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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 28 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:01 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Martijn, I don't think anyone agrees with your idea that the thumb is the main representation of the Inner World. You obviously agree with yourself and think you have found support in your collection of words, but they are a subjective collection of adjectives made with subjective associations.

Of course the thumb, just like the whole hand represents the inner self and the outer self - just to different degrees at any given moment. It's dynamic and energetic. Perhaps you have just noticed this inner polarity of the outer self and have lost the ability to see the duality and balance?

Regarding Gettings and his use of astrology - I have yet to see any consistent agreement between the two systems with anyone that tries to apply one to the other. Yet palmistry and astrology are obviously sister sciences and both can accurately, when properly used, describe the nature of a person.

Patti, this is only your perception (.. by the way, your first sentence sounds to me as if you have forgotten all points that I have made regarding how the thumb is linked with the inner essence of man).

1 - I have refered to Sprong who literally describes thumb as: "The thumb represents the soul or inner man." [Translated from the Dutch: "De duim vertegenwoordigt de ziel of de innerlijke mens."]

2 - I have refered to the fact that Birla uses exactly the same perspective - based on the Vedic principles Ida (inner world) & Pingala (outer world); so Birla also recognized the thumb to representation of the inner world.

3 - And... I have described how the works of Dukes, Fincham & Hirsch include principles which indicate that the pinky is more connected to the outer world (+ the thumb more inner world).

4 - I have also described how Yin (private) & Yang (public) represent similar principles as the Vedic principles Ida & Pingala, and how applying those principles to the hand shows how the thumb is a typical (anatomic) manifestation of Yin - and thus the inner world.

5 - I have described how the thumb gets associated with the tridinity: willing, thinking & feeling (and I have described how these 3 qualities get assocated in Christianity, Anthroposophy & Esotery with the soul - or the inner essence of man).


So Patti, I consider your statement above as an example of how you perceive things entirely regarding your own believes. Because your statement clearly contradicts point 1, 2 and 3 that I have made above.

There is plenty of support in the field of hand reading for the idea that the thumb represents the inner essence of man.

1. Sprong probably agrees with you.
2. And Sprong is a student of Birla and you are a student of Sprong. And I thought your research he hired you to do disproved much of Sprong's work?
3. All the digits are related to the conscious public world - nothing new here except for the switching of vertical division assignments.
4. The thumb is universally recognized as a phallic symbol. Thumbs up!
from Walt Whitman's "Spontaneous Me":
Arms and hands of love, lips of love, phallic thumb of love, breasts of love, bellies press'd and glued together with love,
5. Pure association.

Patti, truth finding have always been the only objective of my research activities.

Regarding your point 5: not true, my analysis earlier in this discussion has been featured with sources.


By the way, I have no idea what you have in mind regarding your point 4 in the perspective of this discussion... but apparently you are not aware that likewise associations have been made regarding the pinky finger.


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 28 Rta-pinky.thumbnail

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Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:20 pm

cheers

Ed Campbell writes in 'The Encyclopedia of Palmistry' (p.3):

"The English palmist, Terrence Dukes, attributes the development of Chinese hand analysis to the Indian Vedic schools modified by Buddhist beliefs. He acknowledges that there was also a native form of physiognomy, which he calls Jen Hsiang, that includes a primitive form of hand analysis. Another form that developed was called Shou Hsiang. Shou indicates hand. This was used by monks largely in a medical setting. ..."


Unfortunately, Ed didn't include a page number but Ed does refer to Dukes' book; I have not yet found the reference by Dukes to the Vedic schools in his writings (but I will continue my search for more details).

Edit: I only have a copy of Dukes' work until the first page of the last chapter named: 'The Wu Hsing school history and the cheirological society'. Maybe Dukes reference is made in the continuation of his last chapter? (Because I can't find in other chapters, though I also have no access to section 'acknowledgements')


Anyway, Dukes reference to the Vedic schools as the roots of Chinese hand analysis appears to confirm my earlier observation regarding the parallel between Vedic Palmistry & Elemental Chirology (regarding that the Ida-Pingala principle looks very similar as the Yin-Yang principle)!

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Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:52 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote: cheers

Ed Campbell writes in 'The Encyclopedia of Palmistry' (p.3):

"The English palmist, Terrence Dukes, attributes the development of Chinese hand analysis to the Indian Vedic schools modified by Buddhist beliefs. He acknowledges that there was also a native form of physiognomy, which he calls Jen Hsiang, that includes a primitive form of hand analysis. Another form that developed was called Shou Hsiang. Shou indicates hand. This was used by monks largely in a medical setting. ..."


Unfortunately, Ed didn't include a page number but Ed does refer to Dukes' book; I have not yet found the reference by Dukes to the Vedic schools in his writings (but I will continue my search for more details).

Edit: I only have a copy of Dukes' work until the first page of the last chapter named: 'The Wu Hsing school history and the cheirological society'. Maybe Dukes reference is made in the continuation of his last chapter? (Because I can't find in other chapters, though I also have no access to section 'acknowledgements')


Anyway, Dukes reference to the Vedic schools as the roots of Chinese hand analysis appears to confirm my earlier observation regarding the parallel between Vedic Palmistry & Elemental Chirology (regarding that the Ida-Pingala principle looks very similar as the Yin-Yang principle)!

http://www.cheirology.net/cheirologicalsociety/csorigins.htm
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Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:55 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote: cheers

Ed Campbell writes in 'The Encyclopedia of Palmistry' (p.3):

"The English palmist, Terrence Dukes, attributes the development of Chinese hand analysis to the Indian Vedic schools modified by Buddhist beliefs. He acknowledges that there was also a native form of physiognomy, which he calls Jen Hsiang, that includes a primitive form of hand analysis. Another form that developed was called Shou Hsiang. Shou indicates hand. This was used by monks largely in a medical setting. ..."


Unfortunately, Ed didn't include a page number but Ed does refer to Dukes' book; I have not yet found the reference by Dukes to the Vedic schools in his writings (but I will continue my search for more details).

Edit: I only have a copy of Dukes' work until the first page of the last chapter named: 'The Wu Hsing school history and the cheirological society'. Maybe Dukes reference is made in the continuation of his last chapter? (Because I can't find in other chapters, though I also have no access to section 'acknowledgements')


Anyway, Dukes reference to the Vedic schools as the roots of Chinese hand analysis appears to confirm my earlier observation regarding the parallel between Vedic Palmistry & Elemental Chirology (regarding that the Ida-Pingala principle looks very similar as the Yin-Yang principle)!

http://www.cheirology.net/cheirologicalsociety/csorigins.htm

Thanks Patti, I find this passage interesting:

"The school I studied in (within Japan and whilst living as a Buddhist monk) i think must have come from India as its based on the four elements (a la Gettings)" (Letter from T Dukes 5th November 1976)"

It appears that Dukes assumes that the origins of the school that he studied must have come from India, but obviously he's not sure of the facts regarding the historical devleopments.

Anyway, it confirms that Dukes recognized links between his method and the method used by Gettings.

I think Dukes' observation is quite comparable with my observation regarding the parallel between the philosophic principles used in the Vedic Palmistry (Ida & Pingala) and the Elemental Chirology (Yin & Yang).


Thanks!

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Post  Lynn Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:19 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:[color=darkred]Thanks Patti, I find this passage interesting:

"The school I studied in (within Japan and whilst living as a Buddhist monk) i think must have come from India as its based on the four elements (a la Gettings)" (Letter from T Dukes 5th November 1976)"

It appears that Dukes assumes that the origins of the school that he studied must have come from India, but obviously he's not sure of the facts regarding the historical devleopments.

Thanks!

He's not sure of the facts because Dukes never studied or lived as a Buddhist monk in Japan. It was a lie.

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Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:02 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:[color=darkred]Thanks Patti, I find this passage interesting:

"The school I studied in (within Japan and whilst living as a Buddhist monk) i think must have come from India as its based on the four elements (a la Gettings)" (Letter from T Dukes 5th November 1976)"

It appears that Dukes assumes that the origins of the school that he studied must have come from India, but obviously he's not sure of the facts regarding the historical devleopments.

Thanks!

He's not sure of the facts because Dukes never studied or lived as a Buddhist monk in Japan. It was a lie.

Lynn, in Dukes bibliography (p.329) he refers to a work titled:

"Chou-I (the I Ching). Wen and others, circa 12th century B.C. This work contains records oft the earliest Chinese adaptations of the Indian elements and precedes theTaoist system of wood, metal, earth, fire and water."

Do you think that Dukes reference to the I-Ching is a lie as well?

(Beyond Dukes lies about his personal life, his writings & illustrations do show that he has studied Chinese philosophy; by the way, I do agree that Dukes guidelines regarding hand shapes could very well be based on Gettings writings. But let's be aware, in those days it was not common at all to refer to each others works. For example: Gettings writes about the 5 Chinese hand types... but does he present any source for his writings about that topic? - I think the answer is a simple no... and who knows, maybe Dukes had access to the same source used by Gettings? Do you know if Dukes & Gettings ever met each other???)


PS. This source reports:

"The Chinese literature of the third century is full of geographic and mythological elements derived from India."

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/connections/Vedic-roots-China-and-Japan.php

The Chinese are today known as the worlds best 'copycats'; so Dukes reference could very well be an authentic reference to the fact that the origins of the Chinese culture have been linked with India.

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Post  Martijn (admin) Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:18 pm


PS. The elements earth, water, fire and air can be traced back to the Indian Pali literature (which are being described to have been written in Sri Lanka 29 BCE, approximately four hundred and fifty four years after the death of the Buddha):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element#Classical_elements_in_India

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Post  Lynn Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:35 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:and who knows, maybe Dukes had access to the same source used by Gettings? Do you know if Dukes & Gettings ever met each other???)
I don't know if Dukes and Gettings ever met, but it is thought that Dukes based some of his ideas on Gettings' work.

http://www.cheirology.net/cheirologicalsociety/csorigins.htm
" "The school I studied in (within Japan and whilst living as a Buddhist monk) i think must have come from India as its based on the four elements (a la Gettings)" (Letter from T Dukes 5th November 1976)

This assertion is interesting in as much as Dukes refers to only the "four elements", just as Gettings does, when the Indian/Buddhist tradition he claims to have inherited always refers to five elements - Earth, Water, Fire, Air and Ether. Given the symbolic importance of the element Ether as a significator of the spiritual dimension to life this is a very interesting omission to make; it does not add confidence that Dukes was in receipt of any esoteric Buddhist tradition of hand analysis at all.

Rather, it tends to confirm the suspicion that Dukes' first came across the elemental system of hand analysis from reading Fred Gettings' book: "The Book of the Hand" (Hamlyn 1965). Gettings was the first western author to utilise the four elements as a means of classifying the hands' overall shape - at a time when Dukes himself was only nineteen years of age. On being questioned about the similarities between the ideas in Gettings' book and those of Dukes' Cheirological Society, Dukes has said (on several occasions) that Gettings copied these ideas from him - more specifically, Gettings' secretary came to classes run by the Cheirological Society and passed these ideas on to Gettings! However, by several of Dukes' own acounts, the activities of the society had dwindled during the 1960's and it was necessary for him to re-found (found, actually) the Cheirological Society in 1976.

Most interesting of all is that 1965 is the year that Dukes claims he went to Okinawa/Japan to 'discover' an esoteric tradition of handreading based on the four elements which, despite its absolute secrecy, Fred Gettings had already described, written about and based a whole system of hand analysis upon! It is hard to imagine the secretary of Fred Gettings taking notes at classes given by a non-active society by a teenage Terence Dukes in a tradition of elemental analysis which, by his own admission, he had not yet even learnt.
"

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Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:54 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:


By the way, I have no idea what you have in mind regarding your point 4 in the perspective of this discussion... but apparently you are not aware that likewise associations have been made regarding the pinky finger.[/color]

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 28 Rta-pinky.thumbnail

My first impression looking at this image and the text is the projection of the shadow side of Mercury, the Trickster. A crooked little finger usually signals dishonesty. So a very 'small' person - or belittled.
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Post  Patti Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:55 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:and who knows, maybe Dukes had access to the same source used by Gettings? Do you know if Dukes & Gettings ever met each other???)
I don't know if Dukes and Gettings ever met, but it is thought that Dukes based some of his ideas on Gettings' work.

http://www.cheirology.net/cheirologicalsociety/csorigins.htm
" "The school I studied in (within Japan and whilst living as a Buddhist monk) i think must have come from India as its based on the four elements (a la Gettings)" (Letter from T Dukes 5th November 1976)

This assertion is interesting in as much as Dukes refers to only the "four elements", just as Gettings does, when the Indian/Buddhist tradition he claims to have inherited always refers to five elements - Earth, Water, Fire, Air and Ether. Given the symbolic importance of the element Ether as a significator of the spiritual dimension to life this is a very interesting omission to make; it does not add confidence that Dukes was in receipt of any esoteric Buddhist tradition of hand analysis at all.

Rather, it tends to confirm the suspicion that Dukes' first came across the elemental system of hand analysis from reading Fred Gettings' book: "The Book of the Hand" (Hamlyn 1965). Gettings was the first western author to utilise the four elements as a means of classifying the hands' overall shape - at a time when Dukes himself was only nineteen years of age. On being questioned about the similarities between the ideas in Gettings' book and those of Dukes' Cheirological Society, Dukes has said (on several occasions) that Gettings copied these ideas from him - more specifically, Gettings' secretary came to classes run by the Cheirological Society and passed these ideas on to Gettings! However, by several of Dukes' own acounts, the activities of the society had dwindled during the 1960's and it was necessary for him to re-found (found, actually) the Cheirological Society in 1976.

Most interesting of all is that 1965 is the year that Dukes claims he went to Okinawa/Japan to 'discover' an esoteric tradition of handreading based on the four elements which, despite its absolute secrecy, Fred Gettings had already described, written about and based a whole system of hand analysis upon! It is hard to imagine the secretary of Fred Gettings taking notes at classes given by a non-active society by a teenage Terence Dukes in a tradition of elemental analysis which, by his own admission, he had not yet even learnt.
"

Dukes isn't very credible!
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Post  Lynn Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:09 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:


By the way, I have no idea what you have in mind regarding your point 4 in the perspective of this discussion... but apparently you are not aware that likewise associations have been made regarding the pinky finger.[/color]

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 28 Rta-pinky.thumbnail

My first impression looking at this image and the text is the projection of the shadow side of Mercury, the Trickster. A crooked little finger usually signals dishonesty. So a very 'small' person - or belittled.

Patti isn't that gesture used in US? Here it means the man has a small penis!

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Post  Patti Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:17 am

rolling on the floor No! I've never seen it used before.
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Post  Lynn Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:23 am

Patti wrote: rolling on the floor No! I've never seen it used before.
still you were right with "a very 'small' person - or belittled." Wink

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Post  Patti Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:26 am

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote: rolling on the floor No! I've never seen it used before.
still you were right with "a very 'small' person - or belittled." Wink

lol! I must have tapped into the feminine collective unconscious!
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Post  Martijn (admin) Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:18 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:and who knows, maybe Dukes had access to the same source used by Gettings? Do you know if Dukes & Gettings ever met each other???)
I don't know if Dukes and Gettings ever met, but it is thought that Dukes based some of his ideas on Gettings' work.
...

Thanks Lynn,

Things may be more complex than they sometimes appear to be at first sight. Because I have just found a journal from 1927 giving some short descriptions for the metallic palm (square), wooden palm (thin & long), water palm (round), fire palm (pointed and red), earth palm (thick and heavy), see HERE and HERE.

But Gettings describes those 5 chinese hand shapes as: metallic hand (slender and flexible - venusian), wooden hand (flat, long, thin & knuckled - jupiterian), water hand (thick, soft, smooth - mercurian), fire hand (red and bony), and earth hand (thick and rounded - saturnian).

So, it's a bit weird to see that the traditional Chinese elements are:

Earth (thumb) - Wood (index finger) - Fire (middle finger) - Metal (ring finger) - Water (pinky)

However, in Japanese & Tibitan Buddhisme the elements are:

Eather/Void (thumb) - Water (index finger) - Earth (middle finger) - Fire (ring finger) - Air (pink)

This may look 'strange' at first sight, but the Chinese elements should not be associated with the actual physical substance - they only are meant to describe the 'proces and change', more details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Xing

(We have once talked aboiut this before)

The five elements are usually used to describe the state in nature:

- Wood/Spring: a period of growth, which generates abundant wood and vitality
- Fire/Summer: a period of swellness, flowering, which overbrews with fire and energy
- Earth: the in-between transitional seasonal periods, or a separate 'season' known as
Late Summer or Long Summer - in the latter case associated with leveling and dampening (moderation) and fruition
- Metal/Autumn: a period of harvesting and collecting
- Water/Winter: a period of retreat, where stillness and storage pervades"


scratch Well... so far I can not understand anything of the logics regarding how the traditional chinese elements got connected with the fingers.... untill I noticed how they do get connected in this way with the planets:

Wood = jupiter = index finger = birth
Fire = mars = middle finger = youth
Earth = saturn = thumb = adulthood
Metal = venus = ring finger = old age
Water = mercury = little finger = death

scratch ... Well, I think I have to conclude that the logic of the Chinese is quite a mystery to me regarding the fingers.

Fortunately, Dukes nor Gettings never really worked with the Chinese elements!
I think I better give up trying to understand if there is a connection between the traditional chinese elements and the elements according Elemental Chirology.

( lol! rolling on the floor )

PS. Ed Campbell reports that Gettings or Benham also described a 'Chinese Gold Type' hand... but appears to be missing in both works.

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Patti Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:40 am

Gettings mentioned that the oldest work in palmistry didn't have much text but mostly symbols. Perhaps you may want to do a wiki on Alchemy. Plato first and then Aristotle.

Or this may help:

http://elements.spiritalchemy.com/t3-Ch3.html
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Post  Martijn (admin) Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:32 am

Patti wrote:Gettings mentioned that the oldest work in palmistry didn't have much text but mostly symbols. Perhaps you may want to do a wiki on Alchemy. Plato first and then Aristotle.

Or this may help:

http://elements.spiritalchemy.com/t3-Ch3.html

Well, one of the pictures shows again that Fire and Air are the more warm 'outward directed' elements, and Earth + Water the more cool 'inward inward' elements -- interesting to read that this is a dimension used by Aristotle's (who I had mentioned in the introduction post of this topic - but so far only regarding his use of the word psyche).

I also wasn't aware that both Plato and Aristotle had used the term 'elements', and how Jung's work can be traced back to the Greek philosophers.


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 28 Aristotle-elemental-qualities


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:07 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:51 am


Ah... I think here's the formal proof why Christopher was wrong regarding associating fire & earth with "more outgoing" (= hot):

Air is primarily wet and secondarily hot.
Fire is primarily hot and secondarily dry.
Earth is primarily dry and secondarily cold.
Water is primarily cold and secondarily wet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element#Classical_elements_in_Greece

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 28 Orphicquaternity


And nice to see that after notifying the parallel between the Vedic philosphy and Chinese philosophy ... we can now also more easily consider the parallels regarding the Greece philosophy!

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Post  Martijn (admin) Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:24 am


This list is interesting... with the palm of hand vs. back of hand featured (earth vs. air is missing, but could also but maybe it is interesting to become aware that the polarity regarding water & fire is larger because both can destroy each other).


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 28 Yin%2526yang

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Post  Patti Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:38 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
This list is interesting... with the palm of hand vs. back of hand featured (earth vs. air is missing, but could also but maybe it is interesting to become aware that the polarity regarding water & fire is larger because both can destroy each other).


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 28 Yin%2526yang

Earth is there as structure. Earth holds/contains Water. Water nourishes Earth
And Air would be Function.
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Post  Patti Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:42 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:...

I have just replied on the other thread. I also agree with Gettings that the thumb represents how we put our inner self out into the external world.


Lynn, I find your word choice very interesting here!
Did you have any specific passage from Gettings work in mind when you wrote this? If yes, can you please present a quote from his work?


PS. In my view, I could say that the thumb represents inner qualities that make it possible to put our inner self out into the external world. But the thumb can not do this by itself: the thumb needs to fingers to do this!

(And therefore I conser the fingers as more outward directed than the thumb itself!)
Martijn, this discussion is interesting. But, why do you repeatedly pick up(or make a meaning) words in a way that supports what you want to convey?

This is how Lynn's words can be interpreted too:

Lynn wrote:...
I have just replied on the other thread. I also agree with Gettings that the thumb represents how we put our inner self out into the external world.

In an earlier conversation also, I noticed that the following thing:
Birla and some other author's wordings which said - Thumb reprents inner side;
JF and Jen's wordings on the upper-ulnar quadrant relating to communications and the external world.

What is your opinion on JF and Jen's view on the thumb side? and Birla and the other author's view on upper radial side?

EDIT Anyways, this is not a suitable thread for thread for this discussion again.


Hi Kiran,

I have highlighted Lynn's words because these words literally illustrate that even when one 'associates' the thumb with the outer world... there could very well be an underlying fundamental connection between the thumb and the inner world.

However, I am not sure if Lynn's word choice should be taken as a specification of the principle that she has adopted.

Regarding JF and Jennifer's view, their works do not explicit suggest that they have thought things through regarding this issue; in their writings they don't take an explicit standpoint regarding the thumb. But I am also aware that many students simply tend to adopt the principles used by their teacher... without giving much thought about the fundamentals and the implications.

In the other topics I have described more details about how I perceive thinks solely based on the fundamentals of the philosophy being used, so I hesitate to start pointing out to my earlier observations in the other topic here again... especially since your first comment suggests that in your opinion this might not be the right place to continue the earlier discussion.

Anyway, I appreciate your questions Kiran! Thumbs up!

I'm bringing this back over here as it's more about the inner/outer nature of the thumb than it is about Jung's Model for the Psyche of the Mind.
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Post  Patti Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:51 pm

I have highlighted Lynn's words because these words literally illustrate that even when one 'associates' the thumb with the outer world... there could very well be an underlying fundamental connection between the thumb and the inner world.

Now this is a perspective you haven't touched on yet.

Your words suggest that most people that read hands and have written books about reading hands, Johnny and Jennifer included, have somehow viewed the thumb as being autonomous.

That's a really unusual viewpoint.

But it correlates with a chapter from the book "The User Illusion" about the concept of the Bicameral mind by Julian Jaynes, and refers to some writings in the bible and in Homer's work that imply that at a certain period of time, or a certain group of people, were unable to think out things and a voice in their heads (voice of a god) told them what to do. At some point (in evolution of mankind) this voice in the head receded to the realms of those that are schizophrenic.

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Post  Lynn Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:20 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Ah... I think here's the formal proof why Christopher was wrong regarding associating fire & earth with "more outgoing" (= hot):

Air is primarily wet and secondarily hot.
Fire is primarily hot and secondarily dry.
Earth is primarily dry and secondarily cold.
Water is primarily cold and secondarily wet.


Christopher has never said that earth is hot.

You keep bringing up Christopher's use of the word 'expressive' and 'outwardly directed' for earth and claiming he is incorrect, has made a mistake, has violated his own principles, violated earth archetype, violated yin/yang etc etc. I have explained this to you before, but you decline to take on board.....

In his chapter about Li & Chi - principles vs manifestations, in addition to saying that earth and water are passive (yin) elements and fire and air are active (yang) Christopher uses the words expressive and outwardly directed for earth and fire because:

The most visible, tangible part of you (ie your earth) is your physical body.
We interact physically in the world via our physical body.
The first thing that is noticeable about you is your earth (your physical, tangible body shape & form) and your fire (your actions), whereas your water and air (emotions and thoughts) remain hidden.
In that way, earth is expressive and outwardly directed.

You are correct that air is active, but in human terms we need our earth to be able to express our air thoughts and communication. If it wasn't for our physical body our air could never be expressed out into the world. So in that way also, earth is expressive.

Principles vs manifestations. Water is placid, receptive, passive, yin, inwardly orientated. Would you accuse a tsunami of violating its yin /water principles? Or might it occur to you that tsunami is a yang form of water?




Last edited by Lynn on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : can't spell tsunami!)

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Post  Lynn Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:39 am

Thanks for transferring this over to this thread Patti.

Lynn
the thumb represents how we put our inner self out into the external world
Martijn
I have highlighted Lynn's words because these words literally illustrate that even when one 'associates' the thumb with the outer world... there could very well be an underlying fundamental connection between the thumb and the inner world.

However, I am not sure if Lynn's word choice should be taken as a specification of the principle that she has adopted.

What? What do you mean about my word choice vs principle I have adopted?

Martijn's earlier post
Lynn, please be aware: in your very first post you acknowledged that you could identify with the 'inner essence' part of the title of this topic.

(And I was happy to see you confirm that aspect of my title... though I am not sure that I expressed this, sorry for not letting you know)

go back to page 1. I said "Whilst ether fits with 'the essence of a person', all the parts of that make up the essence or core identity are already there in all other aspects of the hand. I would say that the thumb integrates and synthesises all these parts and aspects, brings it all together, and (rather than being the essence or core identity itself) gives us the ability to express that essence out into the world."

I have said similar things throughout this discussion. eg 'the thumb is the vehicle via which we express the rest of the hand out into the world', 'thumb represents how we connect to the outer world' etc.


So I don't understand the point you are making regarding "I am not sure if Lynn's word choice should be taken as a specification of the principle that she has adopted."

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Post  Patti Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:46 am

The most visible, tangible part of you (ie your earth) is your physical body.
We interact physically in the world via our physical body.
The first thing that is noticeable about you is your earth (your physical, tangible body shape & form) and your fire (your actions), whereas your water and air (emotions and thoughts) remain hidden.
In that way, earth is expressive and outwardly directed.

You are correct that air is active, but in human terms we need our earth to be able to express our air thoughts and communication. If it wasn't for our physical body our air could never be expressed out into the world. So in that way also, earth is expressive.

Principles vs manifestations. Water is placid, receptive, passive, yin, inwardly orientated. Would you accuse a tsunami of violating its yin /water principles? Or might it occur to you that tsumani is a yang form of water?

Well said Lynn!! Thumbs up!
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