Vedic Pamistry

Hello mister Upendrasingh Bhadoriya,

Thank you for sharing your perceptions on "Indian Palmistry"!!

For those we are interested to read more about the history of palmistry in ancient India, I recommend the following source: http://www.cheirology.net/history/ancient.htm

(Actually, that source presents a full summary on the history of hand reading - which starts at the following page: http://www.cheirology.net/history/index.htm )

hi Upendrasingh, interesting to hear your thoughts about it. By the way, the quote you gave was actually by Christopher Jones, not Johnny Fincham. Johnny Fincham's site hosts a version of Christopher's History of Handreading website, that Martijn has linked to.

Upendrasingh Bhadoriya wrote:Martijn & Lynn
Namaste
Thank you for web-link and fact. Actually I have hard copy of history of Palmistry downloaded by somebody in which http://www.johnnyfincham.com /history/science.htm mentioned hence I have given name of Shree Johnny Fincham. Today I have seen a section “Traditional palmistry from India” in forum I will contribute my best and authentically in this part.

Sounds great mister Bhadoriya!

You are very welcome to share your thoughts at the section "Traditional palmistry from India"

(This symbol reminds me about the Indian God Ganesha)

Martijn (admin) wrote:

(This symbol reminds me about the Indian God Ganesha)

Respected Martijnji
Namste & Thank you
You are right ,this symbol means Lord Ganesh in India. We always
worship Lord Ganesh at the starting of all work.

Dear Upendrasingh and Stalin,

please can you help me. I'm just writing an article/intoduction for Astrowiki about Astro-palmistry and need some infomation.
Fred Gettings writes in "The book of the hand" p. 160: "....the earliest reference to palmistry in Indian literature is found in the Vasishtha rule 21 were an ascetic is forbidden to earn his living either "by explaining prodigies and omens, or by skills in astrology and palmistry, or by casuistry and expositions of the Shastras"".

Could you help me to find the source (in the internet)"

Thank you.

With kind regards
Manfred

Hello manfred,

I have very limited knowledge about the subject what you are asking me. Stories on sage.vasistha are favorite among indians. we can find some of the history/stories about him through internet surfing. but, i cannot give you any details about his contribution in astrology and palmistry as those scripts were originally written in sanskrit. I dont know sanskrit. If i gather any information about it, i inform you.

I really dont know which story of vasistha you're looking for. I dont know whether you read the details given in wikipedia link. here is the link.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasistha?wasRedirected=true

...still thank you Stalin.
Regards Manfred

Manfred, that quote is also on Christopher's "Handreading history" website
http://cheirology.net/history/india.htm

I found the Vasishtha rule 21 here
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe14/sbe1413.htm

Dear Lynn:

YOU ARE THE BEST!

I've got the first advice (the names "Code of Manu and Vasishtha rules") from Christopher's text and the advice to nr. 21 from F. Gettings "The book of the hand". But I couldn't find the rule 21 on the internet only until nr. 20 why ever.

Now here is nr.:
1. Let an ascetic depart from his house, giving a promise of safety from injury to all animated beings....
21. 'Neither by (explaining) prodigies and omens, nor by skill in astrology and palmistry, nor by casuistry and expositions (of the Sâstras), let him ever seek to obtain alms.'

I think is very worth to know. May be it's not too little because of to avoid any predictions on the base of "fishing for complements (money)".

Regards
Manfred

Hello lynn,

I did not find much truth in the writings of "chiristopher jones". He mean to say that indians follows the western palmistry nowadays, and they dont have the history about their origins of palmistry. But, It is the known truth that india is the first place where the palmistry rooted as proved by records and researches. Later, Through foreign traders , this art spreaded through out the world.

I claim 'He know little or nothing about indian culture and their history'.

Every country has pre-historic period due to lack of material evidences indeed. His claim is that the earliest record of palmistry found from the scripture written by vasista, dated around 300 b.c. As this script was translated by an english man , namely georg buhler, he came to this wrong conclusion. It does not mean that he learned every ancient scriptures of indians. Now i bet that i can show more earliest records than what christopher claims. I can provide the proof that claims the existences of palmistry in india between 9000-5000B.C periods. The events and history of Rama, incarnation of lord.vishnu. happened around the year 9000-5000B.C in india. We have references in epic ramayana, where many notes about palmistry, body marking reading were mentioned. This directly mean that palmistry was practiced in india before 5000b.c. some of the westerns may claim that period of 9000 B.C were the stone age period. But, the archeological and radio-carbon researches on indian sculpture called kalpha vigrah, was done by american CIA officials at 1960 proves that the sculpture is not belongs to this epoch and 28,450 years old by now. This evidents proves that Existence of rituals , arts on sculpture, literature(sculpture was safed in a teak wood timber box with scripture in it), philosophy, religious laws even before 26,450 B.C by now.
Here is the evident for my statement.
http://theunexplainedmysteries.com/kalpa-vigraha.html

stalin.v wrote:..... His claim is that the earliest record of palmistry found from the scripture written by vasista, dated around 300 b.c. As this script was translated by an english man , namely georg buhler, he came to this wrong conclusion. It does not mean that he learned every ancient scriptures of indians. Now i bet that i can show more earliest records than what christopher claims......

did you mis-read it stalin? Christopher mentions two sources, one from 2000BC & one from 300 BC. It says -
"the earliest known historical certainty concerning the origins of handreading within the Indian sub-continent dates from about 2000BC, for there is a reference to the practice of handreading in the ancient Vedic literature of India. In the Code of Manu and in the Vasishtha Rules, a list of rules are given to guide the ascetic in the correct way to lead the religious life; and here we find prohibitions which are specifically formulated to forbid the ascetic from earning a living through 'explaining prodigies and omens or by skill in astrology or palmistry'. This is possibly the earliest written mentions of the practice of handreading from anywhere in the world.

As with Hindu sacred literature, so the Brahmajala Sutta 1:21 of the Buddhist Vinaya Pitaka, dating from around the third century BC, also prohibits monks from earning a living from prognostication and divination from the hands or by other such means. The continuity of this 'rule' within the different ascetic traditions of India over so many hundreds of years is suggestive of the prevalence of handreading throughout all this time and lends supports to the widely held assertion that all traditions of handreading stemmed originally from India."

I am sure Christopher would welcome your information if you can find records that date further back.

Hello lynn,

Thanks for the correction. I'm not much exposed to the scriptures written by aryans. Then, The word 'betray' or 'forbidden' does not suit when ascetics are NOT allowed to earn money through any means ie., practicing divinations.. The ascetics of india should leave all material pleasures including wealth, family and society. When buddha planned to lead the ascetic life , first he left the kingdom. It is the rule in hinduism that ascetics should not earn money through any means. That does not mean that they were betrayed or forbidden by religion. It gives way to avoid the materialistic comforts. Buddha, was a king, but he lead an ascetic life and had food by begging. It is the interest of buddha to lead a ascetic life. It does not mean that he himself betrayed. On contrary, Ascetics are having higher social and religious values
although they beg and eat. Westerns should note this aspects before write about ascetics. because, pope of christians may live in air-conditioned room. but, the idea of hinduism is far remote in this matter.

sorry stalin, I don't understand. I don't see any mention of 'betrayed' in what Christopher wrote. You say they are 'not allowed' that means the same as 'forbidden'.

Hy,
beside the material world denying or avoiding aspect is, that interpreting omens, astrology and palmistry are subjects with wich the ascets are dealing.

Hello lynn,

Christopher writes

" In the code of manu and in the vasistha rules, a list of rules are given to guide the ascetic in the correct way to lead the religious life. and here we find prohibitions which are specifically formulated to forbid the ascetic from earning a living through "explaining prodigies and omens or by skill in astrology or palmistry''. "

In this paragraph, christopher give wrong impression that Indian ascetics are forbidden by the hindu's rules. Infact, Hinduism never compel anyone to lead the ascetic life. Infact, it is individual wish to either lead a family life or lead a ascetic life. I suggest that he should not use the word "forbid" in that paragraph. saints never feel that they were forbidden by leading ascetic life. Infact, they enjoys the life far better than the people who lead rich and luxurious life. Another mistake made by him is that he gives the impression by saying that all ascetics are leading religious life. It is quite wrong. They lead spiritual life. There is so much difference between religious life and spiritual life. Because , A family man can lead a religious life, not spiritual life. but, ascetics can only lead the spiritual life. prayer and devotion are not sufficient enough to increase the spiritual awareness. It can be only done by ascetics, via penance.
It is the individual wish/interest to lead an ascetic life if they want liberation. It does not mean that ascetics are the only peoples following the hinduism perfectly. In many scriptures of hinduism , it has been mentioned that virtues cannot be obtained without leading family life. Hence, Hinduism is not calling all the peoples to lead an ascetic life unlike buddhism. It gives way to both extremes of life. you can find sensual scriptuer in hinduism, formulated by sages. It allows family life as well. All depends on individual choices of living and their freedom. Religious Scriptures are made to guide them in either of the family life or ascetic life. But, still those are not strict rules. Those are guidance to the humanity.

Hello martijn,

It is not easy to feel the culture through arguments. I see christians, muslims, hindus, jains, and buddhist in india. I live and feel those people. we all are together. I see popes in india. I see saints in india. With a mutual understanding, we accept all religion and customs.

But, To make you understand what i mean, i can give a good number of examples.

what are the difference between christian pope and family man in hindu. what way they differ? only renunciation is the matter differentiate these two. Apart from that they both were allowed to live like a normal human being. But, why indian saints are going to forest and living there. what is the matter behind it. They can avoid the human contact very much. This allows the saint to not divert his attention towards materialistic pleasure. why should not they possess wealth and keep money? They should not fall into the any kind of desires . because, It might divert their spiritual path. Pope, saints, sages, ascetics, family man are all having the tendency and desire of human by birth. Their sexual desires or physiology of sex is not completely vanished after getting the title ''pope", or "saint". Hence, the guidelines were made by ancient hindus in order to reach perfection. i give only few reasons here although there are many. Very important thing is that a family man can turn into saint if he wishes. Noone can compel or push anybody to lead a ascetic life. It is their freedom/choice of living. Hence, the word 'forbid' is extremely wrong idea when mentioning saints..

your explanation sounds like popes were forbidden as they remain sexual abstinence. We read in news that how much christian/hindu saint or father do sexual offences. In order to avoid such sequences, ancient saints were guided by such rules. still, it is their wish of living. no restrictions or noone watch them whether they all follow the rule or not. Hence, it is extremely wrong to mean that they were forbidden.

Hello martijn,

I remember a short jen story.

A jen monk relaxes at seashore. At the time, alexander comes there. But, The monk does not bother alexandar and relaxing by seeing the sea.

Alexander says arrogantly, 'I am alexandar'.
Monk respond nothing.
Alexander ask again, 'I can help you, i can give you whatever you want'
Monk replies, I am enjoying sunlight now. so, just move aside.

This is the life style of ascetics. They cannot be win over by rules, or commandments. They seems like beggers. But, They can control the nature, fate, and death. Some stories in hinduism says that they have even control over demi-gods. They are wiser than scientists.

Check this link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=kPP3iVVXqTUC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=THIRUKKURAL+PENANCE&source=bl&ots=TyrxGlWuOr&sig=32hl_Len4-UryA2467N2JeQIEkQ&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
(I dont know whether this link works or not)

Okay I understand that for the same reason 'commandment' is not okay for you either.

Anyway, the major 'implication' of how the Vasishtha describes the ascetic life is... that for the proper use of palmistry, it is best to never ask a reward.

Again, I think the choice of words used by Gettings & Jones... indicates that they have very well understood this implication.


Dear Stalin, formally (from a philosophic point of view) ... I think you've made a valid point.

But basically one can always try to 'read' words in various tones.

And your words:

"Hence, it is extremely wrong to mean that they were forbidden."

... illustrate which tone was triggered in your mind when you read this word!! ( You disagreed!)

Coud that be an example of what you recently described as your 'saturn-like nature'? - Your nature might be involved in how you read the word. Resulting in putting too much salt on that single word, en now you are probably not able to recognize how the word was meant to be used according the authors.

Stalin, I am even quite sure that... if you had been able to talk with both authors, before they published their writings, you had probably been able to convince them that they better had used another word!


But at the end, my point would still be... from their words I get the impression that both authors very well understood the implications of the Vasishtha writings.

And I am thinking about the possibility that Jones might even have copied the word 'forbidden' from Gettings work, but in general... it would be more wise to not worry about specific words at all... and instead to take single words with a 'pinch of salt', etc.

Not sure that there is any better word available... though I think in general it is quite natural to describe a description from a Vedic text as a 'guideline'.


Though formally I understand there is no 'guideline' to be come an ascetic.
But at the end one could even starting wondering about why the Vasishtha .... presents the descriptions of an ascetic!

Hello martijn,

you seems out of ground.

There is an indian proverb . "we can get back scattered rice, but we can not take it back the words if once released"

The word can be "one" . But, Readers must be thousands or even million. You know how the internet communication expose to the public immediately all over the world. If christopher informs likewise wrong ideas, many peoples will be mis-guided/mis-informed. dont you agree?

saturn... Ha...ha.. It is really nice of you. There will be special mark expected on the saturn mount of saints. dont you agree? we, hindus have seperate devotional scripture for saturn god namely 'shani mahatyam' which is of ancient sanskrit origin. Almost, all people fear of saturn. Though, he is the one gives wealth. Come and see the saturn devotees in india ... He has many devotees in india. By the way, i like your comment in this regard.
Your last comment seems funny. When did i say saint dont have to follow any rules. I say that they cannot be win over by any rules.

Finally, I would like to say that i will be happy if christopher come across this page and read my written comments about his work.

Dear friends,

because I pushed the stone first to roll, please let me have one word:

Now we are again at the same point as so often. My recommendation:
Take one step behind and look at it from a distance. As many people live as many slightly different interpretations of "facts" are possible, because everyone wears slightly different glasses. If you can't agree me, take the following sentence simply as a haiku for a meditation. Remember at the beginning was:

21. 'Neither by (explaining) prodigies and omens, nor by skill in astrology and palmistry, nor by casuistry and expositions (of the Sâstras), let him ever seek to obtain alms.'

With best wishes
Manfred