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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:58 pm

Ok, I'll say one thing about the two drawings you have presented.

When you drew these, you drew the spike. Right?

A few posts earlier you said the spike was AT the Left Shoulder. Right?

I used your illustration to show that if the spike was at the left shoulder as you were illustrating, then the core was below.

Many posts back and I cannot find it, I tried, you pointed out an example from the book and said it also illustrated a very narrow bend in a recurve. The more narrow the recurve, the higher the shoulders. The wider the recurve area spans the lower the shoulders.

The core is pointing upward to where the tightest bend is located in this loop like ridge. To the left and right of the area above the core is the space called Between The Shoulders. The shoulders are described as the (quoting book) " *points* at which the recurving ridge definitely turns inward or curves."

This information is at the very beginning of the book, page 14 of chapter 1. These are fundamental rules. Fundamental Rules!


Last edited by Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:01 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:




Because it doesn't makes sense at all to describe a 'shoulder' as a 'point'... because that would violate the concept of the word 'shoulder' in for example the perspective of a human body: shoulders: 'shoulders are the part of the body between the neck and the upper arm'.

So, regarding the 'shoulders' in a fingerprint, I invite you to present me at least one single quote from ANY BOOK which describes that the 'shoulders' should be considered as 'points' - like you suggested in the picture below...


lol! ... Don't be surprized if you can not find any confirming quote at all, because that actually only makes sense.



The x = the point where the shoulders are located.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Fig04610

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Fig04710

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Fig04910


Patti, it doesn't matter if we are agree or disagree about whether the shoulders are 'points' or 'zones' at the ridge line.

The significant issue for our discussion is the consideration of the 'shoulder line'!

And I am not sure if you got confused by my feedback... but I would like to notice here explicitely that I never made any objection regarding how you drew those 'shoulder lines' in any of your pictures!

However, again, because in all your pictures the 'inner ridge line' passes the shoulder line... there is no basis to bring up the issue of the 'shoulder line'!

Simply because we never had any trouble to find the 'core' in Disneys fingerprint!

What I drew was a line that illustrated the level of the core. You had already correctly placed the shoulders at the spike. So it was pretty obvious to most of us, that the core, when a line was drawn across showed without a doubt, that the core was way, way, way below the shoulder line.
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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:13 pm

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Rebutt12

The pink arrow indicates where the points on each shoulder would cross.

The green arrow shows the highest level reached by the core.

The core is below the shoulders.

End of this never ending story....?
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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:43 pm

Lynn wrote:

However, Patti's latest post about "the core of a loop may not be placed below the shoulder line." really made me think it is a tented arch (looking at LIGHT 1937 print)! if I understood it correctly....because if the tip of the central ridge is not the core (ie, placed below the shoulder), then the core is placed at the shoulder furthest away from the delta, and then there is no ridge count to consider it a loop!

I think Lynn was using her own knowledge of the location of cores and the rules. She said she changed her mind when she saw the rule that the core could not be below the shoulders.

I didn't draw the shoulders. She knew where the shoulders were.
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:19 pm

Patti wrote:X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Rebutt12

The pink arrow indicates where the points on each shoulder would cross.

The green arrow shows the highest level reached by the core.

The core is below the shoulders.

End of this never ending story....?
Oh my God.... affraid ... Patti, I am shocked to see the new 'pink arrows' in your picture. My appologies, I had completely misunderstood your 'horizontal green lines'!


However, Very Happy ... your 'pink arrows' helped me to finally also completely understand the nature of mistake regarding 'your quote' from page 41:

Because after seeing your true 'shoulder lines' now I recognize how 'your argument' could actually be applied to far most fingerprints that have a central 'single ridge line'...!!!


Patti, you missed the overruling guideline for the 'core', as described on page 14:

"The core, as the name implies, is the approximate center of the finger impression. It will be necessary to concern ourselves with the core of the loop type only. The following rules govern the selection of the core of a loop:
...."


The words 'core of the loop type' clearly ONLY relates to the central ridge line(s) that could be used for identifying the core... not the overall fingerprint assessment, because that assessment is only possible after the identification of the 'core'. happy move

EDIT: And of course... it is important to notice as well that the 4 guidelines ONLY relate to fingerprints where any variant of 'core of the loop type' is seen (which explains why the 2nd, 3th and 4rd guidelines start with the words: "When the innermost sufficient recurve contains....").


But in the Disney fingerprint we are NOT confronted with any 'core of the loop type' at all... simply because: there is the 'single ridge line'!!!!


Patti, this clearly shows AGAIN... that you completely misinterpretated 'your quote' taken from page 41, because - exactly like I described - the larger context of those words about the 'shoulder line' clearly shows that the 'shoulder line' was only mentioned in the perspective of figures 186 + 187... which both have a 'core of the loop type'.


But Disney's fingerprint does not have a 'core of the loop type' at all! That is why 'your quote' from page 41... is completely irrelevant for our assessment for Disney's fingerprint!!!


cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor

lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!



EDIT: A few posts later I had to admit that I made a mistake regarding the words 'core of the loop type', so my 'cheers' could be perceived as inappropriate.

But I can also add that my major point regarding the insignificance of the 41 quote turned out to be correct... because even when the criteria regarding the 'shoulder line' are applied to Disney's fingerprint it is not clear at all that the 'core' would change position. And even when the 'core's' position would shift to the 'right shoulder' of the 'looping ridge line'... a 'ridge count' is still observed (the ridge count then becomes 1 or 2). At least, Lynn & I agree about this issue.

So, at the end the quote at page 41 indeed turned out to be irrelevant - but my argument regarding the words 'core of the loop type'... turned out to be even more irrelevant!! My apologies for making that suggestion.


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:30 pm

Just noticed you posted some misleading information - good heavens you are confused - or very crafty.

The reasoning behind *checkmate* is because if you lower the shoulders then the spike qualifies as a loop spoiler as it is Between the Shoulders.

The higher the shoulders would be placing the spike at or very close to the left shoulder point.

The higher shoulder points mean the core is far below the shoulders.

The lower the shoulder points places the qualifying spike as between the shoulders and therefore spoils the loop.

The lower the shoulder the more obvious it can be seen in all three image a spike or two can be seen sticking up on the outside of the illusionary loop.

A spike:
FBI: The Science of Fingerprints
Page 41 book

An upthrust, then, must not only be an ending ridge rising at a sufficient degree from the horizontal plane, but there must also be a space between the ending ridge and the ridge immediately beneath it. This, however, is not necessary for a short upthrust or spike, or any upthrust which rises perpendicularly.

In connection with the proper classification to be assigned to those borderline loop-tented arch cases where an appendage or spike is thrusting out from the recurve, it is necessary to remember that an appendage or a spike abutting upon a recurve at right angles in the space between the shoulders of a loop on the outside is considered to spoil the recurve.


Page 41 of the book:

"It must be remembered that the core of a loop may not be placed below the shoulder line. Lacking one of the three characteristics of a loop, these patterns must be classified as tented arches. When figure 188 is examined, it will be noticed that the recurve is spoiled by the appendage abutting upon it between the shoulders at a right angle, so it must also be classified with the tented arches. In figure 189, the only possible delta must be placed upon the looping ridge, thus preventing a ridge count although delta and recurve are present."

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Fig18710
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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:38 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Rebutt12

The pink arrow indicates where the points on each shoulder would cross.

The green arrow shows the highest level reached by the core.

The core is below the shoulders.

End of this never ending story....?
Oh my God.... affraid ... Patti, I am shocked to see the new 'pink arrows' in your picture. My appologies, I had completely misunderstood your 'horizontal green lines'!


However, Very Happy ... your 'pink arrows' helped me to finally also completely understand the nature of mistake regarding 'your quote' from page 41:

Because after seeing your true 'shoulder lines' now I recognize how 'your argument' could actually be applied to far most fingerprints that have a central 'single ridge line'...!!!


Patti, you missed the overruling guideline for the 'core', as described on page 14:

"The core, as the name implies, is the approximate center of the finger impression. It will be necessary to concern ourselves with the core of the loop type only. The following rules govern the selection of the core of a loop:
...."


The words 'core of the loop type' clearly ONLY relates to the central ridge line(s) that could be used for identifying the core... not the overall fingerprint assessment, because that assessment is only possible after the identification of the 'core'. happy move

EDIT: And of course... it is important to notice as well that the 4 guidelines ONLY relate to fingerprints where any variant of 'core of the loop type' is seen (which explains why the 2nd, 3th and 4rd guidelines start with the words: "When the innermost sufficient recurve contains....").


But in the Disney fingerprint we are NOT confronted with any 'core of the loop type' at all... simply because: there is the 'single ridge line'!!!!


Patti, this clearly shows AGAIN... that you completely misinterpretated 'your quote' taken from page 41, because - exactly like I described - the larger context of those words about the 'shoulder line' clearly shows that the 'shoulder line' was only mentioned in the perspective of figures 186 + 187... which both have a 'core of the loop type'.


But Disney's fingerprint does not have a 'core of the loop type' at all! That is why 'your quote' from page 41... is completely irrelevant for our assessment for Disney's fingerprint!!!



cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor

lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!


Are you kidding?

To be a loop it must have a count of one ridge. How do you go about finding the ridge count in a loop? You find the core. A focal point. A point. Yes the approximate central location of the entire fingerprint. Says so in the book.

You line up the two focal points, the delta to the core. If there is no ridge count between the delta and the core, you have no loop. The core is an essential element of a loop.

I guess you are saying in this post you agree it is NOT a loop. Right?

Breathe Martijn, just breathe....


Last edited by Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:49 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
"The core, as the name implies, is the approximate center of the finger impression. It will be necessary to concern ourselves with the core of the loop type only. The following rules govern the selection of the core of a loop:
...."


The words 'core of the loop type' clearly ONLY relates to the central ridge line(s) that could be used for identifying the core... not the overall fingerprint assessment, because that assessment is only possible after the identification of the 'core'. happy move

EDIT: And of course... it is important to notice as well that the 4 guidelines ONLY relate to fingerprints where any variant of 'core of the loop type' is seen (which explains why the 2nd, 3th and 4rd guidelines start with the words: "When the innermost sufficient recurve contains....").


But in the Disney fingerprint we are NOT confronted with any 'core of the loop type' at all... simply because: there is the 'single ridge line'!!!!

Patti, this clearly shows AGAIN... that you completely misinterpretated 'your quote' taken from page 41, because - exactly like I described - the larger context of those words about the 'shoulder line' clearly shows that the 'shoulder line' was only mentioned in the perspective of figures 186 + 187... which both have a 'core of the loop type'.

But Disney's fingerprint does not have a 'core of the loop type' at all! That is why 'your quote' from page 41... is completely irrelevant for our assessment for Disney's fingerprint!!![/color]


cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor rolling on the floor

lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!


Martijn, I don't understand what you're saying here at all.

"It will be necessary to concern ourselves with the core of the loop type only." means that they are only concerned with identifying the core of a loop fingerprint, and not any other type of print.

re "But in the Disney fingerprint we are NOT confronted with any 'core of the loop type' at all... simply because: there is the 'single ridge line'!!!!"

??? But all along you have said it is a loop type print, so therefore we need to study its core to see if it fits the rules.

The single central ridge line could come under the rule
● When the innermost sufficient recurve contains an uneven number of rods rising as high as the shoulders, the core is placed upon the end of the center rod whether it touches the looping ridge or not.

so the core is placed at the top of the central single ridge.

BUT if we look at another of the rules,
● When the innermost sufficient recurve contains no ending ridge or rod rising as high as the shoulders of the loop, the core is placed on the shoulder of the loop farther from the delta.

because that single central ridge does not come up as high as the shoulders, we have to shift the core to the shoulder of the loop furthest from the delta.




Last edited by Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:59 pm

Patti wrote:
Are you kidding?

To be a loop it must have a count of one ridge. How do you go about finding the ridge count in a loop? You find the core. A focal point. A point. Yes the approximate central location of the entire fingerprint. Says so in the book.

You line up the two focal points, the delta to the core. If there is no ridge count between the delta and the core, you have no loop. The core is an essential element of a loop.

I guess you are saying in this post you agree it is NOT a loop. Right?
Breathe Martijn, just breathe....


Patti, your response does not relate to my feedback at all, and your (rethoric) question indicates that you don't really read my writings correctly/seriously... thinking


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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:09 pm

Martijn, I think Patti's reply DID relate to your feedback.
and when you say "But Disney's fingerprint does not have a 'core of the loop type' at all!" it sounds to me also like you are saying that it is not a loop!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:20 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn, I don't understand what you're saying here at all.

"It will be necessary to concern ourselves with the core of the loop type only."

means that they are only concerned with identifying the core of a loop fingerprint, and not any other type of print.

Lynn, thanks for your questions.

Firstly, edit:

(Sorry, I got confused with Lynn's format ... I mistakenly took her words as mine)

I should have written:

No, at page 14 the book does not focuss on 'loop prints' only; they only focuss on the center ridge line(s)!!!


Secondly, no the 'single ridge line' does NOT come under the rule:

"● When the innermost sufficient recurve contains an uneven number of rods rising as high as the shoulders, the core is placed upon the end of the center rod whether it touches the looping ridge or not."

... because a 'single ridge line' is NO 'recurve' at all!! Actually his is very important: because this implicates that none of the 4 guidelines are applicable to the 'single ridge line' seen in the Disney print!!!!


Only the overruling guideline is applicable to the 'single ridge line': it is the "approximate center of the finger impression" (see the very first sentence on page 14).

I hope this now makes sense?


Lynn, please notice: if you understand what I am saying here, then please re-read that post of mine... because then you will see that I actually described the same in that post.


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:26 pm

(there's an app for that lol! )

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Fig03913
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:28 pm

Lynn wrote:Martijn, I think Patti's reply DID relate to your feedback.
and when you say "But Disney's fingerprint does not have a 'core of the loop type' at all!" it sounds to me also like you are saying that it is not a loop!

Lynn, i hope you already realize that you got confused by the vocabular in the book... I only quoted those words!

Yes, I can understand how it may sound to you but the words 'core of the loop type' only relate to the central ridge line in the center of the Disney's print (as described in the book).

Very Happy Please don't blame me for the vocabulary that is presented by the F.B.I....it makes sense for me because it is actually very detailed regarding what it is describing.

But I understand your confusion about those words, though I think I explained it properly in my former post that I just posted.

Makes sense now?

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:35 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn, I don't understand what you're saying here at all.

"It will be necessary to concern ourselves with the core of the loop type only." means that they are only concerned with identifying the core of a loop fingerprint, and not any other type of print.

Lynn, thanks for your questions.

Firstly, I indeed wrote mistakenly "... and not any other type of print", while I should have written: "... and not the type of print".

(So I was only considering the issue relating to individual ridge lines; not the 'pattern type' etc.)

Secondly, no the 'single ridge line' does NOT come under the rule:

"● When the innermost sufficient recurve contains an uneven number of rods rising as high as the shoulders, the core is placed upon the end of the center rod whether it touches the looping ridge or not."

... because a 'single ridge line' is NO 'recurve' at all!! Actually his is very important: because this implicates that none of the 4 guidelines are applicable to the 'single ridge line' seen in the Disney print!!!!


Only the overruling guideline is applicable to the 'single ridge line': it is the "approximate center of the finger impression" (see the very first sentence on page 14).

I hope this now makes sense?


Lynn, please notice: if you understand what I am saying here, then please re-read that post of mine... because then you will see that I actually described the same in that post.

Martijn, you have placed the *core* at the top of the single rod. A core is an important location in classifying a pattern, a loop. It involves as we all know, you know, the ridge count. You just explained the process to Jeanette on another thread recently.

No ridge count, no loop.

In this post it sounds like you are telling us a core is related only to a recurve. The definition of the *recurve* is the area Between the Shoulders.

Now if the core is at the end of the rod, we follow the rules for a core on a rod as Lynn did a good job explaining.

If the core is on the farther shoulder, there is no ridge count between the delta and the core. As you keep pointing out No loop.

Tented Arch.

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:38 pm

Martijn!!!!
Those are the first words in the section headed *LOOPS*!!!!!

The fundamental rules.

Applies to all loops.

Oh...nooo!

<edit> and again look at the rules for *CORE* page 14. We're not even to the part of the book about loops, they are describing the key elements involved in identifying and classifying fingerprints. They emphasize that we only need to concern ourselves with a core when talking about loops. No need with an arch, a tented arch except for confusing loop like patterns, and most whorls. There is no ridge count with an arch and whorls have easy to see cores.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:46 pm


Lynn, I had to edit my first response to you question (I got a bit confused by how you quoted from my post, but have corrected that)

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:52 pm

Patti wrote:Martijn!!!!
Those are the first words in the section headed *LOOPS*!!!!!

The fundamental rules.

Applies to all loops.

Oh...nooo!

<edit> and again look at the rules for *CORE* page 14. We're not even to the part of the book about loops, they are describing the key elements involved in identifying and classifying fingerprints. They emphasize that we only need to concern ourselves with a core when talking about loops. No need with an arch, a tented arch except for confusing loop like patterns, and most whorls. There is no ridge count with an arch and whorls have easy to see cores.


Patti, did you understand that the F.B.I. uses the words 'core of the loop type' just to refer to a (looping) central ridge line?

And this implicates that the words 'core of the loop type' do not relate the fingerprint 'type of pattern'!


I would appreciate if you confirm that you understand this.

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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:55 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:Martijn, I think Patti's reply DID relate to your feedback.
and when you say "But Disney's fingerprint does not have a 'core of the loop type' at all!" it sounds to me also like you are saying that it is not a loop!

Lynn, i hope you already realize that you got confused by the vocabular in the book... I only quoted those words!

Yes, I can understand how it may sound to you but the words 'core of the loop type' only relate to the central ridge line in the center of the Disney's print (as described in the book).

Very Happy Please don't blame me for the vocabulary that is presented by the F.B.I....it makes sense for me because it is actually very detailed regarding what it is describing.

But I understand your confusion about those words, though I think I explained it properly in my former post that I just posted.

Makes sense now?

I am not blaming you Martijn. Are you sure that it is me who is confused about the words? I think you are the one who got confused by the vocabulary ??
No, sorry, it doesn't make sense now!

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:03 pm

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Rebutt13
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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:13 pm

Martijn,
I think you have allowed these samples confuse you. Here they are showing how to locate the core when you find these odd patterns as the central recurving ridge.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 10 Fig16411
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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:42 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Firstly, edit:

(Sorry, I got confused with Lynn's format ... I mistakenly took her words as mine)

I should have written:

No, at page 14 the book does not focuss on 'loop prints' only; they only focuss on the center ridge line(s)!!!

Sorry I confused you with my format of quoting.

No, they are not only focussing on the centre ridge lines.

Patti's just posted page 14 above. Let's go step-by-step, from the book,
The core, as the name implies, is the approximate center of the finger impression. It will be necessary to concern ourselves with the core of the loop type only. The following rules govern the selection of the core of a loop:

The first sentence is self-explanatory.
The second sentence means that they are only looking at the core of 'loop type' fingerprints. (They are not looking at the core of an arch or a tented arch or a whorl.)
The third sentence introduces the rules to find the core of a loop fingerprint.

First rule -
● The core is placed upon or within the innermost sufficient recurve.
This is talking about loops that have a recurve and no central single ridge line. So, you are incorrect when you said
they only focuss on the center ridge line(s)!!!
(edit - and obviously, talking about recurves in this way, they must be talking about loop fingerprints!)


Secondly, no the 'single ridge line' does NOT come under the rule:

"● When the innermost sufficient recurve contains an uneven number of rods rising as high as the shoulders, the core is placed upon the end of the center rod whether it touches the looping ridge or not."

... because a 'single ridge line' is NO 'recurve' at all!! Actually his is very important: because this implicates that none of the 4 guidelines are applicable to the 'single ridge line' seen in the Disney print!!!!

The third rule, that you quoted above, is saying that: within the recurve ... if there are an uneven number of rods that rise as high as the shoulders, the core is placed on the central one.
One single ridge (or rod) is an uneven number, and (as it is the only one) it is the central one. so (on the condition that the ridge rises as high as the shoulders) the core goes at the tip of this single central ridge.

re -
because a 'single ridge line' is NO 'recurve' at all!!
??? of course it isn't a recurve! It is within the recurve.


Last edited by Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:46 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, did you understand that the F.B.I. uses the words 'core of the loop type' just to refer to a (looping) central ridge line?

And this implicates that the words 'core of the loop type' do not relate the fingerprint 'type of pattern'!

Martijn, I think you have misunderstood this!

It will be necessary to concern ourselves with the core of the loop type only.
Repeating what I said above, they are saying "we only need to talk about core of loop type fingerprints." ( we're not talking about arches or whorls....)

It does not mean "we are talking about looping central ridge lines".

Later in the book they talk about looping central ridge lines (as the diagrams Patti posted above) but on page 14 that is NOT what they are talking about!


Last edited by Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:59 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:Martijn, I think Patti's reply DID relate to your feedback.
and when you say "But Disney's fingerprint does not have a 'core of the loop type' at all!" it sounds to me also like you are saying that it is not a loop!

Lynn, i hope you already realize that you got confused by the vocabular in the book... I only quoted those words!

Yes, I can understand how it may sound to you but the words 'core of the loop type' only relate to the central ridge line in the center of the Disney's print (as described in the book).

Very Happy Please don't blame me for the vocabulary that is presented by the F.B.I....it makes sense for me because it is actually very detailed regarding what it is describing.

But I understand your confusion about those words, though I think I explained it properly in my former post that I just posted.

Makes sense now?

I am not blaming you Martijn. Are you sure that it is me who is confused about the words? I think you are the one who got confused by the vocabulary ??
No, sorry, it doesn't make sense now!

Well Lynn,

We SHOULD be talking about central 'ridge lines', but I can understand that you can not confirm my point regarding how I started using the words 'core of the loop'... and I admit that I just noticed that the words 'core of the loop type' does not come back again in the book, so those words are probably not that important.


But much more important...

We need to consider the FACT that on page 14 the second guideline mentions the shoulders, but is focussed on the innermost sufficient recurve when there is no: 1a) 'ending ridge line', or no 1b) rod rising as high as the shoulder of the loop.

But in the Disney print there is an 'ending ridge line'. Therefore the 2nd guideline should not be applied to the Disney print!

Wow... Very Happy ...I never realized that I could explain this simple!!!!!


(The 3rd and 4th guide line do obviously not relate to the Disney print either)


And please let me also explain this by considering the example of figure 34:

If we take a look at figure 34 in the book, we can see that in that example the 'core' is at the single ridge line... and there is no consideration at all regarding the 'shoulders' (while if one would start considering that issue in figure 34 one could even argue that the central ridge line does not reach out completely to the 'shoulders'... but that is probably the case for any single ridge line, etc).

So why on earth would we start considering the 'shoulders' anyway?

Patti talked us into these considerations... only induced by the quote from page 41. But I immediately notice that the quote actually relates to the figures 186 + 187... which both do present us a completely different problem regarding identifying the 'core', because in both of these examples there is no 'single ridge line' at all!

And obviosly the issue of the 'shoulders' becomes relevant for identifying the 'core' which is described on page 14.

But the basic principle is to put the 'core' on the approximate center of the finger impression, and if there is a 'single ridge line' which approaches the 'curving ridge line'... then the termination of the 'single ridge line' becomes the 'core'.

Just like in example 34!!!!!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:11 pm

Lynn wrote:First rule -
● The core is placed upon or within the innermost sufficient recurve.
This is talking about loops that have a recurve and no central single ridge line. So, you are incorrect when you said
they only focuss on the center ridge line(s)!!!
(edit - and obviously, talking about recurves in this way, they must be talking about loop fingerprints!)

Lynn, regarding the details:

When I talked about 'center ridge lines'... I meant actually both any 'single ridge line(s)' + 'recurving ridge lines'.

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:16 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Well Lynn,

We SHOULD be talking about central 'ridge lines', but I can understand that you can not confirm my point regarding how I started using the words 'core of the loop'... and I admit that I just noticed that the words 'core of the loop type' does not come back again in the book, so those words are probably not that important.

But much more important...

We need to consider the FACT that on page 14 the second guideline mentions the shoulders, but is focussed on the innermost sufficient recurve when there is no: 1a) 'ending ridge line', or no 1b) rod rising as high as the shoulder of the loop.

But in the Disney print there is an 'ending ridge line'. Therefore the 2nd guideline should not be applied to the Disney print!

Wow... Very Happy ...I never realized that I could explain this simple!!!!!


(The 3rd and 4th guide line do obviously not relate to the Disney print either)


And please let me also explain this by considering the example of figure 34:

If we take a look at figure 34 in the book, we can see that in that example the 'core' is at the single ridge line... and there is no consideration at all regarding the 'shoulders' (while if one would start considering that issue in figure 34 one could even argue that the central ridge line does not reach out completely to the 'shoulders'... but that is probably the case for any single ridge line, etc).So why on earth would we start considering the 'shoulders' anyway?

Patti talked us into these considerations... only induced by the quote from page 41. But I immediately notice that the quote actually relates to the figures 186 + 187... which both do present us a completely different problem regarding identifying the 'core', because in both of these examples there is no 'single ridge line' at all!

And obviosly the issue of the 'shoulders' becomes relevant for identifying the 'core' which is described on page 14.

But the basic principle is to put the 'core' on the approximate center of the finger impression, and if there is a 'single ridge line' which approaches the 'curving ridge line'... then the termination of the 'single ridge line' becomes the 'core'.

Just like in example 34!!!!![/color]

lol! rolling on the floor
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