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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:01 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I repeat:

Patti, didn't you notice my request?

I simply asked you to specify your comments to what I described about 'bifurcation 4'.
What are YOUR thoughts & observations regarding the characteristics of 'bifurcation 4'?

(And would mind to specify your thoughts about 'bifurcation 4' to what we can see in the picture below... please?)


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1937-l21

4, in this illustration can be said to 'open to the core'.

So can 1 and 2 be said to 'open to the core'.

3 and 5 are too far away from being out in front of the diverging parallel type lines.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1937-l10
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:30 am

[quote="Patti"][quote="Martijn (admin)"]
Patti wrote:
No Martijn,
That is not how I concluded that 4 was the delta. See my last post. It is the best illustration. I mentioned to you earlier that the delta could not be on a type line.

The delta must be "within" the pattern.

Here's an example showing a bifurcation "open to the core". Notice the 'flying bird' like characteristic?

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig01110

Figure 11 is a typical loop. Lines A and B, which have been emphasized in this sketch, are the type lines, starting parallel, diverging at the line C and surrounding the pattern area, which is emphasized in figure 12 by eliminating all the ridges within the pattern area.


If you look at other samples. You will see that is the case, in every case.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig02510


When there is a choice between two or more possible deltas, the following rules govern:

The delta may not be located at a bifurcation which does not open toward the core.

In figure 26, the bifurcation at E is closer to the core than the bifurcation at D. However, E is not immediately in front of the divergence of the type lines and it does not open toward the core. A—A and B—B are the only possible type lines in this sketch and it follows, therefore, that the bifurcation at D must be called the delta. The first ridge count would be ridge C.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig02612

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig02810

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 L_895710

Look at all the Deltas in the figures above. See the V shape? The two limbs spreading out leaving the center of the 'triradius (which becomes the focal point called Delta) open to the focal point called the Core.

If it's obvious the two branches from a fork are close together and not open to the core, it wouldn't be wise to use the other wider open sides as claiming to be 'open to the core'. But that point on the bifurcation could still be the delta, if it happens to fit the rules. Such as, at or out in front of diverging parallel type lines.

The delta is a focal point and not a triradius. It can be a focal point on a triradius.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:46 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti... didn't you notice my request?

I simply asked you to specify your comments to what I described about 'bifurcation 4'.
And what are YOUR thoughts about 'bifurcation 4'?

It really doesn't matter if bifurcation 4 opens to the core. Because that branch between it and bifurcation 1 spoils the loop. Read the rule I just posted.

But, to answer your question. And I have been answering your question. It's just the answer doesn't make sense since you do not know what they mean by "open to the core".

...

Patti, first of all: we are faced with multiple 'bifurcations' that could represent the DELTA, and therefore we must apply all DELTA-rules, including DETLA-rule no.1...!

Your reference to example 26 doesn't make sense for me at all, because that example exactly CONFIRMS my point. For example, the books describes on page 12 for the upper-DELTA in example 26:

"... E is not immediately in front of the divergence of the type lines and it does not open toward the core."

So, the book describes two arguments why E is not the DELTA. And I understand both arguments.


Secondly, you assume: "... you do not know what they mean by "open to the core"."

But why are you making this assumption?
I have presented detailed observations regarding 'bifurcation 4', and these should tell you that I exactly know what "open to the core" means!


Thirdly, you stated:

"It really doesn't matter if bifurcation 4 opens to the core."

But this implicates that you choose to ignore DELTA-rule no.1...!!!
And by the way, your argument regarding a 'spoiled' looping ridge line... does not relate to the identification of the DELTA at all!!


Patti, why do you not simply follow the DELTA-rules?

Because... if you continue to use 'bifurcation 4' as the DELTA in your 'tented arch', then you are ignoring DELTA-rule no.1. And as consequence, then you would leave me no other option than to conclude: that your assessment does not follow the F.B.I rules.

EDIT: Patti, in our assessment we should simply not ignore any of the DELTA-rules.
Do we agree about that?


PS. You still haven't shared your thoughts/observations about the characteristics of 'bifurcation 4'... you only talked about other aspects of the print!

___________________________________________
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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:00 am

1) Do you know that Delta and Triradius are not interchangable terms here?

2) A delta can be a point on the triradius. It could even be at the end of a ridge. It can be a point on a recurving ridge if it is out in front of the diverging parallel ridges.

3) A Delta is a *focal point*. A location. Just like the core.

4) A triradius is where 3 radiants branch out in 3 different directions.

5) A triradius can look like a bifurcation

6) A delta can be a point on a bifurcation

Please let me know where here you disagree?
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:13 am

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig13610



In connection with the types of tented arches, the reader is referred to the third type. This form of tented arch, the one which approaches the loop, may have any combination of two of the three basic loop characteristics, lacking the third. These three loop characteristics are, to repeat:

A sufficient recurve.
A delta.
A ridge count across a looping ridge.

It must be remembered that a recurve must be free of any appendage abutting upon it at a right angle between the shoulders, and a true ridge count is obtained only by crossing a looping ridge freely, with a white space intervening between the delta and the ridge to be counted.
Figures 136 and 137 are tented arches having loop formations within the pattern area but with deltas upon the loops, by reason of which it is impossible to secure a ridge count. The type lines run parallel from the left in figures 136 and 137. These tented arches have two of the loop characteristics, recurve and delta, but lack the third, the ridge count.[Pg 39]

Martijn,

Please look at Fig. 136. And read the rules I've copied here. See how the two parallel lines open, or diverge? There are bifurcations on the lower type line. They have placed the Delta on the looping ridge. (this example even has a rod up the middle)


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig13610

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 A_disn13



Last edited by Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:32 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Thirdly, you stated:

"It really doesn't matter if bifurcation 4 opens to the core."

But this implicates that you choose to ignore DELTA-rule no.1...!!!
And by the way, your argument regarding a 'spoiled' looping ridge line... does not relate to the identification of the DELTA at all!!



I said this, because while looking through the entire book (which is what you should be doing) to illustrate my answer to your questions; I came across another rule.

Which means, even if I were to say OK to you leaving the Delta as the yellow dot you have made it - in the location you have put it. There is a Rule that spoils it.

So while you are arguing over if 1 to 5 are bifurcations, it really doesn't matter.

The rule says there cannot be a line in the "line of fire" (my paraphasing) between the delta and the core.

You have drawn in your top illustration, a dashed yellow line. This yellow line is traced over a darker ridge underneath and all the way up to the Core which you have marked at the top of the rod.

The rule says:
A white space must intervene between the delta and the first ridge count. If no such interval exists, the first ridge must be disregarded. In figures 53 and 54, the first ridge beyond the delta is counted. In figure 55, it is not counted because there is no interval between it and the delta. Notice that the ridge running from the delta toward the core is in a straight line between them. If it were not, of course, an interval would intervene as in figures 53 and 54
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig05311

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1933-112

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig05312

Please read what I am writing. Instead of what you think I am not writing.

Please answer my post with the list of questions so we both know we're on the same page as to what a delta is as a focal point.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:01 pm

Patti wrote:...

Which means, even if I were to say OK to you leaving the Delta as the yellow dot you have made it - in the location you have put it. There is a Rule that spoils it.

So while you are arguing over if 1 to 5 are bifurcations, it really doesn't matter.

Patti... yesterday I came back into this discussion with a simple question about 'bifurcation 4'. Since then you responded with a dozen of points... but you still did not explicitely answer my question!!!?

Unless....

What do your highlighted words that I quote above exactly mean regarding 'bifurcation 4': do these words mean that you can agree with my conclusion that 'bifurcation 4' can not be the DELTA?


Second, regarding your assumption:

"So while you are arguing over if 1 to 5 are bifurcations, it really doesn't matter."

Of course it matters! Simply because in the Disney print it is not easy to find the DELTA!!


Remember... the F.B.I. book clearly describes that finding the DELTA is a requirement to start considering the issue of the 'ridge count' - and in this the outcome will be decisive for whether it is a 'loop'... or a 'tented arch'. And yes, the we also need to take in account the rule related to figure 55... but it would not make sense to enter that part of the discussion if we do not agree about the position of the delta!!!


PS. Patti, IF we can find an permanent agree about my conclusion regarding 'bifurcation 4' then I will respond to the other points that you made. And in advance, I can inform you... that we have no disagreement regarding your list of six points.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:15 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...

Which means, even if I were to say OK to you leaving the Delta as the yellow dot you have made it - in the location you have put it. There is a Rule that spoils it.

So while you are arguing over if 1 to 5 are bifurcations, it really doesn't matter.

Patti... yesterday I came back into this discussion with a simple question about 'bifurcation 4'. Since then you responded with a dozen of points... but you still did not explicitely answer my question!!!?

Unless....

What do your highlighted words that I quote above exactly mean regarding 'bifurcation 4': do these words mean that you can agree with my conclusion that 'bifurcation 4' can not be the DELTA?


Second, regarding your assumption:

"So while you are arguing over if 1 to 5 are bifurcations, it really doesn't matter."

Of course it matters! Simply because in the Disney print it is not easy to find the DELTA!!


Remember... the F.B.I. book clearly describes that finding the DELTA is a requirement to start considering the issue of the 'ridge count' - and in this the outcome will be decisive for whether it is a 'loop'... or a 'tented arch'. And yes, the we also need to take in account the rule related to figure 55... but it would not make sense to enter that part of the discussion if we do not agree about the position of the delta!!!


PS. Patti, IF we can find an permanent agree about my conclusion regarding 'bifurcation 4' then I will respond to the other points that you made. And in advance, I can inform you... that we have no disagreement regarding your list of six points.

Martijn,
I have in my posts answered your questions about the 5 bifurcations.

But I will try again.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1937-l11

5 and 3 do not qualify for the delta. They are not out in front of the diverging parallel lines. Too far away. I do not see a bifurcation in all three prints at 5. 3 and 1 may be overlapping ridges and not a bifurcation.

2 is not within the pattern area and still in the area where the two parallel type lines are still running parallel and have not diverged.

4 and 1 are both in places that are within the rules for a delta.

4 is out in front of the two diverging parallel ridges at equal distance.

1 appears to be on the lower type line and therefore shouldn't be considered for the delta.

The rule that allows 4 to be the delta is in the initial list of qualifications for a delta:

"The Science of Fingerprints"

The delta is that point on a ridge at or in front of and nearest the center of the divergence of the type lines.
It may be:

● A bifurcation

● An abrupt ending ridge

● A dot

● A short ridge

● A meeting of two ridges

A point on the first recurving ridge located nearest to the center and in front of the divergence of the type lines.

This last rule allows for 4 to be on the recurving ridge. It doesn't matter if there's a bifurcation at that location or not.

A bifurcation is not an essential part of being a delta. A delta is a location, a dot.





Part 2:

Yes, I am saying that we can take a look at the location you have placed the delta and the core. Core being the yellow dot at the top of the rod and delta being where you've marked the other yellow dot at location 1. Would you like to do that?

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1933-113

Have I answered your questions about the bifurcations?

Regarding 4 and 1 - it really is difficult to say which direction they are bifurcating because in the 1933 print, the way I draw the ridges I see leaves us with no doubt it's a tented arch. The 1933 Print doesn't have a bifurcation at 5.

It is the 1937 prints that allows us to easily draw the loop.

When you study the various print samples in the book, another 'pattern' becomes apparent.

The ridges that form proximally have a tendency to bifurcate or fork along the type line at the bottom. The ridges that flow across the top of the pattern (in loops and tented arches) do not tend to bifurcate, but instead line up in rows and bend upwards and over.

This I believe is one of the things they considered when they formed their rules for a delta, by being aware of this natural order of the prints.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:50 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn,
I have in my posts answered your questions about the 5 bifurcations.

But I will try again.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1937-l11

5 and 3 do not qualify for the delta. They are not out in front of the diverging parallel lines. Too far away. I do not see a bifurcation in all three prints at 5. 3 and 1 may be overlapping ridges and not a bifurcation.

2 is not within the pattern area and still in the area where the two parallel type lines are still running parallel and have not diverged.

4 and 1 are both in places that are within the rules for a delta.

4 is out in front of the two diverging parallel ridges at equal distance.

1 appears to be on the lower type line and therefore shouldn't be considered for the delta.

The rule that allows 4 to be the delta is in the initial list of qualifications for a delta:

"The Science of Fingerprints"

The delta is that point on a ridge at or in front of and nearest the center of the divergence of the type lines.

....

Okay Patti, thanks for sharing your considerations regarding 'bifurcation 4' (plus the other 'bifurcations').

But I see that you did not apply at least some of the DELTA-rules designed for specified situations when there are more 'bifurcations' that could serve as the DELTA - which is clearly applicable for the Disney print.


I will first explain this with some feedback on your words about 'bifurcation 4':

"4 and 1 are both in places that are within the rules for a delta.

4 is out in front of the two diverging parallel ridges at equal distance."


I noticed that you also mention 'bifurcation 4' one more time... but it is only followed with a quote from the book, but you did not use that quote properly, because your point quoted from page 9 in the book only describes the various shapes of how a DELTA can manifest in general; which implicates that your quote from page 9 is actually out of context because only on page 12 are the rules described that need to be applied for "when there is a choice between two or more possible deltas, the following rules govern:..."

Patti, again, you can not ignore DELTA-rule no.1.


Secondly, regarding your considerations about 'bifurcation 1':

You are ignoring DELTA-rule no.3 - because in the Disney we see a clear similarity with figure 28 (which relates to DELTA-rule no.3 at page 12): where point X can be associated with 'bifurcation 2', and point D can be associated with 'bifurcation 1'.

And regarding your observation:

"1 appears to be on the lower type line and therefore shouldn't be considered for the delta."

... is incorrect, because it is actually 'bifurcation 2' that is on the lower type line, just like in figure 28.


This implicates that after applying all DELTA-rules, only 'bifurcation 1' does not violate ANY of the four specified DELTA-rules!!!!


PS. Regarding 'part 2'... Patti, so far I must conclude that in your considerations you did not apply DELTA-rule no.1, nor DELTA-rule no.3. And again: it would not make sense to enter that part of the discussion if we do not agree about the position of the delta!!!

___________________________________________
sunny

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:28 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Okay Patti, thanks for sharing your considerations regarding 'bifurcation 4' (plus the other 'bifurcations').

But I see that you did not apply at least some of the DELTA-rules designed for specified situations when there are more 'bifurcations' that could serve as the DELTA - which is clearly applicable for the Disney print.


I will first explain this with some feedback on your words about 'bifurcation 4':

"4 and 1 are both in places that are within the rules for a delta.

4 is out in front of the two diverging parallel ridges at equal distance."


I noticed that you also mention 'bifurcation 4' one more time... but it is only followed with a quote from the book, but you did not use that quote properly, because your point quoted from page 9 in the book only describes the various shapes of how a DELTA can manifest in general; which implicates that your quote from page 9 is actually out of context because only on page 12 are the rules described that need to be applied for "when there is a choice between two or more possible deltas, the following rules govern:..."

Patti, again, you can not ignore DELTA-rule no.1.


Secondly, regarding your considerations about 'bifurcation 1':

You are ignoring DELTA-rule no.3 - because in the Disney we see a clear similarity with figure 28 (which relates to DELTA-rule no.3 at page 12): where point X can be associated with 'bifurcation 2', and point D can be associated with 'bifurcation 1'.

And regarding your observation:

"1 appears to be on the lower type line and therefore shouldn't be considered for the delta."

... is incorrect, because it is actually 'bifurcation 2' that is on the lower type line, just like in figure 28.


This implicates that after applying all DELTA-rules, only 'bifurcation 1' does not violate ANY of the four specified DELTA-rules!!!!


PS. Regarding 'part 2'... Patti, so far I must conclude that in your considerations you did not apply DELTA-rule no.1, nor DELTA-rule no.3. And again: it would not make sense to enter that part of the discussion if we do not agree about the position of the delta!!!

It may appear that I am disregarding your ITEM 4. I thought you are calling it a bifurcation. Right?

It looks to me like the ridge rising at ITEM 1 is abutting at the location of ITEM 4. So it appears as a triradius or a bifurcation. The narrowest opening is in the direction of your red arrows.

I agree that if you match this print to fig. 28
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig02811

Yes, I can see how you are illustrating X as Item 2 and D as Item 1.

2 in order to be matched to X, must also be centrally placed, at or beyond the place where the type lines diverge.

In Figure 28, A is not a Type Line, B to B is.
To make 2 or 1 relate to the delta in the Disney print and match fig. 28, you would have to move the type line lower to match B to B.


<edit> Nevermind, I do see in fig. 28, that A to A is the type line, but not A to the far D. So the 1st branch of the splitting or bifurcating ridge X in fig. 28 is open to the core (shaped like a V with the open part of the V open to the core).

2 is not open to the core. Both upward branches of the possible fork, aim underneath the central pattern and do not open to the core. They open on a downward bend that ends opening to the SE corner of the illustration.

1 is questionable as to whether it opens to the core as the core cannot easily be placed between the two upward radiants. The opening at 1 appears to open toward the central part of the upthrusting center rod and not up at the core.
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1937-l12

Are we both in agreement that locations 2, 3, and 5 are absolutely not the location of the delta?

When you say I didn't apply delta rules, could you quote the rule so I know which one you are talking about?
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:00 pm

Martijn, can you tell in fig. 28 how each of the possible bifurcations "opens to the core" in a V shape? One limb heading going in the direction of one type line and the other line going in the direction of the other type line.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig02812
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Post  Lynn on Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:39 pm

I agree that locations 2, 3, and 5 are absolutely not the location of the delta.

I am confused as to why Patti thinks 4 opens to the core. I see it the same as Martijn does, 'opening' downwards.
But will continue reading in case I missed something.

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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:46 pm

Lynn wrote:I agree that locations 2, 3, and 5 are absolutely not the location of the delta.

I am confused as to why Patti thinks 4 opens to the core. I see it the same as Martijn does, 'opening' downwards.
But will continue reading in case I missed something.

Actually Lynn, I really don't see Item 4 as a bifurcation. Martijn labeled these 5 locations and called them bifurcations and has demanded I respond to specific questions about them. It's okay if you want to describe Item 4 as having radiants that are closer together as facing/opening downward. I already said that today.

I see a line (ridge) rising from Item 1 up to the point on the recurving loop and abutting it.

Remember I don't see a loop. I am working with Martijn's illustrations. No one seems to want to work with my illustrations of a tented arch, so I'm now willing to work with the Light 1937 example.

I am glad that we are down to Locations I and 4.

4 would be characterized as regarding this rule:

● A point on the first recurving ridge located nearest to the center and in front of the divergence of the type lines.

and not necessarily a bifurcation. (I said that already too)
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:14 pm

I just thought of a good analogy.

Lynn, you and Martijn both seem to be visualizing a Triradius, like found in the palm when looking at bifurcations and deltas.

Thinking that way and imagining the triradius under the index finger. You can see there are the 3 radiants. One radiant is the "a line" and is followed down into the palm. The other two end on each side of the index finger.

The space between these three radiants is open. The space between the two rising radiants is "open to the index finger". The space between the rising ridge to the outside of the index finger and the "a line" is "open to the thumb". The space between the "a line" and the other side of the index finger is "open to the heart line territory".

So each space between the branches is open to something.

When we look for "open to the core" we are always looking at the same situation as the looking at the radiants rising on each side of the index finger, if the index finger were the core.

If you did try to see a "triradius" or bifurcation at 4, then there are 3 sides that are open to something. There are two limbs that open like it's about to give the core a hug. The delta itself (center of the bifurcation in this case at 4) is exposed.

If instead the limbs are close together you are simply adding another ridge to the ridge count, because you are crossing two radiants, unless exactly at or above the point of bifurcation.


Last edited by Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)
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Post  Lynn on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:22 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:I can see at a glance that you are making big, big errors (in your favor, of course).

Two parallel lines that diverge.

They should not have ridge line between them.

Even if they are parallel a short distance and diverge they are counted. That is clearer in the 1933 print.


Have you noticed Martijn, how many times that an inconvenient rule pops up, you immediately tell us it is unimportant or insignificant. That is what I call 'smoke and mirrors'. You tell us to see what you want us to see and tell us not to notice what you don't want us to notice.

I think you correctly placed the lines in blue with red dots earlier when you didn't realize that they were important. You just followed what you saw.

The only place the delta can go after the two line I traced part ways is the next ridge in. You had called the areas outside your bananas ink blots. Are you now seeing them as ridge lines?

Patti, I assume that your first 4 comments relate to the 'type lines'?

The 'type lines' definition on page 7 says:

"Type lines may be defined as the two innermost ridges which start parallel, diverge, and surround or tent to surround the pattern area."


Patti, first of all: you describe that the 'type lines' are required... quoted from your words: "...should not have ridge line between them."

But where did you find such a requirement? Figure 27 & figure 30 clearly show that the types (T and T) can have a ridge between them. So, the requirement that you described... does not exist at all!

Banana waving

Second, if you would have looked at my 'blue lines' closely... then you should have noticed that my blue lines do diverge!

Banana waving


thinking Third, yes ... after looking closely at figure 28 in the F.B.I. book, I can see that I did made a mistake as well:

Despite that I had to point out that you created yourself a 'new rule' (which doesn't exist at all!), and you made an incorrect observation regarding my 'blue lines' (they do diverge!),... yes, I must admit that I did make a mistake here... because I should have drawn the lower type line at another ridge line, see the picture below!

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1937-l20

Rock on! ... During this discussion my drawings have shown a high level of consistancy, and with the help of your feedback & Lynn's feedback my pictures kept improving:

I have now also hightlightened the 'top' of the recurve with the same 'red dot' that I used earlier in my pictures, and I have also slightly lifted the right sight of the 'shoulder' - following the suggestion made by Lynn.

Resulting in that we can now clearly see that 'my shoulders' are not only following the rule that they are found at the point where the "recurving ridge definitely turns inwards or curves", we can also see that both sides also show is a high level of SYMMETRY in the perspective of the 'top'!


Finally, regarding your last point related to the delta... I am not sure what you are trying to say there. But I now would like to describe explictely why the DELTA is found at the location which I described in my former post (see the picture above):

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1937-l21

First of all, the picture below clearly shows why we are faced with the problem of identifying the position of the DELTA... because there is no clear 'triradius' seen in this print... however, there are 5 'bifurcations' that could be associated with the delta - but after the following two considerations if becomes very obvious why only 'bifurcation 1' can be described as the delta!

But only 'bifurcation 1' and 'bifurcation 2' meet the first criterium for the DELTA desribed at page 12 of the book (I quote again):

"# The delta may not be located at a bifurcation which does not open toward the core."

'Bifurcation 3, 4 and 5' do not meet this criterium - so we only need to consider the other two!

And because 'bifurcation 1' and 'bifurcation 2' can be recognized as a SERIES OF BIFURCATIONS, we can apply the third rule described at page 12 of the book:

"# When there is a series of bifurcations opening toward the core at the point of divergence of the two type lines, the bifurcation nearest the core is chosen as the delta."

Therefore I am 100% sure that 'bifurcation 1' can only be described as the DELTA!


Patti, I hope you now recognize that my mistake regarding the lower 'type line' has no implications for my assessment that in the Disney print we can CLEARLY identify the 3 essential requirements for a loop (quoted from page 18 in the F.B.I. book):

- A sufficient recurve
- A delta
- A ridge count across a looping ridge.

The picture below shows all essential elements, which clearly indicate that the Disney print is ... a RADIAL LOOP:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1937-l22

The original print might be helpful as a point of reference:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1937-l23


PS. Patti, I also would like to add the following thought:

In my first attempt I hardly explained my 'type lines'... so your accusation regarding that I am fouling-around-with-the-rules (my words) is unfounded... let's be reasonable: if I make a mistake you should not translate that into that I am trying to change the rules. Especially, when the mistake has no consequences regarding my assessment at all! Very Happy

And I do not recognize at all how my mistake was 'in my favour'... like you suggested!

And it is quite funny that while you make these unfounded accusations (for sure, I did not describe any incorrect rule regarding the 'type lines' because I in that post I only quoted from the book regarding the requirements)... you actually described YOURSELF an incorrect rule.


Patti we all make mistakes... but you should never ever make the assumption that I am making them 'with a purpose'. I can only hope that you will at least give it a thought about why you made these suggestions - because again... I mentioned this already quite a few times...

I never tried to 'trick' you anyhow!


Thanks!

This is the post that Martijn specifically asked me to reply to.

I can't find a rule that says that type lines should not have ridge line between them.

I did not agree with Martijn's original type lines, but I do agree with the corrected version here
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1937-l20

I like the new position of the shoulders.
Previously I thought if the shoulder line was drawn slightly higher as I imagined it, then the central ridge line would not come up as high as high as the shoulders. But now I can see that it does. Actually I would still draw the right shoulder a little higher (touching the base of the triangle on the red arrow) but I don't think that would not make any difference to the print assessment (I think the centre ridge would still reach the shoulders.) So that is one thing clearer in my mind!

I agree with the way Martijn's worked this out :
"# The delta may not be located at a bifurcation which does not open toward the core."

'Bifurcation 3, 4 and 5' do not meet this criterium - so we only need to consider the other two!

And because 'bifurcation 1' and 'bifurcation 2' can be recognized as a SERIES OF BIFURCATIONS, we can apply the third rule described at page 12 of the book:

"# When there is a series of bifurcations opening toward the core at the point of divergence of the two type lines, the bifurcation nearest the core is chosen as the delta.

Therefore, at this point in the discussion, I also think that the Delta is at 'bifurcation 1'.
And obviously my see-saw has swung towards radial loop again!

(again, unless I have missed something that persuades me otherwise!)


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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:22 pm

Lynn wrote:I agree that locations 2, 3, and 5 are absolutely not the location of the delta.

I am confused as to why Patti thinks 4 opens to the core. I see it the same as Martijn does, 'opening' downwards.
But will continue reading in case I missed something.
Thanks Lynn!

Regarding your confusion about Patti's words... I think it is obviously that Patti assumes that 'bifurcation 4' could also seen as an 'abutting ridge'. But I can not agree with that, for the following two reasons:

REASON 1 - In my picture with the 5 bifurcations clearly shows that 'bifurcation 4' is composed by three ridge lines that are all pointing in a different direction.... and therefore I should better NOT be described as an 'abutting ridge', because 'bifurcation 4' has all typical characteristics of a 'bifurcation':

REASON 2 - We can also see that the downward pointing 'forking ridge lines' of 'bifurcation 4'... show a high level of SYMMETRY regarding their direction (in the perspective of the single upward pointed branch). And this THE major characteristic of a typical 'bifurcation'!


Therefore we can safely conclude that 'bifurcation 4'... is a 'bifurction' (and not an 'abutting ridge'); which requires that the rules described on page 12 MUST be applied to 'bifurcation 4'.

And this implicates that 'bifurcation 4' can not be the DELTA according the book!

Lynn, does this solve your confusion?


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Post  Lynn on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:28 pm

Patti wrote:
Lynn wrote:I agree that locations 2, 3, and 5 are absolutely not the location of the delta.

I am confused as to why Patti thinks 4 opens to the core. I see it the same as Martijn does, 'opening' downwards.
But will continue reading in case I missed something.

Actually Lynn, I really don't see Item 4 as a bifurcation. Martijn labeled these 5 locations and called them bifurcations and has demanded I respond to specific questions about them. It's okay if you want to describe Item 4 as having radiants that are closer together as facing/opening downward. I already said that today.

I see a line (ridge) rising from Item 1 up to the point on the recurving loop and abutting it.

Remember I don't see a loop. I am working with Martijn's illustrations. No one seems to want to work with my illustrations of a tented arch, so I'm now willing to work with the Light 1937 example.

I am glad that we are down to Locations I and 4.

4 would be characterized as regarding this rule:

● A point on the first recurving ridge located nearest to the center and in front of the divergence of the type lines.

and not necessarily a bifurcation. (I said that already too)

Yes Patti, you did already say that you see 4 as an abuttment rather than a bifurcation, (I haven't considered this point yet)
I take note of the rule about
● A point on the first recurving ridge located nearest to the center and in front of the divergence of the type lines.
and will go have another look! (edit - Martijn posted as I was writing. Will consider this later as to why you think "4" is a bifurcation and not abutting ridge)

btw I prefer the light 1937 print as the ridges appear a lot clearer, I find the 1933 print too dark & confusing to follow the ridges.



Last edited by Lynn on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:28 pm

Ok.
Good.
Gna...gna

You've both settled for putting the delta at location 1. Agreed?

Do you both see that where the radiant rising from location 1 touches location 4?

Do you agree that location 4 is located on the only recurving ridge that could possibly qualify as a looping ridge?

Quickly....we can be done in a few minutes.

bounce
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Post  Lynn on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:34 pm

Patti wrote:You've both settled for putting the delta at location 1. Agreed?

Do you both see that where the radiant rising from location 1 touches location 4?

Do you agree that location 4 is located on the only recurving ridge that could possibly qualify as a looping ridge?

Quickly....we can be done in a few minutes.

bounce

Yes, yes and yes.

(It would be too much to hope that we can be done in a few minutes!) lol!

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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:45 pm

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:You've both settled for putting the delta at location 1. Agreed?

Do you both see that where the radiant rising from location 1 touches location 4?

Do you agree that location 4 is located on the only recurving ridge that could possibly qualify as a looping ridge?

Quickly....we can be done in a few minutes.

bounce

Yes, yes and yes.

(It would be too much to hope that we can be done in a few minutes!) lol!

sunny Well, we can try.

Martijn?
Do I have a "yes, yes and yes." from you?
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:46 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

Thirdly, you stated:

"It really doesn't matter if bifurcation 4 opens to the core."

But this implicates that you choose to ignore DELTA-rule no.1...!!!
And by the way, your argument regarding a 'spoiled' looping ridge line... does not relate to the identification of the DELTA at all!!



I said this, because while looking through the entire book (which is what you should be doing) to illustrate my answer to your questions; I came across another rule.

Which means, even if I were to say OK to you leaving the Delta as the yellow dot you have made it - in the location you have put it. There is a Rule that spoils it.

So while you are arguing over if 1 to 5 are bifurcations, it really doesn't matter.

The rule says there cannot be a line in the "line of fire" (my paraphasing) between the delta and the core.

You have drawn in your top illustration, a dashed yellow line. This yellow line is traced over a darker ridge underneath and all the way up to the Core which you have marked at the top of the rod.

The rule says:
A white space must intervene between the delta and the first ridge count. If no such interval exists, the first ridge must be disregarded. In figures 53 and 54, the first ridge beyond the delta is counted. In figure 55, it is not counted because there is no interval between it and the delta. Notice that the ridge running from the delta toward the core is in a straight line between them. If it were not, of course, an interval would intervene as in figures 53 and 54
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig05311

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1933-112

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig05312

Please read what I am writing. Instead of what you think I am not writing.

Please answer my post with the list of questions so we both know we're on the same page as to what a delta is as a focal point.


Last night I posted this.
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:47 pm

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1933-114
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Post  Patti on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:52 pm

You do both see that with the delta at position 1 and the line that you both have described as existing, so no illusion of ink....... on this line....follow the yellow Wink like path Martijn has drawn, up to the recurving looping ridge and on into the center where you have both agreed on the core.

It doesn't matter if you put the delta on the 1 or 4, either place you lose your ridge count.

I think this rule is in place so people do not confuse that spike sitting upon the horizontal plane and mistake a pattern for a loop.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:23 pm

Patti wrote:Martijn, can you tell in fig. 28 how each of the possible bifurcations "opens to the core" in a V shape? One limb heading going in the direction of one type line and the other line going in the direction of the other type line.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 Fig02812
Patti ... of course I think we all agree that in figure 28 both 'bifurcations' clearly open toward the core. But what else do you want me to describe?

Additionally... please also be aware that even when a 'core' is not positioned directly in front of the 'forking ridge lines'... it still can be described as opening toward the core: figure 33 + figure 45 are examples which illustrate this.


By the way, I think we better should focuss our thoughts on the related details in Disney example:

I think both 'bifurcation 1' and 'bifurcation 2' can be described as "pointing towards the core": see the green extended arrows for 'bifurcation 1'. And one should also be aware how in many 'bifurcations' the path typically re-directs inward: we can see a clear example of this at 'bifurcation 5'.

And I think that the end this could even be decisive factor. But first ... Patti, we really need to agree about at least the DELTA, else it would not make sense to continue this discussion by focussing on other details!

(And Patti... as soon as you can agree with Lynn & me about the DELTA - obviously Lynn and I agree that it can only be positioned at 'bifurcation 1' - then I will probably be able to present a new picture with some important details which relate to the exact shape of some bifurcations, that will illustrate how complex this case really is! Smile )



NOTICE: See also the extra red arrows that illustrate how the continuing path of the 'forking ridge lines' slightly changes in some bifurcations, especially 'bifurcation 5'.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 1937-l25

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Post  Lynn on Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:29 pm

Martijn, what do you think of Patti's latest 2 msgs. sounds convincing to me!

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 16 23


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