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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:49 pm

Patti wrote:I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 A+woman's+open+hands+offering+fresh-picked+olives

When we give and receive we open our hands with the thumbs outward.

sunny

Sure Patti, what you describe regarding the picture above is a fact.

But can you please respond to my request regarding the anatomic prespective:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p705-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#26612

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Post  Lynn Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:59 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn, I would appreciate if also mind to take a look at my post above and share whether you can support my conclusion regarding the anatomic perspective?

(Would you be willing to agree regarding the thumb being positioned more inward in the anatomic perspective?)

Sorry I didn't notice this request before (and I now notice this was the second time you asked me)
Yes I agree.
P75 Dukes also says "The thumb is closest to the physical body"
altho when I am walking it shifts to the front position.

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Post  Martijn (admin) Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:54 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn, I would appreciate if also mind to take a look at my post above and share whether you can support my conclusion regarding the anatomic perspective?

(Would you be willing to agree regarding the thumb being positioned more inward in the anatomic perspective?)

Sorry I didn't notice this request before (and I now notice this was the second time you asked me)
Yes I agree.
P75 Dukes also says "The thumb is closest to the physical body"
altho when I am walking it shifts to the front position.

Ah great, thanks Lynn!

Thanks!


Regarding Dukes' comment op page 75 ("The thumb is closest to the physical body ..."), I perceive that his comment only relates to the fact that the thumb is positioned more proximal to the wrist (not related anyhow to the theme 'inner' versus 'outer').

However, I perceive the parallel regarding the thumb and the big toe as relating to a different issue... because it points out that in the anatomic perspective the ulnar side of the hand is the more 'outward' positioned aspect of the hand; just like is seen for the feet... which we nearly always see from the 'outer' dorsal side!

So, regarding the hand... yesterday I had an eureka moment when I began to understand that we should be very aware of the difference between the dorsal side of the hand and the palm side of hand. And because as a 'hand observer' we always look from the outer world to the hand... and thus it requires us to be aware that the 'inward' positioned aspect of the thumb can only be perceived directly by taking a look at the hand via the dorsal side!


PS. :Maybe our fellow primates would understood this faster than us... because while walking on their hands the parallel with the feet is more easily noticed! Very Happy

cheers And actually, the primates 'knuckle-walk' only includes the 4 fingers... but never the thumb; which clearly shows that the thumb was never meant for locomotion into the outer world anyhow!!!

In some tree-monkeys thumb even appears to be missing (almost) completely; probably because as a side-ward anatomic 'attachement' it could easy get injured when divind from tree to tree! hand dance

The thumb obviously has a different (higher) evolutionary purpose than our fingers... and because it is not meant for locomotion in the outer world, it more relates to our inner nature!

Which I perceive symbolically confirmed by the anatomic 'more inward' positioned (proximal) thumb featured with only 2 phalanges... which are all typical Yin-related features of the body!


nice thread

NOTICE: See the 'knuckle-walk' used by the ape in the pictures below: the 'short' thumb never gets involved in locomotion... not on the ground, and not in the trees! The thumb has the purpose the get a 'grip' on things... or to take things INWARDS (e.g. food)!
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Evolution_thumb%5B1%5D

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Burrito-knuckle-walk-playroom_web_mg_6544

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sunny

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Post  Patti Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:54 am

A long thumb does set us apart in the sense that it easily makes pulp to pulp contact with the other digits. A couple of different references in "The Psychobiology of the Hand" point out that it is the strength of the thumb that is most important. It gives a strong grip and the ability for precision.
Page 82 and page 95
"Our thumbs also have some features which enable their precise use in very strong grips, which probably contributes to the forms of fine handling and tool use that we find easy to accomplish but which we rarely see in other species."

Our thumbs allow us to better interact with the outer world. The thumb is on the radial, outer side of the hand. The ulnar side of the hand is a less movable structure compared to the radial side. Radial side had the index finger and it's mount and their ability to flex along with the thumb and thenar mount. On the ulnar side only the little finger quadrant can flex and bend.
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Post  Martijn (admin) Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:26 pm

Patti wrote:I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 400_F_35653870_LTJO6EzKa6SXAPasxc63RdUSetIEu9w5

wave

Patti wrote:A long thumb does set us apart in the sense that it easily makes pulp to pulp contact with the other digits. A couple of different references in "The Psychobiology of the Hand" point out that it is the strength of the thumb that is most important. It gives a strong grip and the ability for precision.
Page 82 and page 95
"Our thumbs also have some features which enable their precise use in very strong grips, which probably contributes to the forms of fine handling and tool use that we find easy to accomplish but which we rarely see in other species."

Our thumbs allow us to better interact with the outer world. The thumb is on the radial, outer side of the hand. The ulnar side of the hand is a less movable structure compared to the radial side. Radial side had the index finger and it's mount and their ability to flex along with the thumb and thenar mount. On the ulnar side only the little finger quadrant can flex and bend.

Patti, I noticed your statement above + your earlier picture (my hands and feet have never been in a position like that...?).

Patti, does this implicate that you are not able to agree with me that in the anatomic perspective the thumb (just like the big toe) is positioned inward towards the central axis of the body, and the pinky (just like the little toe) is positioned outward?:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p705-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#26612


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Hands_and_feet

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sunny

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Post  Patti Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:00 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 400_F_35653870_LTJO6EzKa6SXAPasxc63RdUSetIEu9w5

wave

Patti wrote:A long thumb does set us apart in the sense that it easily makes pulp to pulp contact with the other digits. A couple of different references in "The Psychobiology of the Hand" point out that it is the strength of the thumb that is most important. It gives a strong grip and the ability for precision.
Page 82 and page 95
"Our thumbs also have some features which enable their precise use in very strong grips, which probably contributes to the forms of fine handling and tool use that we find easy to accomplish but which we rarely see in other species."

Our thumbs allow us to better interact with the outer world. The thumb is on the radial, outer side of the hand. The ulnar side of the hand is a less movable structure compared to the radial side. Radial side had the index finger and it's mount and their ability to flex along with the thumb and thenar mount. On the ulnar side only the little finger quadrant can flex and bend.

Patti, I noticed your statement above + your earlier picture (my hands and feet have never been in a position like that...?).

Patti, does this implicate that you are not able to agree with me that in the anatomic perspective the thumb (just like the big toe) is positioned inward towards the central axis of the body, and the pinky (just like the little toe) is positioned outward?:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p705-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#26612


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Hands_and_feet

Anyway, I apologize for not responding earlier to your question (but that is only because I probaby did not find the time or put enough priority to the post where you presented this question).

My response is similar to yours to Lynn. May I ask why you have questions about this image and the placement of the big toes and thumbs?
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Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:37 am

Patti wrote:
My response is similar to yours to Lynn. May I ask why you have questions about this image and the placement of the big toes and thumbs?

Patti, I didn't ask questions regarding the picture itself.

I only used the picture to illustrate that the (inward) position of the big toe in the foot suggests that in order to describe the inward- and outward side of the hand it would only makes sense to do this via the dorsal perspective of the hand.

(Because when looking at the inner palm we actually see the reversed perspective compared to the dorsal perspective, because when looking at the hand via the inner palm the anatomic inward positioned thumb... may appear to get re-positioned via a twist of the wrist to the outer side, however, the anatomic perspective does not really change of course)


Anyway, I was happy to see that Lynn was able to confirm this.

And I still have hopes that you will be able to acknowledge this as well, because that would implicate that we at least have found some clear point of reference to proceed - only related to the anatomic perspective of course!

(Afterwards time will tell if we are able to find more agreement in other perspective, etc.)


wave

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Post  Patti Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:03 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
My response is similar to yours to Lynn. May I ask why you have questions about this image and the placement of the big toes and thumbs?

Patti, I didn't ask questions regarding the picture itself.

I only used the picture to illustrate that the (inward) position of the big toe in the foot suggests that in order to describe the inward- and outward side of the hand it would only makes sense to do this via the dorsal perspective of the hand.

(Because when looking at the inner palm we actually see the reversed perspective compared to the dorsal perspective, because when looking at the hand via the inner palm the anatomic inward positioned thumb... may appear to get re-positioned via a twist of the wrist to the outer side, however, the anatomic perspective does not really change of course)


Anyway, I was happy to see that Lynn was able to confirm this.

And I still have hopes that you will be able to acknowledge this as well, because that would implicate that we at least have found some clear point of reference to proceed - only related to the anatomic perspective of course!

(Afterwards time will tell if we are able to find more agreement in other perspective, etc.)


wave

Well it seems like a silly question. Unless it's a trick photo of some sort I obviously am looking at what you are looking at. I don't know why you need confirmation from me as to what is in the photo.
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Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:54 pm

Patti wrote:
Well it seems like a silly question. Unless it's a trick photo of some sort I obviously am looking at what you are looking at. I don't know why you need confirmation from me as to what is in the photo.

Well Patti... if we are not even able to find an agreement about the anatomic perspective in this discussion (which you have tried to address yourself as well), then I foresee that we probably won't be able to agree about anything significant at all regarding this topic.


PS. Again, the photo that I presented is itself not important at all. Why do you think that this is some kind of 'trick photo'?

(I did not present any 'silly question'; however, in my view it is rather remarkable that you are not even able to confirm my rather simple observation regarding the dorsal aspect for both hands and feet in the anatomic perspective)

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Post  Patti Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:22 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Well it seems like a silly question. Unless it's a trick photo of some sort I obviously am looking at what you are looking at. I don't know why you need confirmation from me as to what is in the photo.

Well Patti... if we are not even able to find an agreement about the anatomic perspective in this discussion (which you have tried to address yourself as well), then I foresee that we probably won't be able to agree about anything significant at all regarding this topic.


PS. Again, the photo that I presented is itself not important at all. Why do you think that this is some kind of 'trick photo'?

(I did not present any 'silly question'; however, in my view it is rather remarkable that you are not even able to confirm my rather simple observation regarding the dorsal aspect for both hands and feet in the anatomic perspective)

I'd like to know your motivation, that's all. The photo is self explanatory.
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Post  Patti Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:05 pm

I may still tweak this. Communication Trees are described in the book "The User Illusion" and used to show how some thought processes and communication work. The chapter is called "The Tree of Talking".

Here is my current and 1st version of a communication tree showing the possible flow and connections of energy represented in the palms.

Martijn, I'd be interested to see how you would arrange your Communication Tree. Is inner and outer the only disagreement?

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Jung-a11

Later, I plan to create another and use color to better show the directions of the flow of energy.
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Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:53 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Well it seems like a silly question. Unless it's a trick photo of some sort I obviously am looking at what you are looking at. I don't know why you need confirmation from me as to what is in the photo.

Well Patti... if we are not even able to find an agreement about the anatomic perspective in this discussion (which you have tried to address yourself as well), then I foresee that we probably won't be able to agree about anything significant at all regarding this topic.


PS. Again, the photo that I presented is itself not important at all. Why do you think that this is some kind of 'trick photo'?

(I did not present any 'silly question'; however, in my view it is rather remarkable that you are not even able to confirm my rather simple observation regarding the dorsal aspect for both hands and feet in the anatomic perspective)

I'd like to know your motivation, that's all. The photo is self explanatory.

My motivation???

Patti, remember, a small part of this discussion got focussed on the anatomic perspective... so I wonder why you ask me to describe my motivation ony after I was able to solve our dispute regarding the anatomic perspective.

Your responses to my request give me the impression that you appear to avoid answering my rather simple question (e.g. by putting pointless questions in return).


PS. Again, Lynn immediately accepted my proposal regarding how to perceive the position of the thumb in the anatomic perspective. If you think that my photo is 'explanatory', then I wonder why you keep responding like we have entered some kind of rethoric competitive game of seek and hide.

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Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:31 pm


I will substantiate my perspective a little bit more by presenting some passages from the works of Ursula von Mangoldt and Matthias Mala (who both can be recognized as representatives of the German 'Chirologie' school in the 2nd half of the 20 century)


After mentioning the name Ursula von Mangoldt (Gettings has described her work as one of the few early modern authors worthy of attention - next to Spier & Jaquin) in one of my earlier posts in this topic, I would like to share a small sample from her work... in order to illustrate that he 'Ich - Dich' [translated: I - You] vertical sub-division in her work (she literally speaks of 'polaren' - poles - which one could associated with: Yin - Yang) is likewisely related to the works of Birla & Sprong (who use: Ida - Pingala).

Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]


One of Mangoldt's student authors has described the vertical division a litle bit more clearly. Mathias Mala writes in his work "Esoterisches Handlesen" the following on page 31 regarding the You-site (Du-seite):

"Trotzdem liegt dieses Du nicht ausserhalb des Menschen und seiner Innerlichtkeit. Es ist viel mehr ein dem Egozentrum ferner Bereich. In ihm liegt das den Menschen Gemeinsame, das archetypische und psychologische Grundmuster. Auf dieser Seite zeigt sich aber auch unsere Fähigkeit, mit dem uns Fernen und scheinbar Gegenüberstehenden in Kommunikation zu treten und dadurch unser Selbst zu formen. In diesem Bereich wirkt andererseits eine drängende Kraft, die die sich auf der Ich-Seite manifestierende Vitalkraft zu modifizieren versucht."

[Translated: "Nevertheless, this 'You' is not outside of man and his Inner. It is much more an area beyond the Egozentrum. It represents the similar features seen in man, the archetypal and psychologic basic pattern. This side shows also our ability to interact with the distant and seemingly opposite parties in communication, and thereby to shape our self. In this area also works a pressing force, that is trying to modify on the I-side manifesting vital force."]

NOTICE: The picture below is taken from Matthias Mala's work; the bottom quote is also featured in right side of the picture (see the [ ] - signs)
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Hand-d10


thinking After studying the work of Jung I can now finally point out that this quote from Mala kind of describes how the (unconscious) archetypes inside us represent basic patterns that become the necessary 'tools' people need in order to interact with other people.

- Von Mangoldt was also an author of other works related to spirituality and esoterics, see: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_Mangoldt#Chirologie

-Matthias Mala is also a German author who has published many books, include 3 works about hands: http://www.matthias-mala.de


king This 3-week lasting discussion has finally helped me to get a grip on what the German authors actually described. Not sure about the exact connection between the work of Ursula von Mangoldt [1904-1987] and the work of Julius Spier [1887-1942]... but von Mangoldt must have studied Spier's work very well - and it is interesting to knowing that Spier was trained by Jung who has encouraged Spier to focus on psycho-chirology.

And I think I have now finally managed to describe how the work of Birla & Sprong relate to the esoteric German hand reading school (NOTICE: Spier's work is Psychoanalytic oriented and non-esoteric - therefore Spier's work should not be associated with the esoteric German hand reading school... unfortunately I was not able to point this out in an earlier phase of this discussion).

I will ask Manfred to describe how the works of Spier & Mangoldt should be perceived to each other!

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Patti Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:07 pm

Jung described Spier as an intuitive using his knowledge from experience.

The male able to identify with the opposite sex and the female with the male is related to the Anima/Animus. I placed this on the thenar area in my graphic.
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:23 am

Although you haven't changed your mind about the radial/ulnar sides and how you have connected radial to inner self, out ulnar to outer self, I am happy that even though you didn't see a purpose at the time I posted the ideas, you have taken on board the idea of yin/yang and some of Jung's ideas as well.

After reading a bit here at the link below, I wondered if you were using the thumb and big toe aiming centrally toward the core of the body as 'inner' because of its location.

Such as how this group of phrases can be applied to locations within our psyche.

"Obey your superiors, stand on your rights; face the future, put the past behind you. Don't be left, do the right thing. Center yourself. Kiss up, kick down; look forward, don't look back. Sinister implications, right away. Look inside. Held in high esteem, an object of low regard. Face uncertainty, let the past take care of itself. The devil's on your left shoulder, an angel's on your right. The still voice inside. Lofty ideals, basic instincts; sailing into uncertain waters, back in the old days. Feminine left, masculine right. Inner space. Higher power, lower self; you've got your life in front of you, time's running out, don't get left behind. Left is weak, right is strong. In the middle, at the center, where it all comes together. "

http://www.psyche.com/psyche/cube/cube_metapsychology.html

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Cube_meta3


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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:42 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I will substantiate my perspective a little bit more by presenting some passages from the works of Ursula von Mangoldt and Matthias Mala (who both can be recognized as representatives of the German 'Chirologie' school in the 2nd half of the 20 century)


After mentioning the name Ursula von Mangoldt (Gettings has described her work as one of the few early modern authors worthy of attention - next to Spier & Jaquin) in one of my earlier posts in this topic, I would like to share a small sample from her work... in order to illustrate that he 'Ich - Dich' [translated: I - You] vertical sub-division in her work (she literally speaks of 'polaren' - poles - which one could associated with: Yin - Yang) is likewisely related to the works of Birla & Sprong (who use: Ida - Pingala).

Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]


One of Mangoldt's student authors has described the vertical division a litle bit more clearly. Mathias Mala writes in his work "Esoterisches Handlesen" the following on page 31 regarding the You-site (Du-seite):

"Trotzdem liegt dieses Du nicht ausserhalb des Menschen und seiner Innerlichtkeit. Es ist viel mehr ein dem Egozentrum ferner Bereich. In ihm liegt das den Menschen Gemeinsame, das archetypische und psychologische Grundmuster. Auf dieser Seite zeigt sich aber auch unsere Fähigkeit, mit dem uns Fernen und scheinbar Gegenüberstehenden in Kommunikation zu treten und dadurch unser Selbst zu formen. In diesem Bereich wirkt andererseits eine drängende Kraft, die die sich auf der Ich-Seite manifestierende Vitalkraft zu modifizieren versucht."

[Translated: "Nevertheless, this 'You' is not outside of man and his Inner. It is much more an area beyond the Egozentrum. It represents the similar features seen in man, the archetypal and psychologic basic pattern. This side shows also our ability to interact with the distant and seemingly opposite parties in communication, and thereby to shape our self. In this area also works a pressing force, that is trying to modify on the I-side manifesting vital force."]

NOTICE: The picture below is taken from Matthias Mala's work; the bottom quote is also featured in right side of the picture (see the [ ] - signs)
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Hand-d10


thinking After studying the work of Jung I can now finally point out that this quote from Mala kind of describes how the (unconscious) archetypes inside us represent basic patterns that become the necessary 'tools' people need in order to interact with other people.

- Von Mangoldt was also an author of other works related to spirituality and esoterics, see: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_Mangoldt#Chirologie

-Matthias Mala is also a German author who has published many books, include 3 works about hands: http://www.matthias-mala.de


king This 3-week lasting discussion has finally helped me to get a grip on what the German authors actually described. Not sure about the exact connection between the work of Ursula von Mangoldt [1904-1987] and the work of Julius Spier [1887-1942]... but von Mangoldt must have studied Spier's work very well - and it is interesting to knowing that Spier was trained by Jung who has encouraged Spier to focus on psycho-chirology.

And I think I have now finally managed to describe how the work of Birla & Sprong relate to the esoteric German hand reading school (NOTICE: Spier's work is Psychoanalytic oriented and non-esoteric - therefore Spier's work should not be associated with the esoteric German hand reading school... unfortunately I was not able to point this out in an earlier phase of this discussion).

I will ask Manfred to describe how the works of Spier & Mangoldt should be perceived to each other!

From what I'm understanding of the translation is that both the "you" and the "I" are *inner*, but in different locations. The "you" is related to the Anima/Animus from how I'm reading it. I placed this area on the thenar because it relates to desire and indirectly to family bonds because of it's reproduction nature. It is the man looking for the woman in him, in other select women who reflect/mirror back to him his own feminine side. (remember the Peter Gabriel video I uploaded with the line "maybe he's trying to find his womanly side - let him feel")
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:43 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I will substantiate my perspective a little bit more by presenting some passages from the works of Ursula von Mangoldt and Matthias Mala (who both can be recognized as representatives of the German 'Chirologie' school in the 2nd half of the 20 century)


After mentioning the name Ursula von Mangoldt (Gettings has described her work as one of the few early modern authors worthy of attention - next to Spier & Jaquin) in one of my earlier posts in this topic, I would like to share a small sample from her work... in order to illustrate that he 'Ich - Dich' [translated: I - You] vertical sub-division in her work (she literally speaks of 'polaren' - poles - which one could associated with: Yin - Yang) is likewisely related to the works of Birla & Sprong (who use: Ida - Pingala).

Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]


One of Mangoldt's student authors has described the vertical division a litle bit more clearly. Mathias Mala writes in his work "Esoterisches Handlesen" the following on page 31 regarding the You-site (Du-seite):

"Trotzdem liegt dieses Du nicht ausserhalb des Menschen und seiner Innerlichtkeit. Es ist viel mehr ein dem Egozentrum ferner Bereich. In ihm liegt das den Menschen Gemeinsame, das archetypische und psychologische Grundmuster. Auf dieser Seite zeigt sich aber auch unsere Fähigkeit, mit dem uns Fernen und scheinbar Gegenüberstehenden in Kommunikation zu treten und dadurch unser Selbst zu formen. In diesem Bereich wirkt andererseits eine drängende Kraft, die die sich auf der Ich-Seite manifestierende Vitalkraft zu modifizieren versucht."

[Translated: "Nevertheless, this 'You' is not outside of man and his Inner. It is much more an area beyond the Egozentrum. It represents the similar features seen in man, the archetypal and psychologic basic pattern. This side shows also our ability to interact with the distant and seemingly opposite parties in communication, and thereby to shape our self. In this area also works a pressing force, that is trying to modify on the I-side manifesting vital force."]

NOTICE: The picture below is taken from Matthias Mala's work; the bottom quote is also featured in right side of the picture (see the [ ] - signs)
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Hand-d10


thinking After studying the work of Jung I can now finally point out that this quote from Mala kind of describes how the (unconscious) archetypes inside us represent basic patterns that become the necessary 'tools' people need in order to interact with other people.

- Von Mangoldt was also an author of other works related to spirituality and esoterics, see: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_Mangoldt#Chirologie

-Matthias Mala is also a German author who has published many books, include 3 works about hands: http://www.matthias-mala.de


king This 3-week lasting discussion has finally helped me to get a grip on what the German authors actually described. Not sure about the exact connection between the work of Ursula von Mangoldt [1904-1987] and the work of Julius Spier [1887-1942]... but von Mangoldt must have studied Spier's work very well - and it is interesting to knowing that Spier was trained by Jung who has encouraged Spier to focus on psycho-chirology.

And I think I have now finally managed to describe how the work of Birla & Sprong relate to the esoteric German hand reading school (NOTICE: Spier's work is Psychoanalytic oriented and non-esoteric - therefore Spier's work should not be associated with the esoteric German hand reading school... unfortunately I was not able to point this out in an earlier phase of this discussion).

I will ask Manfred to describe how the works of Spier & Mangoldt should be perceived to each other!

From what I'm understanding of the translation is that both the "you" and the "I" are *inner*, but in different locations. The "you" is related to the Anima/Animus from how I'm reading it. I placed this area on the thenar because it relates to desire and indirectly to family bonds because of it's reproduction nature. It is the man looking for the woman in him, in other select women who reflect/mirror back to him his own feminine side. (remember the Peter Gabriel video I uploaded with the line "maybe he's trying to find his womanly side - let him feel")
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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:44 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Ah... I think here's the formal proof why Christopher was wrong regarding associating fire & earth with "more outgoing" (= hot):

Air is primarily wet and secondarily hot.
Fire is primarily hot and secondarily dry.
Earth is primarily dry and secondarily cold.
Water is primarily cold and secondarily wet.


Christopher has never said that earth is hot.

You keep bringing up Christopher's use of the word 'expressive' and 'outwardly directed' for earth and claiming he is incorrect, has made a mistake, has violated his own principles, violated earth archetype, violated yin/yang etc etc. I have explained this to you before, but you decline to take on board.....

In his chapter about Li & Chi - principles vs manifestations, in addition to saying that earth and water are passive (yin) elements and fire and air are active (yang) Christopher uses the words expressive and outwardly directed for earth and fire because:

The most visible, tangible part of you (ie your earth) is your physical body.
We interact physically in the world via our physical body.
The first thing that is noticeable about you is your earth (your physical, tangible body shape & form) and your fire (your actions), whereas your water and air (emotions and thoughts) remain hidden.
In that way, earth is expressive and outwardly directed.


Lynn, coincidently I found the following 2 pictures at this website:
http://www.thenrgroup.net/member/MRO/OCT/OCT-64.htm

Can you find the (white) words 'inward looking' and 'outward looking' in both pictures below? And the (yellow) word 'Expression' in the bottom picture?


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 OCT-64_1

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 OCT-64_2


Then we can also connect the 4 temperaments the 4 elements as follows:

air = sanguine
water = phlegmatic
earth = melancholic
fire = choleric

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Temperaments#History_and_the_ancient_four_temperaments


Finally, if we combine all these principles... the result is interesting: we see that earth & water get linked with 'inward looking', and fire & air get linked with 'outward looking'; and ... the word 'expression' is directly associated with Air only (Fire is more a matter of 'application').

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Elemen11


Lynn, do you recognize how this proofs my point?

Air (sanguine temperament) & Fire (choleric temperament) are linked with 'outward looking'; while Earth (melancholic temperament) and Water (phlegmatic temperament) get connected with 'inward looking'.


By the way, in this 'Archive for the Personality Category' the words 'outgoing' and 'expressive' are linked only with the element... air (= sanguine)!

This implicates that Air is much more 'outward directed' than Earth; because Earth stays where it is due to it's inert quality... while Air goes everywhere whenever it can!

Therefore it's a fundamental and philosophic mistake to associate earth with the words 'more outwardly' because this suggests a dynamic process directed towards the outside. Because earth is crystalized & static:= inert; earth is not moving- and not directed anywhere.

Only Fire & Air are 'outward looking'... and 'outward directed'.
And Air is the most 'expressive' & talkative element: the archetype of Mercurius has this quality as well!

And therefore, I think this very precisely explains why Johnny's reference for the Air quadrant is very specific regarding the words 'public stage', 'world stage' and 'outer world'.

(Fully supported by Duke's guideline!)

wave


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:59 am; edited 1 time in total

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:54 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]


One of Mangoldt's student authors has described the vertical division a litle bit more clearly. Mathias Mala writes in his work "Esoterisches Handlesen" the following on page 31 regarding the You-site (Du-seite):

"Trotzdem liegt dieses Du nicht ausserhalb des Menschen und seiner Innerlichtkeit. Es ist viel mehr ein dem Egozentrum ferner Bereich. In ihm liegt das den Menschen Gemeinsame, das archetypische und psychologische Grundmuster. Auf dieser Seite zeigt sich aber auch unsere Fähigkeit, mit dem uns Fernen und scheinbar Gegenüberstehenden in Kommunikation zu treten und dadurch unser Selbst zu formen. In diesem Bereich wirkt andererseits eine drängende Kraft, die die sich auf der Ich-Seite manifestierende Vitalkraft zu modifizieren versucht."

[Translated: "Nevertheless, this 'You' is not outside of man and his Inner. It is much more an area beyond the Egozentrum. It represents the similar features seen in man, the archetypal and psychologic basic pattern. This side shows also our ability to interact with the distant and seemingly opposite parties in communication, and thereby to shape our self. In this area also works a pressing force, that is trying to modify on the I-side manifesting vital force."]


Here is the translation I made:

Nevertheless this you does not lie outside of the person and its interior light-ness. It is much more the ego center furthermore area. In it, lies the person joint, the archetypal and psychological basic scenario. On this side, however also our capacity that appears to step with us distances and apparently opposing in communication and to our form through it even. In this area, a pressing power causes on the other hand to modify that the vital power tried manifesting itself on the I side

It appears to me that you have interpreted it a little incorrectly, and these subtle differences change things a lot. Such as here in my translation it is saying that it is the "ego center" and you are saying it is beyond the ego. And other such inconsistencies.
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:14 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:


Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]

another translation:
Next to the horizontal Dreiteiling of the internal Händfläche, there is it another second distribution that separates vertical, that the I side vond of the you side. This separation performs the Saturn line that springs large vertical, that in its ideal form between Venus mountain and moon mountain and climbs to the Saturn mountain. The division of the hand is symbol of the polar split characterizing all created in I and you, Subject and Object, active and passive, in man-like schöpfiches power and feminine susceptibility. This split alienates the creature the creator, separates the person from the person, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation the entire despair and sorrow full isolation of the person that must search again and again for its against pole, its supplement and redemption in the other


It probably would have saved a few weeks of time if you had posted these quotes earlier.

Although there is a description of I and You, the "you" is only the mirror - the opposite - one seeks to balance within themselves or within a relationship. It is not in this sense the 'public' per se, but about opposites and inner balance.

<edit>
I is the inner self and you is the outer self only in the sense the I is the 'me' inside the little baby reaching out with it's fisted hand - opening and closing it's fingers with outer world skills saying "me! me! me!"


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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:19 am

Patti wrote:
Here is the translation I made:

Nevertheless this you does not lie outside of the person and its interior light-ness. It is much more the ego center furthermore area. In it, lies the person joint, the archetypal and psychological basic scenario. On this side, however also our capacity that appears to step with us distances and apparently opposing in communication and to our form through it even. In this area, a pressing power causes on the other hand to modify that the vital power tried manifesting itself on the I side

It appears to me that you have interpreted it a little incorrectly, and these subtle differences change things a lot. Such as here in my translation it is saying that it is the "ego center" and you are saying it is beyond the ego. And other such inconsistencies.

No Patti, your translation is incorrect... of course the Ego gets linked with the Ich ('I') side of the hand.

By the way, the first quote als says:

"Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit."

This implicates:

Ich ('I') = subject = active = male creative force
Du ('You') = object = passive = female reception

Ego = subject = I = Ich


PS. The German translation of Freud's Super-Ego is... Über-Ich: again, Ego = Ich!!! Banana waving

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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:21 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Here is the translation I made:

Nevertheless this you does not lie outside of the person and its interior light-ness. It is much more the ego center furthermore area. In it, lies the person joint, the archetypal and psychological basic scenario. On this side, however also our capacity that appears to step with us distances and apparently opposing in communication and to our form through it even. In this area, a pressing power causes on the other hand to modify that the vital power tried manifesting itself on the I side

It appears to me that you have interpreted it a little incorrectly, and these subtle differences change things a lot. Such as here in my translation it is saying that it is the "ego center" and you are saying it is beyond the ego. And other such inconsistencies.

No Patti, your translation is incorrect... of course the Ego gets linked with the Ich ('I') side of the hand.

By the way, the first quote als says:

"Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit."

This implicates:

Ich ('I') = subject = active = male creative force
Du ('You') = object = passive = female reception

Ego = subject = I = Ich


PS. The German translation of Freud's Super-Ego is... Über-Ich: again, Ego = Ich!!! Banana waving

Well, scratch if my translation is incorrect - why did you just agree with it?? You had originally said it was beyond the ego, not the ego. "[Translated: "Nevertheless, this 'You' is not outside of man and his Inner. It is much more an area beyond the Egozentrum.

To go further:
"In it, lies the person joint, the archetypal and psychological basic scenario." This is the description for "you" and not the "I".

Nothing I've read in any of the translations is implying that this I and You is relating to anyone other than the divided Self. Or Self divided into Consciousness (You) and Ego/Persona/Shadow (I)
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:01 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:


Then we can also connect the 4 temperaments the 4 elements as follows:

air = sanguine
water = phlegmatic
earth = melancholic
fire = choleric

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Temperaments#History_and_the_ancient_four_temperaments


Finally, if we combine all these principles... the result is interesting: we see that earth & water get linked with 'inward looking', and fire & air get linked with 'outward looking'; and ... the word 'expression' is directly associated with Air only (Fire is more a matter of 'application').

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Elemen11


Lynn, do you recognize how this proofs my point?

Air (sanguine temperament) & Fire (choleric temperament) are linked with 'outward looking'; while Earth (melancholic temperament) and Water (phlegmatic temperament) get connected with 'inward looking'.


By the way, in this 'Archive for the Personality Category' the words 'outgoing' and 'expressive' are linked only with the element... air (= sanguine)!

This implicates that Air is much more 'outward directed' than Earth; because Earth stays where it is due to it's inert quality... while Air goes everywhere whenever it can!

Therefore it's a fundamental and philosophic mistake to associate earth with the words 'more outwardly' because this suggests a dynamic process directed towards the outside. Because earth is crystalized & static:= inert; earth is not moving- and not directed anywhere.

Only Fire & Air are 'outward looking'... and 'outward directed'.
And Air is the most 'expressive' & talkative element: the archetype of Mercurius has this quality as well!

And therefore, I think this very precisely explains why Johnny's reference for the Air quadrant is very specific regarding the words 'public stage', 'world stage' and 'outer world'.

(Fully supported by Duke's guideline!)

wave

This is how I would arrange the chart you uploaded above:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Chart_11
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:46 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

This implicates that Air is much more 'outward directed' than Earth; because Earth stays where it is due to it's inert quality... while Air goes everywhere whenever it can!

Therefore it's a fundamental and philosophic mistake to associate earth with the words 'more outwardly' because this suggests a dynamic process directed towards the outside. Because earth is crystalized & static:= inert; earth is not moving- and not directed anywhere.

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According to this description of Earth - it should have been assigned to the hypothenar area as this is the most inert and static quadrant of the palm - or even of the hand. It is the only quadrant without a direct-able digit.

A characteristic assigned to where I placed the index is "distrust suspicion" and the most recent report on 2D:4D is that a short index compared to a long ring finger related to distrust and suspicion.

The Elements according to Patti flower
Earth = Lower Ulnar
Water = Upper Ulnar
Fire = Lower Radial
Air = Upper Radial
Vertical Division = between middle and ring - full hand
Horizontal Division = Across Mars mounts


Last edited by Patti on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:49 am

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Quadra10

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