I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I will substantiate my perspective a little bit more by presenting some passages from the works of Ursula von Mangoldt and Matthias Mala (who both can be recognized as representatives of the German 'Chirologie' school in the 2nd half of the 20 century)


After mentioning the name Ursula von Mangoldt (Gettings has described her work as one of the few early modern authors worthy of attention - next to Spier & Jaquin) in one of my earlier posts in this topic, I would like to share a small sample from her work... in order to illustrate that he 'Ich - Dich' [translated: I - You] vertical sub-division in her work (she literally speaks of 'polaren' - poles - which one could associated with: Yin - Yang) is likewisely related to the works of Birla & Sprong (who use: Ida - Pingala).

Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]


One of Mangoldt's student authors has described the vertical division a litle bit more clearly. Mathias Mala writes in his work "Esoterisches Handlesen" the following on page 31 regarding the You-site (Du-seite):

"Trotzdem liegt dieses Du nicht ausserhalb des Menschen und seiner Innerlichtkeit. Es ist viel mehr ein dem Egozentrum ferner Bereich. In ihm liegt das den Menschen Gemeinsame, das archetypische und psychologische Grundmuster. Auf dieser Seite zeigt sich aber auch unsere Fähigkeit, mit dem uns Fernen und scheinbar Gegenüberstehenden in Kommunikation zu treten und dadurch unser Selbst zu formen. In diesem Bereich wirkt andererseits eine drängende Kraft, die die sich auf der Ich-Seite manifestierende Vitalkraft zu modifizieren versucht."

[Translated: "Nevertheless, this 'You' is not outside of man and his Inner. It is much more an area beyond the Egozentrum. It represents the similar features seen in man, the archetypal and psychologic basic pattern. This side shows also our ability to interact with the distant and seemingly opposite parties in communication, and thereby to shape our self. In this area also works a pressing force, that is trying to modify on the I-side manifesting vital force."]

NOTICE: The picture below is taken from Matthias Mala's work; the bottom quote is also featured in right side of the picture (see the [ ] - signs)



After studying the work of Jung I can now finally point out that this quote from Mala kind of describes how the (unconscious) archetypes inside us represent basic patterns that become the necessary 'tools' people need in order to interact with other people.

- Von Mangoldt was also an author of other works related to spirituality and esoterics, see: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_Mangoldt#Chirologie

-Matthias Mala is also a German author who has published many books, include 3 works about hands: http://www.matthias-mala.de


This 3-week lasting discussion has finally helped me to get a grip on what the German authors actually described. Not sure about the exact connection between the work of Ursula von Mangoldt [1904-1987] and the work of Julius Spier [1887-1942]... but von Mangoldt must have studied Spier's work very well - and it is interesting to knowing that Spier was trained by Jung who has encouraged Spier to focus on psycho-chirology.

And I think I have now finally managed to describe how the work of Birla & Sprong relate to the esoteric German hand reading school (NOTICE: Spier's work is Psychoanalytic oriented and non-esoteric - therefore Spier's work should not be associated with the esoteric German hand reading school... unfortunately I was not able to point this out in an earlier phase of this discussion).

I will ask Manfred to describe how the works of Spier & Mangoldt should be perceived to each other!

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I will substantiate my perspective a little bit more by presenting some passages from the works of Ursula von Mangoldt and Matthias Mala (who both can be recognized as representatives of the German 'Chirologie' school in the 2nd half of the 20 century)


After mentioning the name Ursula von Mangoldt (Gettings has described her work as one of the few early modern authors worthy of attention - next to Spier & Jaquin) in one of my earlier posts in this topic, I would like to share a small sample from her work... in order to illustrate that he 'Ich - Dich' [translated: I - You] vertical sub-division in her work (she literally speaks of 'polaren' - poles - which one could associated with: Yin - Yang) is likewisely related to the works of Birla & Sprong (who use: Ida - Pingala).

Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]


One of Mangoldt's student authors has described the vertical division a litle bit more clearly. Mathias Mala writes in his work "Esoterisches Handlesen" the following on page 31 regarding the You-site (Du-seite):

"Trotzdem liegt dieses Du nicht ausserhalb des Menschen und seiner Innerlichtkeit. Es ist viel mehr ein dem Egozentrum ferner Bereich. In ihm liegt das den Menschen Gemeinsame, das archetypische und psychologische Grundmuster. Auf dieser Seite zeigt sich aber auch unsere Fähigkeit, mit dem uns Fernen und scheinbar Gegenüberstehenden in Kommunikation zu treten und dadurch unser Selbst zu formen. In diesem Bereich wirkt andererseits eine drängende Kraft, die die sich auf der Ich-Seite manifestierende Vitalkraft zu modifizieren versucht."

[Translated: "Nevertheless, this 'You' is not outside of man and his Inner. It is much more an area beyond the Egozentrum. It represents the similar features seen in man, the archetypal and psychologic basic pattern. This side shows also our ability to interact with the distant and seemingly opposite parties in communication, and thereby to shape our self. In this area also works a pressing force, that is trying to modify on the I-side manifesting vital force."]

NOTICE: The picture below is taken from Matthias Mala's work; the bottom quote is also featured in right side of the picture (see the [ ] - signs)



After studying the work of Jung I can now finally point out that this quote from Mala kind of describes how the (unconscious) archetypes inside us represent basic patterns that become the necessary 'tools' people need in order to interact with other people.

- Von Mangoldt was also an author of other works related to spirituality and esoterics, see: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_Mangoldt#Chirologie

-Matthias Mala is also a German author who has published many books, include 3 works about hands: http://www.matthias-mala.de


This 3-week lasting discussion has finally helped me to get a grip on what the German authors actually described. Not sure about the exact connection between the work of Ursula von Mangoldt [1904-1987] and the work of Julius Spier [1887-1942]... but von Mangoldt must have studied Spier's work very well - and it is interesting to knowing that Spier was trained by Jung who has encouraged Spier to focus on psycho-chirology.

And I think I have now finally managed to describe how the work of Birla & Sprong relate to the esoteric German hand reading school (NOTICE: Spier's work is Psychoanalytic oriented and non-esoteric - therefore Spier's work should not be associated with the esoteric German hand reading school... unfortunately I was not able to point this out in an earlier phase of this discussion).

I will ask Manfred to describe how the works of Spier & Mangoldt should be perceived to each other!

Lynn wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Ah... I think here's the formal proof why Christopher was wrong regarding associating fire & earth with "more outgoing" (= hot):

Air is primarily wet and secondarily hot.
Fire is primarily hot and secondarily dry.
Earth is primarily dry and secondarily cold.
Water is primarily cold and secondarily wet.

Christopher has never said that earth is hot.

You keep bringing up Christopher's use of the word 'expressive' and 'outwardly directed' for earth and claiming he is incorrect, has made a mistake, has violated his own principles, violated earth archetype, violated yin/yang etc etc. I have explained this to you before, but you decline to take on board.....

In his chapter about Li & Chi - principles vs manifestations, in addition to saying that earth and water are passive (yin) elements and fire and air are active (yang) Christopher uses the words expressive and outwardly directed for earth and fire because:

The most visible, tangible part of you (ie your earth) is your physical body.
We interact physically in the world via our physical body.
The first thing that is noticeable about you is your earth (your physical, tangible body shape & form) and your fire (your actions), whereas your water and air (emotions and thoughts) remain hidden.
In that way, earth is expressive and outwardly directed.

Lynn, coincidently I found the following 2 pictures at this website:
http://www.thenrgroup.net/member/MRO/OCT/OCT-64.htm

Can you find the (white) words 'inward looking' and 'outward looking' in both pictures below? And the (yellow) word 'Expression' in the bottom picture?

Then we can also connect the 4 temperaments the 4 elements as follows:

air = sanguine
water = phlegmatic
earth = melancholic
fire = choleric

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Temperaments#History_and_the_ancient_four_temperaments


Finally, if we combine all these principles... the result is interesting: we see that earth & water get linked with 'inward looking', and fire & air get linked with 'outward looking'; and ... the word 'expression' is directly associated with Air only (Fire is more a matter of 'application').




Lynn, do you recognize how this proofs my point?

Air (sanguine temperament) & Fire (choleric temperament) are linked with 'outward looking'; while Earth (melancholic temperament) and Water (phlegmatic temperament) get connected with 'inward looking'.


By the way, in this 'Archive for the Personality Category' the words 'outgoing' and 'expressive' are linked only with the element... air (= sanguine)!

This implicates that Air is much more 'outward directed' than Earth; because Earth stays where it is due to it's inert quality... while Air goes everywhere whenever it can!

Therefore it's a fundamental and philosophic mistake to associate earth with the words 'more outwardly' because this suggests a dynamic process directed towards the outside. Because earth is crystalized & static:= inert; earth is not moving- and not directed anywhere.

Only Fire & Air are 'outward looking'... and 'outward directed'.
And Air is the most 'expressive' & talkative element: the archetype of Mercurius has this quality as well!

And therefore, I think this very precisely explains why Johnny's reference for the Air quadrant is very specific regarding the words 'public stage', 'world stage' and 'outer world'.

(Fully supported by Duke's guideline!)

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]


One of Mangoldt's student authors has described the vertical division a litle bit more clearly. Mathias Mala writes in his work "Esoterisches Handlesen" the following on page 31 regarding the You-site (Du-seite):

"Trotzdem liegt dieses Du nicht ausserhalb des Menschen und seiner Innerlichtkeit. Es ist viel mehr ein dem Egozentrum ferner Bereich. In ihm liegt das den Menschen Gemeinsame, das archetypische und psychologische Grundmuster. Auf dieser Seite zeigt sich aber auch unsere Fähigkeit, mit dem uns Fernen und scheinbar Gegenüberstehenden in Kommunikation zu treten und dadurch unser Selbst zu formen. In diesem Bereich wirkt andererseits eine drängende Kraft, die die sich auf der Ich-Seite manifestierende Vitalkraft zu modifizieren versucht."

[Translated: "Nevertheless, this 'You' is not outside of man and his Inner. It is much more an area beyond the Egozentrum. It represents the similar features seen in man, the archetypal and psychologic basic pattern. This side shows also our ability to interact with the distant and seemingly opposite parties in communication, and thereby to shape our self. In this area also works a pressing force, that is trying to modify on the I-side manifesting vital force."]

Martijn (admin) wrote:


Ursula von Mangoldt writes on page 81 in her work 'Schicksal in der Hand - Diagnosen und Prognoses' regarding the vertical subdivision:

"Neben der horizontalen Dreiteiling der inneren Händfläche gibts es noch eine zweite Aufteilung, die vertikale, die die Ich-Seite vond der Du-seite scheidet. Diese Trennung vollzieht die Saturnlinie, die grosse Vertikale, die in ihrer Idealform zwischen Venus- und Mondberg entspringt und zum Saturn-berg aufsteigt. Die Zweiteilung der Hand ist Sinnbild der polaren, allem Geschaffenen innewohnenden Spaltung in Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit. Dies Spaltung entfremdet das Geschöpf dem Schöpfer, trennt dem Menschen vom Menschen, Mann und Frau, und enthüllt in dieser Entfremdung die ganze Verzweiflung und leidvolle Isolierung des Menschen, der immer wieder nach seinem Gegenpol, seiner Ergänzung und Erlösung im anderen suchen muss."

[Translated: "Besides the horizontal triple divison for the inner hand there is a second division: the vertical, which seperates the I-side from the You-side. This separation goes via the Saturn line [fate line], the large vertical rising from between Venus and mount of Moon in it's ideal shape to the mount of Saturn. The division of the hand is a symbol of the poles, all created inherent to split the 'I' and 'You', subject and object, active and passive, creative male force and female receptivity. This schism alienated the creature to the creator, separates people from people, man and woman, and reveals in this alienation all despair and painful isolation between people, who are always searching their antithesis, its complement and redemption in the other."]

Patti wrote:
Here is the translation I made:

Nevertheless this you does not lie outside of the person and its interior light-ness. It is much more the ego center furthermore area. In it, lies the person joint, the archetypal and psychological basic scenario. On this side, however also our capacity that appears to step with us distances and apparently opposing in communication and to our form through it even. In this area, a pressing power causes on the other hand to modify that the vital power tried manifesting itself on the I side

It appears to me that you have interpreted it a little incorrectly, and these subtle differences change things a lot. Such as here in my translation it is saying that it is the "ego center" and you are saying it is beyond the ego. And other such inconsistencies.

No Patti, your translation is incorrect... of course the Ego gets linked with the Ich ('I') side of the hand.

By the way, the first quote als says:

"Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit."

This implicates:

Ich ('I') = subject = active = male creative force
Du ('You') = object = passive = female reception

Ego = subject = I = Ich


PS. The German translation of Freud's Super-Ego is... Über-Ich: again, Ego = Ich!!!

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:
Here is the translation I made:

Nevertheless this you does not lie outside of the person and its interior light-ness. It is much more the ego center furthermore area. In it, lies the person joint, the archetypal and psychological basic scenario. On this side, however also our capacity that appears to step with us distances and apparently opposing in communication and to our form through it even. In this area, a pressing power causes on the other hand to modify that the vital power tried manifesting itself on the I side

It appears to me that you have interpreted it a little incorrectly, and these subtle differences change things a lot. Such as here in my translation it is saying that it is the "ego center" and you are saying it is beyond the ego. And other such inconsistencies.

No Patti, your translation is incorrect... of course the Ego gets linked with the Ich ('I') side of the hand.

By the way, the first quote als says:

"Ich und Du, Subject und Object, Aktives und Passives, in männlich-schöpfiches Kraft und weibliche Empfänglichkeit."

This implicates:

Ich ('I') = subject = active = male creative force
Du ('You') = object = passive = female reception

Ego = subject = I = Ich


PS. The German translation of Freud's Super-Ego is... Über-Ich: again, Ego = Ich!!!

Martijn (admin) wrote:


Then we can also connect the 4 temperaments the 4 elements as follows:

air = sanguine
water = phlegmatic
earth = melancholic
fire = choleric

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Temperaments#History_and_the_ancient_four_temperaments


Finally, if we combine all these principles... the result is interesting: we see that earth & water get linked with 'inward looking', and fire & air get linked with 'outward looking'; and ... the word 'expression' is directly associated with Air only (Fire is more a matter of 'application').




Lynn, do you recognize how this proofs my point?

Air (sanguine temperament) & Fire (choleric temperament) are linked with 'outward looking'; while Earth (melancholic temperament) and Water (phlegmatic temperament) get connected with 'inward looking'.


By the way, in this 'Archive for the Personality Category' the words 'outgoing' and 'expressive' are linked only with the element... air (= sanguine)!

This implicates that Air is much more 'outward directed' than Earth; because Earth stays where it is due to it's inert quality... while Air goes everywhere whenever it can!

Therefore it's a fundamental and philosophic mistake to associate earth with the words 'more outwardly' because this suggests a dynamic process directed towards the outside. Because earth is crystalized & static:= inert; earth is not moving- and not directed anywhere.

Only Fire & Air are 'outward looking'... and 'outward directed'.
And Air is the most 'expressive' & talkative element: the archetype of Mercurius has this quality as well!

And therefore, I think this very precisely explains why Johnny's reference for the Air quadrant is very specific regarding the words 'public stage', 'world stage' and 'outer world'.

(Fully supported by Duke's guideline!)

Martijn (admin) wrote:

This implicates that Air is much more 'outward directed' than Earth; because Earth stays where it is due to it's inert quality... while Air goes everywhere whenever it can!

Therefore it's a fundamental and philosophic mistake to associate earth with the words 'more outwardly' because this suggests a dynamic process directed towards the outside. Because earth is crystalized & static:= inert; earth is not moving- and not directed anywhere.

[/color]

Patti wrote:
Well, if my translation is incorrect - why did you just agree with it?? You had originally said it was beyond the ego, not the ego. "

To go further:
"In it, lies the person joint, the archetypal and psychological basic scenario." This is the description for "you" and not the "I".

Nothing I've read in any of the translations is implying that this I and You is relating to anyone other than the divided Self. Or Self divided into Consciousness (You) and Ego/Persona/Shadow (I)

Patti, I am wondering: did you ever get any German lessons at all?

In your You-side translation you suggested that the You-side is the Ego:

Patti wrote:
... Such as here in my translation it is saying that it is the "ego center" and you are saying it is beyond the ego.

You've mistranslated even some of the simplest things, because: Ich = Ego.
And therefore it is also not surprizing that you disagree regarding my translations.

In your 2nd translation probably include likewise mistakes... you presented various non-readable sentences, and you were also not able to translate some of the German words.


Again Patti, from the start of this topic I have described the full hand as a representation of the mind. I have never suggested that the ulnar side of the hand is 'outsde' us, nor did I suggest that 'You' is found outside us. Of course not!

In my first post of this topic I have stared describing [u>the full hand in terms of 'identity':

"The above implicates that in a neutral vocabulary (not associated with a specific religion nor a specific philosophy) one might say that in the field of hand reading the thumb can be said to represent the 'core-identity' of a person."

And in my 3th post I have presented a picture describing how each finger presents a different part of our identity.

[img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f12/15/45/02/10/no-man10.jpg[/imb]


I have only described that the ulnar side relates more to how we interact with the outer world than the thumb side.

So, your conclusion below is probably based on a combination of your own mistranslation of the German words + misreading my words.

Patti wrote:
It probably would have saved a few weeks of time if you had posted these quotes earlier.

Although there is a description of I and You, the "you" is only the mirror - the opposite - one seeks to balance within themselves or within a relationship. It is not in this sense the 'public' per se, but about opposites and inner balance.

<edit>
I is the inner self and you is the outer self only in the sense the I is the 'me' inside the little baby reaching out with it's fisted hand - opening and closing it's fingers with outer world skills saying "me! me! me!"

Patti, it appears that you have entered some kind of state of mind... where you tend to disagree about almost anything that I have posted.

However, I can end this post with a positive note; because I really like the first 11 words of your final sentence in the quote above:

"I is the inner self and you is the outer self..."