Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:37 pm

Lynn wrote:I wrote a long reply and my computer turned itself off and rebooted before I hit send. I need to get it fixed!

I am sorry to hear this Lynn.

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:38 pm

If I was asked to connect the 5 fingers with my picture then I would position the thumb in the center of my picture + the other four fingers at the four sides of the picture below.

And I think this picture illustrates nicely in a large perspective how the thumb has a very special role & position inside the hand!

(I think the picture below is consistent with the Yin-Yang principles used in Elemental Chirology... Lynn, how does the picture below appear to you?)

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 31 Elemen13

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 31 Elemen13

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:30 pm

This Wikipedia table describes the principles more explicit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-factor_models_of_personality#Table_of_Theories_and_Instruments_using_Extroversion_and_People-Task-orientation

- Earth = introverted task oriented (+ melancholic temperament)
- Water = introverted relationship oriented (+ phlegmatic temperament)
- Fire = extroverted task oriented (+ choleric temperament)
- Air = extroverted relationship oriented (+ sanguinic temperament)

This shows how the outer ulnar side of the hand (= water palmar quadrant + air palmar quadrant + pinky finger) can be understood as the 'You' side because it is 'relationship oriented'.

thinking

Maybe one could also describe it as the 'We'-side of hand... because the 'You' side is of course only a part of the mind itself!

And this also shows how regarding the radial fingers (index finger + middle finger) are more 'introverted' than the ulnar fingers (pinky + ring finger). This side of the hand is much more related to the needs & desires of the individual itself. This explains how this side of the hand got associated with the Ego and is described as the 'I' side of the hand.

Finally I could at that I perceive the thumb as the 'controler' of both sides of the hand; that is why I have associated it with Jung's concept of the Self.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 31 Hand-j20

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 31 Hand-j20

**Kiran.Katawa** Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:57 pm

Hi Martijn,

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:The most visible, tangible part of you (ie your earth) is your physical body.
We interact physically in the world via our physical body.
The first thing that is noticeable about you is your earth (your physical, tangible body shape & form) and your fire (your actions), whereas your water and air (emotions and thoughts) remain hidden.
In that way, earth is expressive and outwardly directed.[/b]

Lynn, do you recognize how this proofs my point?

Air (sanguine temperament) & Fire (choleric temperament) are linked with 'outward looking'; while Earth (melancholic temperament) and Water (phlegmatic temperament) get connected with 'inward looking'.

This implicates that Air is much more 'outward directed' than Earth; because Earth stays where it is due to it's inert quality... while Air goes everywhere whenever it can!

Therefore it's a fundamental and philosophic mistake to associate earth with the words 'more outwardly' because this suggests a dynamic process directed towards the outside. Because earth is crystalized & static:= inert; earth is not moving- and not directed anywhere.

Only Fire & Air are 'outward looking'... and 'outward directed'.
And Air is the most 'expressive' & talkative element: the archetype of Mercurius has this quality as well!

And therefore, I think this very precisely explains why Johnny's reference for the Air quadrant is very specific regarding the words 'public stage', 'world stage' and 'outer world'.

(Fully supported by Duke's guideline!)

[/color]

You have highlighted what Lynn has written, but, not associating it correctly.
The philosophical association of earth with outward movement and the way you're interpreting it to outward movement are different.

Refer this wiki link here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_(classical_element)
This is what it says: "It was commonly associated with qualities of heaviness, matter and the terrestrial world".
It is in terms of the matter and territory that earth is outgoing and not w.r.t. the movement to distal places as is case with Air.

Re-air: This is what Jen says in her blog: http://godgivenglyphs.com/category/blog/
"observe, investigate, analyse, theorise and research, all air element principles."
All these are inner qualities only. Yes, communication is something which is happening out there and it reaches to mass people. It is the meaning which is INSIDE, which is with-in those in-visible, non-touchable words, in those vibrations of the air which represent the air element. The words when said/received are "analyzed" and "understood" with a common background. If I write here - "slkjflsjdflajsdfoijojwoe", I am physically transferring some bits and bytes to all the readers here. There is no inside meaning in it. That's where the AIR element is missing, though the text is reaching to all.

**Manfred** Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:23 pm

Dear Martijn and friends,

first of all I would recommend don't mix together the 4 classical or astrological elements with others or 5 elements. Further divide the palm from the fingers. And then, don't use elements for the fingers, better or classic are the planets (some of them don't belong to more than one element). My experience from counsellings not from theories are: Even the calling of one planet to a special finger (without Saturn) isn't always clear.

There is also no need to use a too fixed system for palmistry anyway. Because always busy
here a very quick diagramm which may be helpfull for the daily practise.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 31 Handsc10

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 31 Handsc10

Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:35 pm

Manfred wrote:Dear Martijn and friends,

first of all I would recommend don't mix together the 4 classical or astrological elements with others or 5 elements. Further divide the palm from the fingers. And then, don't use elements for the fingers, better or classic are the planets (some of them don't belong to more than one element). My experience from counsellings not from theories are: Even the calling of one planet to a special finger (without Saturn) isn't always clear.

There is also no need to use a too fixed system for palmistry anyway. Because always busy
here a very quick diagramm which may be helpfull for the daily practise.

Hi Manfred!! wave

Thanks for sharing a diagram! I'm unable to see what you wrote in the yellow color.

Your divisions appear fairly traditional and they are what Martijn has spent nearly a month arguing on his own against.

Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:42 pm

Manfred,
I also agree that the elements shouldn't be assigned to the fingers.

Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:16 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti... it's a mystery to me why you decided to delete the hot/cold + dry/wet dimensions and the 4 elements, because these are actuallyl considered as connected, the details are described here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Temperaments#History_and_the_ancient_four_temperaments

I was keeping it simple and showing the flow and process (as I see it) using the charts that you provided. It's easy to see both incoming and outgoing via the thumb as representative of the Self. Follow the arrows.

I have never agreed with the assignment of the Elements from the first time I was introduced to them in Dukes' book and a few years later when I met the remaining active members of the C. Soc. at the Cafe online. Then they were still deciding what to keep and what to lose because they had lost their trust in Terrance Dukes because of the exposed lies. He said he brought the system from Asia but instead borrowed from Gettings and made up the rest. Apparently to match fractal energy with his endless boxes (of 4 in a system of 5).

The so called principles have only been anecdotally verified as applied to the hand. The elements were arbitrarily assigned to sections of the hands.

I could never use them as presented as saying things like the index finger was Water seemed 'just plain wrong'.

Yet, I have to admit, when Martijn pointed out the static nature of Earth, plus my own awareness of the hypothenar and its structure - it makes sense to place Earth there. Once that is done, the other 3 were obvious.

The physical vitality is like an inner furnace. Earth as physical is only a body and it could be a dead body. But there is a fire withing. We (physically) inhale cool air, but exhale warm, moist air. We are Earth, Air, Fire and Water as a machine.

Air is the mind and our initial awareness is reaching out and touching with our index finger and then the other fingers.

Water is our emotions and social communication and creativity come from what we feel.

Fire is our fuel and energy to express ourselves into the world and to consume the world.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 31 Quadra11

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 31 Chart_11

Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:21 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
In my first post of this topic I have stared describing the full hand in terms of 'identity':

"The above implicates that in a neutral vocabulary (not associated with a specific religion nor a specific philosophy) one might say that in the field of hand reading the thumb can be said to represent the 'core-identity' of a person."

[/color]

Martijn

How can you, with a straight face and serious tone, refer to your first post for any reason at all as to your initial thoughts. You've done this several times. Your first post has been edited 15 times! Shocked

p.s.: My apologies if you feel I've been nitpicking the errors in your posts. It's a tough job, but someone's go to do it.

**Manfred** Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:59 pm

Hy Patty,

it's not in all parts exact traditionally if you look at it and it really took me a long time to get it for shure. The yellow finger section means air, the yellow in the Mercury means traditionally communikation and additionally self-depiction (house 3).

Pluto (house 8) means in my interpretation: Fixed models.
Green Venus: House 2. Green Mercury in the thumb: House 6. The top phalanxe on the thumb: House 1.
The thumbsite: AC (ascendent), the opposite DC (descendent).
Therefore the Apollon: Partnership or encounter (what comes as the You - thumb as I).

I don't use the zodiac because in the hand we find the indiviualised zodiac: The houses.

Therefore for me some Indians that use it for the finger sections are wrong because the zidoac is the macro kosm and the hand is the micro cosm.

Please don't await long discussions, that's what I feard. But try it simply in practise and you'll find it right.

Allways pleased to hear from you.
Manfred

Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:34 pm

Manfred wrote:Hy Patty,

it's not in all parts exact traditionally if you look at it and it really took me a long time to get it for shure. The yellow finger section means air, the yellow in the Mercury means traditionally communikation and additionally self-depiction (house 3).

Pluto (house 8) means in my interpretation: Fixed models.
Green Venus: House 2. Green Mercury in the thumb: House 6. The top phalanxe on the thumb: House 1.
The thumbsite: AC, the opposite DC.
Therefore the Apollon: Partnership or encounter (what comes as the You - thumb as I).

I don't use the zodiac because in the hand we find the indiviualised zodiac: The houses.

Therefore for me some Indians that use it for the finger sections are wrong because the zidoac is the macro kosm and the hand is the micro cosm.

Please don't await long discussions, that's what I feard. But try it simply in practise and you'll find it right.

Allways pleased to hear from you.
Manfred

Thank you for your insights Manfred and describing your view. And, I'm not expecting a long discussion from you. Very Happy

I like the idea of not fixing the zodiac, but using the individual's info instead - this may be the frustration of many of readers of both palms and astrology. The inability to be flexible and see how the chart matches the hands rather than apply a fixed chart to a living hand. And the microcosm - macrocosm, I get that!

sunny

**Manfred** Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:51 pm

...an addition: The problem of really fixing specially the Apollon (5 and 7 house) has it's roots in that we get variations depending in which house, sign or aspect the Sun/Venus is (mention the sequence as a sign of it's preority).

Regards
MM

RishiRahul Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:17 pm

Patti wrote:
Manfred wrote:Hy Patty,

it's not in all parts exact traditionally if you look at it and it really took me a long time to get it for shure. The yellow finger section means air, the yellow in the Mercury means traditionally communikation and additionally self-depiction (house 3).

Pluto (house 8) means in my interpretation: Fixed models.
Green Venus: House 2. Green Mercury in the thumb: House 6. The top phalanxe on the thumb: House 1.
The thumbsite: AC, the opposite DC.
Therefore the Apollon: Partnership or encounter (what comes as the You - thumb as I).

I don't use the zodiac because in the hand we find the indiviualised zodiac: The houses.

Therefore for me some Indians that use it for the finger sections are wrong because the zidoac is the macro kosm and the hand is the micro cosm.

Please don't await long discussions, that's what I feard. But try it simply in practise and you'll find it right.

Allways pleased to hear from you.
Manfred

Thank you for your insights Manfred and describing your view. And, I'm not expecting a long discussion from you.

I like the idea of not fixing the zodiac, but using the individual's info instead - this may be the frustration of many of readers of both palms and astrology. The inability to be flexible and see how the chart matches the hands rather than apply a fixed chart to a living hand. And the microcosm - macrocosm, I get that!

Hi Patty,

You are quite correct here, I presume.
For example 3 stands for Jupiter in numerology; but the numerological Jupiter is not the 'same' as the palmistic Jupiter.

RishiRahul

RishiRahul Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:25 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
In my first post of this topic I have stared describing the full hand in terms of 'identity':

"The above implicates that in a neutral vocabulary (not associated with a specific religion nor a specific philosophy) one might say that in the field of hand reading the thumb can be said to represent the 'core-identity' of a person."

[/color]

Martijn How can you, with a straight face and serious tone, refer to your first post for any reason at all as to your initial thoughts. You've done this several times. Your first post has been edited 15 times!

p.s.: My apologies if you feel I've been nitpicking the errors in your posts. It's a tough job, but someone's go to do it.

Oh my God!

I did not notice this about the first post edited ...15 times!... over approx 2 months.
Let us hope Palmistry is not used to play Politics!?

RishiRahul

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:51 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
In my first post of this topic I have stared describing the full hand in terms of 'identity':

"The above implicates that in a neutral vocabulary (not associated with a specific religion nor a specific philosophy) one might say that in the field of hand reading the thumb can be said to represent the 'core-identity' of a person."

[/color]

Martijn How can you, with a straight face and serious tone, refer to your first post for any reason at all as to your initial thoughts. You've done this several times. Your first post has been edited 15 times!

p.s.: My apologies if you feel I've been nitpicking the errors in your posts. It's a tough job, but someone's go to do it.

Patti, I have edited my first quite a few times... only because I have added all my 7 earlier charts inside that post + the words describing the first picture! Banana waving

The words written in those 8 pictures featured in my first post are the evidence supporting the content of my post that you responded to.

Patti, it appears that you are trying to dispute my sincerity... but your observations are rather associative and highly misleading. I have to ask you to study the full content of my first post (including the 8 pictures) much better than you have done so far.

Because what you are insinuating is not true at all!

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:54 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
In my first post of this topic I have stared describing the full hand in terms of 'identity':

"The above implicates that in a neutral vocabulary (not associated with a specific religion nor a specific philosophy) one might say that in the field of hand reading the thumb can be said to represent the 'core-identity' of a person."

[/color]

Martijn How can you, with a straight face and serious tone, refer to your first post for any reason at all as to your initial thoughts. You've done this several times. Your first post has been edited 15 times!

p.s.: My apologies if you feel I've been nitpicking the errors in your posts. It's a tough job, but someone's go to do it.

Oh my God!

I did not notice this about the first post edited ...15 times!... over approx 2 months.
Let us hope Palmistry is not used to play Politics!?

RishiRahul

Rishi... I have to ask you to consider my explanation in my previous post, which illustrates why Patti's suggestion is misleading (the first post has been edited multiple times because it presents an overview of the pictures that I have presented during this very long discusison... just to present a quick overview of the steps that I have made!).

Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:03 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
In my first post of this topic I have stared describing the full hand in terms of 'identity':

"The above implicates that in a neutral vocabulary (not associated with a specific religion nor a specific philosophy) one might say that in the field of hand reading the thumb can be said to represent the 'core-identity' of a person."

[/color]

Martijn How can you, with a straight face and serious tone, refer to your first post for any reason at all as to your initial thoughts. You've done this several times. Your first post has been edited 15 times!

p.s.: My apologies if you feel I've been nitpicking the errors in your posts. It's a tough job, but someone's go to do it.

Patti, I have edited my first quite a few times... only because I have added all my 7 earlier charts inside that post + the words describing the first picture!

The words written in those 8 pictures featured in my first post are the evidence supporting the content of my post that you responded to.

Patti, it appears that you are trying to dispute my sincerity... but your observations are rather associative and highly misleading. I have to ask you to study the full content of my first post (including the 8 pictures) much better than you have done so far.

Because what you are insinuating is not true at all!

Please don't point me to look at your photos more carefully.

Evil or Very Mad

And how dare you accuse me of being deceptive when you copy me into a PM that you sent to Lynn using my new idea for elements and the quadrants to point out she's incorrect but at the same time say you're not going to bother to respond to me here on the board because it's obvious I'm confused and don't know what I'm talking about!

Shocked

And I'm supposed to not question your sincerity? Suspect

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:07 pm

Manfred wrote:Dear Martijn and friends,

first of all I would recommend don't mix together the 4 classical or astrological elements with others or 5 elements. Further divide the palm from the fingers. And then, don't use elements for the fingers, better or classic are the planets (some of them don't belong to more than one element). My experience from counsellings not from theories are: Even the calling of one planet to a special finger (without Saturn) isn't always clear.

There is also no need to use a too fixed system for palmistry anyway. Because always busy
here a very quick diagramm which may be helpfull for the daily practise.

Sorry Manfred, I can understand your advice not to 'mix' the elements of one system with the another system. I can fully support your advice!

However, your picture is not very precise... and it appears that the word 'earth' is even in contradiction with your 2nd advice regarding not to associate the elements with the fingers.

So I hesistate to give you any other feedback because it appears that your picture is just a rought (spontaneous) sketch which very well include a few more features that are not congruent with the guidelines that you have described.

Anyway, thank you for your sharing your thoughts!

Thumb up

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:27 pm

Patti wrote:
Please don't point me to look at your photos more carefully.

And how dare you accuse me of being deceptive when you copy me into a PM that you sent to Lynn using my new idea for elements and the quadrants to point out she's incorrect but at the same time say you're not going to bother to respond to me here on the board because it's obvious I'm confused and don't know what I'm talking about!

And I'm supposed to not question your sincerity?

Patti, I will put my cards open on the table:

I now see that the PM (below) that you received... was not received by Lynn at all; I didn't 'copy you in'... I directly send it to you (sorry for that) and Lynn has not received it at all.

So, I apologize for this mistake and I apologize that you got confronted with that PM. ( Embarassed

)

However, I don't mind to share the content of that PM publicly... if necessary. But I don't expect that you will like that.

Patti, what can I do to correct this mistake?

PS. Again, I have not send the PM to Lynn (maybe you can verify this with Lynn if necessary).

Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:31 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Please don't point me to look at your photos more carefully.

And how dare you accuse me of being deceptive when you copy me into a PM that you sent to Lynn using my new idea for elements and the quadrants to point out she's incorrect but at the same time say you're not going to bother to respond to me here on the board because it's obvious I'm confused and don't know what I'm talking about!

And I'm supposed to not question your sincerity?

Patti, I will put my cards open on the table:

I now see that the PM (below) that you received... was not received by Lynn at all; I didn't 'copy you in'... I directly send it to you (sorry for that) and Lynn has not received it at all.

So, I apologize for this mistake and I apologize that you got confronted with that PM. ( )

However, I don't mind to share the content of that PM publicly... if necessary. But I don't expect that you will like that.

Patti, what can I do to correct this mistake?

PS. Again, I have not send the PM to Lynn (maybe you can verify this with Lynn if necessary).

You are welcome to make it public.

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:46 pm

Patti wrote:
You are welcome to make it public.

Okay Patti, no problem.

The following was the PM that Patti received (while the PM was actually meant to be sent to Lynn - entirely my mistake of course Embarassed

):

PM Martijn wrote:Title: Patti's elemental representation

Lynn, I think Patti's new picture-result (see below) clearly provides evidence for my earlier observation that I think her ideas do not really match with your ideas at all.

(Though we can observe from her picture that it does include the inner vs. outer idea - but that actually appears to be only a minor similarity with your ideas... because she describes the link between the 4 elements and the hand completely different compared to the principles used in Elemental Chirology; and her approach also hardly shows any similarities with Gettings's elemental approach).

I think she is very confused about many things... including the elemental principles; but she tends to simply deny anything and everything whenever she can, and she tends to 'miror' critical feedback - via the use rethorics that suggest that the 'sender' is projecting everything.

Not sure that I will repond to her post describing that picture... anyway, the many fundamental inconsistencies inside her picture compared the concepts used in Elemental Chirology have now become very obvious!!!

Patti Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:54 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
You are welcome to make it public.
Okay Patti, no problem.

The following was the PM that Patti received (while the PM was actually meant to be sent to Lynn - entirely my mistake of course ):

PM Martijn wrote:Title: Patti's elemental representation

Lynn, I think Patti's new picture-result (see below) clearly provides evidence for my earlier observation that I think her ideas do not really match with your ideas at all.

(Though we can observe from her picture that it does include the inner vs. outer idea - but that actually appears to be only a minor similarity with your ideas... because she describes the link between the 4 elements and the hand completely different compared to the principles used in Elemental Chirology; and her approach also hardly shows any similarities with Gettings's elemental approach).

I think she is very confused about many things... including the elemental principles; but she tends to simply deny anything and everything whenever she can, and she tends to 'miror' critical feedback - via the use rethorics that suggest that the 'sender' is projecting everything.

Not sure that I will repond to her post describing that picture... anyway, the many fundamental inconsistencies inside her picture compared the concepts used in Elemental Chirology have now become very obvious!!!

You obviously did not even read the remarks to that image - it was a direct response to your description of Earth. Instead your Ego grabbed it to go throw in the face of Lynn and in some way insult both of us.

It is too bad that you are unable to brainstorm and discuss things. All you do is blast aside and try to discredit anyone and everyone that disagrees with you.

I came the closest to agreeing with you with my chart and you are too caught up in your own agenda to see it!

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:39 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
You are welcome to make it public.
Okay Patti, no problem.

The following was the PM that Patti received (while the PM was actually meant to be sent to Lynn - entirely my mistake of course ):

PM Martijn wrote:Title: Patti's elemental representation

Lynn, I think Patti's new picture-result (see below) clearly provides evidence for my earlier observation that I think her ideas do not really match with your ideas at all.

(Though we can observe from her picture that it does include the inner vs. outer idea - but that actually appears to be only a minor similarity with your ideas... because she describes the link between the 4 elements and the hand completely different compared to the principles used in Elemental Chirology; and her approach also hardly shows any similarities with Gettings's elemental approach).

I think she is very confused about many things... including the elemental principles; but she tends to simply deny anything and everything whenever she can, and she tends to 'miror' critical feedback - via the use rethorics that suggest that the 'sender' is projecting everything.

Not sure that I will repond to her post describing that picture... anyway, the many fundamental inconsistencies inside her picture compared the concepts used in Elemental Chirology have now become very obvious!!!

You obviously did not even read the remarks to that image - it was a direct response to your description of Earth. Instead your Ego grabbed it to go throw in the face of Lynn and in some way insult both of us.

It is too bad that you are unable to brainstorm and discuss things. All you do is blast aside and try to discredit anyone and everyone that disagrees with you.

I came the closest to agreeing with you with my chart and you are too caught up in your own agenda to see it!

Patti, I can only inform you... I have studied all key-words inside your chart (and I also did read your remarks in the preceeding post):
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p735-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#26725

To me it appears that you made another association with hand motorics (after I described how earth is 'inert', it appears that you assumed that there earth can be associated with the least mobile zone of the hand).

Sorry, I can not recognize your chart as any attempt to agree with me about anything at all. In the active-passive topic I have described why I think that the elements should simply not be associated with hand motorics at all (I describe how various hand motorics can relate to Yin and other to Yang).

By the way, you also didn't express anything inside your comment featured with your chart that could suggests that your chart was indeed an attempt to find some kind of an agreement.

Patti Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:22 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
You are welcome to make it public.
Okay Patti, no problem.

The following was the PM that Patti received (while the PM was actually meant to be sent to Lynn - entirely my mistake of course ):

PM Martijn wrote:Title: Patti's elemental representation

Lynn, I think Patti's new picture-result (see below) clearly provides evidence for my earlier observation that I think her ideas do not really match with your ideas at all.

(Though we can observe from her picture that it does include the inner vs. outer idea - but that actually appears to be only a minor similarity with your ideas... because she describes the link between the 4 elements and the hand completely different compared to the principles used in Elemental Chirology; and her approach also hardly shows any similarities with Gettings's elemental approach).

I think she is very confused about many things... including the elemental principles; but she tends to simply deny anything and everything whenever she can, and she tends to 'miror' critical feedback - via the use rethorics that suggest that the 'sender' is projecting everything.

Not sure that I will repond to her post describing that picture... anyway, the many fundamental inconsistencies inside her picture compared the concepts used in Elemental Chirology have now become very obvious!!!

You obviously did not even read the remarks to that image - it was a direct response to your description of Earth. Instead your Ego grabbed it to go throw in the face of Lynn and in some way insult both of us.

It is too bad that you are unable to brainstorm and discuss things. All you do is blast aside and try to discredit anyone and everyone that disagrees with you.

I came the closest to agreeing with you with my chart and you are too caught up in your own agenda to see it!

Patti, I can only inform you... I have studied all key-words inside your chart (and I also did read your remarks in the preceeding post):
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p735-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#26725

To me it appears that you made another association with hand motorics (after I described how earth is 'inert', it appears that you assumed that there earth can be associated with the least mobile zone of the hand).

Sorry, I can not recognize your chart as any attempt to agree with me about anything at all. In the active-passive topic I have described why I think that the elements should simply not be associated with hand motorics at all (I describe how various hand motorics can relate to Yin and other to Yang).

By the way, you also didn't express anything inside your comment featured with your chart that could suggests that your chart was indeed an attempt to find some kind of an agreement.

You have argued with Lynn that Johnny, Christopher and Jennifer have outward oriented elements in inward locations or, yin symbols in yang locations. For example, the Earth element assigned to the lower Thenar mount or Venus. That section is in the lower half of the hand, with terminology that relates to passive or subconscious. It is on the radial side of the hand which is traditionally recognized as the outer half. Nearly all those that actually read hands support this view of the quadrant. Outer Self and Passive/Subconscious.

Earth element is feminine, yin, and receptive. It's energy is inward.

There are two solutions:
1. Change the Element assigned to the quadrant.
2. Change the side to Inner so that the Element can stay.

You have chosen the latter and I choose the former as a solution.

The only valid solution would be the one that makes practical sense when put into use.

So you can continue with Earth as the element ruling the thenar and describe it as Outer in the 5 E system, or Inner in your proposed system. But then earth needs to be defined as Earth as the most physically active (yang) which it isn't in an of itself, or Earth as the most physically receptive (yin).

If you simply keep the tried and true locations of Inner and Outer, and change this quadrant to Fire - it fits as the Vitality, the spark of life, family hearth, and burning desire. All things related to this mount.

And Earth fits as feminine receptivity for the hypothenar area.

I prefer moving the elements in the quadrants rather than switching the inner and outer sides. I imagine it was 'males' that made the main decisions where to place the elements in the first place. At least it appears that way by the assignments.

**Lynn** Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:14 am

I've been trying to fix my computer, meanwhile so much here that I want to reply to. I'll start with Kiran as he addresses the subject of my reply this morning that never got sent due to computer rebooting.

Kiran.Katawa wrote:You have highlighted what Lynn has written, but, not associating it correctly. The philosophical association of earth with outward movement and the way you're interpreting it to outward movement are different.

Refer this wiki link here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_(classical_element)
This is what it says: "It was commonly associated with qualities of heaviness, matter and the terrestrial world".
It is in terms of the matter and territory that earth is outgoing and not w.r.t. the movement to distal places as is case with Air.

Re-air: This is what Jen says in her blog: http://godgivenglyphs.com/category/blog/
"observe, investigate, analyse, theorise and research, all air element principles."
All these are inner qualities only. Yes, communication is something which is happening out there and it reaches to mass people. It is the meaning which is INSIDE, which is with-in those in-visible, non-touchable words, in those vibrations of the air which represent the air element. The words when said/received are "analyzed" and "understood" with a common background. If I write here - "slkjflsjdflajsdfoijojwoe", I am physically transferring some bits and bytes to all the readers here. There is no inside meaning in it. That's where the AIR element is missing, though the text is reaching to all.

Thank you Kiran, at least someone understands what I am talking about! cheers

I have explained it a few times, that when Christopher said 'expressive' for earth, he was talking about the manifestation in human terms. Li vs Chi - principles vs manifestations.

Patti said

The elements were arbitrarily assigned to sections of the hands.

They weren't arbitrarily assigned to the hand, they were assigned according to the Principle of Graduated Materiality, from the most tangible, manifest, concrete element to the least, ie earth, water, fire, air.
In the quadrants the two passive elements were placed on the lower half of the palm, the two active elements on the upper part of the palm, and the most tangible of each pair placed on the radial outer half of the palm.

sorry my computer is acting erratically. I can't finish this reply!

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