Modern Hand Reading Forum - Discover the language of your hands: palm reading & palmistry forum!
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Your opinion & share...
Latest topics
» Stewart Culin - Palmistry in China and Japan
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:53 am by Stijn

» Herbert Giles - Palmistry in China
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:20 am by Stijn

» Fate Destiny Line -
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:39 pm by Stefania

» life line forks
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:54 am by Stijn

» Astro-Palmistry files
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Sun May 30, 2021 1:17 pm by Stijn

» Nisha Ghai
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Wed May 05, 2021 5:10 pm by Martijn (admin)

» unique lines on Saturn mount
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:21 am by rashmi_rh

» Palm reading - 25/M right handed
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:48 am by andre123

» Relationship line?
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:13 pm by ketty

» Line from moon mount joining the fate line means
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:50 am by pravin kumar

» Vertical lines on Venus mount.
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:05 pm by pravin kumar

» Searching for professional case studies
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:42 pm by chindiaper

» Read my palm
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:04 am by jchenwing

» Please tell me about my career.
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:43 pm by pravin kumar

» Read my palm
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:39 pm by pravin kumar

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Who is online?
In total there are 26 users online :: 0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 26 Guests

None

[ View the whole list ]


Most users ever online was 302 on Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:06 pm
Moderators & partners

• Discover the Modern Hand Reading Forum partners:

Would you like to see your website listed?

Modern Hand Reading Forum Partners

Pointing finger: check this out!

Statistics
We have 5927 registered users
The newest registered user is steek

Our users have posted a total of 47440 messages in 4918 subjects
Top posting users this month
No user

Top posting users this week
No user

Recommendations

• The FREE hand reading services at the Modern Hand Reading Forum are being continued in 2019 with the assistance of Google adsense!


Pointing finger: check this out!



Google+
MAJOR HAND READING SYNONYMS
Palmistry, Palm Reading, Hand Analysis, Chirology & Chiromancy.

Learn how to read hands according the Modern Hand Reading paradigm & you can use this forum as your palm reading guide!

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

+12
Manfred
guypalm
Sucom
anithapalm
knox gillespie
Kiran.Katawa
Christopher Jones
Parender
Lynn
RishiRahul
Patti
Martijn (admin)
16 posters

Page 27 of 43 Previous  1 ... 15 ... 26, 27, 28 ... 35 ... 43  Next

Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:53 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
PS. Lynn, regarding my perceptions about the 5 elemental system... I think you should become more aware that ether (or chi) is actually described as the 'indescribable' element that has no manifestation on it's own. Therefore, even though it gets associated with the thumb... by principle this is not possible at all: because the ether element can not be 'recognized' itself, and thus not in the thumb either!

This also explians why it became necessary to associated the individual phalanges of the thumb with the other elements!

Martijn, please don't tell me that I should become "more aware" of how ether is described, given that I studied this system long before you did!
It's not just the individual phalanges of the thumb that are associated with the other elements, it is ALL aspects of the thumb ( and everything else on the hand! ) that come together in the ether digit before being expressed out into the world.
Maybe you need to become more aware that (as I already said) ether is the whole, the amalgamation of all elements. Both yin and yang combined.

I just came across a similar description in one of Gettings' books - that Ether was all the elements and the combination of yin and yang!
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:56 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, again, I know Getting's position... but I also know the origins of his position (I have described how Gettings position can be traced bach to an astrological point of view, etc.).

Anyone using language for the hands that includes names like Jupiter and Mercury share the same roots as Astrology. Many, if not most, of those you've included in your graphic use these labels.
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:06 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, again, I know Getting's position... but I also know the origins of his position (I have described how Gettings position can be traced bach to an astrological point of view, etc.).

Anyone using language for the hands that includes names like Jupiter and Mercury share the same roots as Astrology. Many, if not most, of those you've included in your graphic use these labels.

Patti, I did not refer to his use of the planetary archetypes at all. Do you actually have access to Gettings' "The Hand and the Horoscope"?

I have described how Gettings directly connects the thumb with the zodiac sign 'Aries' via Mars & the element Fire - see the chapter about finger & mounts (I have the Dutch version of his book, but he presents inside that chapter 3 pages where describes with colors the regions of the hand & the 12 signs of the Zodia... probably figures 153, 155 and 156).

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:13 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, again, I know Getting's position... but I also know the origins of his position (I have described how Gettings position can be traced bach to an astrological point of view, etc.).

Anyone using language for the hands that includes names like Jupiter and Mercury share the same roots as Astrology. Many, if not most, of those you've included in your graphic use these labels.

Patti, I did not refer to his use of the planetary archetypes at all. Do you actually have access to Gettings' "The Hand and the Horoscope"?

I have described how Gettings directly connects the thumb with the zodiac sign 'Aries' via Mars & the element Fire - see the chapter about finger & mounts (I have the Dutch version of his book, but he presents inside that chapter 3 pages where describes with colors the regions of the hand & the 12 signs of the Zodia... probably figures 153, 155 and 156).

He approaches his method systematically, so in the front of the book he goes through the basics. He brings the astrological associations as archetypal energies into the hand and overlays the chart onto the palms with his system. The topography that these archetypes play out their roles is nearly the same as the one I developed from Jung's Model of the Psyche.

If you were actually reading my posts, you'd know I have the book. I have 3 of Gettings' 4 books.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Gettin12
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:22 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
PS. Lynn, regarding my perceptions about the 5 elemental system... I think you should become more aware that ether (or chi) is actually described as the 'indescribable' element that has no manifestation on it's own. Therefore, even though it gets associated with the thumb... by principle this is not possible at all: because the ether element can not be 'recognized' itself, and thus not in the thumb either!

This also explians why it became necessary to associated the individual phalanges of the thumb with the other elements!

Martijn, please don't tell me that I should become "more aware" of how ether is described, given that I studied this system long before you did!
It's not just the individual phalanges of the thumb that are associated with the other elements, it is ALL aspects of the thumb ( and everything else on the hand! ) that come together in the ether digit before being expressed out into the world.
Maybe you need to become more aware that (as I already said) ether is the whole, the amalgamation of all elements. Both yin and yang combined.

Lynn, these are rethorics only. I think the starting point is that in your teachings the element ether is described as the 'indescribably' element - and therefore by principle ether can no be observed nor studied. And as a consequence, I think that any further specification regarding the hand can only have value from a philosophical point of view.

But the issue of inner vs. outer is not a philosphical issue!


Your thoughts sound rather defensive Lynn... and I still wonder: have you made any progress in understanding Johnny Fincham's vocabulary during this discussion?

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:26 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Your thoughts sound rather defensive Lynn...
oh I wondered if they sounded rather attacking Laughing

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
Lynn
Lynn

Posts : 2460
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:34 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:I know I said I was out of this discussion, but I'm finding it difficult to stay away! Laughing

Martijn (admin) wrote:Yes Patti, I am aware that Gettings associates the thumb with the outer world. Actually, the foundation of his work appears to be presented in his work 'The Hand and the Horscope' (1973), where he describes an astrological perspective (not based on the Yin-Yang philosophy).......

Patti was just pointing out that Gettings views thumb as outer side. Most other palmistry authors do not use the elements at all, yet many of them also view the thumb as outer side. No matter how many times it is pointed out, you choose to ignore them or disagree with them Martijn. That's fine. Nothing said in this discussion so far can make me believe that the thumb represents the inner person. I am still of the belief that the thumb is how we translate our energy/selves out into the world.

........But it is important here to notice that Gettings perceptions regarding the thumb are not based on the Yin-Yang philosophy.... so any comparison with Elemental Chirology is misleading in the sense that Gettings' can only traced back to (western) Astrology!

Martijn, I think your perceptions about the thumb and yin/yang cannot be compared to the 5-element view either, because in that system the thumb is the ether digit - the whole, the amalgamation of all elements. Both yin and yang combined.


Lynn, first of all: I hope you are aware... that I am very aware that there are many authors who associate the thumb with the outer world - I have even described this as a 'classic' (mis)perception in the field of hand reading, and the fundamental qualities associated with the individual thumb phalanges are the evidence (because: willing, thinking and feeling basically are cognitive qualities though feeling can be described as an 'experience' - all origin in the inner world!)

However, I have also pointed out that there is no fundamental evidence to associate the thumb with outer world. So, when discussing the works of authors who associate the thumb with the outer world... I think it is interesting to study the roots of their work - just like we have done regarding Elemental Chirology. And in the case of Gettings, in his early work he tried to do this by making the connection with astrology. By the way, it appears that in his later work Gettings dropped that connection with astrology... and instead he simply refers to the works of earlier authors who used this 'classic' perception - such as the reference to Benham's work in Patti's example.

However, Benham himself also never managed to present any evidence that the thumb relates to the outer world. He only makes associations regarding the role of the thumb in cultural phenomena - but making such associative observations proof nothing, because this is like first making an arbitrary choice... in order then to find arguments that 'appear' to confirm this choice.

And earlier in this discussion I have pointed out how any comparison between the long human thumb and the short primate thumb could actually likewisely be used to argue that the long thumb can be perceived as evidence for more developed inner life (and higher IQ, etc.).


PS. Lynn, regarding my perceptions about the 5 elemental system... I think you should become more aware that ether (or chi) is actually described as the 'indescribable' element that has no manifestation on it's own. Therefore, even though it gets associated with the thumb... by principle this is not possible at all: because the ether element can not be 'recognized' itself, and thus not in the thumb either!

This also explians why it became necessary to associated the individual phalanges of the thumb with the other elements!

Again, am I correct that you are still in the position in which you are not able to understand/recognize the origins of Johnny's vocabulary? (If yes, then it is quite obvious for me that this also explain why you can not understand my fundamental point regarding the thumb!)

I've only made it through half this post.... but Martijn you really need to get your facts straight. The astrology book (1973) was his next to last book (1974). His earlier work was not related to astrology at all.
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:34 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, these are rethorics only. I think the starting point is that in your teachings the element ether is described as the 'indescribably' element - and therefore by principle ether can no be observed nor studied. And as a consequence, I think that any further specification regarding the hand can only have value from a philosophical point of view.

But the issue of inner vs. outer is not a philosphical issue!


Your thoughts sound rather defensive Lynn... and I still wonder: have you made any progress in understanding Johnny Fincham's vocabulary during this discussion?

re "ether can no be observed nor studied". Correction, it can only be observed via the other 4 elements.

What exactly is it in Johnny's vocabulary that you seem so keen for me to understand? I think I understand Johnny's vocabulary, but in a different way than you understand it.

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
Lynn
Lynn

Posts : 2460
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:35 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, again, I know Getting's position... but I also know the origins of his position (I have described how Gettings position can be traced bach to an astrological point of view, etc.).

Anyone using language for the hands that includes names like Jupiter and Mercury share the same roots as Astrology. Many, if not most, of those you've included in your graphic use these labels.

Patti, I did not refer to his use of the planetary archetypes at all. Do you actually have access to Gettings' "The Hand and the Horoscope"?

I have described how Gettings directly connects the thumb with the zodiac sign 'Aries' via Mars & the element Fire - see the chapter about finger & mounts (I have the Dutch version of his book, but he presents inside that chapter 3 pages where describes with colors the regions of the hand & the 12 signs of the Zodia... probably figures 153, 155 and 156).

He approaches his method systematically, so in the front of the book he goes through the basics. He brings the astrological associations as archetypal energies into the hand and overlays the chart onto the palms with his system. The topography that these archetypes play out their roles is nearly the same as the one I developed from Jung's Model of the Psyche.

If you were actually reading my posts, you'd know I have the book. I have 3 of Gettings' 4 books.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Gettin12

Patti, at the first page in his first chapter about the hand Gettings refers to figure 157: the Zodiac. Again, the picture 153, 155 and 156 describe the basis of what you described in your picture.

What is your point regarding Gettings anyway?
What is your purpose to discuss his work?

(You're talking as if I suggested that there are no authors who associate the thumb with the outer world)

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:45 am

In the "Book of the Hand" Gettings writes: "Unfortunately, since the development of empiricism in the past 200 years, the ancient system has been rejected out of hand; one suspects that this happened because the full significance of the theory was not grasped by those who were responsible for its rejection."

This is happening here in this topic, too.

At another point Gettings is describing centuries old treatises on palmistry and notes that there are few descriptions, but many symbols. He said he found the medievalists quite fond of these alchemical symbols as though they triggered meaning from a deeper inner source. (probably Jung's Collective Unconscious)
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:52 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, again, I know Getting's position... but I also know the origins of his position (I have described how Gettings position can be traced bach to an astrological point of view, etc.).

Anyone using language for the hands that includes names like Jupiter and Mercury share the same roots as Astrology. Many, if not most, of those you've included in your graphic use these labels.

Patti, I did not refer to his use of the planetary archetypes at all. Do you actually have access to Gettings' "The Hand and the Horoscope"?

I have described how Gettings directly connects the thumb with the zodiac sign 'Aries' via Mars & the element Fire - see the chapter about finger & mounts (I have the Dutch version of his book, but he presents inside that chapter 3 pages where describes with colors the regions of the hand & the 12 signs of the Zodia... probably figures 153, 155 and 156).

He approaches his method systematically, so in the front of the book he goes through the basics. He brings the astrological associations as archetypal energies into the hand and overlays the chart onto the palms with his system. The topography that these archetypes play out their roles is nearly the same as the one I developed from Jung's Model of the Psyche.

If you were actually reading my posts, you'd know I have the book. I have 3 of Gettings' 4 books.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Gettin12

Patti, at the first page in his first chapter about the hand Gettings refers to figure 157: the Zodiac. Again, the picture 153, 155 and 156 describe the basis of what you described in your picture.

What is your point regarding Gettings anyway?
What is your purpose to discuss his work?

(You're talking as if I suggested that there are no authors who associate the thumb with the outer world)

I guess there really isn't much more to add here then. You seem only interested in choosing phrases and keywords from disassociated authors and putting them together like some kind of word soup. The phrases may match your thoughts, like a clipping from a magazine for a collage, but the topic the clipping came from has little to nothing to do with the collage - except for it's own individual contribution. The resulting collage offers only a narrow viewpoint of how you see the hand. You could add 100 authors and their adjectives - but as long as you choose words that suit your agenda it is a single-minded, and unsubstantiated collection. More a graphic piece of art expressing the inner workings of your mind than anything else. And in that sense, it's been worth going for the ride.

Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:53 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, these are rethorics only. I think the starting point is that in your teachings the element ether is described as the 'indescribably' element - and therefore by principle ether can no be observed nor studied. And as a consequence, I think that any further specification regarding the hand can only have value from a philosophical point of view.

But the issue of inner vs. outer is not a philosphical issue!


Your thoughts sound rather defensive Lynn... and I still wonder: have you made any progress in understanding Johnny Fincham's vocabulary during this discussion?

re "ether can no be observed nor studied". Correction, it can only be observed via the other 4 elements.

Lynn, if ether can only be studied via the other 4 elements... this actually confirms that it can not be studied directly, and since ether can not be studied directly one can by principle also never validate or test any theory about how ether can be recognized via the hand, etc.... and therefore it is a philosphical excersice only!






___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:04 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
And earlier in this discussion I have pointed out how any comparison between the long human thumb and the short primate thumb could actually likewisely be used to argue that the long thumb can be perceived as evidence for more developed inner life (and higher IQ, etc.).
[/color]

One could also very easily argue a different viewpoint. The primates make little changes in their outer environment, but rather adapt to it. Humans instead utilize the elements and change their environment. This then is absolute, empirical, and undeniable proof that the thumb is related to the external environment.

geek
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:07 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, if ether can only be studied via the other 4 elements... this actually confirms that it can not be studied directly, and since ether can not be studied directly one can by principle also never validate or test any theory about how ether can be recognized via the hand, etc.... and therefore it is a philosphical excersice only!
But the ether digit, the thumb, can be observed and studied via the other 4 elements. So I'm not sure what your point is?

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
Lynn
Lynn

Posts : 2460
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:11 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, these are rethorics only. I think the starting point is that in your teachings the element ether is described as the 'indescribably' element - and therefore by principle ether can no be observed nor studied. And as a consequence, I think that any further specification regarding the hand can only have value from a philosophical point of view.

But the issue of inner vs. outer is not a philosphical issue!


Your thoughts sound rather defensive Lynn... and I still wonder: have you made any progress in understanding Johnny Fincham's vocabulary during this discussion?
...

What exactly is it in Johnny's vocabulary that you seem so keen for me to understand? I think I understand Johnny's vocabulary, but in a different way than you understand it.

Come on Lynn... I am sure that you remember how I have demonstrated that Johnny's 'public world' (for the air palmar quadrant) directly origins from Dukes' description for the air + fire quadrant defining it as 'public'.

Correct?

And then I have described that in the perspective of those likewise guidelines presented by Fincham & Dukes... the two upper palmar quadrants get associated with 'public'.

Correct?

And as a consequence it simply does not make sense to associate the radial quadrants with the 'outer world'.

Correct?

But then you were able to point out to Christopher's guideline.

Correct?

And in response I have described how Christopher's guideline actually violates the Yin-Yang principles (which Christopher does respect in his treatment about the passive and active hand!).

Correct?


Now, much earlier in this discussion you described that you were not able to understand Johnny's vocabulary. Nor the origins of his vocabulary (later you acknowledged that you had forgotten Dukes' guidline).

Correct?

And then you tried to 'reason' your way about via your assocations regarding the leaning fingers & Johnny's 'Ivory Tower'.

Correct?

And then I pointed out that you actually used a different approach to understand Johnny's guideline than you usually do. And you acknowledged that, and ended up saying that without your alternative approach (via the leaning finger) you still could not make much sense regarding Johnny's word choiice (please allow me that I don't remember precisely which words you used... but that is sort of what happened).

Correct?

And later you never arrived at the point where you have reported that this discussion have changed your view anyhow.

Correct?


PS. Don't you think this is a nice summary of how things developed? And meanwhle I have also been able to explain how the Yin-Yang philosophy and the Ida-Pingala philosophy actually present a likewise perspective.

So, after I described the essense of your problem regarding Johnny's writings (which origins in Christopher's non-element guideline)... why do you think that I have not understood things properly?

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:12 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, if ether can only be studied via the other 4 elements... this actually confirms that it can not be studied directly, and since ether can not be studied directly one can by principle also never validate or test any theory about how ether can be recognized via the hand, etc.... and therefore it is a philosphical excersice only!
But the ether digit, the thumb, can be observed and studied via the other 4 elements. So I'm not sure what your point is?

I read somewhere earlier today, ether is in a way like a shadow.. The shadow is an effect and ether is said to be visible by, or as its effects.
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:22 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, if ether can only be studied via the other 4 elements... this actually confirms that it can not be studied directly, and since ether can not be studied directly one can by principle also never validate or test any theory about how ether can be recognized via the hand, etc.... and therefore it is a philosphical excersice only!
But the ether digit, the thumb, can be observed and studied via the other 4 elements. So I'm not sure what your point is?

Sorry Lynn, that sounds like pure theory to me... because ether can not be studied directly (nor it's associated qualites such as 'consciousness', 'compassion' and 'spirituality' - which are not tangible!): therefore this only has philosphical value.

To put it simple: one can never 'test' any theory related to the element ether. And therefore it does not make sense to me to starting refering to the element ether in the perspective of the thumb.


Lynn, please be aware: in your very first post you acknowledged that you could identify with the 'inner essence' part of the title of this topic.

(And I was happy to see you confirm that aspect of my title... though I am not sure that I expressed this, sorry for not letting you know)

To put it simple here again: since ether is associated with 'consciousness' (+ compassion & spirituality) it should not be very hard for you to recognize that it could make sense to associate the thumb (ether) with the inner world.

Because: 'consciousness', 'compassion' and 'spirituality' basically all relate to the inner-world qualities.

Now.... I ask you one again: it this correct?

(Or would you prefer to describe 'consciousness', 'compassion' and 'spirituality' all as qualities that relate to the outer world???????????)


flower


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:39 am; edited 1 time in total

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:38 am

Patti wrote:
I've only made it through half this post.... but Martijn you really need to get your facts straight. The astrology book (1973) was his next to last book (1974). His earlier work was not related to astrology at all.

Okay Patti, yes I now see that is correct. The book of the hand was probably Gettings first book (1965)... but there he basically presents an overview of what earlier authors have written.

So, the talk about the Zodiac is Gettings' later attempt to innovate. Anyway, it does show how Gettings is trying to explain things via the Zodiac and the elments (but he also does it in a way where he is saying that the older theory does not work... because why else would one want to re-name finger???)

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:56 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
I've only made it through half this post.... but Martijn you really need to get your facts straight. The astrology book (1973) was his next to last book (1974). His earlier work was not related to astrology at all.

Okay Patti, yes I now see that is correct. The book of the hand was probably Gettings first book (1965)... but there he basically presents an overview of what earlier authors have written.

So, the talk about the Zodiac is Gettings' later attempt to innovate. Anyway, it does show how Gettings is trying to explain things via the Zodiac and the elments (but he also does it in a way where he is saying that the older theory does not work... because why else would one want to re-name finger???)

Maybe for the same reasons Johnny renamed parts of the hand. To put out into the world their own viewpoint.
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:39 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, again, I know Getting's position... but I also know the origins of his position (I have described how Gettings position can be traced bach to an astrological point of view, etc.).

Anyone using language for the hands that includes names like Jupiter and Mercury share the same roots as Astrology. Many, if not most, of those you've included in your graphic use these labels.

Patti, I did not refer to his use of the planetary archetypes at all. Do you actually have access to Gettings' "The Hand and the Horoscope"?

I have described how Gettings directly connects the thumb with the zodiac sign 'Aries' via Mars & the element Fire - see the chapter about finger & mounts (I have the Dutch version of his book, but he presents inside that chapter 3 pages where describes with colors the regions of the hand & the 12 signs of the Zodia... probably figures 153, 155 and 156).

He approaches his method systematically, so in the front of the book he goes through the basics. He brings the astrological associations as archetypal energies into the hand and overlays the chart onto the palms with his system. The topography that these archetypes play out their roles is nearly the same as the one I developed from Jung's Model of the Psyche.

If you were actually reading my posts, you'd know I have the book. I have 3 of Gettings' 4 books.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Gettin12

Patti, at the first page in his first chapter about the hand Gettings refers to figure 157: the Zodiac. Again, the picture 153, 155 and 156 describe the basis of what you described in your picture.

What is your point regarding Gettings anyway?
What is your purpose to discuss his work?

(You're talking as if I suggested that there are no authors who associate the thumb with the outer world)

He explains in the text immediately before figure 153 and continued after the figures named, that he developed this method for Astropalmistry. He explains why he chose to label the ring finger with mars.

Many modern writers on palmistry nearly quote Gettings in the text in their own books. Lori Reid uses this same system of a vertical division, quadrants and the 3 worlds, but doesn't mention authors or have a bibliography in the books of hers that I have. Judith Hipskind mentions Gettings as suggested reading.

When you read from his "Book of the Hand" you can tell he isn't just passing forward older work such as Benham. It shows through that he understands the hands. I reread what he wrote about Jimmy Savile (now that we know what wasn't publicly known) and he slyly pointed out the Trickster in Savile's personality. He slipped in, in a way Jimmy would miss, a hint that he saw through the facade. He called him a "complete confidence trickster".
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:33 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
I've only made it through half this post.... but Martijn you really need to get your facts straight. The astrology book (1973) was his next to last book (1974). His earlier work was not related to astrology at all.

Okay Patti, yes I now see that is correct. The book of the hand was probably Gettings first book (1965)... but there he basically presents an overview of what earlier authors have written.

So, the talk about the Zodiac is Gettings' later attempt to innovate. Anyway, it does show how Gettings is trying to explain things via the Zodiac and the elments (but he also does it in a way where he is saying that the older theory does not work... because why else would one want to re-name finger???)

Maybe for the same reasons Johnny renamed parts of the hand. To put out into the world their own viewpoint.

Johnny clearly re-named the fingers + palmar zones based on principles that were already described by Dukes, because Dukes wrote: air + fire = public

- The consequence is that the palmar air quadrant is public + it is positioned below two public fingers (air finger + fire finger): therefore it makes sense that Johnny called it the public stage (or world stage).

- The palmar fire quadrant is positioned below two 'private' fingers (earth finger + water finger), and therefore it makes sense to associate that quadrant with less public in terms of the ivory tower.


Gettings innovated system is... weird & especially very confusing regarding his use of the elements - I don't have any other words for it. Because Gettings associates:

- the ring finger with Mars (fire), but he also associates the ring finger with scorpio = water; and he associates the thumb with Mars (fire) + aries (fire); so the ring finger gets connected with fire (mars) + water (scorpio).

- The upper palmar zone with Venus + Sun: and he connects both with Libra = air; but he also associates the thenar with Venus + taurus (earth), and he does not connect the sun with any finger at all. So the sun is only connected with the element... air!

His approach is not only weird... it's totally weird: connecting the sun with air appears an obvious fundamental mistake! (And I am sure that I would find more mistakes if I start studying more details inside his 'innovation')


Therefore I think Gettings failed to re-write the fundamentals of hand reading with astrology... because I have never seen his system adopted by anyone! Thumb down

So, even while Gettings described the elemental hand shapes... he was not even aware of the inconsistencies that he created regarding the ring finger and the upper palmar zone in terms of the elements.

This also indicates that he never was able to substantiate any aspect of his association regarding the thumb with the outer world: it was all based on the works of earlier authors.

I think I have said enough about Gettings 'innovations'.


PS. Patti, thank you for correcting me: Gettings presented his 'innovations' in his later work which indicates that he got confronted with some very unsatisfying results regarding the classic approach. But his innovative result was for sure not an improvement at all.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:03 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
And earlier in this discussion I have pointed out how any comparison between the long human thumb and the short primate thumb could actually likewisely be used to argue that the long thumb can be perceived as evidence for more developed inner life (and higher IQ, etc.).
[/color]

One could also very easily argue a different viewpoint. The primates make little changes in their outer environment, but rather adapt to it. Humans instead utilize the elements and change their environment. This then is absolute, empirical, and undeniable proof that the thumb is related to the external environment.

geek

Patti, I agree that one can dispute things. But your reasoning does not include any perspective.

Because the ability to change the outer world.... by principle starts with a more developed inner world!

For example: this also explains why retarded people often are not able to make such changes regarding the outside world: their are not able to get enough grip on their inner world in order to create the world that they would like to live in.


So, my point is: a hand with a thumb needs the fingers to actually create the desired changes in the outer world! And therefore one can not simply associate the thumb directly with the outer world.

(Again, the individual thumb phalanges represent 'inner qualities': thinking, feeling and willing... and in the elemental system we can see how the thumb is recognized as the ether-finger, which gets associated with e.g. 'consciousness', 'compassion' & 'spirituality' ... pure inner qualities!)

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:21 pm

Martijn, I don't think anyone agrees with your idea that the thumb is the main representation of the Inner World. You obviously agree with yourself and think you have found support in your collection of words, but they are a subjective collection of adjectives made with subjective associations.

Of course the thumb, just like the whole hand represents the inner self and the outer self - just to different degrees at any given moment. It's dynamic and energetic. Perhaps you have just noticed this inner polarity of the outer self and have lost the ability to see the duality and balance?

Regarding Gettings and his use of astrology - I have yet to see any consistent agreement between the two systems with anyone that tries to apply one to the other. Yet palmistry and astrology are obviously sister sciences and both can accurately, when properly used, describe the nature of a person.
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:03 pm

Patti wrote:Martijn, I don't think anyone agrees with your idea that the thumb is the main representation of the Inner World. You obviously agree with yourself and think you have found support in your collection of words, but they are a subjective collection of adjectives made with subjective associations.

Of course the thumb, just like the whole hand represents the inner self and the outer self - just to different degrees at any given moment. It's dynamic and energetic. Perhaps you have just noticed this inner polarity of the outer self and have lost the ability to see the duality and balance?

Regarding Gettings and his use of astrology - I have yet to see any consistent agreement between the two systems with anyone that tries to apply one to the other. Yet palmistry and astrology are obviously sister sciences and both can accurately, when properly used, describe the nature of a person.

Patti, this is only your perception (.. by the way, your first sentence sounds to me as if you have forgotten all points that I have made regarding how the thumb is linked with the inner essence of man).

1 - I have refered to Sprong who literally describes thumb as: "The thumb represents the soul or inner man." [Translated from the Dutch: "De duim vertegenwoordigt de ziel of de innerlijke mens."]

2 - I have refered to the fact that Birla uses exactly the same perspective - based on the Vedic principles Ida (inner world) & Pingala (outer world); so Birla also recognized the thumb to representation of the inner world.

3 - And... I have described how the works of Dukes, Fincham & Hirsch include principles which indicate that the pinky is more connected to the outer world (+ the thumb more inner world).

4 - I have also described how Yin (private) & Yang (public) represent similar principles as the Vedic principles Ida & Pingala, and how applying those principles to the hand shows how the thumb is a typical (anatomic) manifestation of Yin - and thus the inner world.

5 - I have described how the thumb gets associated with the tridinity: willing, thinking & feeling (and I have described how these 3 qualities get assocated in Christianity, Anthroposophy & Esotery with the soul - or the inner essence of man).


So Patti, I consider your statement above as an example of how you perceive things entirely regarding your own believes. Because your statement clearly contradicts point 1, 2 and 3 that I have made above.

There is plenty of support in the field of hand reading for the idea that the thumb represents the inner essence of man.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:14 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Martijn, I don't think anyone agrees with your idea that the thumb is the main representation of the Inner World. You obviously agree with yourself and think you have found support in your collection of words, but they are a subjective collection of adjectives made with subjective associations.

Of course the thumb, just like the whole hand represents the inner self and the outer self - just to different degrees at any given moment. It's dynamic and energetic. Perhaps you have just noticed this inner polarity of the outer self and have lost the ability to see the duality and balance?

Regarding Gettings and his use of astrology - I have yet to see any consistent agreement between the two systems with anyone that tries to apply one to the other. Yet palmistry and astrology are obviously sister sciences and both can accurately, when properly used, describe the nature of a person.

Patti, this is only your perception (.. by the way, your first sentence sounds to me as if you have forgotten all points that I have made regarding how the thumb is linked with the inner essence of man).

1 - I have refered to Sprong who literally describes thumb as: "The thumb represents the soul or inner man." [Translated from the Dutch: "De duim vertegenwoordigt de ziel of de innerlijke mens."]

2 - I have refered to the fact that Birla uses exactly the same perspective - based on the Vedic principles Ida (inner world) & Pingala (outer world); so Birla also recognized the thumb to representation of the inner world.

3 - And... I have described how the works of Dukes, Fincham & Hirsch include principles which indicate that the pinky is more connected to the outer world (+ the thumb more inner world).

4 - I have also described how Yin (private) & Yang (public) represent similar principles as the Vedic principles Ida & Pingala, and how applying those principles to the hand shows how the thumb is a typical (anatomic) manifestation of Yin - and thus the inner world.

5 - I have described how the thumb gets associated with the tridinity: willing, thinking & feeling (and I have described how these 3 qualities get assocated in Christianity, Anthroposophy & Esotery with the soul - or the inner essence of man).


So Patti, I consider your statement above as an example of how you perceive things entirely regarding your own believes. Because your statement clearly contradicts point 1, 2 and 3 that I have made above.

There is plenty of support in the field of hand reading for the idea that the thumb represents the inner essence of man.

1. Sprong probably agrees with you.
2. And Sprong is a student of Birla and you are a student of Sprong. And I thought your research he hired you to do disproved much of Sprong's work?
3. All the digits are related to the conscious public world - nothing new here except for the switching of vertical division assignments.
4. The thumb is universally recognized as a phallic symbol. Thumbs up!
from Walt Whitman's "Spontaneous Me":
Arms and hands of love, lips of love, phallic thumb of love, breasts of love, bellies press'd and glued together with love,
5. Pure association.
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 27 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 27 of 43 Previous  1 ... 15 ... 26, 27, 28 ... 35 ... 43  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum