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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:42 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I will substantiate my perspective a little bit more by presenting some passages from the works of Ursula von Mangoldt and Matthias Mala (who both can be recognized as representatives of the German 'Chirologie' school in the 2nd half of the 20 century)


After mentioning the name Ursula von Mangoldt (Gettings has described her work as one of the few early modern authors worthy of attention - next to Spier & Jaquin) in one of my earlier posts in this topic, I would like to share a small sample from her work... in order to illustrate that he 'Ich - Dich' [translated: I - You] vertical sub-division in her work (she literally speaks of 'polaren' - poles - which one could associated with: Yin - Yang) is likewisely related to the works of Birla & Sprong (who use: Ida - Pingala).

Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]


One of Mangoldt's student authors has described the vertical division a litle bit more clearly. Mathias Mala writes in his work "Esoterisches Handlesen" the following on page 31 regarding the You-site (Du-seite):

"Trotzdem liegt dieses Du nicht ausserhalb des Menschen und seiner Innerlichtkeit. Es ist viel mehr ein dem Egozentrum ferner Bereich. In ihm liegt das den Menschen Gemeinsame, das archetypische und psychologische Grundmuster. Auf dieser Seite zeigt sich aber auch unsere Fähigkeit, mit dem uns Fernen und scheinbar Gegenüberstehenden in Kommunikation zu treten und dadurch unser Selbst zu formen. In diesem Bereich wirkt andererseits eine drängende Kraft, die die sich auf der Ich-Seite manifestierende Vitalkraft zu modifizieren versucht."

[Translated: "Nevertheless, this 'You' is not outside of man and his Inner. It is much more an area beyond the Egozentrum. It represents the similar features seen in man, the archetypal and psychologic basic pattern. This side shows also our ability to interact with the distant and seemingly opposite parties in communication, and thereby to shape our self. In this area also works a pressing force, that is trying to modify on the I-side manifesting vital force."]

NOTICE: The picture below is taken from Matthias Mala's work; the bottom quote is also featured in right side of the picture (see the [ ] - signs)
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Hand-d10


thinking After studying the work of Jung I can now finally point out that this quote from Mala kind of describes how the (unconscious) archetypes inside us represent basic patterns that become the necessary 'tools' people need in order to interact with other people.

- Von Mangoldt was also an author of other works related to spirituality and esoterics, see: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_Mangoldt#Chirologie

-Matthias Mala is also a German author who has published many books, include 3 works about hands: http://www.matthias-mala.de


king This 3-week lasting discussion has finally helped me to get a grip on what the German authors actually described. Not sure about the exact connection between the work of Ursula von Mangoldt [1904-1987] and the work of Julius Spier [1887-1942]... but von Mangoldt must have studied Spier's work very well - and it is interesting to knowing that Spier was trained by Jung who has encouraged Spier to focus on psycho-chirology.

And I think I have now finally managed to describe how the work of Birla & Sprong relate to the esoteric German hand reading school (NOTICE: Spier's work is Psychoanalytic oriented and non-esoteric - therefore Spier's work should not be associated with the esoteric German hand reading school... unfortunately I was not able to point this out in an earlier phase of this discussion).

I will ask Manfred to describe how the works of Spier & Mangoldt should be perceived to each other!

From what I'm understanding of the translation is that both the "you" and the "I" are *inner*, but in different locations. The "you" is related to the Anima/Animus from how I'm reading it. I placed this area on the thenar because it relates to desire and indirectly to family bonds because of it's reproduction nature. It is the man looking for the woman in him, in other select women who reflect/mirror back to him his own feminine side. (remember the Peter Gabriel video I uploaded with the line "maybe he's trying to find his womanly side - let him feel")
Patti
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:43 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I will substantiate my perspective a little bit more by presenting some passages from the works of Ursula von Mangoldt and Matthias Mala (who both can be recognized as representatives of the German 'Chirologie' school in the 2nd half of the 20 century)


After mentioning the name Ursula von Mangoldt (Gettings has described her work as one of the few early modern authors worthy of attention - next to Spier & Jaquin) in one of my earlier posts in this topic, I would like to share a small sample from her work... in order to illustrate that he 'Ich - Dich' [translated: I - You] vertical sub-division in her work (she literally speaks of 'polaren' - poles - which one could associated with: Yin - Yang) is likewisely related to the works of Birla & Sprong (who use: Ida - Pingala).

Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]


One of Mangoldt's student authors has described the vertical division a litle bit more clearly. Mathias Mala writes in his work "Esoterisches Handlesen" the following on page 31 regarding the You-site (Du-seite):

"Trotzdem liegt dieses Du nicht ausserhalb des Menschen und seiner Innerlichtkeit. Es ist viel mehr ein dem Egozentrum ferner Bereich. In ihm liegt das den Menschen Gemeinsame, das archetypische und psychologische Grundmuster. Auf dieser Seite zeigt sich aber auch unsere Fähigkeit, mit dem uns Fernen und scheinbar Gegenüberstehenden in Kommunikation zu treten und dadurch unser Selbst zu formen. In diesem Bereich wirkt andererseits eine drängende Kraft, die die sich auf der Ich-Seite manifestierende Vitalkraft zu modifizieren versucht."

[Translated: "Nevertheless, this 'You' is not outside of man and his Inner. It is much more an area beyond the Egozentrum. It represents the similar features seen in man, the archetypal and psychologic basic pattern. This side shows also our ability to interact with the distant and seemingly opposite parties in communication, and thereby to shape our self. In this area also works a pressing force, that is trying to modify on the I-side manifesting vital force."]

NOTICE: The picture below is taken from Matthias Mala's work; the bottom quote is also featured in right side of the picture (see the [ ] - signs)
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Hand-d10


thinking After studying the work of Jung I can now finally point out that this quote from Mala kind of describes how the (unconscious) archetypes inside us represent basic patterns that become the necessary 'tools' people need in order to interact with other people.

- Von Mangoldt was also an author of other works related to spirituality and esoterics, see: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_Mangoldt#Chirologie

-Matthias Mala is also a German author who has published many books, include 3 works about hands: http://www.matthias-mala.de


king This 3-week lasting discussion has finally helped me to get a grip on what the German authors actually described. Not sure about the exact connection between the work of Ursula von Mangoldt [1904-1987] and the work of Julius Spier [1887-1942]... but von Mangoldt must have studied Spier's work very well - and it is interesting to knowing that Spier was trained by Jung who has encouraged Spier to focus on psycho-chirology.

And I think I have now finally managed to describe how the work of Birla & Sprong relate to the esoteric German hand reading school (NOTICE: Spier's work is Psychoanalytic oriented and non-esoteric - therefore Spier's work should not be associated with the esoteric German hand reading school... unfortunately I was not able to point this out in an earlier phase of this discussion).

I will ask Manfred to describe how the works of Spier & Mangoldt should be perceived to each other!

From what I'm understanding of the translation is that both the "you" and the "I" are *inner*, but in different locations. The "you" is related to the Anima/Animus from how I'm reading it. I placed this area on the thenar because it relates to desire and indirectly to family bonds because of it's reproduction nature. It is the man looking for the woman in him, in other select women who reflect/mirror back to him his own feminine side. (remember the Peter Gabriel video I uploaded with the line "maybe he's trying to find his womanly side - let him feel")
Patti
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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:44 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Ah... I think here's the formal proof why Christopher was wrong regarding associating fire & earth with "more outgoing" (= hot):

Air is primarily wet and secondarily hot.
Fire is primarily hot and secondarily dry.
Earth is primarily dry and secondarily cold.
Water is primarily cold and secondarily wet.


Christopher has never said that earth is hot.

You keep bringing up Christopher's use of the word 'expressive' and 'outwardly directed' for earth and claiming he is incorrect, has made a mistake, has violated his own principles, violated earth archetype, violated yin/yang etc etc. I have explained this to you before, but you decline to take on board.....

In his chapter about Li & Chi - principles vs manifestations, in addition to saying that earth and water are passive (yin) elements and fire and air are active (yang) Christopher uses the words expressive and outwardly directed for earth and fire because:

The most visible, tangible part of you (ie your earth) is your physical body.
We interact physically in the world via our physical body.
The first thing that is noticeable about you is your earth (your physical, tangible body shape & form) and your fire (your actions), whereas your water and air (emotions and thoughts) remain hidden.
In that way, earth is expressive and outwardly directed.


Lynn, coincidently I found the following 2 pictures at this website:
http://www.thenrgroup.net/member/MRO/OCT/OCT-64.htm

Can you find the (white) words 'inward looking' and 'outward looking' in both pictures below? And the (yellow) word 'Expression' in the bottom picture?


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 OCT-64_1

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 OCT-64_2


Then we can also connect the 4 temperaments the 4 elements as follows:

air = sanguine
water = phlegmatic
earth = melancholic
fire = choleric

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Temperaments#History_and_the_ancient_four_temperaments


Finally, if we combine all these principles... the result is interesting: we see that earth & water get linked with 'inward looking', and fire & air get linked with 'outward looking'; and ... the word 'expression' is directly associated with Air only (Fire is more a matter of 'application').

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Elemen11


Lynn, do you recognize how this proofs my point?

Air (sanguine temperament) & Fire (choleric temperament) are linked with 'outward looking'; while Earth (melancholic temperament) and Water (phlegmatic temperament) get connected with 'inward looking'.


By the way, in this 'Archive for the Personality Category' the words 'outgoing' and 'expressive' are linked only with the element... air (= sanguine)!

This implicates that Air is much more 'outward directed' than Earth; because Earth stays where it is due to it's inert quality... while Air goes everywhere whenever it can!

Therefore it's a fundamental and philosophic mistake to associate earth with the words 'more outwardly' because this suggests a dynamic process directed towards the outside. Because earth is crystalized & static:= inert; earth is not moving- and not directed anywhere.

Only Fire & Air are 'outward looking'... and 'outward directed'.
And Air is the most 'expressive' & talkative element: the archetype of Mercurius has this quality as well!

And therefore, I think this very precisely explains why Johnny's reference for the Air quadrant is very specific regarding the words 'public stage', 'world stage' and 'outer world'.

(Fully supported by Duke's guideline!)

wave


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:59 am; edited 1 time in total

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:54 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]


One of Mangoldt's student authors has described the vertical division a litle bit more clearly. Mathias Mala writes in his work "Esoterisches Handlesen" the following on page 31 regarding the You-site (Du-seite):

"Trotzdem liegt dieses Du nicht ausserhalb des Menschen und seiner Innerlichtkeit. Es ist viel mehr ein dem Egozentrum ferner Bereich. In ihm liegt das den Menschen Gemeinsame, das archetypische und psychologische Grundmuster. Auf dieser Seite zeigt sich aber auch unsere Fähigkeit, mit dem uns Fernen und scheinbar Gegenüberstehenden in Kommunikation zu treten und dadurch unser Selbst zu formen. In diesem Bereich wirkt andererseits eine drängende Kraft, die die sich auf der Ich-Seite manifestierende Vitalkraft zu modifizieren versucht."

[Translated: "Nevertheless, this 'You' is not outside of man and his Inner. It is much more an area beyond the Egozentrum. It represents the similar features seen in man, the archetypal and psychologic basic pattern. This side shows also our ability to interact with the distant and seemingly opposite parties in communication, and thereby to shape our self. In this area also works a pressing force, that is trying to modify on the I-side manifesting vital force."]


Here is the translation I made:

Nevertheless this you does not lie outside of the person and its interior light-ness. It is much more the ego center furthermore area. In it, lies the person joint, the archetypal and psychological basic scenario. On this side, however also our capacity that appears to step with us distances and apparently opposing in communication and to our form through it even. In this area, a pressing power causes on the other hand to modify that the vital power tried manifesting itself on the I side

It appears to me that you have interpreted it a little incorrectly, and these subtle differences change things a lot. Such as here in my translation it is saying that it is the "ego center" and you are saying it is beyond the ego. And other such inconsistencies.
Patti
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:14 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:


Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]

another translation:
Next to the horizontal Dreiteiling of the internal Händfläche, there is it another second distribution that separates vertical, that the I side vond of the you side. This separation performs the Saturn line that springs large vertical, that in its ideal form between Venus mountain and moon mountain and climbs to the Saturn mountain. The division of the hand is symbol of the polar split characterizing all created in I and you, Subject and Object, active and passive, in man-like schöpfiches power and feminine susceptibility. This split alienates the creature the creator, separates the person from the person, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation the entire despair and sorrow full isolation of the person that must search again and again for its against pole, its supplement and redemption in the other


It probably would have saved a few weeks of time if you had posted these quotes earlier.

Although there is a description of I and You, the "you" is only the mirror - the opposite - one seeks to balance within themselves or within a relationship. It is not in this sense the 'public' per se, but about opposites and inner balance.

<edit>
I is the inner self and you is the outer self only in the sense the I is the 'me' inside the little baby reaching out with it's fisted hand - opening and closing it's fingers with outer world skills saying "me! me! me!"


Last edited by Patti on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:19 am; edited 1 time in total
Patti
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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:19 am

Patti wrote:
Here is the translation I made:

Nevertheless this you does not lie outside of the person and its interior light-ness. It is much more the ego center furthermore area. In it, lies the person joint, the archetypal and psychological basic scenario. On this side, however also our capacity that appears to step with us distances and apparently opposing in communication and to our form through it even. In this area, a pressing power causes on the other hand to modify that the vital power tried manifesting itself on the I side

It appears to me that you have interpreted it a little incorrectly, and these subtle differences change things a lot. Such as here in my translation it is saying that it is the "ego center" and you are saying it is beyond the ego. And other such inconsistencies.

No Patti, your translation is incorrect... of course the Ego gets linked with the Ich ('I') side of the hand.

By the way, the first quote als says:

"Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit."

This implicates:

Ich ('I') = subject = active = male creative force
Du ('You') = object = passive = female reception

Ego = subject = I = Ich


PS. The German translation of Freud's Super-Ego is... Über-Ich: again, Ego = Ich!!! Banana waving

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:21 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Here is the translation I made:

Nevertheless this you does not lie outside of the person and its interior light-ness. It is much more the ego center furthermore area. In it, lies the person joint, the archetypal and psychological basic scenario. On this side, however also our capacity that appears to step with us distances and apparently opposing in communication and to our form through it even. In this area, a pressing power causes on the other hand to modify that the vital power tried manifesting itself on the I side

It appears to me that you have interpreted it a little incorrectly, and these subtle differences change things a lot. Such as here in my translation it is saying that it is the "ego center" and you are saying it is beyond the ego. And other such inconsistencies.

No Patti, your translation is incorrect... of course the Ego gets linked with the Ich ('I') side of the hand.

By the way, the first quote als says:

"Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit."

This implicates:

Ich ('I') = subject = active = male creative force
Du ('You') = object = passive = female reception

Ego = subject = I = Ich


PS. The German translation of Freud's Super-Ego is... Über-Ich: again, Ego = Ich!!! Banana waving

Well, scratch if my translation is incorrect - why did you just agree with it?? You had originally said it was beyond the ego, not the ego. "[Translated: "Nevertheless, this 'You' is not outside of man and his Inner. It is much more an area beyond the Egozentrum.

To go further:
"In it, lies the person joint, the archetypal and psychological basic scenario." This is the description for "you" and not the "I".

Nothing I've read in any of the translations is implying that this I and You is relating to anyone other than the divided Self. Or Self divided into Consciousness (You) and Ego/Persona/Shadow (I)
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:01 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:


Then we can also connect the 4 temperaments the 4 elements as follows:

air = sanguine
water = phlegmatic
earth = melancholic
fire = choleric

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Temperaments#History_and_the_ancient_four_temperaments


Finally, if we combine all these principles... the result is interesting: we see that earth & water get linked with 'inward looking', and fire & air get linked with 'outward looking'; and ... the word 'expression' is directly associated with Air only (Fire is more a matter of 'application').

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Elemen11


Lynn, do you recognize how this proofs my point?

Air (sanguine temperament) & Fire (choleric temperament) are linked with 'outward looking'; while Earth (melancholic temperament) and Water (phlegmatic temperament) get connected with 'inward looking'.


By the way, in this 'Archive for the Personality Category' the words 'outgoing' and 'expressive' are linked only with the element... air (= sanguine)!

This implicates that Air is much more 'outward directed' than Earth; because Earth stays where it is due to it's inert quality... while Air goes everywhere whenever it can!

Therefore it's a fundamental and philosophic mistake to associate earth with the words 'more outwardly' because this suggests a dynamic process directed towards the outside. Because earth is crystalized & static:= inert; earth is not moving- and not directed anywhere.

Only Fire & Air are 'outward looking'... and 'outward directed'.
And Air is the most 'expressive' & talkative element: the archetype of Mercurius has this quality as well!

And therefore, I think this very precisely explains why Johnny's reference for the Air quadrant is very specific regarding the words 'public stage', 'world stage' and 'outer world'.

(Fully supported by Duke's guideline!)

wave

This is how I would arrange the chart you uploaded above:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Chart_11
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:46 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

This implicates that Air is much more 'outward directed' than Earth; because Earth stays where it is due to it's inert quality... while Air goes everywhere whenever it can!

Therefore it's a fundamental and philosophic mistake to associate earth with the words 'more outwardly' because this suggests a dynamic process directed towards the outside. Because earth is crystalized & static:= inert; earth is not moving- and not directed anywhere.

[/color]

According to this description of Earth - it should have been assigned to the hypothenar area as this is the most inert and static quadrant of the palm - or even of the hand. It is the only quadrant without a direct-able digit.

A characteristic assigned to where I placed the index is "distrust suspicion" and the most recent report on 2D:4D is that a short index compared to a long ring finger related to distrust and suspicion.

The Elements according to Patti flower
Earth = Lower Ulnar
Water = Upper Ulnar
Fire = Lower Radial
Air = Upper Radial
Vertical Division = between middle and ring - full hand
Horizontal Division = Across Mars mounts


Last edited by Patti on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:49 am

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Quadra10

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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:44 am

Patti wrote:
Well, scratch if my translation is incorrect - why did you just agree with it?? You had originally said it was beyond the ego, not the ego. "

To go further:
"In it, lies the person joint, the archetypal and psychological basic scenario." This is the description for "you" and not the "I".

Nothing I've read in any of the translations is implying that this I and You is relating to anyone other than the divided Self. Or Self divided into Consciousness (You) and Ego/Persona/Shadow (I)

Patti, I am wondering: did you ever get any German lessons at all?

In your You-side translation you suggested that the You-side is the Ego:

Patti wrote:
... Such as here in my translation it is saying that it is the "ego center" and you are saying it is beyond the ego.

You've mistranslated even some of the simplest things, because: Ich = Ego.
And therefore it is also not surprizing that you disagree regarding my translations.

In your 2nd translation probably include likewise mistakes... you presented various non-readable sentences, and you were also not able to translate some of the German words.


Again Patti, from the start of this topic I have described the full hand as a representation of the mind. I have never suggested that the ulnar side of the hand is 'outsde' us, nor did I suggest that 'You' is found outside us. Of course not!

In my first post of this topic I have stared describing [u>the full hand in terms of 'identity':

"The above implicates that in a neutral vocabulary (not associated with a specific religion nor a specific philosophy) one might say that in the field of hand reading the thumb can be said to represent the 'core-identity' of a person."

And in my 3th post I have presented a picture describing how each finger presents a different part of our identity.

[img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f12/15/45/02/10/no-man10.jpg[/imb]


I have only described that the ulnar side relates more to how we interact with the outer world than the thumb side.

So, your conclusion below is probably based on a combination of your own mistranslation of the German words + misreading my words.

Patti wrote:
It probably would have saved a few weeks of time if you had posted these quotes earlier.

Although there is a description of I and You, the "you" is only the mirror - the opposite - one seeks to balance within themselves or within a relationship. It is not in this sense the 'public' per se, but about opposites and inner balance.

<edit>
I is the inner self and you is the outer self only in the sense the I is the 'me' inside the little baby reaching out with it's fisted hand - opening and closing it's fingers with outer world skills saying "me! me! me!"

Patti, it appears that you have entered some kind of state of mind... where you tend to disagree about almost anything that I have posted.

However, I can end this post with a positive note; because I really like the first 11 words of your final sentence in the quote above:

"I is the inner self and you is the outer self..."


Thanks!

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Post  Lynn Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:51 am

I wrote a long reply and my computer turned itself off and rebooted before I hit send. Sad I need to get it fixed!

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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:19 pm

Patti wrote:

This is how I would arrange the chart you uploaded above:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Chart_11

Oh...nooo! Patti... it's a mystery to me why you decided to delete the hot/cold + dry/wet dimensions and the 4 elements, because these are actuallyl considered as connected, the details are described here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Temperaments#History_and_the_ancient_four_temperaments



Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Manfred Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:03 pm

Dear Martin,

you asked: “Do you know whether there is any direct connection between the work of chirologist Julius Spier(who's work is psychoanalytic oriented) and the work of chirologist Ursula von Mangoldt (who's works is more oriented on esoteric psychology)?”

At this time I have a very lot of different work and researching, therefore it’s not possible to follow or join in a discussion, but I’ll answer your question in two parts. Later I’ll write a short note about the thumb though I only had a look at the “thumb thread”. I hope, this will answer your first question.

a) The late Ursula von Mangoldt was one of the two leading German hand readers between 1950 – around 60/70 in Germany. She wrote a lot of books about it. I think her earlier b. are more interesting and concentrated than the newer – without going more in details. She’s writing in a very good language style. I read several books of her, but I’m sorry, I didn’t learn really something from her, though she was very well sophisticated.


b) Now some excerpts from her book: “Gebrochene Lebenslinie”, Herder Verlag Fr./Br., 1981.

“I was born on 3th of November 1904 in Berlin…

On this came down a little new mortal crying in the world who had two very different genetic make-ups. My father came down from a long row of ancestors of Spain. In his family were theologians, businessmen and bankers. Also Jacob Andreä, the author of the “Chymische Hochtzeit” and who lived in the 16th century belongs to them…(p. 11)

My mother belonged to the family of politician Walter Rathenau. She was Jewish and to her family belonged the Rabbi and mystic Moses ben Nachmann, who live in the 12th century….(p. 12)

“The best chirologer who lived in my time in Berlin was Julius Spier. He was recommended to my mother by C. G. Jung. In Berlin he gave his very first lecture about hands in our house.
I listened to him in a very amazing way, because he developed his very own method. This included his big medial gift that played an important role.

…I’m not a medial person. I’ve tried during (my ?) lessons and books to verify my statements very exact….For this there is needed an integral knowledge of man and to study psychological and antropological questions.” p. 163

I will read your last vote before this weekend.

With best wishes
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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:09 pm


Hi Manfred, thank you for sharing this! Thumbs up!





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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:37 pm

Lynn wrote:I wrote a long reply and my computer turned itself off and rebooted before I hit send. Sad I need to get it fixed!

I am sorry to hear this Lynn.

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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:38 pm


If I was asked to connect the 5 fingers with my picture then I would position the thumb in the center of my picture + the other four fingers at the four sides of the picture below.

And I think this picture illustrates nicely in a large perspective how the thumb has a very special role & position inside the hand!

(I think the picture below is consistent with the Yin-Yang principles used in Elemental Chirology... Lynn, how does the picture below appear to you?)


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Elemen13

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Post  Martijn (admin) Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:30 pm


cheers This Wikipedia table describes the principles more explicit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-factor_models_of_personality#Table_of_Theories_and_Instruments_using_Extroversion_and_People-Task-orientation

- Earth = introverted task oriented (+ melancholic temperament)
- Water = introverted relationship oriented (+ phlegmatic temperament)
- Fire = extroverted task oriented (+ choleric temperament)
- Air = extroverted relationship oriented (+ sanguinic temperament)

This shows how the outer ulnar side of the hand (= water palmar quadrant + air palmar quadrant + pinky finger) can be understood as the 'You' side because it is 'relationship oriented'.

thinking Maybe one could also describe it as the 'We'-side of hand... because the 'You' side is of course only a part of the mind itself!

And this also shows how regarding the radial fingers (index finger + middle finger) are more 'introverted' than the ulnar fingers (pinky + ring finger). This side of the hand is much more related to the needs & desires of the individual itself. This explains how this side of the hand got associated with the Ego and is described as the 'I' side of the hand.

Finally I could at that I perceive the thumb as the 'controler' of both sides of the hand; that is why I have associated it with Jung's concept of the Self.


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Hand-j20

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Post  Kiran.Katawa Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:57 pm

Hi Martijn,

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:The most visible, tangible part of you (ie your earth) is your physical body.
We interact physically in the world via our physical body.
The first thing that is noticeable about you is your earth (your physical, tangible body shape & form) and your fire (your actions), whereas your water and air (emotions and thoughts) remain hidden.
In that way, earth is expressive and outwardly directed.[/b]


Lynn, do you recognize how this proofs my point?

Air (sanguine temperament) & Fire (choleric temperament) are linked with 'outward looking'; while Earth (melancholic temperament) and Water (phlegmatic temperament) get connected with 'inward looking'.

This implicates that Air is much more 'outward directed' than Earth; because Earth stays where it is due to it's inert quality... while Air goes everywhere whenever it can!

Therefore it's a fundamental and philosophic mistake to associate earth with the words 'more outwardly' because this suggests a dynamic process directed towards the outside. Because earth is crystalized & static:= inert; earth is not moving- and not directed anywhere.

Only Fire & Air are 'outward looking'... and 'outward directed'.
And Air is the most 'expressive' & talkative element: the archetype of Mercurius has this quality as well!

And therefore, I think this very precisely explains why Johnny's reference for the Air quadrant is very specific regarding the words 'public stage', 'world stage' and 'outer world'.

(Fully supported by Duke's guideline!)

wave
[/color]

You have highlighted what Lynn has written, but, not associating it correctly.
The philosophical association of earth with outward movement and the way you're interpreting it to outward movement are different.

Refer this wiki link here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_(classical_element)
This is what it says: "It was commonly associated with qualities of heaviness, matter and the terrestrial world".
It is in terms of the matter and territory that earth is outgoing and not w.r.t. the movement to distal places as is case with Air.

Re-air: This is what Jen says in her blog: http://godgivenglyphs.com/category/blog/
"observe, investigate, analyse, theorise and research, all air element principles."
All these are inner qualities only. Yes, communication is something which is happening out there and it reaches to mass people. It is the meaning which is INSIDE, which is with-in those in-visible, non-touchable words, in those vibrations of the air which represent the air element. The words when said/received are "analyzed" and "understood" with a common background. If I write here - "slkjflsjdflajsdfoijojwoe", I am physically transferring some bits and bytes to all the readers here. There is no inside meaning in it. That's where the AIR element is missing, though the text is reaching to all.
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Post  Manfred Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:23 pm

Dear Martijn and friends,

first of all I would recommend don't mix together the 4 classical or astrological elements with others or 5 elements. Further divide the palm from the fingers. And then, don't use elements for the fingers, better or classic are the planets (some of them don't belong to more than one element). My experience from counsellings not from theories are: Even the calling of one planet to a special finger (without Saturn) isn't always clear.

There is also no need to use a too fixed system for palmistry anyway. Because always busy
here a very quick diagramm which may be helpfull for the daily practise.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Handsc10

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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:35 pm

Manfred wrote:Dear Martijn and friends,

first of all I would recommend don't mix together the 4 classical or astrological elements with others or 5 elements. Further divide the palm from the fingers. And then, don't use elements for the fingers, better or classic are the planets (some of them don't belong to more than one element). My experience from counsellings not from theories are: Even the calling of one planet to a special finger (without Saturn) isn't always clear.

There is also no need to use a too fixed system for palmistry anyway. Because always busy
here a very quick diagramm which may be helpfull for the daily practise.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Handsc10

Hi Manfred!! wave

Thanks for sharing a diagram! I'm unable to see what you wrote in the yellow color.

Your divisions appear fairly traditional and they are what Martijn has spent nearly a month arguing on his own against.



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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:42 pm

Manfred,
I also agree that the elements shouldn't be assigned to the fingers.
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:16 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Oh...nooo! Patti... it's a mystery to me why you decided to delete the hot/cold + dry/wet dimensions and the 4 elements, because these are actuallyl considered as connected, the details are described here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Temperaments#History_and_the_ancient_four_temperaments




I was keeping it simple and showing the flow and process (as I see it) using the charts that you provided. It's easy to see both incoming and outgoing via the thumb as representative of the Self. Follow the arrows.

I have never agreed with the assignment of the Elements from the first time I was introduced to them in Dukes' book and a few years later when I met the remaining active members of the C. Soc. at the Cafe online. Then they were still deciding what to keep and what to lose because they had lost their trust in Terrance Dukes because of the exposed lies. He said he brought the system from Asia but instead borrowed from Gettings and made up the rest. Apparently to match fractal energy with his endless boxes (of 4 in a system of 5).

The so called principles have only been anecdotally verified as applied to the hand. The elements were arbitrarily assigned to sections of the hands.

I could never use them as presented as saying things like the index finger was Water seemed 'just plain wrong'.

Yet, I have to admit, when Martijn pointed out the static nature of Earth, plus my own awareness of the hypothenar and its structure - it makes sense to place Earth there. Once that is done, the other 3 were obvious.

The physical vitality is like an inner furnace. Earth as physical is only a body and it could be a dead body. But there is a fire withing. We (physically) inhale cool air, but exhale warm, moist air. We are Earth, Air, Fire and Water as a machine.

Air is the mind and our initial awareness is reaching out and touching with our index finger and then the other fingers.

Water is our emotions and social communication and creativity come from what we feel.

Fire is our fuel and energy to express ourselves into the world and to consume the world.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Quadra11

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 30 Chart_11
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Post  Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:21 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
In my first post of this topic I have stared describing the full hand in terms of 'identity':

"The above implicates that in a neutral vocabulary (not associated with a specific religion nor a specific philosophy) one might say that in the field of hand reading the thumb can be said to represent the 'core-identity' of a person."

[/color]

Martijn scratch How can you, with a straight face and serious tone, refer to your first post for any reason at all as to your initial thoughts. You've done this several times. Your first post has been edited 15 times! Shocked


lol!

p.s.: My apologies if you feel I've been nitpicking the errors in your posts. It's a tough job, but someone's go to do it.
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Post  Manfred Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:59 pm

Hy Patty,

it's not in all parts exact traditionally if you look at it and it really took me a long time to get it for shure. The yellow finger section means air, the yellow in the Mercury means traditionally communikation and additionally self-depiction (house 3).

Pluto (house 8) means in my interpretation: Fixed models.
Green Venus: House 2. Green Mercury in the thumb: House 6. The top phalanxe on the thumb: House 1.
The thumbsite: AC (ascendent), the opposite DC (descendent).
Therefore the Apollon: Partnership or encounter (what comes as the You - thumb as I).

I don't use the zodiac because in the hand we find the indiviualised zodiac: The houses.

Therefore for me some Indians that use it for the finger sections are wrong because the zidoac is the macro kosm and the hand is the micro cosm.

Please don't await long discussions, that's what I feard. But try it simply in practise and you'll find it right.

Allways pleased to hear from you.
Manfred


Last edited by Manfred on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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