Re: tented arch like loops

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:35 pm

Patti wrote:Thanks Martijn for pointing that out. It makes the studies and comparisons between male and female even more intriquing and complex. Of course, since men tend to have courser ridges than woman on the spectrum of ridge size, density would make sense, too.

Exactly!

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:38 pm

Patti wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10423851

"In the past it has been assumed that the fingerprints of women tend to have "fine" epidermal ridge detail while men have "coarse" ridge detail. Past studies have examined this hypothesis but have not clearly demonstrated if observed differences are statistically significant."

"Application of Bayes' theorem suggests that a given fingerprint possessing a ridge density of 11 ridges/25 mm2 or less is most likely to be of male origin. Likewise a fingerprint having a ridge density of 12 ridges/25 mm2 or greater is most likely to be of female origin, regardless of race."

But, where does this leave us with the schizophrenics and the differences in the ridge counts?

Patti, first of all: again... you should not associate/mix 'ridge count' with 'ridge density'.

Second, Amrita Bagga's book Dermatoglyphics in Schizophrenics reports results for various samples of schizophrenia populations (in total 965 schizophrenia subjects, 210 family controls, 300 caste controls).

Nearly all aspects of the results pointed out that 'ridge count' does not vary significantly between schizophrenics and controls (1800 subjects). And in 3 out of the 4 studies schizonphrenia groups the sexe differences were not significant either.

CONCLUSION: The sexe-difference described in the study mentioned by Kiwihands... could very well be the result of the fact that it concerns a study focussed on a rather small population (N=76).

By the way, Kiwihands forgot to mention that the results for the women in the Bulgarian study were not significant at all, see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19957559

Anyway, I think the sexe difference reported in that study is not very large at all; and so far there appears to be no confirming evidence (based on larger populations).

So far I think we better not put too much meaning to those results (because of the lack of confirming evidence from larger populations).

**kiwihands** Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:14 am

Hi Lynn,

thanks for your response! Haha, a "bee in your bonnet"! Yes I understand what you meant, and I fully agree.
And you caught me again, in the act of writing without properly thinking or proofreading! When I said "single ridge loop" I meant "a loop with a ridge count of one" - two completely different things!
lol!

Great to hear that you would also modify the interpretation of a print in a reading, based on whether it includes a small element of a different category pattern. This is exactly what I was wondering, and I guess nomenclature is secondary as long as in the actual reading modifications can be made. In my own notes of practice readings, I think it will help me if I use mixed types where applicable, but I can see that more experienced chirologists may not need this crutch.

This forum is so inspiring! What a blessing to have access to the opinions and thoughts of all of you.

Cheers
Kiwi

**kiwihands** Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:35 am

Hi Patti,

Thanks for letting me know your birth card! I have to admit I was thinking you were a 2 (High Priestess) - I think I got this idea when I saw one of your comments on another thread, something along the lines of you loving synchronicity, but also from your intuitive approach and your humour, not taking things too seriously. (The latter probably has nothing to do with birth cards, but I've seen it in all High Priestesses I've come across.) The Hermit, however, makes even more sense in retrospect! Brilliant. I seem to have some natural affinity with Hermits - my brother and father are Hermits, as are most of my closest friends (3 of 4). But I know this is off topic, so will zip it!

I love PubMed! It's responsible for many times of me going "dang, and I had so much work to do!"
geek

**Lynn** Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:38 am

hi kiwi,

sorry, English phrase "bee in my bonnet" roughly translates as "something buzzing in my head that I get fanatical about" !

When I said "single ridge loop" I meant "a loop with a ridge count of one" - two completely different things!

I used to think they were the same thing, but now I have learnt more about cores, deltas, shoulder lines etc, I understand the difference!

Great to hear that you would also modify the interpretation of a print in a reading, based on whether it includes a small element of a different category pattern. This is exactly what I was wondering...

As Martijn said, there is a difference between classification & interpretation. There are strict rules for classification, and Martijn's right that if we get a correct classification we are on a better road to interpretation. Interpretation is more open to whatever system of handreading the reader learnt. And, as I previously said - when doing a face-to-face reading we don't have the luxury of time & facility to look at the print 10x zoom etc, so we have to do our 'best guess'.

This forum is so inspiring! What a blessing to have access to the opinions and thoughts of all of you.

Isn't the internet wonderful! cheers

When I first started (22 years ago), hand reading was a very lonely business. I had no PC / internet, and very few people around me were interested in the subject. I am very grateful that nowadays we are able to discuss with hand readers worldwide. There is always more to learn. I love it!!!

Patti Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:42 am

see a post was just posted as I started to post, so posting anyway without reading Very Happy

kiwihands wrote:Hi Lynn,

thanks for your response! Haha, a "bee in your bonnet"! Yes I understand what you meant, and I fully agree.
And you caught me again, in the act of writing without properly thinking or proofreading! When I said "single ridge loop" I meant "a loop with a ridge count of one" - two completely different things!

Great to hear that you would also modify the interpretation of a print in a reading, based on whether it includes a small element of a different category pattern. This is exactly what I was wondering, and I guess nomenclature is secondary as long as in the actual reading modifications can be made. In my own notes of practice readings, I think it will help me if I use mixed types where applicable, but I can see that more experienced chirologists may not need this crutch.

This forum is so inspiring! What a blessing to have access to the opinions and thoughts of all of you.

Cheers
Kiwi

Hi Kiwi!
Lynn and I had a similar conversation many years ago. I read hands using the concept of a spectrum. Something like how you see the head line slanting a lot versus a little. Everything in the palm can be placed in some kind of range from one territory, shape, size, texture etc, to the other polarity. Lynn then explained to me that she viewed the Elemental system the same way, in her way.

Elements can be a helpful addition. It's like a visual image for me. Fire with some water leads me to think of something hot and steamy. All fire would be like a desert, add some water and you have an oasis.

**Lynn** Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:43 am

Yeah I know the tarot is off topic here, but I am interested in what kiwihands and patti are talking about, so I will start a new thread for tarot. Please catch up with me there!

(edit) tarot topic started at https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t692-tarot-cards#6184

**kiwihands** Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:44 am

Hi Martijn,

thanks for your input clarifying my question on the schizophrenics study! Yes, I was also thinking that the number of subjects was too low to generalise. So much to learn!

Cheers
Kiwi

**Lynn** Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:49 am

Patti wrote:Hi Kiwi!
Lynn and I had a similar conversation many years ago. I read hands using the concept of a spectrum. Something like how you see the head line slanting a lot versus a little. Everything in the palm can be placed in some kind of range from one territory, shape, size, texture etc, to the other polarity. Lynn then explained to me that she viewed the Elemental system the same way, in her way.

Patti, I have no idea how you remember conversations we had years ago. I can't remember what I said yesterday! But I am glad that apparently we agreed Laughing

Yeah it is all a spectrum, and all based on looking in conjunction with all other aspects of the hand. Quite complex really!

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:15 am

kiwihands wrote:Hi Martijn,

thanks for your input clarifying my question on the schizophrenics study! Yes, I was also thinking that the number of subjects was too low to generalise. So much to learn!

Cheers
Kiwi

cpb Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:19 pm

tented arch like loops - Page 2 PC302374

Martijn,

A while ago a member Sajin Nadeem posted a comment about the possibility to see a loop and tented arch at the same time but could not forward a picture reflecting is thought process. Even if this impossible maybe the following photo could be useful : loop or tented arch?

Carl

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:08 pm

cpb wrote:

Martijn,

A while ago a member Sajin Nadeem posted a comment about the possibility to see a loop and tented arch at the same time but could not forward a picture reflecting is thought process. Even if this impossible maybe the following photo could be useful : loop or tented arch?

Carl

Hello cpb,

In my perception there is no doubt that according the FBI principles your example displays a 'loop' because it has a core, a triradius, and a ridge count: N=4 (see pictures below).

Technically, in a tented arch at least one of those three features is missing.

wave

tented arch like loops - Page 2 Cpb-zo10

cpb Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:20 pm

Martijn,

I did refer to figure 163, 164 and 166 before posting it there is a merging from the left side to the zone that you are referring to in addition there is an appendage impeding the recurve that's why I had to rule out the loop. I am still not 100% convince yet.

Thank you

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:11 pm

cpb wrote:Martijn,

I did refer to figure 163, 164 and 166 before posting it there is a merging from the left side to the zone that you are referring to in addition there is an appendage impeding the recurve that's why I had to rule out the loop. I am still not 100% convince yet.

Thank you

Sorry cpb, in the picture below I don't see any (clear) "appendage impeding the recurve"; I also can not confirm that FBI examples 163, 164 and 166 are similar to your example.

wave

cpb Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:31 pm

Martijn,

What tool do you use to add lines and dots on the photo, that might help me too. What would be great for me to better understand is to see the path that you have chosen for the type lines. I also don't understand the exact core location that you have selected and the recurve.

I have use shoe polish to get a better look at the picture. I am getting old and my eyes might not be reliable enough. Thank you

tented arch like loops - Page 2 PC312376

tented arch like loops - Page 2 PC312376

cpb Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:11 pm

Martijn,

This is what I see. I have use mac paint brush to edit the lines. Can you please locate the recurve and the core so that I can understand where is the loop. I really appreciate your input on that matter since I have been struggling for years on that case.

tented arch like loops - Page 2 PC3123762

tented arch like loops - Page 2 PC3123762

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:54 am

Sorry cpb, in my first assessment I mistakenly considered only the valleys between the ridges... therefore I have made a new assessment based on the ridges themselves (see left picture below, which e.g. explains why also the 2nd recurve is not spoiled).

A ridge count of 3 (instead of 4) is also clearly enough to conclude that all typical characteristics of a 'loop' are present.

Helpful?

PS. If you study example 169, 170 and 171 in the FBI book, you should be able to understand why there can actually be no doubt that your example definitely concerns a 'loop'... because the abutting ridge is gradual and does not connect with a looping ridge under a right angle (by the way, therefore your association regarding example 163, 164 and 166 is also inappropriate because in those 3 examples there is clearly a right angle involved with the abutting ridge, etc.)

tented arch like loops - Page 2 Cpb-2n10

tented arch like loops - Page 2 Cpb-2n10

cpb Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:49 am

Dear Martjin,

You have been extremely patient with me and I truly appreciate it. I always though that exactly above where you have located the core the first recurve and second recurve where melt together as well. I did not understand the importance of the 90 degrees rule either.

Thanks to your help, now I can put it behind me, I am left with only one tented arch on my left hand now Thanks!

Carl

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:21 am

cpb wrote:Dear Martjin,

You have been extremely patient with me and I truly appreciate it. I always though that exactly above where you have located the core the first recurve and second recurve where melt together as well. I did not understand the importance of the 90 degrees rule either.

Thanks to your help, now I can put it behind me, I am left with only one tented arch on my left hand now

Carl

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tented arch like loops