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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:19 pm


Dear Lynn & Patti,

We can continue endlessly about the vocabular, and considerations regarding certain text passage, etc, but maybe it would be helpful if you simply both describe where each of you think that we should put the 'core'.

And of course, a simple explanation is welcome as well (quotes from the book could be helpfull, but probably only if you explain why you present them, etc.)



PS. I still think it is at the distal termination of the central ridge line; I have explained why any consideration regarding the 'shoulders' - as suggested by the quote on page 41 - is irrelevant... unfortunately, so far both of you never responded to my observation that 'Patti's quote' actually relates to two completely unrelated examples compared to the Disney fingerprint.


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:25 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Well Lynn,

We SHOULD be talking about central 'ridge lines', but I can understand that you can not confirm my point regarding how I started using the words 'core of the loop'... and I admit that I just noticed that the words 'core of the loop type' does not come back again in the book, so those words are probably not that important.

But much more important...

We need to consider the FACT that on page 14 the second guideline mentions the shoulders, but is focussed on the innermost sufficient recurve when there is no: 1a) 'ending ridge line', or no 1b) rod rising as high as the shoulder of the loop.

But in the Disney print there is an 'ending ridge line'. Therefore the 2nd guideline should not be applied to the Disney print!

Wow... Very Happy ...I never realized that I could explain this simple!!!!!


(The 3rd and 4th guide line do obviously not relate to the Disney print either)


And please let me also explain this by considering the example of figure 34:

If we take a look at figure 34 in the book, we can see that in that example the 'core' is at the single ridge line... and there is no consideration at all regarding the 'shoulders' (while if one would start considering that issue in figure 34 one could even argue that the central ridge line does not reach out completely to the 'shoulders'... but that is probably the case for any single ridge line, etc).So why on earth would we start considering the 'shoulders' anyway?

Patti talked us into these considerations... only induced by the quote from page 41. But I immediately notice that the quote actually relates to the figures 186 + 187... which both do present us a completely different problem regarding identifying the 'core', because in both of these examples there is no 'single ridge line' at all!

And obviosly the issue of the 'shoulders' becomes relevant for identifying the 'core' which is described on page 14.

But the basic principle is to put the 'core' on the approximate center of the finger impression, and if there is a 'single ridge line' which approaches the 'curving ridge line'... then the termination of the 'single ridge line' becomes the 'core'.

Just like in example 34!!!!![/color]

lol! rolling on the floor

Patti, what is your thought on my green words?

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:28 pm

Patti wrote: wave

Actually, I thought I'd said all I could say about this.

Gna...gna

but,

maybe just one more thing.....

Thank you Martijn for calling my attention to page 41 (in the book 48 on the web site)

As I had not once read that the location of the core was a necessary part of determining a pattern as a tented arch, I thought it wise to take a good look and see if you perhaps had come across something I missed.

and glory be, you had,



happy yel



Checkmate ! king and guard your queen !



"The Science of Fingerprints"

"It must be remembered that the core of a loop may not be placed below the shoulder line. Lacking one of the three characteristics of a loop, these patterns must be classified as tented arches."

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 11 Rebutt10

So thank you Martijn for pointing out the importance of the core when classifying those troublesome tented arch/loop patterns.

As here is one more characteristic joining the long list of characteristics that undeniably designate Walt Disney's left index finger a Tented Arch.

happy move

If, Martijn, the core of the loop being placed below the shoulders is some minor insignificant thing, would they bother to tell us with words like "It must be remembered that *the core of a loop* may NOT be placed below the shoulder line? Seems like they were reminding students of the rules they were taught in the kindergarten of Fingerprint class.

Since most rule books include specifics based on the expert teacher's experiences of the mistakes that trip up beginners, they outline these specific rules so as not to be mistaken for insignificant details.

They quickly for an obvious purpose, so these beginners do not get confused, go on to ever so sweetly say "Lacking one of the three characteristics of a loop, these patterns must be classified as Tented Arch.


Last edited by Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:29 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

But much more important...

We need to consider the FACT that on page 14 the second guideline mentions the shoulders, but is focussed on the innermost sufficient recurve when there is no: 1a) 'ending ridge line', or no 1b) rod rising as high as the shoulder of the loop.

But in the Disney print there is an 'ending ridge line'. Therefore the 2nd guideline should not be applied to the Disney print!

Wow... Very Happy ...I never realized that I could explain this simple!!!!!


......
And please let me also explain this by considering the example of figure 34:


Again, I read the FACT differently.
An ending ridge line is the same as a single rod, (isn't it?)
The way I read it, you could take out the word rod and it reads "When the innermost sufficient recurve contains no ending ridge rising as high as the shoulders of the loop"

The ending ridge should rise as high as the shoulders.
That's why we're talking about shoulders.
in fig 34 the ridge line reaches the shoulders, so the core is at the tip of that line.
In Disney's print, the ridge line does not reach as high as the shoulders.

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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:33 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote: Lynn, i hope you already realize that you got confused by the vocabular in the book... I only quoted those words!

Martijn (admin) wrote:
We SHOULD be talking about central 'ridge lines', but I can understand that you can not confirm my point regarding how I started using the words 'core of the loop'... and I admit that I just noticed that the words 'core of the loop type' does not come back again in the book, so those words are probably not that important.

Is that an admission that actually it was you who misunderstood the vocabulary?

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:44 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
But much more important...

We need to consider the FACT that on page 14 the second guideline mentions the shoulders, but is focussed on the innermost sufficient recurve when there is no: 1a) 'ending ridge line', or no 1b) rod rising as high as the shoulder of the loop.

But in the Disney print there is an 'ending ridge line'. Therefore the 2nd guideline should not be applied to the Disney print!

Wow... Very Happy ...I never realized that I could explain this simple!!!!!

a) if you don't see an ending ridge line or what is called a rod - you focus on the farthest shoulder from the delta of the innermost recurving ridge. If the ending ridge does not reach the shoulder line then it does not qualify as the core. It it reaches or passes the shoulder line (all the way to touching the recurving ridge) it is the core. If touching the recurve, the core is placed at the location the rod touches the recurving ridge.

or NOT "and"

b) A rod not rising as high as the shoulder means you have to place the core on the first recurve. We only have one recurve. No ridge count. TENTED ARCH


Last edited by Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:45 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I have explained why any consideration regarding the 'shoulders' - as suggested by the quote on page 41 - is irrelevant... unfortunately, so far both of you never responded to my observation that 'Patti's quote' actually relates to two completely unrelated examples compared to the Disney fingerprint.

The quote on page 41 is just re-iterating the rule found on page 14. So it is relevant.


maybe it would be helpful if you simply both describe where each of you think that we should put the 'core'.
I think we both already said: Because the central ridge does not reach the shoulders, the core should be at the shoulder furthest from the delta. If we place the core there, then there is no ridge count to class the print as a loop and it becomes a tented arch.

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:56 pm

Lynn I think we are on the same wavelength! Just different attitudes. cheers
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:59 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

But much more important...

We need to consider the FACT that on page 14 the second guideline mentions the shoulders, but is focussed on the innermost sufficient recurve when there is no: 1a) 'ending ridge line', or no 1b) rod rising as high as the shoulder of the loop.

But in the Disney print there is an 'ending ridge line'. Therefore the 2nd guideline should not be applied to the Disney print!

Wow... Very Happy ...I never realized that I could explain this simple!!!!!


......
And please let me also explain this by considering the example of figure 34:


Again, I read the FACT differently.
An ending ridge line is the same as a single rod, (isn't it?)
The way I read it, you could take out the word rod and it reads "When the innermost sufficient recurve contains no ending ridge rising as high as the shoulders of the loop"

The ending ridge should rise as high as the shoulders.
That's why we're talking about shoulders.
in fig 34 the ridge line reaches the shoulders, so the core is at the tip of that line.
In Disney's print, the ridge line does not reach as high as the shoulders.

Lynn, I can not accept your suggestion to simply delete a few words from the tekst. I would read 'rod' as a short 'ridge line'.

Regarding example 34, I observe that IF we would start considering the question 'where do the shoulders' exactly start.... that would simply induce much more trouble.

(If I look that the details have the opinion that the 'ridge line' ends very close to the shoulders.... I can't tell anyhow if it reaches the shoulders, or not. That would be just pure 'speculation'. I can hardly imagine that the 'shoulders' really need to be considered in this example)


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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:01 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote: Lynn, i hope you already realize that you got confused by the vocabular in the book... I only quoted those words!

Martijn (admin) wrote:
We SHOULD be talking about central 'ridge lines', but I can understand that you can not confirm my point regarding how I started using the words 'core of the loop'... and I admit that I just noticed that the words 'core of the loop type' does not come back again in the book, so those words are probably not that important.

Is that an admission that actually it was you who misunderstood the vocabulary?

Thumbs up! Yes of course!

I withdraw my words about confusion regarding the words 'core of the loop'.



Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:04 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

But much more important...

We need to consider the FACT that on page 14 the second guideline mentions the shoulders, but is focussed on the innermost sufficient recurve when there is no: 1a) 'ending ridge line', or no 1b) rod rising as high as the shoulder of the loop.

But in the Disney print there is an 'ending ridge line'. Therefore the 2nd guideline should not be applied to the Disney print!

Wow... Very Happy ...I never realized that I could explain this simple!!!!!


......
And please let me also explain this by considering the example of figure 34:


Again, I read the FACT differently.
An ending ridge line is the same as a single rod, (isn't it?)
The way I read it, you could take out the word rod and it reads "When the innermost sufficient recurve contains no ending ridge rising as high as the shoulders of the loop"

The ending ridge should rise as high as the shoulders.
That's why we're talking about shoulders.
in fig 34 the ridge line reaches the shoulders, so the core is at the tip of that line.
In Disney's print, the ridge line does not reach as high as the shoulders.

Lynn, I can not accept your suggestion to simply delete a few words from the tekst. I would read 'rod' as a short 'ridge line'.

Regarding example 34, I observe that IF we would start considering the question 'where do the shoulders' exactly start.... that would simply induce much more trouble.

(If I look that the details have the opinion that the 'ridge line' ends very close to the shoulders.... I can't tell anyhow if it reaches the shoulders, or not. That would be just pure 'speculation'. I can hardly imagine that the 'shoulders' really need to be considered in this example)


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 11 Smoke211

applause
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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:14 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, I can not accept your suggestion to simply delete a few words from the tekst. I would read 'rod' as a short 'ridge line'.

Yes Ok I accept that. What I was trying to say is that I read it as meaning
"When the innermost sufficient recurve contains no ending ridge rising as high as the shoulders of the loop, or no rod rising as high as the shoulders of the loop."

Not just "When the innermost sufficient recurve contains no ending ridge."

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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:16 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Thumbs up! Yes of course!

I withdraw my words about confusion regarding the words 'core of the loop'.


Thank you.

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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:19 pm

Patti wrote:X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 11 Smoke211

Great pic Patti! This was my great-grandfather's job - touring fairgrounds with a Ghost Show or phantascope! I never understood exactly how it worked, but your pic shows how the ghost appeared, thanks! oops sorry I've gone ofto

Patti wrote:Lynn I think we are on the same wavelength! Just different attitudes. cheers
Yes we posted at the same time, saying approx the same thing!


Last edited by Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:21 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
I have explained why any consideration regarding the 'shoulders' - as suggested by the quote on page 41 - is irrelevant... unfortunately, so far both of you never responded to my observation that 'Patti's quote' actually relates to two completely unrelated examples compared to the Disney fingerprint.

The quote on page 41 is just re-iterating the rule found on page 14. So it is relevant.


Lynn, I can only see how the quote is relevant for especially the examples 186 + 187, because obviously example 139 (mentioned as the exception in the guideline) directly relates to example 186 and example 187 includes an ending ridge line that is obviously far away from the 'shoulders'.

But if we would accept the 'shoulders' as an issue to consider for the Disney print... that would raise a new point for debate: where can we actually put the 'shoulder line'?


If we follow the 'ridge lines' involved, which are most clearly visible in the 'LIGHT 1937print '... then I think that my 1000% ZOOMED picture indicates that the 'inner ridge line' actually does reach the shoulders!

The yellow arrows illustrate the point where the 'recurve' begins at both sides, because at those point both ridge lines start going inward with a smooth curve directed towards the highest point where they meet.

MY CONCLUSION:

Even when using this method, the central ridge line appears to reach the 'shoulder line'. And even when it would have been slightly shorter, that would not always result in then there would for sure be not no 'ridge count'.

So even then the Disney print could still be described as a 'radial loop' (though that would depend on the exact position of the virtual 'core').


But again, I doubt whether we should apply this method to the Disney print... see for example figure 306, where the book describes 'two good loop formations' while on the right see we can see that the 'central ridge line' ends at a point at some distance from the point where the actual 'recurve' takes place.

The similarities regarding the turning point in the Disney print are much more similar in the example 34 + 306... than in the examples 186 + 187.


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 11 1937-l11

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 11 1933-s10

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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:45 pm

I would put the yellow line slightly higher, especially on the right side (my right-hand side as I look at it), so instead of being horizontal it would be oblique line. (sorry I can't draw it).

This is why the shoulders are very important, because the classification of this print seems to depend solely on whether the single central ridge reaches the shoulders. And this is where the rules are still open to some degree of interpretation ie regarding exactly where the shoulder line is.

We can sure see why the person who identifed Walt's prints put both t and \ (tented arch and loop). It's a close call!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:47 pm

Lynn wrote:
maybe it would be helpful if you simply both describe where each of you think that we should put the 'core'.
I think we both already said: Because the central ridge does not reach the shoulders, the core should be at the shoulder furthest from the delta. If we place the core there, then there is no ridge count to class the print as a loop and it becomes a tented arch.

Sorry Lynn, you now sound like you 'firmly' claim that the Disney print is a 'tented arch'... but I see no evidence for that at all:

Why do you think that the 'shoulder core' would result in 'no ridge count' at all?


For example, my former post indicates that the 'shoulder core' could actually result in a 'ridge count' of 2: the 'inner ridge line' + the other part of the 'looping ridge line'!

And even when the inner curve does not reach the shoulders, it really depends on the position of the exact position of the 'shoulder-core'... AND the triradius, whether the inner curve is not found between both elements!!

scratch So, I am wondering... what do you actually had in mind when you made your claim that the 'loop' could suddenly become a 'tented arch'?




Not that it really matters... but I reject Patti's attempt to draw a 'pink shoulder line' in the the three pictures... because I could describe that as a pretty 'wild' attempt to make the picture look like she wants it to be (funny to see that in the first picture the 'shoulder line' almost crosses the red dot which reflects the most distal central point in the 'looping ridge line').

But studying the details, I think I can even sometimes observe a 'ridge count = 2' resulting from that attempt.


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 11 Rebutt12

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:48 pm

Martijn,
You are being misleading in where you are now placing the right shoulder.

At the point you have placed it, it has obviously been flowing in a downward direction and not following the flow of the *recurve*. The point where the recurve ends is where the shoulder is placed. The book calls it "shoulder line X". It's a line and it's a point on each side at the shoulder.

See example 33 for how high up a shoulder line is placed when the core is placed on the farthest shoulder.

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:56 pm

Lynn wrote:I would put the yellow line slightly higher, especially on the right side (my right-hand side as I look at it), so instead of being horizontal it would be oblique line. (sorry I can't draw it).

This is why the shoulders are very important, because the classification of this print seems to depend solely on whether the single central ridge reaches the shoulders. And this is where the rules are still open to some degree of interpretation ie regarding exactly where the shoulder line is.

We can sure see why the person who identifed Walt's prints put both t and \ (tented arch and loop). It's a close call!

Lynn!!!
They did not put loop!!!!!

I have quoted twice from the FBI's "The Science of Fingerprints" that that is just a formality. And not related to a loop!!!

"When interpreting a pattern consisting of two ending ridges and a delta but lacking a recurve, do not confuse the ridge count of the tented arch with that of the ridge count for the loop. The ridge count of the tented arch is merely a convention of fingerprinting, a fiction designed to facilitate a scientific classification of tented arches, and has no connection with a loop;"

Page 41 on the web and top of page 37 in the book.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:05 pm

Lynn wrote:I would put the yellow line slightly higher, especially on the right side (my right-hand side as I look at it), so instead of being horizontal it would be oblique line. (sorry I can't draw it).

This is why the shoulders are very important, because the classification of this print seems to depend solely on whether the single central ridge reaches the shoulders. And this is where the rules are still open to some degree of interpretation ie regarding exactly where the shoulder line is.

We can sure see why the person who identifed Walt's prints put both t and \ (tented arch and loop). It's a close call!

My last post shows why the Disney prints is not a 'close call':

Lynn, according the right yellow pointer... it would not be 'fair' to put it higher on the right sight because for example the red line indicates that at that point the path of the ridge line already has changed significantly!!

I hope we can agree that the angle difference beteen the red line and the right yellow pointer indicate that my 'shouler line' could be described as accurate.


PS. Interesting to hear you talking about that the classification 'solely' depends on this aspect. Because that implicates that you actually can support quite some of my points that I positioned earlier in this discussion... Very Happy

(I remember e.g. the following topics: the 'white patch', the 'small ink dot', the 'angle' in the upper zone of the looping ridge line, and the issue of the abundance of link)


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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:14 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:I would put the yellow line slightly higher, especially on the right side (my right-hand side as I look at it), so instead of being horizontal it would be oblique line. (sorry I can't draw it).

This is why the shoulders are very important, because the classification of this print seems to depend solely on whether the single central ridge reaches the shoulders. And this is where the rules are still open to some degree of interpretation ie regarding exactly where the shoulder line is.

We can sure see why the person who identifed Walt's prints put both t and \ (tented arch and loop). It's a close call!

My last post shows why the Disney prints is not a 'close call':

Lynn, according the right yellow pointer... it would not be 'fair' to put it higher on the right sight because for example the red line indicates that at that point the path of the ridge line already has changed significantly!!

I hope we can agree that the angle difference beteen the red line and the right yellow pointer indicate that my 'shouler line' could be described as accurate.


PS. Interesting to hear you talking about that the classification 'solely' depends on this aspect. Because that implicates that you actually can support quite some of my points that I positioned earlier in this discussion... Very Happy

(I remember e.g. the following topics: the 'white patch', the 'small ink dot', the 'angle' in the upper zone of the looping ridge line, and the issue of the abundance of link)


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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 11 2-21-210

I think the appropriate places to put the shoulders are where the spike and what I call a short upthrust are located. Each appears that if the side ridges continued on their paths, they would flow in the direction the arrows in this illustration I shared the other day.

These are obvious points of a downward direction and not at all on the recurve - which is the location between the shoulders that take us from one side to the other.

When you know you're on the other side of the recurve of the recurving ridge, then you know you've reached and are passing the point called the shoulder.
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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:24 pm

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:27 pm

Patti wrote:
Lynn wrote:I would put the yellow line slightly higher, especially on the right side (my right-hand side as I look at it), so instead of being horizontal it would be oblique line. (sorry I can't draw it).

This is why the shoulders are very important, because the classification of this print seems to depend solely on whether the single central ridge reaches the shoulders. And this is where the rules are still open to some degree of interpretation ie regarding exactly where the shoulder line is.

We can sure see why the person who identifed Walt's prints put both t and \ (tented arch and loop). It's a close call!



Lynn!!!
They did not put loop!!!!!

I have quoted twice from the FBI's "The Science of Fingerprints" that that is just a formality. And not related to a loop!!!

"When interpreting a pattern consisting of two ending ridges and a delta but lacking a recurve, do not confuse the ridge count of the tented arch with that of the ridge count for the loop. The ridge count of the tented arch is merely a convention of fingerprinting, a fiction designed to facilitate a scientific classification of tented arches, and has no connection with a loop;"

Page 41 on the web and top of page 37 in the book.


Lynn, did you check this out for yourself?
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Post  Lynn on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:29 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Sorry Lynn, you now sound like you 'firmly' claim that the Disney print is a 'tented arch'... but I see no evidence for that at all:

Instead of "Because the central ridge does not reach the shoulders", I should have said what I previously said - "IF the central ridge..." (because I now see the difficulty in exactly locating the shoulder line, I can't be sure.)

Martijn (admin) wrote: Why do you think that the 'shoulder core' would result in 'no ridge count' at all?
Oh...nooo! uh-oh, I made a mistake here!! - yes I can see a ridge count of 1. Embarassed rolling on the floor

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Post  Patti on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:38 pm

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The shoulders represent a change in direction. The first change in direction. Not some place that suddenly makes the core in the convenient location.

Besides. Martijn will have to prove that both the upthrust and spike do not exist or are not relevant if we lower the shoulders. Because they are loop spoilers as we only have the one recurve and that is where they are roosting.

To prove that, once again he will have to tell us to see ink where it isn't and too much ink elsewhere. Of course, again these suggestions/illusions are only to support his agenda.

Oddly it's a very, very short distance in this real size of a human finger print that Martijn wants to see the fingerprint as over and under inked. If there were really an overly amount of ink to the point the print was not legible the white space would have become filled in.

The fingerprinting specialist who rated this a tented arch was looking at the original ink print of Walt Disney's fingerprints. I think they followed all the rules very well. They would have known where the location of the shoulders were when they made their classification.
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