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Post  cshahar Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:48 pm

Ron, with all respect to your prodigious intellect, it doesn't matter what the dictionary says. You have to experience what wholeness (or oneness) is, to really know what it is about. In my opinion, part of wholeness includes your connection with the person whose palm you are reading. A good palmist tunes into a person and uses much more than the hand to do a reading. That connection is part of the holistic approach. The hand is just a trigger.

Thirty years ago I also had a problem with the word "spiritual". It seemed vague and abstract to me, and it annoyed me when people would use the word with impunity. My understanding has changed a lot since then. But only because I took it upon myself to investigate the concept further.



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Post  Ron Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:09 pm

cshahar wrote:your prodigious intellect

No where did I state this, just for record.

cshahar wrote:what the dictionary says.

It is not just what the dictionary states, but various great academics, including Jung, and various academic professors I have acquainted over the years. The Greeks founded the word Holism (or Holistic as we no today) and never did they ever associated any thing esoteric or spiritual with it.

In the previous forum I wrote an essay on the problem various Chirologists (and various other holistic practitioners ) have by the degrading of the terminology done by others.

cshahar wrote:In my opinion

It is your opinion, I respect it, and I will not argue.

cshahar wrote:palmist

I am not a palmist, I have never used the term palmistry ever. I have trained and studied in the field of Chirology by other Chirologists. Chirology is no longer an alternative term for palmistry to make it seem glossy and something it is not, Chirology is a field of study on its own, thanks to the various great individuals over recent years with their development and dedication.

In my opinion, everyone has their own opinion to what palmistry is, and if you think you are correct, I will not throw it in your face.


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Post  Lynn Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:31 am

copied some things over from another thread

Ron wrote:Holism (from ὅλος holos, a Greek word meaning all, whole, entire, total) is the idea that all the properties of a given system (physical, biological, chemical, social, economic, mental, linguistic, etc.) cannot be determined or explained by its component parts alone. Instead, the system as a whole determines in an important way how the parts behave.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary.

yes you are right Ron, - holos = whole, entire, total.
With regard to chirology... looking at 5-elements - all aspects of people - this "whole" surely has to include spirituality? I am not sure why you seem to be so opposed to the idea of including spirituality in human nature.
but according to wikipedia, "Holism" is a word apparently "introduced by the South African statesman Jan Smuts in his 1926 book,'Holism and Evolution'"

Lynn wrote:Holistic comes from the same root as the words 'whole' 'hale' and 'holy'.
Ron replied
- No it does not. The Greeks were the founder of the word Holistic. Holistic has always meant a whole identity or the whole of a function, e.g. the holistic workings of a community. No where did holistic ever become associated with anything spiritual till 30years ago these new age types started it use it, and tried to claim it. Now every time I mention holistic everyone thinks it's some new age hula hula nonsense.

Ron, I can only repeat - pls check out the etymology of the words 'whole' 'hale' and 'holy', also (somewhere down the line) "healthy" - I think you find they come from the same root as 'holistic' - Greek word "holos".

Ron wrote:
Lynn wrote:Ron, were you taught about spirituality within the 4 elements with regard to what religions / spiritual beliefs might suit each element?

No?! What spirituality with in the 4 elements? And how can you associated a religion or a spiritual belief with the element? With fire suiting islam and earth suiting buddism?

I was never taught any of the features representing by the Ether element, I was taught that Ether was a combination of all 4 elements. Now I have only completed half of the syllabus in South Africa, and I can tell you now the other half being taught in South Africa have nothing to to with religion or spiritual beliefs.

[quote ="Lynn"] - Yes, each element will be more drawn to certain types of religious / spiritual beliefs and practises. As you know with the holistic nature of 5 element hand analysis, we can relate the elements to all aspects of life, spirituality (which is not the same as religion, but religion is a form of spirituality) also comes into it.

PS Ron I forgot to say that although you got the gist of what I meant, your elemental assignations weren't correct eg air is more likely drawn to Buddhism, earth to the traditions/conventions they were brought up with in family/society or maybe drawn to more earth/nature based religions/spiritual beliefs such as paganism. Just because you haven't yet learnt about spirituality in 5 element hand analysis, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in this school of thought about hands.

One big thing you seem to forget in this discussion Ron, is that the whole basis of modern 5 element chirology was based on Terry Dukes book "Chinese Hand Analysis". Although just over 10 years ago Terry Dukes was proved to be in some ways fraudulent, please don't mistake the teacher with the teaching & don't forget that many of the 5 element chirology teachings were based on Buddhist philosophy...which is spiritual belief.

By the way Ron, re "Chirology is a field of study on its own". Going back to etymology, "chirology/cheirology" comes from Greek "xeri" & "logos", basically = 'study of the hand'. All the various schools are studying the hand in their various ways. 5- element chirology is just "one way of looking"!. Like you, I think it is "the most comprehensive way of looking" and I am very grateful that I found that school of teaching and had a fantastic tutor in Christopher Jones, but I also respect other schools & traditions especially in last 110 years or so, as that is where our basics originally came from.

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Post  Ron Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:09 am

Lynn wrote:based on Buddhist philosophy...which is spiritual belief.

I was joking!

Lynn wrote:"chirology/cheirology" comes from Greek "xeri" & "logos", basically = 'study of the hand'.

Of course I know this!

Lynn wrote:re "Chirology is a field of study on its own".
The following requirements have to be met if a subject is to qualify as an independent discipline:
  • It must have its own object of study,

  • It must be possible to identify a unique, clearly demarcated area of study,

  • It must have its own procedures or scientific methodology,

  • It must a sturdy theoretical foundation,

  • The knowledge it generates must be applicable to society,

  • It must be taught or practiced at an educational institution.

University of Harvard, Law faculty
Universitie van Suid-Afrika, Criminology faculty

As you can see, CHIROLOGY (especially Psychodiagnostic Chirology) isn't there yet, but on it's way.

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Post  cshahar Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:27 pm

The reading will always depend as much on the reader, as the person whose hand is being read. The discussion with Ron is a good example of this. He chooses to focus on different things than I do. So his readings will reflect his thinking. As will mine. In my opinion, a person who wants to transcend convention and disciplines should have good self-insight, and should do a lot of self-exploration. Otherwise too many filters will get in the way and he/she will miss the undercurrents of the person before them.



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