Modern Hand Reading Forum - Discover the language of your hands: palm reading & palmistry forum!
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Your opinion & share...
Latest topics
» Nisha Ghai
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:50 pm by daskell

» Absolutely non-sense career till now
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:32 am by shoaibkhan

» Fate Destiny Line -
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:21 pm by Stefania

» VIII - Palmistry books TOP 100 - listed by 'Amazon Sales Rank'!
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:34 am by Magda van Dijk-Rijneke

» Stewart Culin - Palmistry in China and Japan
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:53 am by Stijn

» Herbert Giles - Palmistry in China
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:20 am by Stijn

» life line forks
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:54 am by Stijn

» Astro-Palmistry files
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Sun May 30, 2021 1:17 pm by Stijn

» unique lines on Saturn mount
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:21 am by rashmi_rh

» Palm reading - 25/M right handed
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:48 am by andre123

» Relationship line?
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:13 pm by ketty

» Line from moon mount joining the fate line means
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:50 am by pravin kumar

» Vertical lines on Venus mount.
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:05 pm by pravin kumar

» Searching for professional case studies
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:42 pm by chindiaper

» Read my palm
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:04 am by jchenwing

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Who is online?
In total there are 27 users online :: 0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 27 Guests

None

[ View the whole list ]


Most users ever online was 302 on Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:06 pm
Moderators & partners

• Discover the Modern Hand Reading Forum partners:

Would you like to see your website listed?

Modern Hand Reading Forum Partners

Pointing finger: check this out!

Statistics
We have 5934 registered users
The newest registered user is VivekThota

Our users have posted a total of 47459 messages in 4925 subjects
Top posting users this month
No user

Top posting users this week
No user

Recommendations

• The FREE hand reading services at the Modern Hand Reading Forum are being continued in 2019 with the assistance of Google adsense!


Pointing finger: check this out!



Google+
MAJOR HAND READING SYNONYMS
Palmistry, Palm Reading, Hand Analysis, Chirology & Chiromancy.

Learn how to read hands according the Modern Hand Reading paradigm & you can use this forum as your palm reading guide!

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

+12
Manfred
guypalm
Sucom
anithapalm
knox gillespie
Kiran.Katawa
Christopher Jones
Parender
Lynn
RishiRahul
Patti
Martijn (admin)
16 posters

Page 38 of 43 Previous  1 ... 20 ... 37, 38, 39 ... 43  Next

Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:32 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, I have no idea what you are talking about that I have 'forgotten'.

Fact is that Christopher has not adopted Dukes perspective fully... because only Dukes talks about public and private, and only Dukes follows the Yin-Yang principles (just like Fincham does).

PS. Don't worry, I understand that you are done with that part of the discussion - but it would be helpful if you would end it by pointing out what you have in mind regarding what I have 'forgotten' - according your perception. So far I don't think that I have anything forgotten like you suggested.

Oh well if you haven't forgotten, maybe you didn't even know??? Oh...nooo!
Christopher was describing the (reasoning behind the) quadrant principles as presented by his teacher, Dukes, and was fully supported by Dukes.
You are wrong, as I've said before, Christopher also follows yin-yang principles.
You are correct that only Dukes (+ Fincham) talks about (some form of) air = 'public'.

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
Lynn
Lynn

Posts : 2460
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:46 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Hand-412

Just wanted to end my part of the discussion with showing you what I *agree* with on your chart. flower

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 M10

wave
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:26 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, I have no idea what you are talking about that I have 'forgotten'.

Fact is that Christopher has not adopted Dukes perspective fully... because only Dukes talks about public and private, and only Dukes follows the Yin-Yang principles (just like Fincham does).

PS. Don't worry, I understand that you are done with that part of the discussion - but it would be helpful if you would end it by pointing out what you have in mind regarding what I have 'forgotten' - according your perception. So far I don't think that I have anything forgotten like you suggested.

Oh well if you haven't forgotten, maybe you didn't even know??? Oh...nooo!
Christopher was describing the (reasoning behind the) quadrant principles as presented by his teacher, Dukes, and was fully supported by Dukes.
You are wrong, as I've said before, Christopher also follows yin-yang principles.
You are correct that only Dukes (+ Fincham) talks about (some form of) air = 'public'.

Okay Lynn, thank you for sharing that.


PS. Sounds like two people supporting each others work... who are both not aware of the conflicting principles being used.

Because Dukes & Fincham clearly describe the air quadrant as 'public' (not 'some form of'... because Johnny litterally uses the word 'outer world') and Jones describes it as 'inner world'.

I think it's hard (if not impossible) to find anything that can be associated with 'public' (Dukes & Fincham) than can also be described as 'inner world' (Jones).

And this contradiction is explict confirmed by Fincham's work (because he describes the air quadrant in all his 3 books to represent the 'outer world'... while Jones describes it to represent the 'inner world'.

Lynn, by the way... I think things would have become much more easy if you simply had acknowledged this clear contradiction, your latest words sounds like you are suggesting that there is no inconsistency at all - while 'public' can by principle (probably) always be associated with 'outer world'.

In my view it's irrelevant if they have supported each other's work, because they probably were never aware of this factual inconsistency... !

(I am aware that I really needed Fincham's books to be sure that we are confronted with an inconsistancy between Dukes+Fincham's work & Jones work)

wave

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:50 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Okay Lynn, thank you for sharing that.

PS. Sounds like two people supporting each others work... who are both not aware of the conflicting principles being used.

Because Dukes & Fincham clearly describe the air quadrant as 'public' (not 'some form of'... because Johnny litterally uses the word 'outer world') and Jones describes it as 'inner world'.

I think it's hard (if not impossible) to find anything that can be associated with 'public' (Dukes & Fincham) than can also be described as 'inner world' (Jones).

And this contradiction is explict confirmed by Fincham's work (because he describes the air quadrant in all his 3 books to represent the 'outer world'... while Jones describes it to represent the 'inner world'.

Lynn, by the way... I think things would have become much more easy if you simply had acknowledged this clear contradiction, your latest words sounds like you are suggesting that there is no inconsistency at all - while 'public' can by principle (probably) always be associated with 'outer world'.

In my view it's irrelevant if they have supported each other's work, because they probably were never aware of this factual inconsistency... !

(I am aware that I really needed Fincham's books to be sure that we are confronted with an inconsistancy between Dukes+Fincham's work & Jones work)

wave

Oh Martijn, if you think they were not aware of each others ideas, and you think you understand it better than these three people who worked together for many years and who all understood the elements inside-out from every perspective.... there is nothing I can say that will make you think otherwise. (please also be aware that you have only a small proportion of the numerous books, journals & course-work that were published by Dukes, Jones, Fincham & C.Soc).

___________________________________________
Lynn
www.handanalysis.co.uk
Lynn
Lynn

Posts : 2460
Join date : 2010-07-24
Location : Devon, England

http://www.handanalysis.co.uk

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:33 pm

Lynn wrote:

Oh Martijn, if you think they were not aware of each others ideas, and you think you understand it better than these three people who worked together for many years and who all understood the elements inside-out from every perspective.... there is nothing I can say that will make you think otherwise. (please also be aware that you have only a small proportion of the numerous books, journals & course-work that were published by Dukes, Jones, Fincham & C.Soc).

Sorry Lynn, I think I have only judged the works of people based on what they actually write - and I think the words in their writings speak for themselves.

You have attempted to suggest that via some kind of 'experimental' reasoning (about leaning fingers - which you later sort of stepped-away from) that Johnny's writings can match with your ideas regarding your perception that the full ulnar side of the hand represent the inner world. But I think it was obvious as soon as we arrived at this point that Dukes & Fincham's writings for the air quadrant (+ Johnny's 'outer mars' at the ulnar side) do not support this idea at all.

You asked Johnny to explain this, and his short answer confirmed what he writes in his books (het e.g. mentioned 'outer world'). And now you are suggesting that I have misunderstood his and others writings?

I have not claimed that I understand things better than any of the authors, I have only described the implications of their writings - e.g. by pointing out thate there are some fundamental inconsistencies between the three 5 Elemental Chirology authors (directly resulting from Christopher's quadrantial guideline - which we found deeply hidden in a document that only had the purpose of private circulation... EDIT: and you described that you could not find any other passage where Christopher presented the part of his guideline that I have disputed).

But I do claim that before this discussion started... probably NOBODY was aware of this at all!


I think we arrived at the end of this discussion, but I want everyone to know that I would recommend anyone to read Fincham's works if they want to learn more about the elemental system - his innovative vocabulary is fully consistent with the much more detailed work presented by his teacher Dukes in 1987.

And I am happy to see that Fincham is for quite a while probably most succesful (western) author in the international field of hand reading.


wave

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Sucom Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:49 pm

Let me get this right - so basically you are saying that the thumb represents the inner essence of man and that you have reached this conclusion based on the elemental system only?

Edit: Or to put it another way, your assumptions about the positioning of the inner and outer areas of the hands are based on various elemental hand readers subjective perceptions of how the elements earth, air, fire and water may be depicted in both our hands and in a physical world?

Sucom

Posts : 79
Join date : 2010-07-25

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:38 pm

Sucom wrote:Let me get this right - so basically you are saying that the thumb represents the inner essence of man and that you have reached this conclusion based on the elemental system only?

Edit: Or to put it another way, your assumptions about the positioning of the inner and outer areas of the hands are based on various elemental hand readers subjective perceptions of how the elements earth, air, fire and water may be depicted in both our hands and in a physical world?
No Sue, not at all! confused

I wonder why you arrived at that thought, because in my introduction post I present an overview of the origins of my position regarding the thumb; in my introduction post I didn't even mention the elemental system nor the Yin-Yang philosophy!!, see: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man

NOTICE: The first picture at the top of the introduction post was actually added in my latest edit for that introduction post, and please be aware that all preceeding pictures are presented at the bottom of that post: see picture no. 1 to no.7!

So, when I created this topic only this picture was attached to the introduction post:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Thumb-10


Sue, this discussion guided me to the point where I recoginzed the fundamental significance of the Yin-Yang philosopy regarding my position (later confirmed explicit by the guidelines presented by Dukes & Fincham for the palmar quadrants + Fincham's guideline for the inner/radial and outer/ulnar mounts of mars). So I only perceive those principles as additional support for my position... but certainly not the basis.

The origins of my position directly relate to the coginitive tridinity: feeling - thinking - will: the my picture above!

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:49 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:



I think we arrived at the end of this discussion, but I want everyone to know that I would recommend anyone to read Fincham's works if they want to learn more about the elemental system - his innovative vocabulary is fully consistent with the much more detailed work presented by his teacher Dukes in 1987.

And I am happy to see that Fincham is for quite a while probably most succesful (western) author in the international field of hand reading.


wave

Probably correct, but I think you have seriously damaged future sales for him. We'll compare the numbers in another year and see. I don't think Johnny himself would be pleased to be told his work is more like the disgraced Duke's work than his teacher, Christopher.

I think you have ignored Christopher's guidelines:

http://www.cheirology.net/basics/fivelevels.htm

http://www.cheirology.net/basics/activepassive.htm

Oddly, you have tried to place huge emphasis on the hand divisions when they actually have only a passing significance that is added to the huge catalog of items to blend into the combination. Hand divisions are a very minor aspect of hand reading and can even be ignored when looking at the whole hand. You have given them far more applied *meaning* than ever intended by any authority in the palm reading world.

wave
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:02 pm

Patti wrote:
Probably correct, but I think you have seriously damaged future sales for him. ...

Patti, I have hardly changed my positioned regarding Fincham's work... apart from that I now actually like it much more than I did before this discussion.

And actually, you are 'projecting' your thoughts about Fincham's work on me... because you described yourself that you can no longer recommend Johnny Fincham's work!

(So, I think it is quite silly to see your expectation that my expressed SUPPORT for Fincham's work could damage his future sales... rolling on the floor )


PS. I don't expect any of ours discussion to have much influence on Johnny's selling rates, but if we continue talking about his work... I expect that his sales rate could actually improve.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Sucom Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:09 pm

Feeling, thinking, will......

Here is another possibility - 'Your experience in the world of physical matter flows outward from the center of your inner psyche. Then you perceive this experience. Exterior events, circumstances and conditions are meant as a kind of living feedback. Altering the state of the psyche automatically alters the physical circumstances.

There is no other valid way of changing physical events. It might help if you imagine an inner living dimension within yourself in which you create, in miniature psychic form, all the exterior conditions that you know. Simply put, you do exactly this. Your thoughts, feelings and mental pictures can be called incipient exterior events for in one way or another each of these is materialised into physical reality.'

Now, I have said that I think you are wrong about where you have positioned the inner and outer areas. I have also suggested that the whole hand can and should be viewed as inner AND outer; that the two cannot be separated. I still believe this and I would still offer it as a possibility. However, if I were to do this, would you then suggest to me that I am finding support in this book that I have quoted? Would you say that I am being subjective? Because this is how I see your statement that you have gained support from Johnny's ideas in his book.

The above is a truth for me, but I can see that it would most likely NOT be a truth for you. Who is to say who is right or who is wrong? But at the end of the day, does it matter anyway, because we all HAVE to live by our own truths?


Sucom

Posts : 79
Join date : 2010-07-25

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Sucom Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:13 pm

What I was trying to say is that you are suggesting feeling first, then thinking, then will power to materialise the feeling and then the thinking.

Another way to look at this is to say - you create (thinking), then you use your will power to create (will) and then you perceive (feeling).

How does that compare to your own philosophy?

Sucom

Posts : 79
Join date : 2010-07-25

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:16 pm

Patti wrote:
I think you have ignored Christopher's guidelines:

http://www.cheirology.net/basics/fivelevels.htm

http://www.cheirology.net/basics/activepassive.htm

Oddly, you have tried to place huge emphasis on the hand divisions when they actually have only a passing significance that is added to the huge catalog of items to blend into the combination. Hand divisions are a very minor aspect of hand reading and can even be ignored when looking at the whole hand. You have given them far more applied *meaning* than ever intended by any authority in the palm reading world.
wave

Patti, what are you talking about? Your accusation directed at me is not substantiated at all!

(By the way, the word 'quadrant' is not even mentioned in those pages; Christopher does not present any guidelines for the quadrants at all on his website)

And actually... it appear that you are suggesting that in Christopher's work the position of the quadrants is only a 'minor aspect', but in Christopher's "Studies for Intermediate Diploma'' he does suggest that the quadrantial analysis plays a major role in 'vocational analysis'!


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Sucom Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:17 pm

Then I could suggest: Does the fact that words have been written in a book, as opposed to communicated in any other sense, make them a truth? You used Johnny's and Dukes' written words a 'truth' in support of your argument. I have also quoted a book, which I used to substantiate my truth.......

The art of communication is so profound................

Sucom

Posts : 79
Join date : 2010-07-25

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:29 pm

Sucom wrote:Then I could suggest: Does the fact that words have been written in a book, as opposed to communicated in any other sense, make them a truth? You used Johnny's and Dukes' written words a 'truth' in support of your argument. I have also quoted a book, which I used to substantiate my truth.......

The art of communication is so profound................

No Sue, I only talked about the words written in the books.

In general, in my view one should better not associate a fundamental discussion about the concepts used in the books with 'truth' finding. In my view it takes results from a well designed research design before one can actually start putting things in the perspective for the purpose of 'truth finding'.


PS. Sue, did you notice the materials that I have shared in response to your request regarding a definition for 'inner world' and 'outer world'?

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Sucom Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:36 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Sucom wrote:Then I could suggest: Does the fact that words have been written in a book, as opposed to communicated in any other sense, make them a truth? You used Johnny's and Dukes' written words a 'truth' in support of your argument. I have also quoted a book, which I used to substantiate my truth.......

The art of communication is so profound................

No Sue, I only talked about the words written in the books.

In general, in my view one should better not associate a fundamental discussion about the concepts used in the books with 'truth' finding. In my view it takes results from a well designed research design before one can actually start putting things in the perspective for the purpose of 'truth finding'.


PS. Sue, did you notice the materials that I have shared in response to your request regarding a definition for 'inner world' and 'outer world'?

Do you mean being objective about someone else's subjectivity?

Sucom

Posts : 79
Join date : 2010-07-25

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:42 pm

I wrote Johnny, described this discussion, and asked him if he would state clearly if he thought the upper ulnar side of the hand was more public than the upper radial side of the hand.

I hope he will respond and help clear up any doubts.

sunny
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:45 pm

Sucom wrote:Feeling, thinking, will......

Here is another possibility - 'Your experience in the world of physical matter flows outward from the center of your inner psyche. Then you perceive this experience. Exterior events, circumstances and conditions are meant as a kind of living feedback. Altering the state of the psyche automatically alters the physical circumstances.

There is no other valid way of changing physical events. It might help if you imagine an inner living dimension within yourself in which you create, in miniature psychic form, all the exterior conditions that you know. Simply put, you do exactly this. Your thoughts, feelings and mental pictures can be called incipient exterior events for in one way or another each of these is materialised into physical reality.'

Now, I have said that I think you are wrong about where you have positioned the inner and outer areas. I have also suggested that the whole hand can and should be viewed as inner AND outer; that the two cannot be separated. I still believe this and I would still offer it as a possibility. However, if I were to do this, would you then suggest to me that I am finding support in this book that I have quoted? Would you say that I am being subjective? Because this is how I see your statement that you have gained support from Johnny's ideas in his book.

The above is a truth for me, but I can see that it would most likely NOT be a truth for you. Who is to say who is right or who is wrong? But at the end of the day, does it matter anyway, because we all HAVE to live by our own truths?


Sucom wrote:What I was trying to say is that you are suggesting feeling first, then thinking, then will power to materialise the feeling and then the thinking.

Another way to look at this is to say - you create (thinking), then you use your will power to create (will) and then you perceive (feeling).

How does that compare to your own philosophy?

Sue, you mentioned that the aspects of inner and outer can not be seperated. I can respect that as a general (philosophic) principle... but I would like to ask you: do you think there is any way to test this principle anyhow?

My point is: even when one uses this general principle... this does not necessary implicate that this principle can also be applied to the individual parts (sides) of the hand!


PS. I recognize the polarity extraversion vs. introversion (Jung's theme is today recognized as a major theme in academic psychology AND new age psychology!) as an excellent theme to specify things for the individual parts of the hand regarding 'inner' vs. 'outer'.



___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:50 pm

Sucom wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Sucom wrote:Then I could suggest: Does the fact that words have been written in a book, as opposed to communicated in any other sense, make them a truth? You used Johnny's and Dukes' written words a 'truth' in support of your argument. I have also quoted a book, which I used to substantiate my truth.......

The art of communication is so profound................

No Sue, I only talked about the words written in the books.

In general, in my view one should better not associate a fundamental discussion about the concepts used in the books with 'truth' finding. In my view it takes results from a well designed research design before one can actually start putting things in the perspective for the purpose of 'truth finding'.


PS. Sue, did you notice the materials that I have shared in response to your request regarding a definition for 'inner world' and 'outer world'?

Do you mean being objective about someone else's subjectivity?

confused Sue, I don't understand what you are asking. You are welcome to specify.

(EDIT: By the way Sue, I hope you recognize the parallel between this theme and the earlier theme that we have discussed regarding that the heart line can be read from two sides... Sprong & Birla see the radial side of the heart line as the starting point, and scienitific research has described that the heart line starts developing from the radial side of the hand and the thumb first becomes manifest inside the prenatal hand plate, therefore I strive always to see things in more than 1 perspective)


PS. You noticed my materials regarding a definition of 'inner' and 'outer'?

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:18 pm

Sucom wrote:Feeling, thinking, will......

Here is another possibility - 'Your experience in the world of physical matter flows outward from the center of your inner psyche. Then you perceive this experience. Exterior events, circumstances and conditions are meant as a kind of living feedback. Altering the state of the psyche automatically alters the physical circumstances.

There is no other valid way of changing physical events. It might help if you imagine an inner living dimension within yourself in which you create, in miniature psychic form, all the exterior conditions that you know. Simply put, you do exactly this. Your thoughts, feelings and mental pictures can be called incipient exterior events for in one way or another each of these is materialised into physical reality.'

Now, I have said that I think you are wrong about where you have positioned the inner and outer areas. I have also suggested that the whole hand can and should be viewed as inner AND outer; that the two cannot be separated. I still believe this and I would still offer it as a possibility. However, if I were to do this, would you then suggest to me that I am finding support in this book that I have quoted? Would you say that I am being subjective? Because this is how I see your statement that you have gained support from Johnny's ideas in his book.

The above is a truth for me, but I can see that it would most likely NOT be a truth for you. Who is to say who is right or who is wrong? But at the end of the day, does it matter anyway, because we all HAVE to live by our own truths?


Hi Sue,
You, Lynn and I are in agreement in how we view the inner and outer relationships in the hands.

I agree that the two cannot be separated. The simple yin/yang symbol illustrates this with the dot of the opposite nature in the very center/core of each fullest side.

Another philosophical perspective. There are many philosophers that think that the beginning of language was the beginning of consciousness, or at least a certain kind of consciousness.

It was thought before language a person didn't have words to have a conversation in their minds. They had images, impulses, symbols, pictorial memories and 'sounds' they associated with meaning. Perhaps even thinking grunts, groans, sighs, whistles etc.

Communicating was more empathy and hive mentality until language evolved. With the evolution of language came organized groups of people working together and people becoming individuals with their own ideas. This supposedly was the beginning of the Ego or sense of self as separate from the hive/tribe.

In this sense, humans were once naively intuitively connected to each other and to the collective unconscious. They evolved to becoming individualized and now we are working to find our way back to that oneness but with the experience of having been one before and an individualized aspect of that oneness.

Thinking this way then would lead to the earlier process of awareness. I think that would be an inner feeling response in reaction to something outside of one's self. There are no words, so analyzing the awareness of something would be emotionally. As in, should the response to the awareness be fear or joy. Also, a mental comparison of this new awareness to previous similar past experiences and mental images of those. i.e. last time this thing came around it caused pain and we buried a clan member, it is a bad thing - run, or last time this happened fruit grew very fast - it is a good thing - praise the power-that-be that pours water from the sky. All of these as mental images.

Then with words came logic and rational thinking, sharing of ideas and working together for greater goals. That led to materialization of ideas.

However, I would see this as moving in both directions when applied per se to the thumb. As I see the tips of the digits relating to the inspirations, the ideas, with the middle section the thinking, and the base (in this case thenar mount) the materialization. Continue the yin/yang neverending cycle around and the materialization (thenar) can be planned (proximal section of thumb) in ways to be presented back out into the world (thumb tip).
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  RishiRahul Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:30 pm

Palmistry, like other crafts & even other sciences & other things have their 'usefulness'.

A thought:= To LEARN the subject; specially such subjects as Palmistry, one must get rid of/ overcome the 'I' in Learning.

Trying the best to keep/retain the 'I' is going towards winning/highlighting own ego...not Truth.

This thread reminds me of:= The own perception of the self & the others perception of self.

RishiRahul

RishiRahul

Posts : 109
Join date : 2011-11-22

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:53 pm

Patti wrote:I wrote Johnny, described this discussion, and asked him if he would state clearly if he thought the upper ulnar side of the hand was more public than the upper radial side of the hand.

I hope he will respond and help clear up any doubts.

sunny

I have corresponded with Johnny about this topic.

Johnny:
Anyway, my quadrant pattern would be that the area under the little (antenna) finger is relating to things 'out there' - communication, social and sexual connections, the outer world, abstraction, business and financial skills, mental energy, connecting to others. In a sense, then, I do believe it's the more public sphere, yet it also relates to sexual intimacy, which is hardly a public concern - I guess I would have to say it's other people, other worlds, what's OUT THERE .
But I wouldn't say the area under the index is exactly private, as it relates to power, ownership, ambition, self improvement and things and qualities which are a lot to do with the outer world, but they are about your PERSONAL sense of what you want from the world in terms of your ability to shape the world and the people in it to your personal ideal and to own and attain what you want. So I hope this makes my position clear.

(yesterday)Me:
I understand how you've described the public aspect and do agree that this is a strong part of the upper ulna quadrant's energy. The place where Lynn and I have been holding our ground against Martijn is that this is where the Outer World is being taken in and processed, whereas the output to the Outer World is better described from radial aspects, in particular the thumb and upper radial quadrant. Of course the energy goes both ways in all quadrants, just to different degrees, and the upper ulnar quadrant is in the 'active' zone.


(today)Johnny:
Hi Patti, we used to have an expression in the Chiro soc that the 'outer is the inner and the inner is the outer, in that the ulnar half of the palm is both far away, exotic, foreign, the unknown, the outer world, and yet also represents the imagination, the deeper parts of ourselves and the more unexplored regions of consciousness. And the Radial is the inner, known, familiar, measured and explored parts of ourselves, and yet this part of ourselves is the most exteriorised and expressed in concrete form in the outer world. So you and Lynn are correct, I think, in saying the input of the outer world is processed in the ulnar half and we activate and express this in the radial. All best wishes, JF

sunny
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:01 pm

Patti wrote:
Patti wrote:I wrote Johnny, described this discussion, and asked him if he would state clearly if he thought the upper ulnar side of the hand was more public than the upper radial side of the hand.

I hope he will respond and help clear up any doubts.

sunny

I have corresponded with Johnny about this topic.

Johnny:
Anyway, my quadrant pattern would be that the area under the little (antenna) finger is relating to things 'out there' - communication, social and sexual connections, the outer world, abstraction, business and financial skills, mental energy, connecting to others. In a sense, then, I do believe it's the more public sphere, yet it also relates to sexual intimacy, which is hardly a public concern - I guess I would have to say it's other people, other worlds, what's OUT THERE .
But I wouldn't say the area under the index is exactly private, as it relates to power, ownership, ambition, self improvement and things and qualities which are a lot to do with the outer world, but they are about your PERSONAL sense of what you want from the world in terms of your ability to shape the world and the people in it to your personal ideal and to own and attain what you want. So I hope this makes my position clear.

(yesterday)Me:
I understand how you've described the public aspect and do agree that this is a strong part of the upper ulna quadrant's energy. The place where Lynn and I have been holding our ground against Martijn is that this is where the Outer World is being taken in and processed, whereas the output to the Outer World is better described from radial aspects, in particular the thumb and upper radial quadrant. Of course the energy goes both ways in all quadrants, just to different degrees, and the upper ulnar quadrant is in the 'active' zone.


(today)Johnny:
Hi Patti, we used to have an expression in the Chiro soc that the 'outer is the inner and the inner is the outer, in that the ulnar half of the palm is both far away, exotic, foreign, the unknown, the outer world, and yet also represents the imagination, the deeper parts of ourselves and the more unexplored regions of consciousness. And the Radial is the inner, known, familiar, measured and explored parts of ourselves, and yet this part of ourselves is the most exteriorised and expressed in concrete form in the outer world. So you and Lynn are correct, I think, in saying the input of the outer world is processed in the ulnar half and we activate and express this in the radial. All best wishes, JF

sunny

Thanks Patti! Thumb up


I have underlined & highlightened some pasages in Johnny's responses above. In both his responses Johnny has clearly confirmed again:

- "ulnar half of the palm is ... outer world ... I do believe it's the more public sphere"
- "...and the radial is the inner"


I also observe that Johnny's last sentence is not much more than an attempt (his words "I think" suggest that he is not sure at all about his reasoning) to explain how things can be understood - and I recognize a clear parallel in his reasoning regardng how I presented a likewise reasoning via von Mangoldt's description for the "I" and "you" side of the hand; because Johnny where he says:

- "...the input of the outer world is processed in the ulnar half..." [thus Johnny explains: ulnar side = outer world, which gets processed]

and:

- "... and we activate and express this in the radial" [thus Johnny explains: radial = inner world, which gets expressed]


So Patti, I can almost support EVERYTHING that Johnny described in his conversation with you (I only completely disagree with Johnny that you and Lynn described the same things... but I perceive that aspect in Johnny's last response as probably the direct result of how you informed Johnny - because Johnny probably has not read much or our discussion in the forum at all).


By the way Patti, I see no evidence that you have informed Johnny about the principle that I used all the way through this discussion:

thumb side (radial) = inner world
ulnar side (ulnar) = outer world


So, I can only hope that you are aware that Johnny actually does use for the palm the same principle that I described for the full hand!

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:25 pm

Patti wrote:
(yesterday)Me:
I understand how you've described the public aspect and do agree that this is a strong part of the upper ulna quadrant's energy. The place where Lynn and I have been holding our ground against Martijn is that this is where the Outer World is being taken in and processed, whereas the output to the Outer World is better described from radial aspects, in particular the thumb and upper radial quadrant. Of course the energy goes both ways in all quadrants, just to different degrees, and the upper ulnar quadrant is in the 'active' zone.

Patti, I also would like to point out the following:

For me it is very weird to see you (suddenly) confirming Johnny's principle: 'upper ulnar palm = public aspect'... because you have actually firmly disputed that principle all the way through this discussion, the evidence is inside the picture that you presented!

You deleted the words 'outer public world' for the upper ulnar quadrant... and now you suddently understand & agree with Johnny's using those words for the upper ulnar quadrant???

confused


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 M10

PS. Actually... it is actually rather funny to see that apparently you immediately understood & agreed with Johnny's words in a private conversation, even though he has used exactly the same words, principles & ideas as presented in his books!


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:44 pm

https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#25418

Patti wrote:In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self. It's basic function is to interact with the environment. This interaction is a two way street. In and out. Outward expression of the inner self can be described in all parts of the hands. Inner awareness of the outer environment is also actively found in all parts of the hands. How we relay this inner and outer expression/response is what we interpret by dividing the hand into a variety of realms.


This is from my very first never edited post.
Patti
Patti

Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:57 pm

Patti wrote:https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#25418

Patti wrote:In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self. It's basic function is to interact with the environment. This interaction is a two way street. In and out. Outward expression of the inner self can be described in all parts of the hands. Inner awareness of the outer environment is also actively found in all parts of the hands. How we relay this inner and outer expression/response is what we interpret by dividing the hand into a variety of realms.


This is from my very first never edited post.

Patti, in your first post you did not specify anything for the ulnar- nor the radial side of the hand at all; you only suggested that all parts of the hand are involved regarding 'outer expression of inner self' and 'inner awareness of the outer world'.

So, your response to Johnny not only contradicts your earlier comments about his works... it actually also contradicts the content of your first post, because in your first post you suggested that all parts of the hand relate to your 'two way street'.

That is why I have pointed out all the way this discussion that your view is not similar to Lynn's view at all, because from the start of this discussion Lynn's view has been much more specified than your 'two way street' view!

scratch

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
Martijn (admin)
Admin

Posts : 5261
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : The Netherlands

http://www.handresearch.com

Back to top Go down

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 38 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 38 of 43 Previous  1 ... 20 ... 37, 38, 39 ... 43  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum