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Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

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Visions for the starting point of the Heartline - Page 2 Empty Re: Visions for the starting point of the Heartline

Post  Martijn (admin) Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:52 pm

Manfred wrote:Dear Martijn,

you wrote: "So I think your input in the other discussion actually CONFIRMS my observation that the idea that the heart line starts below the pinky finger... should be recognized as the only true 'traditional approach'."

I absolutely agree with you in this point!

Within the last months I completed my collection by some old chiromanty books printed around 1500 and they all include this point of view. ...

Very nice to hear that confirmed Manfred!

Thanks!

___________________________________________
sunny

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Manfred Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:07 am

Dear Patty and Martijn,

I'm just out of office for several days. When I'll be back I'll put in here two drawings of Bartholomaeus della Roccas (Cocles) book. It was possible to draw copies of the icnluding pictures in the Bavarian library because it isn't allowed to make any fotos or electronical copies.
It's interesting to read and know the expressions and declarations of this, one of the oldest Occidental chiromancy books. An excample as an addition our topic here: He called the heart line the line of moral, too.

Regards
Manfred

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Post  Patti Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:53 pm

Magda van Dijk-Rijneke wrote:Vision master class for the location of the Heart Line

Several texts from the books of my colleagues

Ulnar side
The Indian School of Handanalysis teaches that the Heartline begins ulna side.
All my German colleagues (23) talking about the ulna side. In 1932 the German Rudolf Engelhardt wrote all about this difference of view.
The Italian Maria Gardini writes that not so long ago that tried to introduce some Chiromanten that the Heartline begins from the mount of Jupiter. But turned back because it lacked logic.
Bevely Jaeger taught first one until she discovered that the line from the ulna started and gave a totally different outlook on the Handanalysis.
The Chinese palmistry, the waterline on which from the start ulna. (Neal Criscuolo, Terence Duke).
Darlene Hansen
believes that the line begins ulna because the little finger with intimate relationships and to do all kinds of communication. Emotions are subjective. And the channel of the Heartline runs from the unconscious conscious side to the side.
Rhoda (study 1960) writes that recently has been discovered that the Line of emotions from the start ulna. She had taught the traditional doctrine and was always confused. Now she is much happier about the modern version
Lori Reid describes again the more traditional analysts using the Heartline from the Jupiter finger will come.
Lori Reid and Jaegers Bevely found from experience that all emotions are instinctive, so it was logical that the Heartline of the instinctive (ulna) side of the hand begins.


Radius side
Benham
(USA) finds that the Heartline from the Jupiter begins. His assumption is that the life stream flowing through the Jupiter finger and that on that side of the hand is spread like rivers. The blood stream. He learned it from gypsies. Benham was a pioneer and brought his teachings to America and is based on their own studies. In 1900 he wrote the book The Laws of Scientific Hand Reading. This book is still being translated and used in America but is quite outdated. There are no special marks meaning on the lines in his work and that is a major drawback for the development of the Chirology.


Note: Many Americans have learned to use the radius side, but know nothing of this hypothesis. That’s way, many books still use this, but the book Encyclopedia of Palmistry by Edward Campbell, who reveals the origin.


Yaschpaule writes; The Indian School of Handanalysis generally considers the Heartline as starting from the ulna side. Yaschpaule research suggest that it starts from the area of the Mount of Jupiter is. He said that Benham also holds this point of view.
Katakkar (India) describes the disagreement between the Hindu and Western education as follows. According tot the Western convention, the Headline starts on the mount of Jupiter (???) and according to the Hindu method, it starts under the mount of Mercury, ulna side. Katakkar described how it sounded logical but still prefer the traditionalists (see point 1) radius did.
Dylan Warren-Davis talks about the Jupiter line that starts from the ulna and runs to the Mount of Jupiter. He thinks the Jupiter properties great influence on the Heartline.
Peter West writes about it, but prefers the traditional (Radius) way, but does not say why.
Magda van Dijk-Rijneke writes in her book Universal Palmistry also that the Headline starts from the ulna side and teaches that also her students at the School of Universal Handanalysis/Palmistry
Ray Douglas writes that there are three lines of a stream of messages to symbolize the human soul. The Jupiter-Saturn properties, as it were through the emotional life (Heartline) submitted. The Jupiterheart may overflow the Saturnheart. He sees Jupiter as the primary source of the three main streams of consciousness.


Hi Magda,
While researching something else I noticed that Noel Jaquin goes into your list of heart lines that start (and are dated) from the Radial side.

"The Heart line begins usually between the first and second fingers and ends on the percussion and is read in this order." Chiro-Psychology Noel Jaquin and Vera Compton
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Post  Magda van Dijk-Rijneke Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:40 pm


Dear Patti, Wow I have a also a very old yellowed book from Noele Jaquin: The signature of time.We can put this book on the list. Vera Compton, I do not know her



Dear Patti, Manfred, Martijn and Parender,

Incidentally, the first part of my article and listing covers what I have achieved in my 188 books. Not I, but they were talking about the traditionalists, modern traditionalists and modernists. I found one book back again, see the book by Peter West Lifelines. Peter West writes about it, but prefer the traditional (Radius) way, but does not say why? So I hope that every body had read more than only that part.

Annyway, maybe I am wrong, but none of the MHR Forum writes about his own experience, the experiences of the radiusside or
ulnaside, beside Parender Sethi. See my detailed vision and those from the master class. Than we have still the question, why the radius end of the Heartline is always thinner or even to extend?

The Information of Edward and Martijn about the origins of the Heartline is very interesting and neccessary to introduce as a new topic.



Warm regards

Magda

</SPAN>

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Post  Manfred Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:11 pm

Dear Magda,

I work with the start of the heart line on the ulnar side.

We've discussed the topic in every forum before and again and again. Sometimes I've got hot replies about my point of view. The scientific meaning isn't all other than new.

Sometimes I've stored statements like this of Patti from the 10th January 2004. I think it is from the Handreading Cyber Cafe (thank you Lynn, it was a great time!) sunny :

"....I wonder tho researchers who are studying deceased fetuses are looking at the radial side of the girdle of venus or actually the heart line beginnings....they can do longer watch what happens as developement is creased...."

Regards
Manfred

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Post  Patti Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:14 pm

Manfred wrote:Dear Magda,

I work with the start of the heart line on the ulnar side.

We've discussed the topic in every forum before and again and again. Sometimes I've got hot replies about my point of view. The scientific meaning isn't all other than new.

Sometimes I've stored statements like this of Patti from the 10th January 2004. I think it is from the Handreading Cyber Cafe (thank you Lynn, it was a great time!) sunny :

"....I wonder tho researchers who are studying deceased fetuses are looking at the radial side of the girdle of venus or actually the heart line beginnings....they can do longer watch what happens as developement is creased...."

Regards
Manfred

You gave me a big smile Manfred!

I still agree with myself.

wave
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Post  Manfred Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:48 pm

Dear Patti,

you are wellcome Thumbs up!

Sorry, I've made a mistake. The end of the sentence was: "...they can no longer watch what happens as developement is ceased..."

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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:20 am

Magda van Dijk-Rijneke wrote:...

Dear Patti, Manfred, Martijn and Parender,

Incidentally, the first part of my article and listing covers what I have achieved in my 188 books. Not I, but they were talking about the traditionalists, modern traditionalists and modernists. I found one book back again, see the book by Peter West Lifelines. Peter West writes about it, but prefer the traditional (Radius) way, but does not say why? So I hope that every body had read more than only that part.

Hi Magda,

Thank you for explaining this! Thumbs up!


PS. Peter West mentions that there is a 'third party': those who argue that the heart line does not have a starting point nor an ending point (as an argument he is refering to the varying structure at the radial side).

I don't understand his argument regarding this 'third party', but history shows that his choice of words is wrong: his view (heart line starts at the ulnar side) should better be described as the 'traditional view', because in the ancient India people had already used that view.

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:04 am

Magda van Dijk-Rijneke wrote:... Than we have still the question, why the radius end of the Heartline is always thinner or even to extend?

Yes, usually the ulnar part (at the pinky side) of the heart line is wider than the radial part (at thethumb side) ... but not always!

For example: have you ever heard of the 'hockeystick'-crease?

See:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t410-the-hockey-stick-crease-a-characteristic-in-charge-fetal-alcohol-syndrome

Visions for the starting point of the Heartline - Page 2 Hockey-stick-palmar-crease


Magda, the answer to your question is found in the anatomy of the hand (and it's early development!). There are probably at least two patterns involved in the typical structure of the heart line:


ASPECT 1 - When a line ends at the edge of the palm, it's structure is usually wide at the point where the line reaches the edge. This is usually also seen in:
- horizontal lines in the mount of moon which end at the ulnar edge of the palm;
- mars lines which end at the radial edge of the palm
- the hockey-stick crease, where the upper part ends at the edge between the pointer finger & middle finger (see the picture below).

When a line ends at the edge of the palm this is likely to cause extra 'stress' in the skin.


ASPECT 2 - But especially when the location of the lines is positioned close to the outer edges of the hand bones (one can think about the 'knuckles' of the finger bones, the 'knuckles' of the metacarpals, and the 'wrist bones') this appears to create additional 'stresses' in the skin - due to the movements involved with the 'knuckles' & 'wrist bones'.


Combining these two ASPECTS is helpful to understand why the outer edges of the life-, heart- and head line are usually the most prominent aspects of the hand lines. Because those are usually the only points of hand where both ASPECTS are involved!

Additionally, the upper ending of the 'hockey-stick crease' and the lower ending of the fate line (especially when it reaches close towards the wrist bones) can have an almost likewise strong structure.


Finally, it is also important to notice here that these structures do not directly relate to how the lines develop in the hand. Because medical researchers have observed that in embryos the ulnar part of the heart line (= wider part) starts developing in a later phase in the development of the body compared to the radial part of the heart line (= the narrower part).

And a likewise pattern is seen regarding the development of the fate line: in embryos this lines starts developing in the upper half of the palm, and the wider part becomes manifest in a later phase in the development of the body.


PS. Reading more about the early development of the hand lines might be required to visualize what I have just described - various 'palmistry' authors have written about certain aspects that I have just described. I can recommend the works of: Hachiro Asano ('Hands'), Ed Campbell (his website article 'Fingerprints & Dermatoglyphics'), and David Brandon-Jones & Veronica Bennett (Your Palm - Barometer of your health).

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Manfred Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:10 am

Hi Martijn,

first of all it think its a great difference between the early embyonic developement and a child after birth. I think everyone who accompanied the birth of a child will agree that the first cry is big step. It's like a big step over a threshold when the concious awaiks or when the soul comes in, how the older said.

But I agree in the point that it can be interesting to read the heart line from the radial or both sides if we work on the field of characterological chirology.

But it's quite different if we read the heart line chronologically, what Cheiro doesn't and I don't know if Benham does though he shows a heart line time scale in his "Scientific hand reading...".

For this reason I would prefer according to your former vote:
"traditional view of chronologically hand reading".

Regards
Manfred

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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:07 pm

Manfred wrote:... But it's quite different if we read the heart line chronologically, what Cheiro doesn't and I don't know if Benham does though he shows a heart line time scale in his "Scientific hand reading...".

Hi Manfred,

When authors present a time-scale for a line, it is obvious that they read the line chronologically. Benham has indeed presented a time-scale for the heart line in his 'The Benham Book of Palmistry'.

It is very obvious that William G. Benham read the heart line in the reversed order that you are using today - though, he used it probably with exactly the same purpose that you have in mind with your approach.

Actually, I don't understand the basis your doubts about how he used his model. Can you explain your doubts? (I see no argument to put any doubt about how Benham used his timing-model for the heart line)


Nevertheles, yes, I can confirm what you described about Cheiro's work regarding this topic. Cheiro indeed talked about the same starting point for the heart line, without talking about any time scale.

However, Cheiro also used this approach beyond 'characterology', because he e.g. talks about signs resulting from influences of people. However, it is obvious that Cheiro only applies his 'system of seven' to the life line and fate line - which he obviously considered as most important in the perspective of timing.

I guess the implication of his work is that Cheiro's work doesn't support the idea that 'timing' can be applied to the heart line and the head line.


PS. Manfred, not sure what you have in mind regarding "... a great difference between the early embyonic developement and a child after birth".

These words sound a bit that you simply want to exclude the embryological argument from this discussion - via a theological statement regarding the soul....? Be aware: consciousness is by principle a matter of definition, but I think abortion laws indicate that conscious is likely to start manifesting even months before birth. I am quite sure that the 'pro-life movement' would give many arguments to confirm this!

Also, maybe even more importance:

Please be aware that the embryological observations actually provide a basis for Benham & Cheiro's innovative approaches regarding the starting point of the heart line!!!

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Manfred Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:28 pm

Dear Martijn,

about Benham:
- He shows a heart line scale but at no place an excample of use or evedence on base of a case of study.
- One more again: There are very curious excamples of heart lines in his book (Nr.: 34 - 47 in the chapter about the heart line).

It's not possible for me to repeat the same discussion - for excample about the embryonic and born child state - in all the needed depth again.

The simple question of Magda went in the direction:
What are our practical experience and way of use. Above there is my answer.

If I'm allowed to give any advice to a hand reader that is looking for it: Instead of trusting numbers, ideas or findings of someone, trust what lasts on base of your own life reading experience.

Regards
Manfred

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Post  Martijn (admin) Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:57 pm

Manfred wrote:about Benham
- He shows a heart line scale but at no place an excample of use or evedence on base of a case of study.
- One more again: There are very curious excamples of heart lines in his book (Nr.: 34 - 47 in the chapter about the heart line).

Manfred, what you described in the quote are just observations - but do they really matter for this topic?

I believe that it is usually quite easy to point out to elements that are not presented in a book. However, not sure that one can use that as a valid argument to support ones own view.

And yes of course: everybody is very welcome to share their experience.

But if you think that other authors (or discussion partners at this forum) have been using poor / unfair / misleading / unrealistic arguments, then I would appreciate if you try to point that out by detail.


(Sorry, I am also skepdic regarding your second argument about Benham: I don't see how Benham's drawn pictures could disqualify his 'tming'-model for the heart line.)

Anyway, I hope that my critical feedback will help you to find/formulate stronger arguments that might support your vision much more.


PS. I know your time is limited. But I wonder: do you have shared more arguments in other topics at this forum? - If so, it would be helpful to simply present a link to that topic or preferably the post where you shared your other arguments.


Thanks!

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  Patti Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:18 pm

Manfred wrote:
If I'm allowed to give any advice to a hand reader that is looking for it: Instead of trusting numbers, ideas or findings of someone, trust what lasts on base of your own life reading experience.

Regards
Manfred

Thumbs up!

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Post  Manfred Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:28 pm

Dear Matrijn,

I'm bearing your "critical" arguments very much sunny I hope you'll do it too, if I'll stop here my constibution.

Regards
Manfred

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Post  Patti Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:50 pm

Personally I think the radial side of the heart line is influenced by the movement capabilities, structure, and position preferences of the thumb and index finger in early development as well as throughout life.

The only movement that directly influences the ulnar side is the tension and movement of the little finger. There is no counter pulling or pushing from the rest of the ulna side until the wrist.

The Suwon crease is supposedly a crease that forms after birth and into very early childhood. This is a crease that appears to form radially and move toward the ulnar side to touch the heart line.

As Martijn pointed out somewhere recently, the heart line first appears radially. The hand as it develops does so in an uneven fashion so that certain parts of the hands are ahead in their development and some parts are trailing behind. This is normal. And in normally developing hands, the ulnar side, little finger and even the thumb on the radial side are last in completing development while the index to ring fingers are more advanced.

Visions for the starting point of the Heartline - Page 2 01496410 (Martijn shared this image in 2002)

Kiwihands shared the images recently of a woman whose heart line was very thin in appearance on the ulnar side of the hand. In the silhouette on the side you can see an indentation so the heart line does continue around the side.

Visions for the starting point of the Heartline - Page 2 Right110


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Post  Martijn (admin) Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am

Bump

___________________________________________
sunny

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Post  rajeevkrsharmaji Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:44 am

Good informative discussion
Thanks!

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