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Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
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Modern Hand Reading Forum - Discover the language of your hands: palm reading & palmistry forum! :: III - MODERN HAND READING - Various systems for reading hands! :: IIIa - Modern Palmistry: general topics, questions :: IIIh - Fingernails
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Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Has anyone come across any information that relates the width of a fingernail to the type of fingerprint pattern? Or, the width of a fingernail to the distal phalangeal bone?
Studies by Babler show that it isn't the height of the volar pad that influences the pattern type but the width of the bone developing underneath the volar pad.
Since the tension from the developing nail bed influences dermatoglyphic development along with the width of the distal bone, I'm wondering if the width of the nail itself is influenced by the width of the bone it is covering. If so, it might tie in the nail shape with the fingerprint pattern.
Studies by Babler show that it isn't the height of the volar pad that influences the pattern type but the width of the bone developing underneath the volar pad.
Since the tension from the developing nail bed influences dermatoglyphic development along with the width of the distal bone, I'm wondering if the width of the nail itself is influenced by the width of the bone it is covering. If so, it might tie in the nail shape with the fingerprint pattern.
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Answering my own question!
Wikipedia says:
"The underlying bone is a virtual mould of the overlying horny structure and therefore has the same shape as the claw or nail"
This should relate the fingernail shape to the fingerprint!

"The underlying bone is a virtual mould of the overlying horny structure and therefore has the same shape as the claw or nail"
This should relate the fingernail shape to the fingerprint!
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Hi Patti,
I am wondering... since fingerprint type is not mentioned in the Wikipedia article at all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_(anatomy)#Non-human_anatomy), ... and nail width is not mentioned in Babler's theory... what made you jump into the conclusion that fingernail shape and fingerprint types are related?
I also wonder...
- Can fingernail-width be considered as constant measure?
- Fingerprint type varies significantly among males and females; but I am not sure that likewise sexe-depended characteristics have been observed for fingernails (though I would expect that the average female nail shape will be slightly narrow and longer compared to the average male nail shape... but I am not sure that I have ever seen any confirmed evidence for this).
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
It's more an association than a conclusion.
Babler's earlier theory was about relating volar pad height and size to fingerprint pattern. His later research showed the pattern was directly related to bone width. Narrow bones were found to be related to whorl patterns.
"Results of this study indicated that digital pattern type (arch, loop or whorl) is associated with the shape of the volar pad at the time of ridge formation. However, this association is related only to pad width. Pattern type is also associated with shape of the bony distal phalanx. These data underscore the importance of understanding the developmental basis of dermatoglyphic variation."
Articles by William Babler
There are many factors involved in the development of a particular pattern which includes the nervous system, the tension of the nail bed (distally and laterally), bony structure, the timing of the volar pads, and the shape or inclinations of the volar pad, to name just a few.
If Babler's results show that a narrow bone is involved in a fingerprint being a whorl and if fingernail shape is directly related to the bone shape, it would be reasonable to question to what degree the nail and fingerprint are associated. Particularly since the tension of the nail bed influences the earliest formation of ridges on the distal phalange. The shape of this nail bed would have an influence on the tension laterally and distally. The location of the nail on the fingertip would also be something to consider. My own nails begin just below the core of the pattern. My nails are naturally long and I have whorls. It's something to check out on other people's fingertips.
Babler's earlier theory was about relating volar pad height and size to fingerprint pattern. His later research showed the pattern was directly related to bone width. Narrow bones were found to be related to whorl patterns.
"Results of this study indicated that digital pattern type (arch, loop or whorl) is associated with the shape of the volar pad at the time of ridge formation. However, this association is related only to pad width. Pattern type is also associated with shape of the bony distal phalanx. These data underscore the importance of understanding the developmental basis of dermatoglyphic variation."
Articles by William Babler
There are many factors involved in the development of a particular pattern which includes the nervous system, the tension of the nail bed (distally and laterally), bony structure, the timing of the volar pads, and the shape or inclinations of the volar pad, to name just a few.
If Babler's results show that a narrow bone is involved in a fingerprint being a whorl and if fingernail shape is directly related to the bone shape, it would be reasonable to question to what degree the nail and fingerprint are associated. Particularly since the tension of the nail bed influences the earliest formation of ridges on the distal phalange. The shape of this nail bed would have an influence on the tension laterally and distally. The location of the nail on the fingertip would also be something to consider. My own nails begin just below the core of the pattern. My nails are naturally long and I have whorls. It's something to check out on other people's fingertips.
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
"Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Digital Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology"
"While shape of the volar pad may not be the sole determinant of ridge configuration, it apparently is critical at the time of ridge formation in influencing the course of the ridges. The delineation of factors which may influence pad shape is the logical next step."
"While shape of the volar pad may not be the sole determinant of ridge configuration, it apparently is critical at the time of ridge formation in influencing the course of the ridges. The delineation of factors which may influence pad shape is the logical next step."
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Patti wrote:It's more an association than a conclusion.
Babler's earlier theory was about relating volar pad height and size to fingerprint pattern. His later research showed the pattern was directly related to bone width. Narrow bones were found to be related to whorl patterns.
"Results of this study indicated that digital pattern type (arch, loop or whorl) is associated with the shape of the volar pad at the time of ridge formation. However, this association is related only to pad width. Pattern type is also associated with shape of the bony distal phalanx. These data underscore the importance of understanding the developmental basis of dermatoglyphic variation."
Articles by William Babler
...
Patti, okay... I can understand your assocation.
But can you point out for me: where exactly did you find that Babler suggests that fingerprint type relates to bone width?
NOTICE: I am asking because in the following article Babler presents results which describe that there is no correlation between pattern type and 'apical taft' width (= distal end of the distal phalange) - http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf
Quoted from page 300:
"Using analysis of covariance procedures to adjust for increasing size due to age, no signficant differences between pattern types was found for either length of the distal phalanx or width of the tuft."
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf
"Recently, Babler has examined the developmental relationships between epidermal ridges and the developing bone skeleton of the hand. He has shown a significant prenatal relationship between epidermal ridge dimension and bone dimension of the hand. Bone dimensions, both in length of the cartilaginous model and bone collar, of distal phalanges and metacarpals were significantly correlated to digital epidermal ridge dimensions."
There is another quote that directly states that a narrow distal fingertip was related to a whorl pattern. I think it might be in one of Plato's books and I'm not near my books right now.
"Recently, Babler has examined the developmental relationships between epidermal ridges and the developing bone skeleton of the hand. He has shown a significant prenatal relationship between epidermal ridge dimension and bone dimension of the hand. Bone dimensions, both in length of the cartilaginous model and bone collar, of distal phalanges and metacarpals were significantly correlated to digital epidermal ridge dimensions."
There is another quote that directly states that a narrow distal fingertip was related to a whorl pattern. I think it might be in one of Plato's books and I'm not near my books right now.
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Martijn (admin) wrote:Patti wrote:It's more an association than a conclusion.
Babler's earlier theory was about relating volar pad height and size to fingerprint pattern. His later research showed the pattern was directly related to bone width. Narrow bones were found to be related to whorl patterns.
"Results of this study indicated that digital pattern type (arch, loop or whorl) is associated with the shape of the volar pad at the time of ridge formation. However, this association is related only to pad width. Pattern type is also associated with shape of the bony distal phalanx. These data underscore the importance of understanding the developmental basis of dermatoglyphic variation."
Articles by William Babler
...
Patti, okay... I can understand your assocation.
But can you point out for me: where exactly did you find that Babler suggests that fingerprint type relates to bone width?
NOTICE: I am asking because in the following article Babler presents results which describe that there is no correlation between pattern type and 'apical taft' width (= distal end of the distal phalange) - http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf
Quoted from page 300:
"Using analysis of covariance procedures to adjust for increasing size due to age, no signficant differences between pattern types was found for either length of the distal phalanx or width of the tuft."
Read page 66 of this report:
http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf
"These data suggest that arch patterns are associated with an increased width of the tuft relative to the length of the bone collar of the distal phalanx while narrow tuft width appears to be associated with loop configurations."
I can see there are contradictions among his reports.
But this report does continue to discuss various other factors such as bone ossification and the speed, order and timing involved in bone development as factors involved in pattern formation.
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Patti wrote:http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf
"Recently, Babler has examined the developmental relationships between epidermal ridges and the developing bone skeleton of the hand. He has shown a significant prenatal relationship between epidermal ridge dimension and bone dimension of the hand. Bone dimensions, both in length of the cartilaginous model and bone collar, of distal phalanges and metacarpals were significantly correlated to digital epidermal ridge dimensions."
There is another quote that directly states that a narrow distal fingertip was related to a whorl pattern. I think it might be in one of Plato's books and I'm not near my books right now.
Thanks Patti!
But this quote does not confirm your conclusion (that Babler described a relationship between 'fingerprint pattern type' and bone with). For, your quote refers to the article that I mentioned in my former post.
In that article 'epidermal ridge dimension' is not associated with fingerprint pattern type... instead, those words only refer to three specific aspects of the indidual ridges: 1 - ridge width; 2 - primary ridge depth; 3 - interridge width.
(see page 299: http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf )
So, this confirms what I already pointed out in my former post: Babler's work does not describe a relationship between bone width & fingerprint type.
Finally, regarding your reference to Plato's work... I am looking forward to hear more about the details!
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Thanks Martijn for your input.
I was referring to a report by Babler that would have been in one of Chris Plato's books. I'll look when I get a chance.
I was referring to a report by Babler that would have been in one of Chris Plato's books. I'll look when I get a chance.
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Hopefully the point of this discussion isn't lost arguing details of various Babler studies about bone ossification and bone width. It's obvious his viewpoints changed with each study, but ended with the idea that there is more involved in pattern formation than the epidermis.
There is still the fact that the tension from the nail bed and the distal interphalangeal crease pull the ridges into rows that are perpendicular to the direction of tension. (any disagreement on that aspect?)
There is still the fact that the tension from the nail bed and the distal interphalangeal crease pull the ridges into rows that are perpendicular to the direction of tension. (any disagreement on that aspect?)
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
In "Dermatoglyphics, Science in Transition" (1991) page 105-106
"Recently, Babler has examined the developmental relationships between epidermal ridges and the developing bone skeleton of the hand."
"Generally, we can conclude that bone development does play a role in epidermal ridge configuration."
"Recently, Babler has examined the developmental relationships between epidermal ridges and the developing bone skeleton of the hand."
"Generally, we can conclude that bone development does play a role in epidermal ridge configuration."
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf
The abstract at the beginning of the pdf (above link) states that the results showed that patterns were related to pad width and not length. There is another report that states that pad width was related to bone width. I'm looking for that source.
If, pad width is related to bone width and bone width is related to nail width, then the width of the nail may have a relationship with the pattern, particularly if pattern is related to pad width.
The abstract at the beginning of the pdf (above link) states that the results showed that patterns were related to pad width and not length. There is another report that states that pad width was related to bone width. I'm looking for that source.
If, pad width is related to bone width and bone width is related to nail width, then the width of the nail may have a relationship with the pattern, particularly if pattern is related to pad width.

Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Patti wrote:Thanks Martijn for your input.
I was referring to a report by Babler that would have been in one of Chris Plato's books. I'll look when I get a chance.
Aha... now I see what you mean: Babler's article is also presented in Plato's book 'Dermatoglyphics: Science in Transition' (1991).
And you are probably referring to this sentence in Babler's article (page 06 - http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf):
"http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_W_1991.pdf"
And after re-studying Babler's 1987 article again (http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf), I understand that the quote probably relates to the result found for the RADIAL LOOP.

But while the results in table 5 are not significant, but if the results for the radial loops had been included in table 5 as well... that could have produced a (small) significant result.
However, when we compared the size of the effect with the results found for 'volar pad width' (see table 2), then we should conclude that the effect-size for the radial loop is much smaller.
So Patti, at best Babler's study only suggest a correlation between finger print type and the 'tuft width' vs. 'distal phalange length'.... but only based on the result for the radial loop.
But 'tuft width' is no direct measure of the width of the distal phalange. So, this study provides no evidence for your assumption that phalange width correlates with fingerprint pattern type.
(Babbler only was able to measure the length of the distal phalange, but not the width of the distal phalange... probably because the width of the distal phalanges was 'inflatted' by the presence of the rather wide volar pads!)
Finally, I also notice that Babler wrote in his 1991 article:
"Whorl patterns tend to be associated with shorter distal phalanges"

"Using analysis of covariance procedures to adjust for increasing size due to age, no signficant differences between pattern types was found for either length of the distal phalanx or width of the tuft."
So, I guess I would need his 1989 article as well to understand ... because the results in table 5 of the 1987 article suggest that arches appear to be associated with relatively the shortest distal phalanges (when compared to volar pad with).

Nevertheless... it is interesting to remember that Babler's result suggest that there could be a link between relatively long, narrow distal phalanges and a radial loop.
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Most of the support I've seen for a radial loop was the inclination or leaning of the pad.
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Page 104 of the above mentioned book, last sentence of top section: "Babler was also able to demonstrate prenatally a direct association between apical pad symmetry and loop direction (ulnar or radial)." (1991)
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Martijn (admin) wrote:
But 'tuft width' is no direct measure of the width of the distal phalange. So, this study provides no evidence for your assumption that phalange width correlates with fingerprint pattern type.
(Babbler only was able to measure the length of the distal phalange, but not the width of the distal phalange... probably because the width of the distal phalanges was 'inflatted' by the presence of the rather wide volar pads!)
Finally, I also notice that Babler wrote in his 1991 article:
"Whorl patterns tend to be associated with shorter distal phalanges"
... But for me this doesn't make sense at all in the perspective of the conclusion in the 1987 article:
"Using analysis of covariance procedures to adjust for increasing size due to age, no signficant differences between pattern types was found for either length of the distal phalanx or width of the tuft."
So, I guess I would need his 1989 article as well to understand ... because the results in table 5 of the 1987 article suggest that arches appear to be associated with relatively the shortest distal phalanges (when compared to volar pad with).
... Anyway, none of the 3 articles presented by Babler appears to suggests a direct connection between fingerprint pattern and the width of the distal phalange.
Nevertheless... it is interesting to remember that Babler's result suggest that there could be a link between relatively long, narrow distal phalanges and a radial loop.
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.
From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:
"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."
http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf
Last edited by Patti on Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:43 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : added link)
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Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Lynn wrote:Thanks for your interesting posts Patti :-)


Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Patti wrote:
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.
From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:
"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."
http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf
Patti... you appear to assume that 'distal phalange width' is an indicator for 'volar pad width', but the effect-sizes in the 1987 article tell me that this is not the case.
Please remember, I have pointed out to the passages which explicitely described that both 'distal phalange length' and 'tuft width' do not correlate with pattern type.
And therefore there is in Babler's work also no foundation for making the assumption that nail width correlates with fingerprint type, which you suggested in the second message of this topic:
"This should relate the fingernail shape to the fingerprint!"
(The wikipedia quote only describes the general structure, but does not point out to any correlations in the typical variantions that could make a link to fingerprint type - which you mentioned as the essential part of your question as you mentioned in the title of this topic)
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Martijn (admin) wrote:Patti wrote:
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.
From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:
"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."
http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf
Patti... you appear to assume that 'distal phalange width' is an indicator for 'volar pad width', but the effect-sizes in the 1987 article tell me that this is not the case.
I don't think I've said that at all.
I compared distal bone width to fingerprint, and volar pad width to fingerprint. My post is about comparing fingerprint to fingernail via the widths of volar pad or distal bone.
p.s.: This association is in reference to prenatal conditions.
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Martijn (admin) wrote:Patti wrote:
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.
From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:
"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."
http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf
Patti... you appear to assume that 'distal phalange width' is an indicator for 'volar pad width', but the effect-sizes in the 1987 article tell me that this is not the case.
Please remember, I have pointed out to the passages which explicitely described that both 'distal phalange length' and 'tuft width' do not correlate with pattern type.
And therefore there is in Babler's work also no foundation for making the assumption that nail width correlates with fingerprint type, which you suggested in the second message of this topic:
"This should relate the fingernail shape to the fingerprint!"
(The wikipedia quote only describes the general structure, but does not point out to any correlations in the typical variantions that could make a link to fingerprint type - which you mentioned as the essential part of your question as you mentioned in the title of this topic)
The above (and below) quote is directly from Babler.
"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."
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Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Martijn, you have not shown there is no support for comparing fingernail width or shape to pattern type. You have only shown that you cannot find any research that has been done to support or discount my associations.
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Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type

http://php.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/images/6/6f/Bailey353.jpg
Patti- Posts : 3912
Join date : 2010-07-24
Re: Nail width compared to Fingerprint type
Patti wrote:Martijn (admin) wrote:Patti wrote:
I don't think I've made assumptions, or at least that wasn't my intention. I have made associations and placed them out here for discussion and input.
From Babler's paper "Prenatal Development of Dermatoglyphic Patterns: Associations with Epidermal Ridge, Volar Pad and Bone Morphology" (1987) Page 300 under "The Volar Pad and Ridge Configuration" heading, it says:
"Volar pad width, however, did show a significant association with pattern type. Specifically, narrow pads were associated with whorls. The mean pad widths for arches and loops, respectively were 2.01 and 1.53 mm where the mean pad width for whorls was 1.14 mm."
http://www.clpex.com/Information/Babler/Babler_Prenatal_Dev_Dermatoglyphic_Patterns.pdf
Patti... you appear to assume that 'distal phalange width' is an indicator for 'volar pad width', but the effect-sizes in the 1987 article tell me that this is not the case.
I don't think I've said that at all.
I compared distal bone width to fingerprint, and volar pad width to fingerprint. My post is about comparing fingerprint to fingernail via the widths of volar pad or distal bone.
p.s.: This association is in reference to prenatal conditions.
Yes Patti... you indeed have not said that. But it is quite obvious for my how you make your 'assocations': you have been jumping via volar pad width, and distal phalange shape, to nail width!
However, from the link between fingerprint type with 1) volar pad width and 2) distal phalange shape ... you can not jump into the assumption/conclusion that fingerprint type also correlates with nail width.
Especially, since you appear to underestimate the consequences of the fact that there is even contradictionary evidence:
Again, Babler explicitely described that the facts show that both distal phalange length and tuft width do NOT correlate with fingerprint type.
And then it would only be common sense to assume that distal phalange width does NOT correlate with fingerprint type either.
... Resulting in that according these 'logics', my conclusion so far is:
It is even UNLIKELY that fingernail width correlates with fingerprint type.
(and I repeat: I am not sure that the fingernail width can be described as a 'constant' measure either)
I hope that my conclusion now makes sense for you as well?

Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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