I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Patti wrote:How did leaning fingers get assigned the qualities of introverted and extroverted? I think both types of personalities can be found holding their finger leaning in either direction.

The people who sit down and place their hands out with all their fingers leaning toward the little fingers may be or may not be introverted... but more often than not, they have an attitude that others would describe as 'full of themselves'. Being self-centered is not necessarily introverted or extroverted.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

This appers to me as a rather 'opportune' style of reasoning, with an underlying inconsisency.

Because obviously, the large 'fire quadrant' implicates the opposite of a large 'Ivory Tower' - which explains why you have said explicit (repeatedly) that you don't understand Johnny's use of vocabulary... and therefore, if you had used a likewise method of reasoning it would only have made sense if Johnny had stated that ulnar leaning fingers can be associated with 'extraversion'.

And for this reason I can not understand that you don't see any 'contradiction' in Johnny's writings at all... unles you are using two different methods of reasoning. Therefore I spoke of an 'other road'!

Lynn wrote:

Patti wrote:How did leaning fingers get assigned the qualities of introverted and extroverted? I think both types of personalities can be found holding their finger leaning in either direction.

The people who sit down and place their hands out with all their fingers leaning toward the little fingers may be or may not be introverted... but more often than not, they have an attitude that others would describe as 'full of themselves'. Being self-centered is not necessarily introverted or extroverted.

I don't think I used the terms because as I've said before I'm not entirely sure what they mean! When Martijn used them with regard to leaning fingers, I went along with it with regard to more (radial) or less (ulna) dependance on outer world.

btw when I'm talking about these extremes of leaning fingers, such as Johnny illustrates on P42, I am talking about habitually, a long term thing. Not the general signature of the fingers that can change depending on the situation.

Patti wrote:I noticed Martijn and Lynn discussing mixing and/or adding up elements and Lynn mentioning that she hadn't even begun to explain how to combine the mixtures. I think what Martijn is missing here is the nuances of this mixing. You don't end up with the idea of 2 fires and 1 water only meaning fire personality dominates. It might instead mean you have a lot of steam.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:My thoughts would be that the slightly larger ulnar side on women would relate to their primal role as mother, and as gatherer in regards to food. Whereas the male is the hunter and protector. A male with a larger ulnar side of palm is usually much more in touch with his nurturing side.

<edit> found the song I was looking for:

Peter Gabriel "Maybe he's looking for his womanly side, let him feel." Shaking the Tree

Hmmm.. again, while I used the words 'ulnar side' I had probably better used other words. Because I think my findings regarding the relatively lower 'pinky setting' in men are probably the results of the fact that men have relatively wider palms - and thus the setting of the pinky will be located at a relatively larger distance.

This could indicate that my findings regarding the setting of the pinky should be corrected for palm width, and this could also explain why the other male-female differences are much smaller.

Anyway, this is an interesting topic for later explorations (probably not in the near future).

Lynn wrote:

Patti wrote:I noticed Martijn and Lynn discussing mixing and/or adding up elements and Lynn mentioning that she hadn't even begun to explain how to combine the mixtures. I think what Martijn is missing here is the nuances of this mixing. You don't end up with the idea of 2 fires and 1 water only meaning fire personality dominates. It might instead mean you have a lot of steam.

exactly!

Yeah, steam and boiling water. But if the two fires are small, the water might be enough to put them out. And if we add another two elements we might have 'hot air' and getting 'bogged down in mud'. (some of which reminds me of this discussion!)

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

So far I could summarize your idea as: 'inner and outer are found in every zone of the hand'

Yes, and importantly in various degrees. I would use graphics similar to Holtzman in regards to the shading from one degree to another.

Lynn has throughout this discussion mentioned that she agrees with me that the ulnar side of the hand relates to inner qualities and the radial side relates to outer qualities. She had agreed that the fingers are outer and the palms are inner. Substitute the whichever polarity set of synonyms such as active/passive, conscious/subconscious, or ego/id you like.

I agree with Lynn there are many more ways to subdivide the hand in practice. Such as the 3 worlds of the palm.

Elements give more specified adjectives for Lynn, but the essences of 2 sets of halves becoming quadrants is basically the same and should be in all systems as the hands do not change to adapt to somebody's published words or systems.

<edit>
P.S.:
I was thumbing thru Judith Hipskind's 2nd book on the knuckles a couple of days ago and she spends a bit of time discussing the back of the hand and the public.

Patti, thank you for specifying & summarizing your thoughts... finally!


PS. In my view a principle becomes 'contradictive' when it is applied both to the vertical dimension AND the horizontal dimension of the hand.

Because, when radial = outer & ulnar is inner, AND when fingers = outer & palm = inner... then only the radial palm AND the ulnar fingers become associated with... both inner & outer!

Now this looks quite like an inconsistent use of principles to me... can you understand this perception of min?


(I also think that your description confirms that Lynn is using a different approach because she is only using the vertical approach for the palm and while she indeed also associates the palm with 'inner' she is using a more abstract concept regarding the fingers - so regarding Lynn's approach I could say that I only perceive an inconsistency regarding the radial palm... because in Lynn's approach it gets associated with outer & inner!)

Has anyone actually straightened out a number of palms with actual leaning fingers and measured them both ways for comparison?

What if the tendons and muscles in the hands of those with chronic leanings have adjusted to where there may not be much change if they straighten their fingers out.

Lynn wrote:

Has anyone actually straightened out a number of palms with actual leaning fingers and measured them both ways for comparison?

Yes of course, the C.Soc research group used to spend hours doing that kinda thing!
I know several people over the years whose leaning fingers have gradually straightened back to a more upright position (mine included) when they made changes in their life / attitudes etc.

What if the tendons and muscles in the hands of those with chronic leanings have adjusted to where there may not be much change if they straighten their fingers out.

Then they have habitually adopted that attitude / pattern of consciousness.

Sucom wrote:Hi Lynn,

You said: "Because when all the fingers are leaning to the radial side of the hand, it reduces the size of the fire (conscious, active) quadrant, making it a weak area in the person. Hence less ability to express their fire energy, assert themselves, take initiative and create change in their lives, and greater dependence on externals.

When fingers lean to the ulna side of the hand, it reduces the size of the air (subconscious active) quadrant so there is less emphasis on expressing their ideas, communication, evaluation, slower thought processes and greater prevarication & reliance on their instincts."

I'm not sure I would see it this way. I have always considered that when the fingers lean towards the radial side of the hand, the person actively pushes their ego out into the world. This goes along with the idea that when the fingers are held widely apart, thereby pushing the index finger further towards the radial side of the hand, the person is likely to be very outgoing. This appears to be in contrast to your thoughts that such a person would have difficulty asserting themselves. I do agree, however, that they are likely to rely on externals, albeit for a different reason.

I also find your thoughts about fingers leaning to the ulna side in contrast to my own. For me, this suggests a desire to contemplate one's inner self. As an example, a wide gap between the ring and middle fingers, due to the ring finger pulling towards the ulna side of the hand, I have usually read to imply a need for time alone to recharge one's batteries.

I'm interested to know if we have a different view here or if I'm reading your words incorrectly.

Patti wrote:In your description, Lynn, you are adding two energies. The leaning fingers plus the position of the thumb. The held in thumb shows insecurity in and of itself. It's retreating inward. While the fingers are leaning outward. In this situation, the thumb base has failed in the radial section (under the index finger) and the index has nothing solid to stand up on. Still I would not interpret this as to introversion and extroversion.

Patti wrote:The confusing aspects with introversion and extroversion is the mixing of temporary states of mind with personality types, in this discussion.

Patti wrote: I have seen radial leaning fingers with the thumb not pulled inwards. There are probably samples here in this forum. In this case the index often appears to be sitting on a pedestal.

Patti wrote:In your description, Lynn, you are adding two energies. The leaning fingers plus the position of the thumb. The held in thumb shows insecurity in and of itself. It's retreating inward. While the fingers are leaning outward. In this situation, the thumb base has failed in the radial section (under the index finger) and the index has nothing solid to stand up on. Still I would not interpret this as to introversion and extroversion.

Lynn wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Lynn wrote:...

Now you only leave me wondering... since the elemental system appears to use descriptions for the (upper) palm that appear to represent the opposite of Johnny's ideas, wouldn't that implicate that if you use likewise reasoning (like the one you described with Johnny's words)... the elemental principles would actually arrive at the opposite of Johnny's association regarding ulnar leaning fingers with introversion?

But I think I've already explained that both methods come to the same conclusion. (although I haven't gone into any details of how to analyse the active conscious and passive conscious (fire & air) quadrants).

... Lynn, let me put it like this:

I fully understand you view, because you have described to me that you associated the ulnar palm with inner world... and therefore you associate ulnar leaning fingers with outer world (this makes sense to me because at the Academie Antropodynamica the opposite associations are being used).
And I also understand why you don't want to associate the ulnar fingers with inner word, e.g. because you have described that it perfectly makes sense to you that the long ring finger is associated with 'extraversion' (as described by Johnny in his first book only) - which fits in my view with the 'outward' directed qualities associated with fire - especially when the fingers are concerned.

However, regarding Johnny's method you started reasoning about how the 'Ivory Tower' becomes larger when the fingers are leaning to the ulnar side (= more 'Ivory Tower')... and you used this single observation to argue that his 'introversion' association regarding the ulnar leaning makes sense to you. And yoiu assume that this is his 'method'.

(Correct?)

And in your use of the elemental principles (your 'method')... you obviously don't want to focus your attention on the 'fire quadrant' at all, because obviously you associate the 'fire quadrant' with outer world... and with ulnar leaning finger this 'fire quadrant' becomes larger - because the 'Ivory Tower' also gets larger.

(Correct?)


Now, I think my point is pretty obvious... regarding Johnny's vocabulary you are using different 'reasoning' in order to explain that how the large 'Ivory Tower' explains the 'introverted' ulnar leaning fingers. For, regarding Johnny's guidelines you talk about the size of the quadrant.. while in your own perspective you basically only start talking about the vertical principle.

And I don't recognize how this change of perspective (quadrant approach vs vertical approach) can be recognized as consistent.

This appers to me as a rather 'opportune' style of reasoning, with an underlying inconsisency.

Because obviously, the large 'fire quadrant' implicates the opposite of a large 'Ivory Tower' - which explains why you have said explicit (repeatedly) that you don't understand Johnny's use of vocabulary... and therefore, if you had used a likewise method of reasoning it would only have made sense if Johnny had stated that ulnar leaning fingers can be associated with 'extraversion'.

And for this reason I can not understand that you don't see any 'contradiction' in Johnny's writings at all... unles you are using two different methods of reasoning. Therefore I spoke of an 'other road'!


Lynn, I think this is about rather simple 'logics'... because it is simply impossible to apply the same rules to 2 opposite principles and then to find that the implications of both statements are actually the same.

(In short 'logics' implicate: consistent use of opposite principles results in opposite implications)


Anyway, I will now stop asking more questions about Johnny's work. But I want you to know that I have enjoyed our discussion about Johnny's work very much and it became very helpful to understand his work much better!

.

OK I understand what you are asking.
I have made a fundamental mistake really in projecting & trying to translate C.Soc methods of quadrant analysis onto Johnny's hand map, because Johnny doesn't use quadrant analysis these days. So, I guess we really shouldn't be comparing the two methods. I only used it to try and understand Johnny's keywords in conjunction with leaning fingers.

...

Glad that you now recognize your fundamental mistake, and thank you for acknowledging!

Interesting that you now describe that you have been 'projecting', but that was not what I described... nor suggested. I only described that you used two different methods as if there are two different systems, but I think before this discussion you perceived Johnny's books as representative for the elemental system that you were both taught .

However, Lynn, yesterday you stated that this discussion has hardly changed anything in your perceptions. But now you are sometimes talking as if Johnny presents a completely different system!


Now, regarding your explanation why you associate ulnar leaning fingers with 'introversion'... I find it stricking that in your new attempt you only talk about the quadrants while this is basically actually concerns a matter of 5 individual leaning fingers!

(Correct?)

Lynn wrote:
Anyway to explain a bit further about what I was trying to say...

In my description, when I said “it becomes a weak area in the person” I was basing it on an assumption that the fingers are leaning far enough for the quadrant mentioned to become the smallest of the four. I did this to make it easier to explain.
I said :

Because when all the fingers are leaning to the radial side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Ivory Tower quadrant, making it a weak area in the person. Hence no inner life, nor sense of self, sense of control, and greater dependence on externals.
When fingers lean to the ulna side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Public Stage quadrant so there is less emphasis on outer world, social connections, other people.

I could re-write it in 5-element terms as:
Because when all the fingers are leaning to the radial side of the hand, it reduces the size of the fire (conscious, active) quadrant, making it a weak area in the person. Hence less ability to express their fire energy, assert themselves, take initiative and create change in their lives, and greater dependence on externals.

When fingers lean to the ulna side of the hand, it reduces the size of the air (subconscious active) quadrant so there is less emphasis on expressing their ideas, communication, evaluation, slower thought processes and greater prevarication & reliance on their instincts.
...

Lynn, I hope you allow me to direct your attention back to Dukes' work... because the issue of leaning fingers has been described by Dukes on page 70 + 71. And Dukes describes the basic principle regarding how to approach the topic of leaning fingers as follows:

"If a finger leans towards another, it reveals that the element seeks fulfillment through another element. In your interpretation you must combine the qualities of the two elements in order to describe that person's consciousness."

(Lynn, I hope allow me to describe this as 'principle no.1')

This first principle perfectly makes sense to me, and I think it concerns a principle that is commonly used in most hand reading systems.


Then Dukes describes on page 71 in the first picture another interesting principle, where 'wide spacing of all fingers' gets associated with 'extroverted, active temperament'; this also concerns a commonly adopted principle in the various fields of hand reading.

(Lynn, I hope you allow me for a moment to describe this as principle no.2)

However,... interestingly, I think this implicates for when the fingers are leaning towards each other this by principle is associated with 'introverted, passive temperament'. And Johnny described this more explicit in his books.

( Correct?)


Now, I think that it makes sense to combine these (basic) principles 1 and 2 in order to find out how to interpretate the leaning of fingers - NOTICE: principle 2 is kind of the first specific example that Dukes describes... so it's importance should not be underestimated.

( Correct?)


Now, regarding radial leaning fingers... I think this suggests a combination of: 'all leaning fingers towards each other' + earth leaning to water + fire leaning to earth + and air leaning to fire.

Let's take a look at how Dukes interpretates these individual aspects:

- all leaning fingers towards each other = introverted, passive temperament
- earth leaning to water = (... earth seeking fulfillment through water)
- fire leaning to earth = (...fire seeking fulfillment through earth)
- fire leaning to air = speech or communication is inhibited or cautious.

Lynn, it's hard for me to specify the 2nd and 3rd aspect any further (with writings from Dukes, Fincham & Jones)... but at first sight this doesn't look like 'more outer' or 'more extraverted' at all - because the 1st and 4th actually point towards 'more introverted'.

Correct?

But there is more... because yesterday you mentioned (in response to my two quadrant picture) that when fingers leaning to the radial side the thumb usually gets more close the palm... you refered to an example of a water hand featured with a narrow angle in Johnny's book.

Interestingly, such a thumb is actually considered as another 'introverted' quality; Christopher writes:

"A narrow-angeld thumb indicates a more timid and retiring personality, someone who keeps more to themselves rather than making a dramatic impact on the world around us."


So, Lynn... regarding leaning fingers in specific towards the one side or the other, the elemental system does not appear to provide the basic elements to associate this with outward/inward... nor with introversion/extraversion... because Dukes actually does describe the basic-principle when leaning fingers get associated with extroversion (page 70):

"Fingers which lean away from the hand, i.e., the air or water fingers, demonstrate the wish of their owners to be free from the formative structures of their mental environment."

But this principle 3 (if you allow me) is not applicable to when fingers are leaning to the one or the other side: because in those cases the pinky- or index finger is not really pointing away from the other fingers at all!

Maybe it would sometimes even much more make sense to say that the pink or index finger actually is pushed away... or that the other fingers try to 'seek fulfillment' through the other fingers. Though I realize that this really depends on the details seen in a hand.


And mabye, regarding the radial leaning fingers one could argue here that since a long (dominant) water finger is associated with introversion... it could make sense to also associate radial leaning fingers with more introverted.

However, when I then get back to your quadrantial analysis... then it becomes clear that the effects in the radial leaning fingers sort of get 'compensated' by the smaller fire quadrant!

So, in a way we see two effects due to radial leaning fingers:
- the leaning fingers point towards more introversion
- but the quadrants point to more extraversion.

Both effects compensate each other, and from my point of view if perfectly makes sense that Dukes only associates 'spreading fingers' with extraversion... and he does not not talk about 'inner' or 'outer' regarding the ulnar palm nor regarding the radial palm!


Now Lynn, I don't know what your perception of the word 'holistic' really is.

But I can only hope that this attempt of mine to apply the principles for leaning fingers + fingers lengths + quadrants... in order to put them all together resulting in a 'holistic' conclusion (where things tend to get neutralized), will make sense.


PS. Your attempt to argue only via the quadrants... looks actually quite like the approach that you used regarding Johnny's description!

And your argument regarding that any quadrant analysis should actually include an analysis of all 4 quadrants... really makes me wonder about why you actually even started talking about only 1 quadrant in the perspective of 'leaning fingers' anyway!????

Yesterday I avoided to talk about the other 2 quadrants in order to not make things even more complicated, but... now I could actually argue that in the perspective of how to interpretate 'leaning fingers' it would have made much more sense if we actually had started talking about the leaning of the individual fingers - because I think it only makes sense to consider the quadrants AFTER a consideration regarding the individual fingers. Because only then an analysis can be described to represent a truely 'holistic' approach!

(Correct? )

Patti wrote:How did leaning fingers get assigned the qualities of introverted and extroverted? I think both types of personalities can be found holding their finger leaning in either direction.

The people who sit down and place their hands out with all their fingers leaning toward the little fingers may be or may not be introverted... but more often than not, they have an attitude that others would describe as 'full of themselves'. Being self-centered is not necessarily introverted or extroverted.

Excellent question Patti!

(I think your observation regarding that both personality types can be found holding their fingers in either directions... is fully supported by my research materials; and in my reasoning presented in my long response to Lynn I have described how tendencies regarding the individual leaning fingers actually get neutralized by observations regarding the quadrants!)

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:

This appers to me as a rather 'opportune' style of reasoning, with an underlying inconsisency.

Because obviously, the large 'fire quadrant' implicates the opposite of a large 'Ivory Tower' - which explains why you have said explicit (repeatedly) that you don't understand Johnny's use of vocabulary... and therefore, if you had used a likewise method of reasoning it would only have made sense if Johnny had stated that ulnar leaning fingers can be associated with 'extraversion'.

And for this reason I can not understand that you don't see any 'contradiction' in Johnny's writings at all... unles you are using two different methods of reasoning. Therefore I spoke of an 'other road'!

Somehow this is becoming more about vocabulary assignments rather than actually taking a look at the energies of the hands themselves. You can't just say that a quadrant is bigger or smaller because of the way the fingers are leaning. This is ridiculous!! I can stand on my tippy toes for heaven's sake but that's not in reality going to make me longer from heel to the top of my head, nor will I be a shorter person leaning against the wall.

If this were true, then a person's mood/attitude would instantly change all day long just based on changing hand positions typing, doing chores, gripping stuff. etc.

I have likewise thoughts regarding the approach to define the quadrants via the leaning of fingers. By the way, Johnny describes in his book that in his view it actually requires a person to put the fingers straight forward in order to make an analysis (just to avoid that things get influences by the moment, etc.)

Lynn wrote:

Patti wrote:How did leaning fingers get assigned the qualities of introverted and extroverted? I think both types of personalities can be found holding their finger leaning in either direction.

The people who sit down and place their hands out with all their fingers leaning toward the little fingers may be or may not be introverted... but more often than not, they have an attitude that others would describe as 'full of themselves'. Being self-centered is not necessarily introverted or extroverted.

I don't think I used the terms because as I've said before I'm not entirely sure what they mean! When Martijn used them with regard to leaning fingers, I went along with it with regard to more (radial) or less (ulna) dependance on outer world.

btw when I'm talking about these extremes of leaning fingers, such as Johnny illustrates on P42, I am talking about habitually, a long term thing. Not the general signature of the fingers that can change depending on the situation.

Lynn wrote:

Patti wrote:The confusing aspects with introversion and extroversion is the mixing of temporary states of mind with personality types, in this discussion.

ah yes! leaning fingers can change. Is the personality type of introversion/extraversion fixed & unchanging?

Patti wrote: I have seen radial leaning fingers with the thumb not pulled inwards. There are probably samples here in this forum. In this case the index often appears to be sitting on a pedestal.

I'd be interested to see them if you come across any.