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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Lynn on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:29 am

Sorry I can only reply in short segments.
Patti I am sorry to read about the PM from Martijn. As Martijn said - I never received that PM.

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Post  Lynn on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:31 am

Great to see input from Manfred Thumbs up! wave

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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Empty Solution For Lynn's problem

Post  learner on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:56 am

Hi Ms. Lynn,

I'd like to suggest a remedy for your computer reboots.
Type out your posts in a word processing software such as MS Word. Save it after every 2 or 3 sentences. Once your thoughts are on paper, just copy & paste into this forum.
This way, you will not have to rewrite the whole thing again.


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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Empty Thumb has it's own Brain Connection

Post  Patti on Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:02 am

The top illustration from "The Psychobiology of the Hand" shows the connections from the hand to the brain via neuron connections. I have colored the connections to see them more distinctly. It may be important to note how the thumb stands out, in that it has a connection of it's own that isn't shared with the other digits.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Psycho11
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Psycho12
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Psycho15
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Psycho13
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Psycho14



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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:20 am


15 Years ago I created a database for my diseration study in psychology. Tonight I have checked whether the aspect of thumb length and checked whether the high scorers on the Big Five dimension Extraversion show any different pattern from the low scorers.

The assessment method regarding thumb length was direct observation from the hand, and thumb length was rated via 4 categories:

1) very short thumb length
2) slighty short thumb length
3) normal thumb length
4) long thumb length

All assments were made before the Big Five results were available.

Back then I was hardly aware of the male-female difference, so I have checked now for the first my database regarding this aspect for both males and females seperately (various analyses for males and females together had not produced any significant results for the full research population, nor for the so-called extreme scorers: lower scorers scoring 1, 2 or 3, high scorers scoring 7, 8 or 9).


The most interesting aspect of the results today (for in total 6 E-low males & 7 E-high males, and 11 E-low females & 28 E-high females seperately) are:

1) None out of 17 low scorers (= 0%) on Extraversion (scoring 3, 2 or 1) have a very short thumb; while 9 out of 35 high scorers (= 25%) on Extraversion (scoring 7, 8 or 9) have a very short thumb.

2) In both males and females the low scorers on Extraversion (= introverts) have by average (slightly) larger thumbs; but this tendency is only (very) significant for the males: male low scorers on Extraversion have an average score +61% higher than the average score of the high scorers on Extraversion; in females the difference is neglectible (only +1%).

3) The largest effect-size is observed between the maximum group scorers (low scorers scoring 1 versus high scorers scoring 9), with consistent results in males and females for both hands (though only significant for the males).


thinking Well, I think it's about time to start working on an article about the nature of thumb that will cover many of the isues that we have discussed inside this interesting topic regarding the thumb.

The input of especially Patti & Lynn in this discussion has helped me to become more aware that thumb should probably best be considered seperately from the fingers... for many reasons, starting with the obvious anatomic difference between the thumb and the other 4 fingers!

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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:02 pm


One more quote from the work of Ursula von Mangoldt:

In 'Schicksal in der Hand' does she start her chapter about the pinky (mercury) & ring finger (apollo) with the following words (p.62):

"Sind Daumen und Zeigefinger typische Exponenten der aktiven Ichbehauptung und Eigenwelt, so werden Merkur- und Apollofinger zum Ausdruck der Sehnsucht, die zum Du, zum Umwelt führt und nicht mehr sich selbst im Aussen dar zu zellen, sondern das Aussen passiv in sich aufzunehmen sucht."

[Translated: Thumb and index finger are typical exponents of the active self-assertion and ones own world, Mercury and Apollo fingers express the longing, that leads to the You, the environment and and not to represent themselves in the outside, but to absorb the environment passively.]


I think this passage shows how thumb & index finger represent active self-assertion - which represents a direct manifestation of the inner world into the outer world.

While the pinky & ring finger are the passive components that relate to how the outer world is absorbed and perceived (where the archetypes of the unconscious - which reside inside the mount of moon - are the necessary structures & tools that are required to understand the outer world in order to make communicate possible).

So, I could specify that both sides of the hand play a role in how the mind works and how we relate to the outer world. The thumb & index finger show more of how the inner world (in terms of drives, needs & desires) becomes manifest in the outer world, and the pinky and ring finger show more how we perceive & communicate with the outer world in order to absorb it into the inner world... in order to individualize ourselves.

This probably explains why long thumbs (which can be the result of high set thumbs) and long index fingers (relative to ring finger length) are more often seen in people who are more introverted. And long fingered people (who have long middle fingers) show this tendency towards introversion as well.

I think this explains why short thumbs (which can be the result of low set thumbs) and long ring fingers (relative to index finger length) are more seen in people who are more extroverted. And short fingered people (who have short middle fingers) show this tendency towards more extraversion as well.

Short thumbs are more 'passive' regarding their own inner needs, drives and desires, and therefore... they tend to live more 'extraverted' via the ulnar side of the hand - unless the ulnar side of the hand (e.g. short ring finger) is underdeveloped as well!


thinking Hmmm... this summary could provide the basis for at least one paragraph in my article.

( cheers )

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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Empty Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Post  Patti on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:30 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:



I think this passage shows how thumb & index finger represent active self-assertion - which represents a direct manifestation of the inner world into the outer world.

While the pinky & ring finger are the passive components that relate to how the outer world is absorbed and perceived (where the archetypes of the unconscious - which reside inside the mount of moon - are the necessary structures & tools that are required to understand the outer world in order to make communicate possible).

[

Exactly what I and Lynn and then Sue (along with other members) have said from the beginning. Too bad you didn't take a look at this book earlier as it seemed to say the same thing in a way that got through to you.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:58 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

I think this passage shows how thumb & index finger represent active self-assertion - which represents a direct manifestation of the inner world into the outer world.

While the pinky & ring finger are the passive components that relate to how the outer world is absorbed and perceived (where the archetypes of the unconscious - which reside inside the mount of moon - are the necessary structures & tools that are required to understand the outer world in order to make communicate possible).


Exactly what I and Lynn and then Sue (along with other members) have said from the beginning. Too bad you didn't take a look at this book earlier as it seemed to say the same thing in a way that got through to you.

Patti, my words above are consistent with the perceptions that I started sharing in my very first post.

And I think so far you have never described the radial hand to represent more a manifestation of the inner world to the outer world, nor did you describe the ulnar hand to represent more how the outer world is perceived and absorbed.

Nor did Lynn & Sue!

(But if you think that all three of you have described this view... then you are very welcome to present a quote which illustrates your observation; but so far I have to consider your claim is unfounded)


By the way, be aware: the logical consequence of my description above is that the thumb is more representive for the inner world - e.g. illustrated by my research results which point out that a more dominant thumb and/or index finger tend to result in a more introvert orientation = more directed towards inner world in terms of inner drives, needs & desires (and a likewise tendency regaring the long middle finger relative to the palm shape): that is why the passive water and earth finger on the radial side appear fine with me.

And... a more dominant ring finger results in a more extravert orientation = more towards the outer world: that is why I perceive the fire and air finger (both are 'outward directed' elements) on the radial side appear fine with me.

(But I have already pointed out how I perceive the basics of the Yin-Yang philosophy used in Elemental Chirology to be consistent with the Ida-Pingala priniciple used in Vedic palmistry & the 'Ich-Du' principle used in the German esoteric chirosophy school - von Mangoldt is one of the key-figures)


However Patti... I am happy to see that now suddenly (finally!) it appears that you have found yourself a way to be able to relate to how I have explained & substantiated my view this time! Thumbs up!


PS. thinking Maybe...


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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Empty My own Mind

Post  knox gillespie on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:04 pm

When my thoughts are restricted, the flow of ideas, the identified thoughts, the whispering shadows , once arrested , I have my own mind said, "The Thumb" !
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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:21 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

I think this passage shows how thumb & index finger represent active self-assertion - which represents a direct manifestation of the inner world into the outer world.

While the pinky & ring finger are the passive components that relate to how the outer world is absorbed and perceived (where the archetypes of the unconscious - which reside inside the mount of moon - are the necessary structures & tools that are required to understand the outer world in order to make communicate possible).


Exactly what I and Lynn and then Sue (along with other members) have said from the beginning. Too bad you didn't take a look at this book earlier as it seemed to say the same thing in a way that got through to you.

Patti, my words above are consistent with the perceptions that I started sharing in my very first post.

And I think so far you have never described the radial hand to represent more a manifestation of the inner world to the outer world, nor did you describe the ulnar hand to represent more how the outer world is perceived and absorbed.

Nor did Lynn & Sue!

(But if you think that all three of you have described this view... then you are very welcome to present a quote which illustrates your observation; but so far I have to consider your claim is unfounded)


By the way, be aware: the logical consequence of my description above is that the thumb is more representive for the inner world - e.g. illustrated by my research results which point out that a more dominant thumb and/or index finger tend to result in a more introvert orientation = more directed towards inner world in terms of inner drives, needs & desires (and a likewise tendency regaring the long middle finger relative to the palm shape): that is why the passive water and earth finger on the radial side appear fine with me.

And... a more dominant ring finger results in a more extravert orientation = more towards the outer world: that is why I perceive the fire and air finger (both are 'outward directed' elements) on the radial side appear fine with me.

(But I have already pointed out how I perceive the basics of the Yin-Yang philosophy used in Elemental Chirology to be consistent with the Ida-Pingala priniciple used in Vedic palmistry & the 'Ich-Du' principle used in the German esoteric chirosophy school - von Mangoldt is one of the key-figures)


However Patti... I am happy to see that now suddenly (finally!) it appears that you have found yourself a way to be able to relate to how I have explained & substantiated my view this time! Thumbs up!


PS. thinking Maybe...

No, you are very mistaken! Lynn and Sue can speak for themselves. I have always been clear. You have been in a fog, seemingly until now.

It's right here in this example! You overlooked what I actually included and remarked about why I left out the elements and other symbols.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Chart_12

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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:31 pm

The chart above is consistent with this one here below.

Applying Water to the Little Finger Quadrant accounts for our outer show of Emotions as physical show of emotions, but also as an expression in the arts. Sue's sharing of her becoming inwardly lost in her piano playing for hours at a time is a perfect example of this productive creative/emotional expression from within.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Quadra12
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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:47 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

And then for me it is completely weird ( affraid ) to see you argue here: "that quadrant [upper ulnar palmar quadrant] does not represent the outer world".

confused confused


(Sorry Lynn, if I told you that "pinky relates to the OUTER world"... and then I would add some kind of rethoric reasoning which ends me in saying: "... and therefore, pinky relates to the INNER world, because it does not represent the OUTER world"... then I would understand if an outsider afro would ask us: 'cool, how much did you smoke to get 'stoned'?)


However... I can confirm that IF Johnny would also use your 'weird' reasoning, then I would have simply have to conclude that there is indeed no clear 'change' in Johnny's 2nd book at all.

rolling on the floor

(More feedback later!)[/color]

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Alternatingcurrent

If the 'outsider' happened to be an electrical engineer, they would immediately realize the electrical nature of the human body and think 'alternating current'.

Bump
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Post  Patti on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:47 pm

Patti on Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:22 am

Patti wrote:Last night reading hands at an event, I consciously tried to look at the ulnar side as outer and the radial side as inner and the readings could only be accurately done in the normal sense of the inner is being projected outwardly and the outer is being received... I'm simply defining which to which degree.

Martijn, have you made many attempts to actually putting your theory into practice, yet?

Bump
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:04 pm

Patti wrote:
No, you are very mistaken! Lynn and Sue can speak for themselves. I have always been clear. You have been in a fog, seemingly until now.

It's right here in this example! You overlooked what I actually included and remarked about why I left out the elements and other symbols.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Chart_12


Sorry Patti, so far your arrows did not make sense to me.

By the way, you have not explained your choice to connect the pinky and ring finger with one side of the figure. It appears that you justify this choice based on the fact that both fingers are connected with one palmar quadrant - is this correct?

(However, then why did you not connect the middle finger with index finger? confused ).

And I also wonder about the purple words... how do these exactly relate to the fingers?
Do the words relate to both fingers where you put them in between?

By the way, when I look at the purple words between the ring and little finger and the thumb:

"Outward manifestation of results from having taken inward the outer world"

thinking ... 'outward manifestation'... 'taken inward the outer world' ... sounds like two opposite processes to me that both get associated with the outer world; however, earlier you described all fingers to represent a part of the Persona (see picture below). confused

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Psyche11


Patti, I do notice that your picture (inside the quote) suggests that the index finger and middle finger are he most introvert fingers... just like I suggested in my picture; but your other picture (below) suggests that the index and middle finger also are connected with your 'air quadrant' which you described as relating more to the outer world.

So basically, I perceive all three picture presenting contradictive keywords regarding how these two finger relate to inner world (inward looking/introversion) and outer world (outward looking/extraversion).

So, yes... I can see come similarties with my description inside of some of your pictures, but those points appear to get contradicted by the other pictures.

confused


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Quadra10

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Post  Lynn on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:37 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

I think this passage shows how thumb & index finger represent active self-assertion - which represents a direct manifestation of the inner world into the outer world.

While the pinky & ring finger are the passive components that relate to how the outer world is absorbed and perceived (where the archetypes of the unconscious - which reside inside the mount of moon - are the necessary structures & tools that are required to understand the outer world in order to make communicate possible).


Exactly what I and Lynn and then Sue (along with other members) have said from the beginning. Too bad you didn't take a look at this book earlier as it seemed to say the same thing in a way that got through to you.

Patti, my words above are consistent with the perceptions that I started sharing in my very first post.

And I think so far you have never described the radial hand to represent more a manifestation of the inner world to the outer world, nor did you describe the ulnar hand to represent more how the outer world is perceived and absorbed.

Nor did Lynn & Sue!

Unbelievable! What's going on here? have we been completely misunderstanding each other all the way thru this discussion? Or have you changed your perceptions Martijn?

Martijn, as I understand it, your words above are NOT consistent with the perceptions that you have shared throughout this discussion. All the way through this discussion you have asserted that the radial side represents the inner world. We have been saying all along that the radial side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer. You have said all the way through that pinky & ring finger are active and now you are agreeing with Ursula von Mangoldt that they are passive.
When I said that ulna side was passive, I think you accused me of violating the yin-yang principles because fire and air fingers are active.

Patti has shown you how she has seen it all the way through but still you are disputing and dismissing her arguments.

Feel free to write your article and claim that was how you saw it all along, but for sure you have changed your understanding & perception throughout this discussion much more than Patti or I have done.













Last edited by Lynn on Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : deleted one sentence.)

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Post  Manfred on Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:19 am

Dear friends,

I'm sorry, Martijn, but my impression here is that you have gallopped intellectually in a dead end.
As I wrote you before, there isn't a German esoteric chirosophy school .

Lynn wrote: "The tumb side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer...." ....and the pinky & ring finger is the passive!
There is not only one German chirologist that say, has said or written the opposite. Only you came to that peculiar conclusion.

Here you'll have a picture from G. Hurlimann: Handlesen, M & T Verlag, St. Gallen, Schweiz, 1996, p. 44.
G. Hurilmann has been a Swiss and the leading German speaking chirologist during the last 30 years. She was one of my chirology teacher and I've got her chirological inheritance before she died in 2011.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Handsc11

I also find the expressions "inner" (what does inner mean?) and "outer" missleading.

May be the information about the German authors was important here, but I will not continue the discussion because I think it was really getting mad.

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Post  Sucom on Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:46 am

The reason I have not been totally involved in this topic is because I have not seen a clear definition of what is meant by the terms 'inner' and 'outer'. I'm tempted to believe that the various arguments for and against where is 'inner' and where is 'outer' can never be resolved without this clear definition.

If one is coming from a perspective that the 'inner' person is the personal ego only and that the personal ego IS the essence, then any discussion coming from this perspective is naturally going to be very different from a discussion which considers the 'inner' person to be a more infinite inner essence projecting itself outwardly as a personal 'ego'.

I think these two aspects are being confused and mixed up in this topic, making it impossible to find a conclusion. There never will be a conclusion while there is no clear definition of what is meant by 'inner' and 'outer' or 'passive' and 'active'.

By the way, Martijn, I do believe I have mentioned some pages back that without a strong thumb, the inner qualities will struggle to project outwardly. As I see it, though, the inner self projects itself outwardly and then reacts to what it perceives. For me it is a circle of the self creating and reacting to an infinite number of possibilities.




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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:16 pm

Hi Sue,
Jung describes the outer self as what isn't 'me'. The inner/outer boundary can be seen as where I end and you begin.
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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:28 pm

I found this fascinating 3D Cube of Space showing life experience multi-dimensionally :

http://www.psyche.com/psyche/cube/cube_metapsychology.html
I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Cube_meta3

and was inspired to attempt one of my own:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Psyche15

This is my first attempt and I'm still tweaking it, but wanted to share the idea.
In this sample I placed the inner on the colored planes and the outer in the white spaces. Outer could also be outside the cube.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:39 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

I think this passage shows how thumb & index finger represent active self-assertion - which represents a direct manifestation of the inner world into the outer world.

While the pinky & ring finger are the passive components that relate to how the outer world is absorbed and perceived (where the archetypes of the unconscious - which reside inside the mount of moon - are the necessary structures & tools that are required to understand the outer world in order to make communicate possible).


Exactly what I and Lynn and then Sue (along with other members) have said from the beginning. Too bad you didn't take a look at this book earlier as it seemed to say the same thing in a way that got through to you.

Patti, my words above are consistent with the perceptions that I started sharing in my very first post.

And I think so far you have never described the radial hand to represent more a manifestation of the inner world to the outer world, nor did you describe the ulnar hand to represent more how the outer world is perceived and absorbed.

Nor did Lynn & Sue!

Unbelievable! What's going on here? have we been completely misunderstanding each other all the way thru this discussion? Or have you changed your perceptions Martijn?

Martijn, as I understand it, your words above are NOT consistent with the perceptions that you have shared throughout this discussion. All the way through this discussion you have asserted that the radial side represents the inner world. We have been saying all along that the radial side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer. You have said all the way through that pinky & ring finger are active and now you are agreeing with Ursula von Mangoldt that they are passive.
When I said that ulna side was passive, I think you accused me of violating the yin-yang principles because fire and air fingers are active.

Patti has shown you how she has seen it all the way through but still you are disputing and dismissing her arguments.

Feel free to write your article and claim that was how you saw it all along, but for sure you have changed your understanding & perception throughout this discussion much more than Patti or I have done.

Hi Lynn,

I am sorry to see how you completely got lost in how I used the term 'self-assertion'. But I can specify why my use of those words is consistent with my earlier posts:

First of all, yes I am aware that you have described that you perceive the thumb to shows how we assert our inner world to the outer world.

This earlier post of yours shows how you used the word 'assert':

Lynn wrote:
Martijn_admin wrote:- index finger = water = more inner
No, because it is on radial side, in conjuction with the thumb it shows how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world.

Your posts shows how you have linked the word 'assert' with your association regarding the thumb (which you describe to represent the ego that puts itself more out in the world). We can observe here that you have linked 'self-assertion' with more outward behavior... because you associate it with putting out the ego into the world.


However, that is not how I perceive 'self-assertion' at all!

Because, I do not perceive 'self-assertion' directly with outward behavior, instead I perceive 'self-assertion' as the conscious presence of a mix including: self-esteem, self-confidence, and self-control.

Yes, self-assertion can indeed become manifest via assertive behavior in social situations - and in that concext the word even became hyped by cognitive behavior therapists!!!

So I think the essence of assertiveness is that it represents a manifestation of balanced self-control based on self-esteem (featured with an awareness of one's own rights + being able to respect the rights of others), and therefore I perceive the components required to act assertive to be seated in the inner world!

And I could describe self-assertive behavior as a typical moment where the inner world (thumb side) gets more directly involved in the communication with the outer world (pinky side).

However, in daily life many people tend to associate the word 'assertiveness' with dominant behavior... but this could actually be described partly as a mis-conception, because dominant behavior can even represent the opposite of assertive self-control.

Thanks for pointing out!

Thanks!


PS. Lynn, I hope you now much better understand what is exactly going on in this discussionI Very Happy


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:52 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

I think this passage shows how thumb & index finger represent active self-assertion - which represents a direct manifestation of the inner world into the outer world.

While the pinky & ring finger are the passive components that relate to how the outer world is absorbed and perceived (where the archetypes of the unconscious - which reside inside the mount of moon - are the necessary structures & tools that are required to understand the outer world in order to make communicate possible).


Exactly what I and Lynn and then Sue (along with other members) have said from the beginning. Too bad you didn't take a look at this book earlier as it seemed to say the same thing in a way that got through to you.

Patti, my words above are consistent with the perceptions that I started sharing in my very first post.

And I think so far you have never described the radial hand to represent more a manifestation of the inner world to the outer world, nor did you describe the ulnar hand to represent more how the outer world is perceived and absorbed.

Nor did Lynn & Sue!

Unbelievable! What's going on here? have we been completely misunderstanding each other all the way thru this discussion? Or have you changed your perceptions Martijn?

Martijn, as I understand it, your words above are NOT consistent with the perceptions that you have shared throughout this discussion. All the way through this discussion you have asserted that the radial side represents the inner world. We have been saying all along that the radial side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer. You have said all the way through that pinky & ring finger are active and now you are agreeing with Ursula von Mangoldt that they are passive.
When I said that ulna side was passive, I think you accused me of violating the yin-yang principles because fire and air fingers are active.

Patti has shown you how she has seen it all the way through but still you are disputing and dismissing her arguments.

Feel free to write your article and claim that was how you saw it all along, but for sure you have changed your understanding & perception throughout this discussion much more than Patti or I have done.

Hi Lynn,

I am sorry to see how you completely got lost in how I used the term 'self-assertion'. But I can specify why my use of those words is consistent with my earlier posts:

First of all, yes I am aware that you have described that you perceive the thumb to shows how we assert our inner world to the outer world.

This earlier post of yours shows how you used the word 'assert':

Lynn wrote:
Martijn_admin wrote:- index finger = water = more inner
No, because it is on radial side, in conjuction with the thumb it shows how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world.

Your posts shows how you have linked the word 'assert' with your association regarding the thumb (which you describe to represent the ego that puts itself more out in the world). We can observe here that you have linked 'self-assertion' with more outward behavior... because you associate it with putting out the ego into the world.


However, that is not how I perceive 'self-assertion' at all!

Because, I do not perceive 'self-assertion' directly with outward behavior, instead I perceive 'self-assertion' as the conscious presence of a mix including: self-esteem, self-confidence, and self-control.

Yes, self-assertion can indeed become manifest via assertive behavior in social situations - and in that concext the word even became hyped by cognitive behavior therapists!!!

So I think the essence of assertiveness is that it represents an act of self-control based on self-esteem, and therefore I perceive the components required to act assertive to be seated in the inner world!

And I could describe self-assertive behavior as a typical moment where the inner world (thumb side) gets more directly involved in the communication with the outer world (pinky side).

However, in daily life many people tend to associate the word 'assertiveness' with dominant behavior... but this could actually be described partly as a mis-conception, because dominant behavior can even represent the opposite of assertive self-control.

Thanks for pointing out!

Thanks!


PS. Lynn, I hope you now much better understand what is exactly going on in this discussionI Very Happy

Martijn, have you ever heard of the phrase "When you're in a hole, stop digging!"?



Are you now trying to create a new definition for the term 'self-assertion? As if it were non-assertion? Oh...nooo!

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Digging-Hole001


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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:57 pm

http://oavi.pages.tcnj.edu/tools-for-everyone/assertiveness/assertive-nonassertive-and-aggressive-behaviors/

ASSERTIVE BEHAVIOR
Characteristics of assertive behavior include expressing your feelings, needs, ideas, and rights in ways that don’t violate the rights of others. Assertive behavior is usually honest, direct, expressive, spontaneous, and self-enhancing. Assertive persons make their own choices, are confident, and feel good about themselves while being assertive and afterward. They usually achieve their goals; when they don’t, they still feel good about themselves because they know they have been straightforward. Acting assertively reinforces their good feelings about themselves, improves self-confidence, and creates free, honest, and open relationships with others.
NONASSERTIVE BEHAVIOR (sometimes called “Passive Behavior”)
Characteristics of nonassertive behavior include not expressing feelings, needs, and ideas; ignoring personal rights; and allowing others to infringe upon them. Nonassertive behavior is usually emotionally dishonest, indirect, inhibited, and self-denying. Nonassertive persons often let other people choose for them and end up feeling disappointed in themselves and angry with them; at best, they can be described as passive, at worst as a doormat. People often choose nonassertive behavior to avoid unpleasant situations, tension, conflict, and confrontation.
AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR
Characteristics of aggressive behavior include expressing your feelings, needs, and ideas at the expense of others. Aggressive persons stand up for their rights, but ignore the rights of others; they may dominate or humiliate other people. While this behavior is expressive, it is also defensive, hostile, and self-defeating.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:58 pm

Manfred wrote:Dear friends,

I'm sorry, Martijn, but my impression here is that you have gallopped intellectually in a dead end.
As I wrote you before, there isn't a German esoteric chirosophy school .

Lynn wrote: "The tumb side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer...." ....and the pinky & ring finger is the passive!
There is not only one German chirologist that say, has said or written the opposite. Only you came to that peculiar conclusion.

Here you'll have a picture from G. Hurlimann: Handlesen, M & T Verlag, St. Gallen, Schweiz, 1996, p. 44.
G. Hurilmann has been a Swiss and the leading German speaking chirologist during the last 30 years. She was one of my chirology teacher and I've got her chirological inheritance before she died in 2011.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Handsc11

I also find the expressions "inner" (what does inner mean?) and "outer" missleading.

May be the information about the German authors was important here, but I will not continue the discussion because I think it was really getting mad.

Regards
Manfred

Hi Manfred,

In your comment you've pointed out that you perceive the words 'inner' and 'outer' sort of as problematic; I think this may very well illustrate the nature of the struggle between the various participants in this discussion.

First all all, Manfred, I only used von Mangoldt's work regarding the element where she describes how the theme 'Ich vs Dich' is connected with the polarity: inner vs. outer world!

Second, sorry Manfred... I perceive your first words merely as a rather superficial judgement that appears to be based on Lynn's moment of 'unbelief'; in my previous post I have explained to Lynn why she probably misunderstood my use of the word 'self-assertion' - which I perceive as a manifestation of balanced self-control based on self-esteem).


Regarding Hürlimann's picture, for sure... things are not as simply as suggested by the picture (nor what is suggested by von Mangoldt's guideline); I can illustrate this regarding all 3 polarities described in Hürlimann's picture:

1 - Weiblich (female) vs Männlich (male)

Hürlimann & von Mangoldt suggest that the radial side is the male-side and the ulnar side is the female-side. But what does this really mean?

However, nearly all 2D:4D digit ratio studies around the world have pointed out that in women the index finger on the radial side tends to be longer (relative to the ring finger) than the ring finger. And likewise patterns are seen regarding the thumb (= longer in women) and the pinky (= longer in men)!

So... finger lengths patterns clearly contradict this rather simple idea (radial = male-side and ulnar = female side).... because the finger length patterns in males and women actually indicate that the reversed principle could very well come closer to the truth!

2 - Passiv (passive) vs. Aktiv (active):

And regarding the active vs. passive polarity, I have actually already described why things are also much more complicated here as well. The 2 pictures which I have presented in the other thumb-related topic illustrate why I perceive that a quadrant-like approach is much more realistic than any vertical- or horizontal approach... because I observe that the upper radial quadrant is actually more active than the lower radial quadrant in both the motoric and the elemental perspective, see:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Yin-ya16

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Hand-m10

3 - Du (you) vs. Ich (I):

I perceive no major problems regarding this polarity. In the field of hand reading the thumb and index finger are often associated with 'ego' & 'self' - which I have refered to in my introduction post.


By the way, earlier in this discussion I have pointed out why I consider the use of the vertical dimensions and horizontal dimensions as problematic... so my reference to von Mangoldt's work should not be perceived as that I can support the use of all key-words regarding the vertical dimension - because I perceive that a quadrant-like approach is necessary.



PS. I hope you did not take my reference to the German esoteric chirosophy school too literally. Because I was only described it to represent a current in the German field of hand reading (I was not using the world 'school' as a place where one go to in order to learn the teachings).

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:20 pm

Patti wrote:

Martijn, have you ever heard of the phrase "When you're in a hole, stop digging!"?

Are you now trying to create a new definition for the term 'self-assertion? As if it were non-assertion? Oh...nooo!

No Patti, of course not. I have not suggested that 'self-assertion' is non-assertive, I only have attempted to describe the essence of 'self-assertion'... and how it represents the inner component of assertive behavior!

I could say that the pinky is required for the act of connection & speaking out the linguistic content of the communication itself, but the thumb is required to make the communication assertive!


(I have underlined various elements which I perceive to represent the key-elements inside this wikipedia definition)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness

"Assertiveness is a particular mode of communication.

Dorland's Medical Dictionary defines assertiveness as: a form of behavior characterized by a confident declaration or affirmation of a statement without need of proof; this affirms the person's rights or point of view without either aggressively threatening the rights of another (assuming a position of dominance) or submissively permitting another to ignore or deny one's rights or point of view"



PS. Your post is entirely suggestive by nature, because you did not even try to describe why you perceive my post as some kind of an attempt to re-define the word 'self-assertion'!

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Post  Patti on Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:26 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:



PS. I hope you did not take my reference to the German esoteric chirosophy school too literally. Because I was only described it to represent a current in the German field of hand reading (I was not using the world 'school' as a place where one go to in order to learn the teachings).[/color]

You seem to think we are all fools here and have no clue of what you mean by the words you use. Perhaps you should have made yourself clear and given a proper definition for your vocabulary during the discussion, rather than at this point in time where you've found yourself in an embarrassing situation and trying to make us look stupid!!

I see your outer expression of your inner self as the Trickster!

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 32 Fox_by_skia-d4qxdro
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