences of this evaluation have been processed!


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Thumb-32

Just curious, when you say that Holtzman has incorrectly associated the fingers - I take it that his incorrectness means you are correct or the reverse if he is correct, then you are incorrect - which is the main basis for assuming he is incorrect... right?
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Post  Patti Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:06 pm

When you say Manning's research shows that the testosterone comes from the father and the estrogen comes from the mother - do you have other facts to support this viewpoint?

My thought is that both the testosterone and the estrogen comes from the mother as it is her body that is supplying the needed nutrients. The DNA within the developing fetus has the code or instructions for this balance of hormones. Where is the evidence that the father's genetic code supplies the testosterone and the mother's genetic code supplies the estrogen?
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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:07 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:I see the word conscious on the radial side, but I still see the word "inner" for radial and "outer" for ulnar. That is the main disagreement.

Aha... of course!

After I had described the quadrants via the works of Dukes, Fincham & Spier I should have no longer included any 'radial vs. ulnar' division in my picture... because that would lead to the 'contradictions' that I have pointed out to earlier in this discussion!

So, I have now cut-off the upper zone of the picture... and I have included Judith Hipskind's name in the chart for the quadrants (her name is only featured for the upper quadrants because of a lack of space to add more details for the lower quadrants!).

cheers Now I think the 2nd major 'obstacle' in this discussion has been solved... because I think Judith hipskind's quadrant approach is a clear signal that one should stop thinking in terms of the 'classic' ulnar- vs. radial division, because of the quadrants!

Thanks Patti! Thumbs up!


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Thumb-31

I whole heartedly disagree that one should stop thinking in ulnar and radial i.e. vertical division, and just work with quadrants. In my opinion, to do an accurate reading, you have to understand separately the vertical divisions and the horizontal divisions and then just like everything else in the hand...you combine these into the quadrants.

Patti, I hope you recognize that I made this recommendation in the perspective of the developments in this discussion.

What I meant to say it that the use of any vertical division should have lower priority than the use of quadrants... simply because the quadrants are actually the result of combining a vertcal + a horizontal division! For this reason the quadrant are specified for the 4 corners of the hand - while in any vertical division... the horizontal division is missing!

By the way, I think this observation is gets fully confirmed by your visual chart example from the work of Hipskind - who have explained visually where the 4 quadrant origin from (just like is explained in the work of Dukes).


wave

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:28 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
One more problem solved:


Since the index finger is related to issues linked with oestrogen and the ring finger with issues linked with testosterone (Manning's major 2d:4d digit ratio findings)... then there can be not much doubt about whether which of those two fingers is linked with the mother and which finger is linked with the father.

Manning's findings appear to point out that the index finger is linked with the mother (+ typical female talents & problems e.g.: language related talents, empathy, neuroticism, schizophrenia, etc.) and the index finger links with father (+ typical male talents & problems e.g.: visuo-spatial talents, musical ability, aggression control problems, autism, etc.).

And thus... it appears that Holtzman's work includes some 'doubtfull' elements regarding how he perceives the index- and ring finger.

Because, while Holtzman links the 'Persona' (= taken from the psychoanalytic vocabulary) with the index finger... La Roux & Fincham have linked the 'Persona' with the ring finger, and Birla has linked 'Persona' with the sun line, and Spier has linked the 'Persona' with the fate line.

And because Holtzman also has incorrectly associated the ring finger pinky with 'the inner image of self & 'hidden syndromes' (he does not make any connection with communication)... I think I have already described multiple arguments to reject Holtzman's approach for the ring finger and to adopt La Roux's approach (knowing that Richard Unger also connects 'Persona' with the ring finger - one of Richards advanced students has informed me recently about this!).

In the new picture below the consequences of this evaluation have been processed!


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 18 Thumb-32

Just curious, when you say that Holtzman has incorrectly associated the fingers - I take it that his incorrectness means you are correct or the reverse if he is correct, then you are incorrect - which is the main basis for assuming he is incorrect... right?

Correct! Very Happy


PS. Please be aware: Holtzman associates 'over-protective fathers' with a long index finger and he discussed homosexuality in the perspective of a short index finger (which he associates with a distant father); and on top of this maternal influeces get connected with the ring finger. Mannings research points in the reversed direction in the perspective of the hormones (in terms of the male-hormone testosterone linked with the ring finger, and the female-hormone estrogen linked with the index finger), and homosexuality studies have pointed out a 'mirror-effect' regarding the 2d:4d digit ratio of male- and female homosexuals... which Holtzman also has not spotted (I could even describe his perceptions regarding homosexuality being liked with the role of the father/mother as an outdated view).

Patti, I hope my choic now makes sense? (I expect that Fincham & Unger will support my analysis regarding this point - for the reasons that I have described in my earlier post)

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:35 pm

Patti wrote:When you say Manning's research shows that the testosterone comes from the father and the estrogen comes from the mother - do you have other facts to support this viewpoint?

My thought is that both the testosterone and the estrogen comes from the mother as it is her body that is supplying the needed nutrients. The DNA within the developing fetus has the code or instructions for this balance of hormones. Where is the evidence that the father's genetic code supplies the testosterone and the mother's genetic code supplies the estrogen?

Patti, I didn't write "testosterone comes from the father" - I only pointed out that is linked with the father (because testosterone is a 'male sex hormone').

If wasn't discussing the prenatal proces, of course I also support your view that both hormones play a role in the prenatal processes inside the mother. So, it appears to me that you kind of misread my point.

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Sucom Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:44 pm

What I meant to say it that the use of any vertical division should have lower priority than the use of quadrants... simply because the quadrants are actually the result of combining a vertcal + a horizontal division! For this reason the quadrant are specified for the 4 corners of the hand - while in any vertical division... the horizontal division is missing!

By the way, I think this observation is gets fully confirmed by your visual chart example from the work of Hipskind - who have explained visually where the 4 quadrant origin from (just like is explained in the work of Dukes).

Darn, just when I thought there was some improvement going on........

I'm with Patti all the way on this for several reasons.
1. I wholeheartedly disagree with taking everything that has ever been written about hand reading and replacing it with just ONE system, ie. the elemental system. This is FAR TOO LIMITING!
2. Every single aspect of the hands tells its own story. Bringing everything together in this way is FAR TOO LIMITING.
3. Make the vertical divisions of the palm and give them less priority over the quadrants??????? What????????
4. I don't base my hand reading on the elemental system. In fact, out of all the palmistry authors ever known, the number of those using the elemental system must be MINUTE in comparison.
5. I didn't realise until yesterday that you, also, Martijn, were attempting to create a chart based on the elemental system. Now I am reminded of the cybercafe, which I actually decided to leave because it tended to revolve far too much around just ONE system, based on what was, actually, a rather small handful of hand readers who had followed learnt with this man Dukes. A quick check on the internet does not offer a particularly encouraging feeling about Dukes, who is even classed as a liar on one page! If I recall, everyone turned their back on him! As it turned out, Duke's system was very different from any of the systems I had built my knowledge on and therefore I felt it was not for me.
6. While the elemental system may likely reach similar conclusions regarding the interpretation of various features of the hands, the method for reaching those conclusions is very different for a huge number of other hand readers who don't use the system, including myself.

Psychology is very young in relation to existence. The elemental system is also very young in relation to existence. Palmistry, on the other hand, is ancient in comparison and there is much to be learnt there without throwing out many of the theories that have existed over the years and bundling them up into what I see as limited elemental boxes.

Even considering the index finger as being water is not conclusive for me. This is just one aspect of the Jupiter finger, in my view and doesn't even allow for any blending of elements whatsoever. This just cannot be the case and I simply cannot accept it at this time.

Thoughts?


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