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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:21 pm


hand dance

Lynn, I have finished my new study (which includes the more advanced method described by Danuta Loesch for finding the SHOULDER LINE).

But first... I would like to report a new discovery regarding the 1933 print.


Remember Patti's upthrust-theories based on 2 phenomena seen in the 1933 print? (See the picture below)

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 1933-s11

I described my doubts about both associations, because I observed that both phenomena could easly be adressed as a result from the abundance of ink + a side-effect of the creases (which are visible in all 3 prints that we study).


Before I started my new more detailed study I first made sure that the rotation-effects & the sizes of all 3 prints matches almost 100%r. I used again the 'layer-technique' (based on matching coordincates) that I also used in earlier pictures (first I created again a layer with some marks in for the 'LIGHT 1937 print', and afterwards I copy-and-pasted the layer to the other two prints).


And guess what?
cyclops ... I made a brand new 'amusing' discovery...

Because now we can clearly see in the new pictures the characteristics of the 'spike' on the northern side of the 'looping ridge line' - REMEMBER: Patti has tried with several approache to describe the 'spike' with various suggestions, including: it could be an 'uptrust', a 'continuing ridge line', or a 'short ridge with a right angle of 45 degrees ( Smile )... that would for sure spoil the looping ridge line'.


Actually, only a few days ago I posted an additonal observation for that 'spike', because after ZOOMING in even further on the 1933 print - I noticed that the 'spike' actually appeared to make two connections: one directed to the North-West, and the otherone directed to the South.


Let's take a look at some early results of my new analysis:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 1937-l26

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 1937-d11

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 1933-r10

"A picture is worth a 1000 words"..... geek


scratch It has now become clear that the 1933 Disney print had so many hidden surprizes.

Because during the past 2 weeks none of us was able to recognize that the so-called 'spike', is nothing but a large ink dot that is actually clearly connecting both of the upward directed branches of 'bifurcation 5'...!!!


In the picture below I have highlighted a few of the other ink dots (as red dots) that are seen in the 1933 print:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 1933-s12


By the way, this last picture also includes some of the dots that I described in an earlier picture - the following picture is taken from page 6 of this discussion:

(Obviously, backthen I did not recognize that what appeared to be a 'spike' can now clearly be identified as one of the many (large) inkdots that are found all over the 1933 print, again: see the 4th picture above in this post).

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Patti-28


lol!

After unveiling this new 'surprizing' discovery, I am inclined to say that we can no longer accept the 1933 print as a reliable picture, because we simply can not rely on what we see in that print.

Rembemer, the strange 'white patch' (not seen at all in the other two prints) was the first example that we were able to identify... but when it takes 2 weeks to find out that what appeared to manifest a strange 'spike' is simply nothing but an ink dot between two ridge lines ( rolling on the floor )... then I think the time arrived to say "bye-bye" to this print.


PS. Also, let's not forget how this fingerprint was made: it came from a handprint where the fingerprint on the pinky finger was not visible at all (as reported by Patti), a clear indication that the person who made the handprint in 1933... was probably focussed at all on producing high quality fingerprints.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:00 am


Lynn, after I described so many details about quite a few issues... I now prefer to simply present my new picturess.

But I will feature it wil a few comments about the 7 steps that I made to create my new pictures:

The three new pictures illustrate that this fingerprint 'probably' has a 'RIDGE COUNT = 2'; confirmed by both 1937 prints, but I admit... this is not confimered by the 1933 print!!


STEP 1 - First of all, I made ZOOMED version (1800%) for each of the three prints and I made sure that each of the picture now are presented with matching coordinates (compared to my former presentation of the three pictures I had to rotate the 'dark 1937 print' with an counter-clock angle of 1.2 degreese, and I had to rotate (0.6 degrees counter-clock-wise) + resize the 1933 print as well).


STEP 2 - Then I have created a layer for the 1937 where I have highlighted our agreed DELTA + the exact path of the inner ridge line and the 'looping ridge line' + the path of the ridges in 'bifurcation 4' + 'bifurcation 5'.

(The details that I described so far relate to the pictures in my former post!)


STEP 3 - Then I have used some GREEN ARROWS to show the major re-directions in the highlighted ridge lines. It is important here to notice that the green arrows indicate that in both 'bifurcations' each of the 'forking ridge lines' re-direct inwards AFTER they have become seperate.


STEP 4 - Then I have tried apply the method describe by Danuta Loesch, see the PURPLE LINES (the left line is only shorter, because I stopped that line at the point where the right 'forking line of bifurcation 5' re-directs inward): I think I managed to create a result that looks symmetrical... however, there is a small angle difference. But I think it is interesting to see how both lines end in the center of the next ridge line!


STEP 5 - Then I have drawn the SHOULDER LINE with the LIGHT BLUE line.

NOTICE: while looking at the details I noticed that in my earlier attempts to locate the SHOULDER line, I have made an obvious mistake: because I located the LEFT SHOULDER at the center of the point of the 'splitting' - that I only one day later began to describe as 'bifurcation 5'.

When I made my earlier attempt to locate the SHOULDER LINE... I had not started studying the details of all 5 'bifurcations', and certainly not their shapes.

So, because I now realize that the LEFT SHOULDER must begin above 'bifurcation 5', this explains why the right part of the SHOULDER LINE is now located lower than the left part of the SHOUDER LINE. But only the left part has moved upward!

Because after apply Danuta Loesch's method (with the PURPLE LINES) I noticed that your suggestion to put the right part of the SHOULDER LINE a little upward... was excellent! For, in my new picture the locations of the right shoulder has not changed at all!

Thumb up

STEP 6 - Finally... when observing the end point of the 'central ridge line' in the pictures below, we can now see how it does not reach the shoulder in both versions of the '1937 print' - because I had to move the left part of the SHOUDER upward!

rolling on the floor But if we look at the '1933 print', we can see that in that print the 'central ridge line' does reach above the SHOULDER LINE.... but we should also be aware that this is probably also a direct result of the abundance of ink in the '1933 print'.


STEP 7 - Because we can now see that in both '1937 prints' does not reach the SHOULDER LINE, the 'core' in this print indeed shifts towards the right part of the SHOULDER... which results for both prints in a 'ridge count = 2'.... because the line between the DELTA and 'bifurcation 4' is not directed towards the (new) core.

thinking Okay, this reminds us of another great point that Patti made: figure 55 in the book.

But there are quite a few differences observable: figure 55 presents for example a connecting ridge line that makes on both sides a 'right angle' with the looping ridge line, and in that situation there is really no way to reach from the DELTA to the 'core'... that to follow that line completely.

But in our situation we are confronted with a 'forking line part' that comes from a bifurcation... and this line also has a small 'curve'!

Also, I observed that the book describes on page 17 that it really requires a 'straight line' + no 'white space' at all ... in order to 'discount' a first ridge count.

So, regaring our case of 'ridge count 2' - I think there is no need to enter a discussion about if we should 'discount' the first ridge count. Because, afterall... we only need a 'ridge count = 1' in order to classify this pattern as a RADIAL LOOP.


PS. Even when we would continue with the 'core' in the location that we ussumed so far (at the inner ridge line), the connecting line between 'bifurcation 1' and 'bifurcation 4'... does provide a few differences with the situation described in figure 55. Because it is not a straight line and therefore could even depend on which print we prefered to use... because in the 'dark 1937 print' I can now clearly observe that the connecting does NOT direct towards the 'core', if we would only consider that print... both the DELTA and the CORE would shift slightly!

(And regarding this aspect in the '1933 print'... there is for sure no 'white space' but we can harldy use that print to study the details... because of the adundance of ink, etc.)


So, even in that situation ... this discussion would not be over yet: because of the details!


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 1937-l27

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 1937-d12

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 1933-r11

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:28 am

applause Amazing presentation Wink

So, is this it?

Are you done?

No more adjustments?

Checked all the rules and you feel confident?

p.s. : Maybe the angle made by those fushia lines crossing and meeting in the center of the ridge above is the reason you couldn't continue with your loop formula. You were now working with an angle.


STEP 4 - Then I have tried apply the method describe by Danuta Loesch, see the PURPLE LINES (the left line is only shorter, because I stopped that line at the point where the right 'forking line of bifurcation 5' re-directs inward): I think I managed to create a result that looks symmetrical... however, there is a small angle difference. But I think it is interesting to see how both lines end in the center of the next ridge line!
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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:14 am

Martijn...I'll respond to points in your presentation, once you have informed me that you have finished and are illustrating a radial loop.

Thanks!
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:33 am

Patti wrote: applause Amazing presentation Wink

So, is this it?

...

No Patti, this is not 'it'. My focuss in this discussion has became to find agreement about this fingerprint based on the rules described in the book (and of course Danuta Loesch's technical approach is helpful to apply the rules for finding the SHOULDER LINE).

So, I think it would now make sense to see if we can find any agreement regarding the position of the SHOULDER LINE. But it was not easy at all to find this result that I present because the problem here is that we are faced with a rather small asymmetrical loop.


While I earlier had only talked about the possibility of a 'ridge count = 2' (when we had not even located the DELTA at a specific location), now that Lynn and I agreed about the location of the DELTA (by following all related rules)... the time has arrived to see if we can also find an agreement about the SHOULDER LINE, which obviously is the most problematic aspect of this print!

(Without Loesch's approach the result would have probably looked the same, because basically I only concluded that it was necessary to adjust the position of the left part of the SHOULDER only - based on the path of 'bifurcation 5').


And because the 'bifurications' inside the looping ridge line do not spoil the 'looping ridge line', and there are no 'spikes', 'upthrusts', etc. at all... the (current) agreement about the triradius now only requires to find agreement about the position of 'core' (via the issue of the SHOULDER LINE).

But we now at least have a full visual perspective of this fingerprint. Any specified comment, question or objection is welcome!

Smile

PS. Regarding Loesch's approach, the angles in her pictures are the key-fact (the mathmatical aspects in terms of formulas have only theoretical value... unitil anyone would ask me to deliver the details regarding the angles in my picture. Wink )

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:58 am

Patti wrote:Martijn...I'll respond to points in your presentation, once you have informed me that you have finished and are illustrating a radial loop.

Thanks!
Patt, I am finished (though maybe your feedback or Lynn's feedback might give me a reason to make an adjustment).

Regarding 'seeing' the loop... Patti, I hope you can find it in the picture below which present only the key-elements (taken from my presentation), otherwise I think I am not able to help you out with this specific question.


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 1937-r10

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:01 am

Thank you!

I would like to offer the following, so that if you need to make any adjustments, this information may be helpful.

It's from:

"Dermatoglyphics and Medicine" Lionel S. Penrose 1971 pg. 14 (Dr. Loesch was actually quoting from Penrose with the calculations - they were not her discovery)

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should10

So..., I guess I'm asking, if you're going to make any adjustments, they'll be somewhat minor, up a little here, down a little there?
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:27 am

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should11

Martijn,
What do you think of Lynn's suggestion of a trifurcation?
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:56 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn,
What do you think of Lynn's suggestion of a trifurcation?
A trifurcation???

That requires that 3 ridge lines 'split' from the same location and they are also required to sort of continue in the same direction (as parallel ridges).



I had never seen one ever before, but here is an example (starting in the second ridge line above the core, the three ridges flow to right.. though the details show that the lower branch is not very strong and also 'feeded' by the first line above the core):
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Fdsi-trifurcation.PICT

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:06 am

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Tented12

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Tented13

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Tented14

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Tented15

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Fig17612

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 A_tent14

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should12

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Fig13411

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should13

Hi Martijn,
I see you have removed the angled lines in your latest presentation of a radial loop.

In response to your earlier drawing I wanted to call your attention to the concept of how loops are viewed and how they are affected when *angles* are presented.

Your drawings lately are remarkable in how there are an unusual number of angles found in and around the central portion of Walt Disney's left index fingerprint.

(underlined text is from Penrose)



"The Science of Fingerprints"

"Angles are never formed by a single ridge but by the abutting of one ridge against another. Therefore, an angular formation cannot be used as a type line."



How do you think this fingerprint pattern is influenced by so many angles?



Last edited by Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:41 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added figure 134)
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:08 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn,
What do you think of Lynn's suggestion of a trifurcation?
A trifurcation???

That requires that 3 ridge lines 'split' from the same location and they are also required to sort of continue in the same direction (as parallel ridges).



I had never seen one ever before, but here is an example (starting in the second ridge line above the core, the three ridges flow to right.. though the details show that the lower branch is not very strong and also 'feeded' by the first line above the core):
X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Fdsi-trifurcation.PICT

That looks like an ending ridge lying next to a bifurcation. Unless I missed it. Can you outline it?
Patti
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:17 am

Patti wrote:
...
How do you think this fingerprint pattern is influenced by so many angles?
scratch ... I guess your question might require a consideration from the perspective of 'volar pad' development. Is that what you had in mind as well?

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:19 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
...
How do you think this fingerprint pattern is influenced by so many angles?
scratch ... I guess your question might require a consideration from the perspective of 'volar pad' development. Is that what you had in mind as well?

No classification.
in a minute...
next post.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:25 am

Patti wrote:
That looks like an ending ridge lying next to a bifurcation. Unless I missed it. Can you outline it?

It was presented by this source as a 'trifurcation':
http://www.realcurriculum.com/scopecurriculum/_fingerprint_detective/images.htm


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Trifur10

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
Martijn (admin)
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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:28 am

"The Science of Fingerprints"

Figures 122 to 124 are of the type possessing an angle.

Figures 125 to 129 reflect the type possessing an upthrust.

Figures 130 to 133 show the type approaching the loop but lacking one characteristic.

Tented arches and some forms of the loop are often confused. It should be remembered by the reader that the mere converging of two ridges does not form a recurve, without which there can be no loop. On the other hand, there are many patterns which at first sight resemble tented arches but which on close inspection are found to be loops, as where one looping ridge will be found in an almost vertical position within the pattern area, entirely free from and passing in front of the delta.

Figure 134 is a tented arch.
The ridge marked "A—A" in the sketch enters on one side of the impression and flows to the other with an acute rise in the center.

Ridge C strikes into A at point B and should not be considered as a bifurcating ridge. The ridges marked "D—D" would form a tented arch if the rest of the pattern were absent.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Fig13410

Notice the similarities between the two angles?

Where you originally placed your diagonal purple lines, it appeared as a peak. The other where you have placed your delta.

Key locations, too.

What do you think of those facts?
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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:29 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
That looks like an ending ridge lying next to a bifurcation. Unless I missed it. Can you outline it?

It was presented by this source as a 'trifurcation':
http://www.realcurriculum.com/scopecurriculum/_fingerprint_detective/images.htm


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Trifur10

Oh. Thanks. I was looking just under that, on the right, facing downwards.

Haven't you drawn in the valleys rather than on the ridges??
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:00 am

Patti wrote:
...

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Fig13410

Notice the similarities between the two angles?

Where you originally placed your diagonal purple lines, it appeared as a peak. The other where you have placed your delta.

Key locations, too.

What do you think of those facts?

Patti, I do recognize the similarities with the Disney print but the major difference is with the Disney print is obviously that in example 134 there is no 'recurve' at all

(At point B there is only a clear abutting line because there is: one straight line + an abutting line that enters at a right angle)

Therefore it is a 'tented arch' (and not a loop).

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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:12 am

Wow Thanks for the Link!!!
Great photos. Notice how in some the ridges are so close together that if they were ink printed they would have places that it looked like they were overinked!?

Check these out!

Look at the dots at the top each ridge at the center of the top photo.

In the second photo notice the single dot of a ridge sitting on top of a ridge.
Imagine how these would look if inked printed.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Spikef10

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Dot_pi10

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Spiked10

Notice in the above image the innermost looping like ridges. Notice how the one ridge crosses over the other at the recurves of the loops of whorl, creating a SPIKE!

Interesting to study as I've also presented this idea based on Disney's right index finger and it's angular central pattern and it's classification of a whorl.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should14

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Right_12
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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:53 am

I anticipated that you would attempt to discredit the 1933 print as over inked.

Here was my premeditated response:

Yellow arrows show spikes and short upthrusts on all three prints.

Blue arrows illustrate the type lines - following the appropriate rules for type lines. Two parallel ridges that diverge.

Green arrows point out some kind of projection that is apparent on all three prints.

Red arrow follows the direction of the outer side of the possible recurving ridge.

Orange arrow and Red arrows create a right angle in the 1933 print. Which later reminded me of your purple lines based on the pages from Loesch's book.

Purple arrows show how the ridge that rises from location 1 to location 4 angle so that it makes a right angle to the inner ridge.


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Spikes13

Here is what you soon presented, after dismissing what you called inkspots.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 1937-d12

Which also reminded me of this:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Fig13412

So I set about applying the inspiration from Penrose's book, because I thought my orange line in the 1933 print looked a whole lot like his example of "an angle between radius & tangent at intersection".

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 3-8-2011

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Spikes12

Although, I admit, I hadn't a clue about how to apply an equation with confocal parabolas (is that a type of banana????) I drew a few more lines.

I started by drawing my purple lines horizontal to each other and in the only direction that allowed the entire pattern, that appears to be a loop, to be contained within.

I was pleasantly surprised.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should16

The Purple line on the far side touched the ridge (and your red line in direct line with the spike/not inkspot. It also was the same location the orange arrow touched in the other prints.

Then, I drew the shoulder line. This being the Green line. And here was another amazing connection. The other shoulder was at Location 4!! Which is also the same location I thought should be the Delta (you remember my purple dot?)

It appears that the Blue dot that you placed at the end of the rod, or upthrust, rises sufficiently to touch the Green shoulder line. Therefore it is the location of the Core.

A Yellow line is drawn from where you think the Delta should be placed, the Yellow line indicates that it (or the short purple arrow in the image farther up) is in direct line to the core. This spoils a white space between this Delta and the Delta moves to the first outer recurving ridge. Which is the only ridge. This causes there to be no ridge count between the delta and the core. A Tented Arch is the result.

Interesting that this Yellow Line aligning the Delta to the shoulders is again intersecting Location 4, along with the Purple Line which aligned the parallel shoulders, The Green Shoulder Line and your Red lines!!

Location 4 has turned out to be a very important location, after all!

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should17

and again I'm reminded of this image of a tented arch:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Fig13412

and I think your impossible radial loop is nowhere near as pretty as Walt Disney's


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 A_tent15


Tented Arch


X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should16






Last edited by Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : uploaded wrong image at top so showed correction)
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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Empty Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:49 pm

Patti wrote:...

So I set about applying the inspiration from Penrose's book, because I thought my orange line in the 1933 print looked a whole lot like his example of "an angle between radius & tangent at intersection".

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 3-8-2011

...

Patti, I recognize how you used the line in picture 2.10b... but that picture actually only relates to the triradius. Only picture 2.10a relates to the loop!


PS. The text in your photocopy picture (b) ... "Geometry of loops and triradii"... is only the title of page 17 ... and page 15.

And I could continue with observations like that your arrows clearly CROSS the ridge lines.... the coordinates of your arrows do no match in the three pictures... and you are still trying to interpretate INK DOTS that are not seen in what Lynn & I agreed as the print that presents the best quality: the 'light 1937 print'.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:39 pm

Patti wrote:...
Although, I admit, I hadn't a clue about how to apply an equation with confocal parabolas (is that a type of banana????) I drew a few more lines.

I started by drawing my purple lines horizontal to each other and in the only direction that allowed the entire pattern, that appears to be a loop, to be contained within.

I was pleasantly surprised.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should16

The Purple line on the far side touched the ridge (and your red line in direct line with the spike/not inkspot. It also was the same location the orange arrow touched in the other prints.

Then, I drew the shoulder line. This being the Green line. And here was another amazing connection. The other shoulder was at Location 4!! Which is also the same location I thought should be the Delta (you remember my purple dot?)

...
Patti, it is also important to notice that 2.10a only represents the RIGHT side of a loop (= the 'parabola'):

This implicates that the 'tangent at intersection' (of the RIGHT side of the loop) will cross the other 'tanget of intersection' (of the LEFT side of the loop)... at some distance from the 'top' of the recurve. And you should also be aware that the 'top' of the recurve is found close to the end point of the 'central ridge line'

But your purple lines do not cross at all!
And you actually have drawn your upper purple line almost through the 'top of the recurve'!!

Again you should have drawn the lines at positions with angles which relate to the situation described fig.2.10a... which is the only picture of the two that relates to the loop.


PS. This reminds me again about that you once described that a 'right angle' could also relate to an angle of 45 degrees... that comment was a clear misinterpretatioin of how a 'right angle' is described according mathmatics.

And compared to all angle-issues mentioned in the F.B.I. book, the Penrose method presented by Loesch is far more complex - because for understanding those pictures... proper understanding of the mathmatic rules for angles is required.


PPS. Regarding your association of a 'parabola' with a banana, that was a funny, but also... an accurate comment! Thumbs up! (Unfortunately it might have been the only comment in your last post that I am able to support)

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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:03 pm

lol!

Oh!

I'm sorry!

I forgot to add the illustration for the proper method to locate the shoulders.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should18

Once you draw your lines, the location of the shoulders is obvious and simple to find.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should19
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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:16 pm

And yes you may be right. The shoulders perhaps should be set a smidgen higher.

Wink
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:35 pm

Patti wrote: lol!

Oh!

I'm sorry!

I forgot to add the illustration for the proper method to locate the shoulders.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should18

Patti, you probably missed that the 'shoulder line' in my new pictures... actually looks quite like example 4... though in example 4 it is positioned even higher!


Patti wrote:
Once you draw your lines, the location of the shoulders is obvious and simple to find.

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should19

Another problem with your attempt is that you IGNORED the fact that (edit:) we are confronted with an upcurving loop. Your shoulder lines are not SYMMETRIC positioned at each side of the CENTRAL RIDGE LINE and (edit:) especially it's end point... nor the 'top' of the recurve!


Regarding the 'top' of the recurve... you did not even TRY to locate it in your picture; but if you start doing that (which really requires to be somewhere near the center between your pinks lines), you will notice that the 'sharpest' point of the recurve is actually seen very close to your upper pink line.


Patti, it is obvious to me that you made many obvious mistakes... because your pink lines do not follow any requirement that is described in pictures presented by Loesch, nor the few descriptions described in the F.B.I book.

Again... you should face the fact that the Disney print present an ASYMMETRIC looping ridge line + please you should start considering the details in figure 2.10a...!

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Post  Patti on Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:08 pm

There is nothing in the rules that tell you to follow the direction of a rod to find the shoulders.

I did consider the possibility of example 4. I also thought you would favor it as well.

But, it really isn't to your advantage either. That would move the left should a whole lot higher. Both shoulders would then be about where I put them here:

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Rebutt21

Since this method matched all of the examples except 4, and the idea appeared to enclose the loop when possible, other attempts seemed 'unnatural'

X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic! - Page 19 Should20

The Yellow dot indicates where you have placed the Delta.

The rules state, as you frequently reminded me, that when there are mutliple bifurcations you must move the Delta to the closest bifurcation that is open to the core, and is out in front of the diverging parallel type lines.

Since you and I both observed that there is another bifurcation on the ridges from the Yellow dot to the Purple dot (location 4). This new Delta (hot pink dot) is now the official Delta.

Since this hot pink Delta has a ridge line between it and the next ridge, the ridge it touches cannot be counted in the ridge count. Rod is too low now to be included in the count, so the Core goes to the far shoulder. Core and Delta can not be included in the ridge count, so there is no count and the recurve is spoiled.

No matter how you slice and dice it, it is always a Tented Arch!


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