Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Patti Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:26 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
[color=darkred]Sorry for jumping in Patti...

But haven't you noticed by now?

Private includes 'family', but 'family' is not inner world... it's a part of the outer world.
Therefore we should better not continue using the idea that I earlier proposed to Lynn in the perspective of the dorsal hand vs the inner hand (I proposed: private = inner, but later I found that the picture below shows that this was actually a mistake)

I just caught that you had mentioned the dorsal side of the hand - which we haven't really discussed here at all. So I imagine you were 'joking' Laughing

But, if you have Moshe Zwang's book he has an illustration of the flow of energy from the front to back side of the hand and back around to the front again. Pages 600 and 601.

As to what I'm describing - maybe this is a better example:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 37 Hand_c10

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 37 Hand_c10

Patti Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:29 am

guypalm wrote:Hello Patti,

You wrote:

"Because of what has come out in this discussion I can no longer recommend Johnny's book "The Spellbinding Power of Palmistry" as a good book for learning how to read hands. I will however suggest it for those who are already experienced and established in the basics and won't be confused by the one-sided nature of some aspects. "

Great to know that another professional hand reader (besides Mark Seltman)
shares my view. I would state it this way:

Fincham's books are misleading for beginners & redundant for experienced readers. One may find a few stray useful nuggets but his books are largely old wine in a new bottle with different labels.

It's sad to come to this conclusion, too, because I recall from the Cafe days that Johnny is an excellent hand reader, but I don't recall him using ideas like World Stage, Peacock and Wall back then.

**Lynn** Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:52 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:yes the idea or thought is the inner air element, the communication via writing is the outer expression of it. not sure what point you're making Martijn?

[color=darkred]No Lynn... the outer expression of the words on paper can be recognized as a direct manifestation of the inner world..........

Martijn, I was agreeing with you. yet still I am told 'No' and given a lecture about the air element.
The communication of that idea into the world is ruled by air, writing it down is an earth form of air, expressing that inner idea to the outer world in a tangible, enduring form.

PS. You have nothing to worry about when you drop that small element in Chirstopher's guideline, and instead focuss a little bit more on Dukes & Fincham's guidelines. Because this concerns actually just a small step for you to understand everything that I have described.

I have no need to drop Christopher's guideline because THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT! You are focussing on individual element yin-yang but that quadrant guideline was also based on ordering the elements according to graduated materiality.

**Lynn** Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:I see no point in going over the same argument. You keep repeating the same things like a needle stuck in a record.
I've already explained the context in which Christopher used earth as the outer manifestation of our physical body. I've explained graduated materiality and yang expressions or manifestations of yin elements. Dukes used the word 'public' for air once and you have clung onto that like it is some law to be obeyed whilst ignoring, or stepping away from, other things that Dukes said several times.
I'm not going over it again.

btw Christopher never said that fire is more tangible than water.

Sorry Lynn, in your words I could describe your interpretation of Christopher's words as the needle stuck in a record with only a few words at all - because I think I have explained from many perspectives that Christopher's quadrantical guideline does not make sense in the perspective of the Yin-Yang philosophy.

And you always answered playing this 'mantra-like' record (even though I think you noticed that he did not repeat his quadrantial guideline in many of his other writings - not sure if you described that you have found it at more places in his writings anywhere)

My needle is stuck in the record that you keep asking to be replayed. You keep bringing up the same objections, so I give you the same answer. Yes I'm sick of hearing it too, so can we change the tunes please.

PS. Lynn, I know that you don't like my record... by I claim that it at least includes quite a few consistent (!) songs, written & composed by different sources(!) all refering to the fundamentals of the Yin & Yang philosophy.

But ignoring graduated materiality which is another elemental principle.

Meanwhile you kept your mind focussed on that 'three sentences'-song created by Jones... that does not vibrate well at all with the classic Yin-Yang philosophy

But does vibrate with graduated materiality, a way of combining and ordering elements, which also adheres to the yin yang principles of the individual elements.

If Christopher had made a mistake or misunderstood the elemental or chirological principles, don't you think that Dukes or any of the other mushindokai, who lived and breathed the elements as their way of life, would have pointed it out to him?

**Lynn** Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:39 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
I do not find the entirety of the human psyche in those boxes. In fact, the qualities of life expressed in the boxes are dysfunctional and negative. They speak of deficiencies.

Okay, I understand. Tomorrow I will try to find out who solid this model really is (but family = outer world, and ego structure = inner world perfectly makes sense to me).

PS. This is the source where I found the mode:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0740547298000555

Thanks for giving us the source Martijn, "Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment - Reflections on Volatile Substance Dependency Treatment:"
hence the negative and dysfunctional keywords in the boxes.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:11 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:yes the idea or thought is the inner air element, the communication via writing is the outer expression of it. not sure what point you're making Martijn?

[color=darkred]No Lynn... the outer expression of the words on paper can be recognized as a direct manifestation of the inner world..........

Martijn, I was agreeing with you. yet still I am told 'No' and given a lecture about the air element.
The communication of that idea into the world is ruled by air, writing it down is an earth form of air, expressing that inner idea to the outer world in a tangible, enduring form.

PS. You have nothing to worry about when you drop that small element in Chirstopher's guideline, and instead focuss a little bit more on Dukes & Fincham's guidelines. Because this concerns actually just a small step for you to understand everything that I have described.
I have no need to drop Christopher's guideline because THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT! You are focussing on individual element yin-yang but that quadrant guideline was also based on ordering the elements according to graduated materiality.

Lynn, I have not only focussing on the individual element Yin-Yang... I have described that on the basis of graduated materiality earth and water are the most tangible elements - which I have illustrated this with quite a few examples in different perspectives (the touchable aspect, the physical energetic aspect, and the spiritual aspect); and because of this FACT earth and water are the most 'inward directed' elements.

You have tried to defend Christopher's guideline only in terms of how you 'see' the world via you association that we can only see material and action; but that is not what the 'energy' spectrum of the elements is about.

I can explain this via Dukes work on page 27 & 29 where he is using the following principles (based on graduated materiality & symbols of experience) :

Earth = physical = evolution
Water = emotional = awareness
Fire = creative = change
Air = intellectual = discovery
Ether = spiritual = perfect integration

When we take a look at the world we see the existence of the physical world (earth)... which enters our consciousness (water): so seeing the world around us is actually a combination of earth & water!

(And yes, when we see things 'moving' that is the change associated with fire, and when we discover something... that's air)

But in you explanation of Christopher's guideline you never talked about how the world actually enters our consciousness! And this explains why never you talked about water regarding that experience: you only talked about earth and fire - remember, water is between those two elements!!!

So, water represent the inner experience (= awareness) of perceiving the outer world and this explains why Christopher's observation is incorrect... in every way!

wave

PS. My rainbow example is an example of a pure 'water' experience: the water in the air (rainbows only appear when it's raining!) makes the light distort in a way that makes us able to perceive it - this conscious inner perception is actually a water experience: we can also have this inner perception when we close our eyes!

PPS. I am sorry that during this discussion I had to give you so many times a 'no' - sometimes even when I could partly agreed with your observation or reasoning; regarding my 'no' in my previous post to you... I had to say no because even though I could agree that the words written on paper are an outer expression, they are also a direct expression of the inner world: in your description you only mentioned the fact that we can see the letters on paper as an outer expression, therefore I started my post with a 'no'.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:21 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
I do not find the entirety of the human psyche in those boxes. In fact, the qualities of life expressed in the boxes are dysfunctional and negative. They speak of deficiencies.

Okay, I understand. Tomorrow I will try to find out who solid this model really is (but family = outer world, and ego structure = inner world perfectly makes sense to me).

PS. This is the source where I found the mode:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0740547298000555

Thanks for giving us the source Martijn, "Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment - Reflections on Volatile Substance Dependency Treatment:"
hence the negative and dysfunctional keywords in the boxes.

Yes Lynn, though I think the context of the model is actually irrelevant.

I perceive the picture only as an opportunity for us to use it as a clear starting point regarding how to define 'inner world' & 'outer world', for example:

- 'inner world' = keywords: personality, intellectual, affect, temperamental, ego structure, control, self-esteem (in my view control + self-esteem relate directly to how I described the essential component regarding the theme 'self-assertion' = thumb!!!);
- 'outer world' = keywords: social, relationships, peer group, family, emotional expression, conflicts (in my view social, relationships, emotional expression + conflicts all relate to communication = pinky!!!).

I hope this makes sense?

(I will try to find out later today if there are any likewise materials somewhere available)

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 37 1-s2.0-S0740547298000555-gr1

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 37 1-s2.0-S0740547298000555-gr1

Patti Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:48 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

PS. My rainbow example is an example of a pure 'water' experience: the water in the air (rainbows only appear when it's raining!) makes the light distort in a way that makes us able to perceive it - this conscious inner perception is actually a water experience: we can also have this inner perception when we close our eyes!

A *rainbow* is absolutely not a pure water experience! It consists of Air, Water, & Fire and if there's pollution in the air, then we've got Earth there too.

The Sun is the Fire that beams on the Water droplets that hang in the Air splitting the light into a color spectrum.

Patti Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:57 pm

Lynn wrote:

If Christopher had made a mistake or misunderstood the elemental or chirological principles, don't you think that Dukes or any of the other mushindokai, who lived and breathed the elements as their way of life, would have pointed it out to him?

My first thought was regarding Munchkins from the Wizard of Oz, I hadn't heard of the mushindokai, so I googled it.

Those people are not very happy with Dukes either:

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=5257

Patti Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:10 pm

When we take a look at the world we see the existence of the physical world (earth)... which enters our consciousness (water): so seeing the world around us is actually a combination of earth & water!

(And yes, when we see things 'moving' that is the change associated with fire, and when we discover something... that's air)

But in you explanation of Christopher's guideline you never talked about how the world actually enters our consciousness! And this explains why never you talked about water regarding that experience: you only talked about earth and fire - remember, water is between those two elements!!!

So, water represent the inner experience (= awareness) of perceiving the outer world and this explains why Christopher's observation is incorrect... in every way!

Sight is Fire related as it involves light.
Discovery is still Fire, but turns to Air when thought about.
Air is something we breathe, it may have been identified, but it was never discovered (on this planet)
Water represents our emotional consciousness. We can become aware without emotions. Awareness is a mix of Fire and Air. Insight = Fire and Knowing = Air.
Earth can also be an inner experience in the sense of becoming 'grounded'.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:18 pm

Patti wrote:
When we take a look at the world we see the existence of the physical world (earth)... which enters our consciousness (water): so seeing the world around us is actually a combination of earth & water!

(And yes, when we see things 'moving' that is the change associated with fire, and when we discover something... that's air)

But in you explanation of Christopher's guideline you never talked about how the world actually enters our consciousness! And this explains why never you talked about water regarding that experience: you only talked about earth and fire - remember, water is between those two elements!!!

So, water represent the inner experience (= awareness) of perceiving the outer world and this explains why Christopher's observation is incorrect... in every way!

Sight is Fire related as it involves light.
Discovery is still Fire, but turns to Air when thought about.
Air is something we breathe, it may have been identified, but it was never discovered (on this planet)
Water represents our emotional consciousness. We can become aware without emotions. Awareness is a mix of Fire and Air. Insight = Fire and Knowing = Air.
Earth can also be an inner experience in the sense of becoming 'grounded'.

Patti, these are your associations... but your associations do not relate to how the elements are being described:

Discovery = air (for example: Jennifer describes 'Invention' as an air occupation, and none of her fire occupations relate to discovery - the archetype of Mercurius - which relates to air - also relates to discovery)

And awareness = water (because one can not discover (air) anything when there is no awareness!)

So, first there has to be 'awareness' (water) before one can discover (air) anything!

And actually... we can also apply this principle to Christopher's quadrantal guideline, he wrote:

"Earth and fire are the more outwardly directed elements. They are tangible and expressive; we see a person's body and their actions, but not their feelings and thoughts."

The words "we see" actually represent the element of 'awareness' (water), but the person's body and actions are only phenomena... where we can only speculate about the nature of these phenomena - just like we see in the example of the rainbow: it's apparent characteristics may very well create an illusion!

Only earth is tangible in the sense of 'touchable', but one can not touch 'action' nor can one touch 'fire'... but just like one can touch 'earth' one also can touch 'water': so, earth and water represent the most tangible elements!

That is why I perceive Christopher's guideline as a complete(!) misperception in the perspective of the elements as symbols of experience (Dukes describes the principles on page 28-33), because the order of the elements as symbols of experience is actually the following (quoted from Dukes):

Awarenss (water) => Discovery (Air) => Change (Fire) => Evolution (Earth) => Perfect Integration (= ether)

So, when we see a person's body and their action this the experience of awareness of this phenomenon proceeds in 2 stages:

1a) First the object (or phenomenon) itself is required be present (earth)
1b) only then the subject can become aware (water) of the object's presence!

2a) Second, the object is required to make actions (fire);
2b) only then the subject can discover (air) the nature of the object's action!

And therfore I think Christopher should have written something like this:

"Earth and water are the more inwardly directed elements. They are tangible and
not expressive; only after we become aware (subject-water) of a person's body (object-earth), then we can discover (subject-air) the nature of the person's actions (object-fire); just like we can only discover (subject-air) a person's feelings (object-water) and thoughts (object-air) when these are expressed via the actions (object-fire) of the person's body (object-earth). And when we express (subject-fire) our discovery to the outer world the expression becomes itself a new phenomenon (subject earth) inside the outer world... that can be perceived by others! Thus the earth and water quadrants are on the proximal palm (passive cognition) whilst fire and air are located on the distal palm (active cognition)."

PS. At an earlier stage I had already notified that one should also be aware that just like 'action' as a phenomeon can not be separated from the 'body', one should also be aware that the 'action' as a phenomena also can not be separated from 'emotion' and 'thought'... because the 'action' can actually represent the expression of water and/or air... and the 'action' can actually result in 'body' changes!!!!!

This is confirmed by the first three stages in Dukes' symbols of experience pattern:

Awarenss (water) => Discovery (Air) => Change (Fire) => Evolution (Earth) => Perfect Integration (= ether)

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:16 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

PS. My rainbow example is an example of a pure 'water' experience: the water in the air (rainbows only appear when it's raining!) makes the light distort in a way that makes us able to perceive it - this conscious inner perception is actually a water experience: we can also have this inner perception when we close our eyes!

A *rainbow* is absolutely not a pure water experience! It consists of Air, Water, & Fire and if there's pollution in the air, then we've got Earth there too.

The Sun is the Fire that beams on the Water droplets that hang in the Air splitting the light into a color spectrum.

Okay Patti, you score a point here: yes, light is involved in creating a rainbow as well... which indeed relates to fire; so from a physical point of view it's a mix for water and fire (though regarding our experience of a rainbow, I think it only relates to water - we can perceive it as a phenomenon but we can not approach a rainbow because it has not location, it's an optical-meteorological phenomenon caused by reflection of light in water droplets).

(Though your association regarding pollution is irrelevant, because pollution is not required to create a rainbow; and air is also not actively involved in creating a rainbow either)

Thanks for the correction!

Thanks!

Patti Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:40 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
When we take a look at the world we see the existence of the physical world (earth)... which enters our consciousness (water): so seeing the world around us is actually a combination of earth & water!

(And yes, when we see things 'moving' that is the change associated with fire, and when we discover something... that's air)

But in you explanation of Christopher's guideline you never talked about how the world actually enters our consciousness! And this explains why never you talked about water regarding that experience: you only talked about earth and fire - remember, water is between those two elements!!!

So, water represent the inner experience (= awareness) of perceiving the outer world and this explains why Christopher's observation is incorrect... in every way!

Sight is Fire related as it involves light.
Discovery is still Fire, but turns to Air when thought about.
Air is something we breathe, it may have been identified, but it was never discovered (on this planet)
Water represents our emotional consciousness. We can become aware without emotions. Awareness is a mix of Fire and Air. Insight = Fire and Knowing = Air.
Earth can also be an inner experience in the sense of becoming 'grounded'.

Patti, these are your associations... but your associations do not relate to how the elements are being described:

Discovery = air (for example: Jennifer describes 'Invention' as an air occupation, and none of her fire occupations relate to discovery - the archetype of Mercurius - which relates to air - also relates to discovery)

And awareness = water (because one can not discover (air) anything when there is no awareness!)

So, first there has to be 'awareness' (water) before one can discover (air) anything!

And actually... we can also apply this principle to Christopher's quadrantal guideline, he wrote:

"Earth and fire are the more outwardly directed elements. They are tangible and expressive; we see a person's body and their actions, but not their feelings and thoughts."

The words "we see" actually represent the element of 'awareness' (water), but the person's body and actions are only phenomena... where we can only speculate about the nature of these phenomena - just like we see in the example of the rainbow: it's apparent characteristics may very well create an illusion!

Only earth is tangible in the sense of 'touchable', but one can not touch 'action' nor can one touch 'fire'... but just like one can touch 'earth' one also can touch 'water': so, earth and water represent the most tangible elements!

That is why I perceive Christopher's guideline as a complete(!) misperception in the perspective of the elements as symbols of experience (Dukes describes the principles on page 28-33), because the order of the elements as symbols of experience is actually the following (quoted from Dukes):

Awarenss (water) => Discovery (Air) => Change (Fire) => Evolution (Earth) => Perfect Integration (= ether)

So, when we see a person's body and their action this the experience of awareness of this phenomenon proceeds in 2 stages:

1a) First the object (or phenomenon) itself is required be present (earth)
1b) only then the subject can become aware (water) of the object's presence!

2a) Second, the object is required to make actions (fire);
2b) only then the subject can discover (air) the nature of the object's action!

And therfore I think Christopher should have written something like this:

"Earth and water are the more inwardly directed elements. They are tangible and
not expressive; only after we become aware (subject-water) of a person's body (object-earth), then we can discover (subject-air) the nature of the person's actions (object-fire); just like we can only discover (subject-air) a person's feelings (object-water) and thoughts (object-air) when these are expressed via the actions (object-fire) of the person's body (object-earth). And when we express (subject-fire) our discovery to the outer world the expression becomes itself a new phenomenon (subject earth) inside the outer world... that can be perceived by others! Thus the earth and water quadrants are on the proximal palm (passive cognition) whilst fire and air are located on the distal palm (active cognition)."

PS. At an earlier stage I had already notified that one should also be aware that just like 'action' as a phenomeon can not be separated from the 'body', one should also be aware that the 'action' as a phenomena also can not be separated from 'emotion' and 'thought'... because the 'action' can actually represent the expression of water and/or air... and the 'action' can actually result in 'body' changes!!!!!

This is confirmed by the first three stages in Dukes' symbols of experience pattern:

Awarenss (water) => Discovery (Air) => Change (Fire) => Evolution (Earth) => Perfect Integration (= ether)

My associations, your associations, Christopher's associations.... whatever....

That's the nature of elements because they can not act alone - so one person may see a rainbow as fire acting like water or another may see it as water behaving like fire. Water acts like Earth when its ice. Earth acts like Water when its mud and a landslide. etc.

It's all about perspective. I think this is why Christopher said most of the beginner's classes were based on learning the 5E system of elements. You can't be wrong if it your own system.

This trying to match definitions of elements from various resources will not find agreement because there are so many possibilities and combinations. Another reason, I think it's not really a good idea to place so much emphasis on the elements in hand reading. Make note of an essence and then move on to more important aspects, one shouldn't try to apply repeatedly 4 elements to everything as nothing consists or acts from a solitary element.

The idea that there are endless combinations of elements are true. But I know that no one using the element systems are adding up how many E, A, F, & W and comparing the subtle differences between the scores of one aspect/feature in one person's hands to another person's hands. The mind is capable of visualizing a spectrum in 4 directions and moving mentally toward the areas that are dominant. The mind is not capable of memorizing the differences between such combinations of portions E - 12, A- 50, F -25, W - 90 as compared to E - 22, A-49, Fire-20, W-84 and E-88, A-47, F-10, W-60 etc. etc. etc. So why bother in the first place, just make note of dominant, weak and average energies would work (and in reality is what is taking place). The elements are only symbols representing assigned energies that are superimposed upon the hand.

**Lynn** Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:22 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:[color=darkred]Lynn, I have not only focussing on the individual element Yin-Yang... I have described that on the basis of graduated materiality earth and water are the most tangible elements

yes sorry you have talked about graduated materiality in basic elemental principles, but not really spoken much about how to apply it in human or handreading terms.

Martijn (admin) wrote:You have tried to defend Christopher's guideline only in terms of how you 'see' the world via you association that we can only see material and action; but that is not what the 'energy' spectrum of the elements is about.

I can explain this via Dukes work on page 27 & 29 where he is using the following principles (based on graduated materiality & symbols of experience) :.....

Have you forgotten that it was Dukes who placed the quadrants on the palm with regard to the manner & explanation described by Christopher? Well unfortunately it's too late for you to point out to Dukes how you see the mistakes and contradictions in his work.

**Lynn** Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:37 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

PS. My rainbow example is an example of a pure 'water' experience: the water in the air (rainbows only appear when it's raining!) makes the light distort in a way that makes us able to perceive it - this conscious inner perception is actually a water experience: we can also have this inner perception when we close our eyes!

A *rainbow* is absolutely not a pure water experience! It consists of Air, Water, & Fire and if there's pollution in the air, then we've got Earth there too.

The Sun is the Fire that beams on the Water droplets that hang in the Air splitting the light into a color spectrum.

thanks Patti I was going to point out the same thing i.e. it consists of fire & air too.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:45 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
[color=darkred]Sorry for jumping in Patti...

But haven't you noticed by now?

Private includes 'family', but 'family' is not inner world... it's a part of the outer world.
Therefore we should better not continue using the idea that I earlier proposed to Lynn in the perspective of the dorsal hand vs the inner hand (I proposed: private = inner, but later I found that the picture below shows that this was actually a mistake)

I just caught that you had mentioned the dorsal side of the hand - which we haven't really discussed here at all. So I imagine you were 'joking'

...

Patt, I was not joking at all; I have discussed with Lynn the aspect of the dorsal side of the inside this topic - in the perspective of Dukes work page 80. But it was only mentioned in a couple of posts.

Patti Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:10 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
[color=darkred]Sorry for jumping in Patti...

But haven't you noticed by now?

Private includes 'family', but 'family' is not inner world... it's a part of the outer world.
Therefore we should better not continue using the idea that I earlier proposed to Lynn in the perspective of the dorsal hand vs the inner hand (I proposed: private = inner, but later I found that the picture below shows that this was actually a mistake)

I just caught that you had mentioned the dorsal side of the hand - which we haven't really discussed here at all. So I imagine you were 'joking'

...

Patt, I was not joking at all; I have discussed with Lynn the aspect of the dorsal side of the inside this topic - in the perspective of Dukes work page 80. But it was only mentioned in a couple of posts.

I had a good laugh anyway as it appeared you were playing with the idea that since my graphic would work for you if I would only just switch the inner side with the outer side. Smile

Therefore it'd work from your viewpoint if we were looking at the graphic from the back side of the hand.
lol!

But, I have seriously looked at the possibility of switching sides and know that in practice I'd be reading the opposite of what I normally read.

You see, I don't see the little finger or ring finger and their mounts below, as more public than private.

The ring finger is something we look at in people that have been in the limelight in some way. But there are many, many more people with similar features who never seek the limelight. The ones we see are because they are out there to be seen. I have learned that no matter how gifted a person may be and how charming a personality they may have, they may prefer the company of their family and friends and all their artistic work waits to be discovered, or not, as it was hidden away in the closet of their hobby room. (introverts) Not everyone has an interest in being a Peacock. Beyond that, peacocks are known for their pride - e.g. 'proud as a peacock'. And they 'strut' their stuff. (extraversion) The ring finger responds to environmental conditions, particularly a person's home or work space, depending on the hand. The middle finger relates to pride and the attitude behind strutting.

Johnny originally called his Passion line the Pervy line. Pervy doesn't sound like something one would be proud as a peacock about.

The little finger is where we keep our secrets, what we are ready and willing to lie about. It does relate to how we communicate and to our intimate relationships as well as ordinary bonds and friendships. But it goes deeper than that into the darker recesses of our mind and our private lives. There is where denial and deception reside. This is where "we don't hang our dirty linen in public' is found. The communication that comes from here, also comes from the area below - an even deeper well of the inner self. This can be the void/abyss to some, to others it's the source of eternal light.

The Mercury/Health line rises from the 'physical' area, usually the life line or from inside the life line and connects with the Mercury mount adding instinct and gut feelings. When it curves to rise from within the lower ulnar section it typically adds intuition, psychic abilities and, or visions.

The fingers being in the active zone of the hand allow us to explore and take in the world and then to respond to it. The 'activeness' of the ulnar side of the hands does not equate to exposed and public. What we read there is how a person is capable of expressing themselves and interacting with their environment. How much of themselves they are willing to expose.

The thumb side is easier for one to try to label as inner because that side is more exposed more naturally public (a thumb enclosed in the fingers relates to insecurity and hiding one self). It's difficult sometimes to see if the inner self is putting itself out there (like a peacock or a donkey Wink

or like normal) or if the outer world is all tumbling down on a person's head.

Many people want to blame the outer world for their problems and issues - this we can read in the attitude on radial side of the hand. But, on the ulnar side you can see they create their own problems from the subconscious.

I could write pages on the qualities of the ulnar side of the hand that illustrates that it represents the most private side of ourselves.

For these reasons, and more, there is no way I can view the ulnar side of the hand as the outer side or relating to the public as main Keywords.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:14 am

Lynn wrote:...
Martijn (admin) wrote:You have tried to defend Christopher's guideline only in terms of how you 'see' the world via you association that we can only see material and action; but that is not what the 'energy' spectrum of the elements is about.

I can explain this via Dukes work on page 27 & 29 where he is using the following principles (based on graduated materiality & symbols of experience) :.....

Have you forgotten that it was Dukes who placed the quadrants on the palm with regard to the manner & explanation described by Christopher? Well unfortunately it's too late for you to point out to Dukes how you see the mistakes and contradictions in his work.

Lynn, I remember that you reported that Dukes approach regarding the quadrants appears to have it's origins in Gettings work - so I am not sure why you suggest that Dukes has something to explain.

In my view Christopher's mistake can be recognized most easily regarding his use of the word-combination: 'tangible' & 'expressive'; because in the perspective of the graduated materiality this appears to be an impossible combination.

For, in the philosophy of the graduated materiality the most structured elements (earth + water) are the ones that are most tangible, and the least structured elements (fire + air) are the ones that are most expressive.

Tangible is not dynamic... and therefore tangible can not be associated with 'expressive', nor 'outwardly directed'.

Because if earth would have become 'tangible' AND 'expressive' AND 'outward directed'... then it could be described as Yang; because in Christopher's list of key-words for the active hand (yang) we find the following: manifest, outer, visible, superstructure, expressed patterns, etc.

So, I think this shows that Christopher has made associations that are misleading - in the sense that his guideline is not a reflection of the principle of the graduated materiality.

PS. Maybe I misunderstood you comment???

**Lynn** Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:20 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Patt, I was not joking at all; I have discussed with Lynn the aspect of the dorsal side of the inside this topic - in the perspective of Dukes work page 80. But it was only mentioned in a couple of posts.

Yeah we briefly talked about :
back of hand = "more public" (it is what we generally see most when we see people walking down the street etc)
palmar side = "more private"

**Lynn** Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:20 am

Patti wrote:You see, I don't see the little finger or ring finger and their mounts below, as more public than private.

The ring finger is something we look at in people that have been in the limelight in some way. But there are many, many more people with similar features who never seek the limelight. The ones we see are because they are out there to be seen. I have learned that no matter how gifted a person may be and how charming a personality they may have, they may prefer the company of their family and friends and all their artistic work waits to be discovered, or not, as it was hidden away in the closet of their hobby room. (introverts) Not everyone has an interest in being a Peacock. Beyond that, peacocks are known for their pride - e.g. 'proud as a peacock'. And they 'strut' their stuff. (extraversion) The ring finger responds to environmental conditions, particularly a person's home or work space, depending on the hand. The middle finger relates to pride and the attitude behind strutting.

Johnny originally called his Passion line the Pervy line. Pervy doesn't sound like something one would be proud as a peacock about.

The little finger is where we keep our secrets, what we are ready and willing to lie about. It does relate to how we communicate and to our intimate relationships as well as ordinary bonds and friendships. But it goes deeper than that into the darker recesses of our mind and our private lives. There is where denial and deception reside. This is where "we don't hang our dirty linen in public' is found. The communication that comes from here, also comes from the area below - an even deeper well of the inner self. This can be the void/abyss to some, to others it's the source of eternal light.

The Mercury/Health line rises from the 'physical' area, usually the life line or from inside the life line and connects with the Mercury mount adding instinct and gut feelings. When it curves to rise from within the lower ulnar section it typically adds intuition, psychic abilities and, or visions.

The fingers being in the active zone of the hand allow us to explore and take in the world and then to respond to it. The 'activeness' of the ulnar side of the hands does not equate to exposed and public. What we read there is how a person is capable of expressing themselves and interacting with their environment. How much of themselves they are willing to expose.

The thumb side is easier for one to try to label as inner because that side is more exposed more naturally public (a thumb enclosed in the fingers relates to insecurity and hiding one self). It's difficult sometimes to see if the inner self is putting itself out there (like a peacock or a donkey or like normal) or if the outer world is all tumbling down on a person's head.

Many people want to blame the outer world for their problems and issues - this we can read in the attitude on radial side of the hand. But, on the ulnar side you can see they create their own problems from the subconscious.

I could write pages on the qualities of the ulnar side of the hand that illustrate that it represents the most private side of ourselves.

For these reasons, and more, there is no way I can view the ulnar side of the hand as the outer side or relating to the public as main Keywords.

I couldn't have said it better myself, thanks Patti!

Patti Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:25 am

This is tangible and expressive:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 37 Th?id=H.4953614315293259&pid=15

Patti Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:26 am

Lynn wrote:

I couldn't have said it better myself, thanks Patti!

**Lynn** Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:30 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:...
Martijn (admin) wrote:You have tried to defend Christopher's guideline only in terms of how you 'see' the world via you association that we can only see material and action; but that is not what the 'energy' spectrum of the elements is about.

I can explain this via Dukes work on page 27 & 29 where he is using the following principles (based on graduated materiality & symbols of experience) :.....

Have you forgotten that it was Dukes who placed the quadrants on the palm with regard to the manner & explanation described by Christopher? Well unfortunately it's too late for you to point out to Dukes how you see the mistakes and contradictions in his work.

Lynn, I remember that you reported that Dukes approach regarding the quadrants appears to have it's origins in Gettings work - so I am not sure why you suggest that Dukes has something to explain.

In my view Christopher's mistake can be recognized most easily regarding his use of the word-combination: 'tangible' & 'expressive'; because in the perspective of the graduated materiality this appears to be an impossible combination.

For, in the philosophy of the graduated materiality the most structured elements (earth + water) are the ones that are most tangible, and the least structured elements (fire + air) are the ones that are most expressive.

Tangible is not dynamic... and therefore tangible can not be associated with 'expressive', nor 'outwardly directed'.

Because if earth would have become 'tangible' AND 'expressive' AND 'outward directed'... then it could be described as Yang; because in Christopher's list of key-words for the active hand (yang) we find the following: manifest, outer, visible, superstructure, expressed patterns, etc.

So, I think this shows that Christopher has made associations that are misleading - in the sense that his guideline is not a reflection of the principle of the graduated materiality.

PS. Maybe I misunderstood you comment???

Yes I think you have misunderstood (or not understood fully) this aspect all the way thru this discussion. I'm not going to repeat myself. I'm taking the needle off the record. I'm done with that part of the discussion.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:05 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:...
Martijn (admin) wrote:You have tried to defend Christopher's guideline only in terms of how you 'see' the world via you association that we can only see material and action; but that is not what the 'energy' spectrum of the elements is about.

I can explain this via Dukes work on page 27 & 29 where he is using the following principles (based on graduated materiality & symbols of experience) :.....

Have you forgotten that it was Dukes who placed the quadrants on the palm with regard to the manner & explanation described by Christopher? Well unfortunately it's too late for you to point out to Dukes how you see the mistakes and contradictions in his work.

Lynn, I remember that you reported that Dukes approach regarding the quadrants appears to have it's origins in Gettings work - so I am not sure why you suggest that Dukes has something to explain.

In my view Christopher's mistake can be recognized most easily regarding his use of the word-combination: 'tangible' & 'expressive'; because in the perspective of the graduated materiality this appears to be an impossible combination.

For, in the philosophy of the graduated materiality the most structured elements (earth + water) are the ones that are most tangible, and the least structured elements (fire + air) are the ones that are most expressive.

Tangible is not dynamic... and therefore tangible can not be associated with 'expressive', nor 'outwardly directed'.

Because if earth would have become 'tangible' AND 'expressive' AND 'outward directed'... then it could be described as Yang; because in Christopher's list of key-words for the active hand (yang) we find the following: manifest, outer, visible, superstructure, expressed patterns, etc.

So, I think this shows that Christopher has made associations that are misleading - in the sense that his guideline is not a reflection of the principle of the graduated materiality.

PS. Maybe I misunderstood you comment???

Yes I think you have misunderstood (or not understood fully) this aspect all the way thru this discussion. I'm not going to repeat myself. I'm taking the needle off the record. I'm done with that part of the discussion.

Lynn, I have no idea what you are talking about that I have 'forgotten'.

Fact is that Christopher has not adopted Dukes perspective fully... because only Dukes talks about public and private, and only Dukes follows the Yin-Yang principles (just like Fincham does).

PS. Don't worry, I understand that you are done with that part of the discussion - but it would be helpful if you would end it by pointing out what you have in mind regarding what I have 'forgotten' - according your perception. So far I don't think that I have anything forgotten like you suggested.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:07 am

I have searched for better materials than the picture above, but so far I haven't anything worthed to be presented here.

But I can report the following:

1 - In a non-psychoanalytic perspective the Ego & I are sometimes associated to represent the key-elements of the inner world (emotions, feelings & thoughts are the other elements); family, job & social structures are always recognized as being a part of the outer world.

2 - However, in Jung's psychoanalytic perspective the Ego represents our personal identity - and the Ego moves between the inner and outer world. In Jung's perspective the Ego finds comfort and support via the family & occupation in the outer world. And the Persona also has a likewise protective role - functioning as a social mask (a compromise) between Ego & outer world. But in Jung's perspective the unconscious is described as the inner world, so this implicates that one should always be very aware of the perspective that one considers (because in non-psychoanalytic perspective the Ego can be linked with the psychological inner world itself, while in a psychoanalytic context the Ego is usually described to be manouvring between the unconscious inner world and the conscious outer world)

The picture below presents sort of an attempt to describe how the major principles that we have discussed could be combined in one picture (special attention for the quadrantial approach regarding the two polarities 'inner vs. outer' and 'private vs. public'.. the picture presents a mix that we have not discussed but it's sort of my propose for an acceptable compromis regarding the principles that we have discussed from many perspectives).

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 37 Hand-412

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 37 Hand-412

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