I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

Martijn, have you ever heard of the phrase "When you're in a hole, stop digging!"?

Are you now trying to create a new definition for the term 'self-assertion? As if it were non-assertion?

No Patti, of course not. I have not suggested that 'self-assertion' is non-assertive, I only have attempted to describe the essence of 'self-assertion'... and how it represents the inner component of assertive behavior!

I could say that the pinky is required for the act of connection & speaking out the linguistic content of the communication itself, but the thumb is required to make the communication assertive!


(I have underlined various elements which I perceive to represent the key-elements inside this wikipedia definition)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness

"Assertiveness is a particular mode of communication.

Dorland's Medical Dictionary defines assertiveness as: a form of behavior characterized by a confident declaration or affirmation of a statement without need of proof; this affirms the person's rights or point of view without either aggressively threatening the rights of another (assuming a position of dominance) or submissively permitting another to ignore or deny one's rights or point of view"


PS. Your post is entirely suggestive by nature, because you did not even try to describe why you perceive my post as some kind of an attempt to re-define the word 'self-assertion'!

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

Martijn, have you ever heard of the phrase "When you're in a hole, stop digging!"?

Are you now trying to create a new definition for the term 'self-assertion? As if it were non-assertion?

No Patti, of course not. I have not suggested that 'self-assertion' is non-assertive, I only have attempted to describe the essence of 'self-assertion'... and how it represents the inner component of assertive behavior!

I could say that the pinky is required for the act of connection & speaking out the linguistic content of the communication itself, but the thumb is required to make the communication assertive!


(I have underlined various elements which I perceive to represent the key-elements inside this wikipedia definition)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness

"Assertiveness is a particular mode of communication.

Dorland's Medical Dictionary defines assertiveness as: a form of behavior characterized by a confident declaration or affirmation of a statement without need of proof; this affirms the person's rights or point of view without either aggressively threatening the rights of another (assuming a position of dominance) or submissively permitting another to ignore or deny one's rights or point of view"


PS. Your post is entirely suggestive by nature, because you did not even try to describe why you perceive my post as some kind of an attempt to re-define the word 'self-assertion'!

Sucom wrote:The reason I have not been totally involved in this topic is because I have not seen a clear definition of what is meant by the terms 'inner' and 'outer'. I'm tempted to believe that the various arguments for and against where is 'inner' and where is 'outer' can never be resolved without this clear definition.

If one is coming from a perspective that the 'inner' person is the personal ego only and that the personal ego IS the essence, then any discussion coming from this perspective is naturally going to be very different from a discussion which considers the 'inner' person to be a more infinite inner essence projecting itself outwardly as a personal 'ego'.

I think these two aspects are being confused and mixed up in this topic, making it impossible to find a conclusion. There never will be a conclusion while there is no clear definition of what is meant by 'inner' and 'outer' or 'passive' and 'active'.

By the way, Martijn, I do believe I have mentioned some pages back that without a strong thumb, the inner qualities will struggle to project outwardly. As I see it, though, the inner self projects itself outwardly and then reacts to what it perceives. For me it is a circle of the self creating and reacting to an infinite number of possibilities.

Good point Sue!

In my own perspective I associate 'inner world' first of all with the intra-personal world (= world inside the person) - which is focussed on the person's thoughts, emotions & desires; however, I also recognize how some part of the 'inner world' is consumed by the so-called private-world - which by principle can be described as family-related matters (because in most people a large part of the thoughts & emotions get absorbed by family related matters due to the biological & home related connections).

And I associatiate 'the outer world' first of all with the inter-personal world (= world between persons) + activities in the so-called public-world (+ the unfamiliar/unknown worldly matters).


PS. I could that introverted people are more oriented on the intra-personal world & the private world (+ less interest in the inter-personal & public world); while extraverted people show the opposite tendency.


EDIT (one day later): I have just found the picture below... which probably presents a better perspective than what I described above; in the following post I have connected the 4 dimensions described in this picture with the hand, see:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p810-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#26829

Patti wrote:http://oavi.pages.tcnj.edu/tools-for-everyone/assertiveness/assertive-nonassertive-and-aggressive-behaviors/

ASSERTIVE BEHAVIOR
Characteristics of assertive behavior include expressing your feelings, needs, ideas, and rights in ways that don’t violate the rights of others. Assertive behavior is usually honest, direct, expressive, spontaneous, and self-enhancing. Assertive persons make their own choices, are confident, and feel good about themselves while being assertive and afterward. They usually achieve their goals; when they don’t, they still feel good about themselves because they know they have been straightforward. Acting assertively reinforces their good feelings about themselves, improves self-confidence, and creates free, honest, and open relationships with others.
NONASSERTIVE BEHAVIOR (sometimes called “Passive Behavior”)
Characteristics of nonassertive behavior include not expressing feelings, needs, and ideas; ignoring personal rights; and allowing others to infringe upon them. Nonassertive behavior is usually emotionally dishonest, indirect, inhibited, and self-denying. Nonassertive persons often let other people choose for them and end up feeling disappointed in themselves and angry with them; at best, they can be described as passive, at worst as a doormat. People often choose nonassertive behavior to avoid unpleasant situations, tension, conflict, and confrontation.
AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR
Characteristics of aggressive behavior include expressing your feelings, needs, and ideas at the expense of others. Aggressive persons stand up for their rights, but ignore the rights of others; they may dominate or humiliate other people. While this behavior is expressive, it is also defensive, hostile, and self-defeating.

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

Martijn, have you ever heard of the phrase "When you're in a hole, stop digging!"?

Are you now trying to create a new definition for the term 'self-assertion? As if it were non-assertion?

No Patti, of course not. I have not suggested that 'self-assertion' is non-assertive, I only have attempted to describe the essence of 'self-assertion'... and how it represents the inner component of assertive behavior!

I could say that the pinky is required for the act of connection & speaking out the linguistic content of the communication itself, but the thumb is required to make the communication assertive!


(I have underlined various elements which I perceive to represent the key-elements inside this wikipedia definition)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness

"Assertiveness is a particular mode of communication.

Dorland's Medical Dictionary defines assertiveness as: a form of behavior characterized by a confident declaration or affirmation of a statement without need of proof; this affirms the person's rights or point of view without either aggressively threatening the rights of another (assuming a position of dominance) or submissively permitting another to ignore or deny one's rights or point of view"


PS. Your post is entirely suggestive by nature, because you did not even try to describe why you perceive my post as some kind of an attempt to re-define the word 'self-assertion'!

This description describes self-assertive as active outer energy. See green words. You are being self-assertive now in trying to defend yourself. (although somewhat on the aggressive side)

Lynn wrote:...

Feel free to write your article and claim that was how you saw it all along, but for sure you have changed your understanding & perception throughout this discussion much more than Patti or I have done.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Lynn wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Lynn wrote:I have just replied on the other thread. I also agree with Gettings that the thumb represents how we put our inner self out into the external world.

Lynn, I find your word choice very interesting here!
Did you have any specific passage from Gettings work in mind when you wrote this? If yes, can you please present a quote from his work?


PS. In my view, I could say that the thumb represents inner qualities that make it possible to put our inner self out into the external world. But the thumb can not do this by itself: the thumb needs to fingers to do this!

(And therefore I conser the fingers as more outward directed than the thumb itself!)

Actually I notice I used the same words as Patti. Really this is the subject of the other thread about the thumb, but as you asked here I will reply here.

There are several quotes I could take from Gettings, here are 3:

“It is hardly surprising that the thumb, so intimately connected with the externals of our life, should represent that quality and quantity of energy which we divert towards that life.”

“The nail phalange, which is traditionally linked to the willpower of the individual, reveals the quantity of energy at his disposal and the manner in which this energy is directed towards the external world.”

“A strong nail phalange indicates a good clear passage of energy towards external life…..”

Okay, thanks Lynn.

I observe that in these quotes Gettings does not refer anyhow to the inner world. But I want you to know that I very much like your words describing how the thumb relates to how we put our 'inner self' out in the "outer world".

Maybe the difference between my view and your view is that you perceive the thumb doing this directly, while I perceive the thumb doing this via the other fingers.

Lynn wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote: So, at the end... maybe what is missing in our discussion so far is a proper analysis of why the palm became associated with the 'body' and the fingers with the 'mind'...??
Because at first sight it would make much more sense to simply assume that the (mental) 'mind' SHOULD require to relate to our 'inner world' only... and not to the outer world! Correct???

Martijn, I already explained.
"There are lots of different ways of looking at the zones and divisions of the hand......
everything can be subdivided, and subdivided again and again.....

Hand shape -
Palm vs fingers - the fingers represent the mind, the palm represents the body. They reflect the general mind/body balance of a person. (this can be used at first glance on looking at a hand)
Fingers predominate = Long fingers (air and water hands) the mind predominates over the body. ie mental activities are most important, inner world is more dominant over the physical, active world. .
Palm predominates = Short fingers (earth and fire hands) the body predominates over the mind. (ie physical activities ‘doing’ predominates over ‘thinking’)"

However, if fingers & thumb would get associated with 'outer world'... this would create a contradiction with the idea that the fingers represent the 'mind'.
I suggested " the palm represents the inner world and .the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world." not the outer world itself. A vehicle to connect with the outer world.

Patti wrote:Martijn I think you are seriously confusing and misusing the word assertive in combination with self-assertive to describe the qualities of repression and suppression. When one maintains or holds themselves back with some kind of discipline and restraint, the energy is pulling inwards.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

Martijn, have you ever heard of the phrase "When you're in a hole, stop digging!"?

Are you now trying to create a new definition for the term 'self-assertion? As if it were non-assertion?

No Patti, of course not. I have not suggested that 'self-assertion' is non-assertive, I only have attempted to describe the essence of 'self-assertion'... and how it represents the inner component of assertive behavior!

I could say that the pinky is required for the act of connection & speaking out the linguistic content of the communication itself, but the thumb is required to make the communication assertive!


(I have underlined various elements which I perceive to represent the key-elements inside this wikipedia definition)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness

"Assertiveness is a particular mode of communication.

Dorland's Medical Dictionary defines assertiveness as: a form of behavior characterized by a confident declaration or affirmation of a statement without need of proof; this affirms the person's rights or point of view without either aggressively threatening the rights of another (assuming a position of dominance) or submissively permitting another to ignore or deny one's rights or point of view"


PS. Your post is entirely suggestive by nature, because you did not even try to describe why you perceive my post as some kind of an attempt to re-define the word 'self-assertion'!

This description describes self-assertive as active outer energy. See green words. You are being self-assertive now in trying to defend yourself. (although somewhat on the aggressive side)

Patti, again, the term 'self-assertive' (= adjective) is not entirely the same as the 'assertiveness' (= noun).

The origins of the word assertiveness go back to the work Joseph Wolpe (a behavior therapist) who developed the concept of assertiveness as a strategy to cope with post-traumatic stress for soldiers.

This is how in the 60's assertiveness became a tool to deal with anxiety (via "reciprocal inhibition").

Only much later the word also became a theme in popular psychology when it also became recognize as a behavior skill suitable to deal with less stressfull situations in daily life (compared to the stress that soldiers are confronted with).


By the way, regarding my term 'self-assertive': assertive is an adjective = a describing word.

And regarding the Etymology of the word 'assert':

"From Latin assertus, perfect passive participle of asserō ("declare someone free or a slave by laying hands upon him; hence free from, protect, defend; lay claim to, assert, declare"), from ad ("to") + serō ("join, range in a row")."

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/assert


In a way one can describe assertive behavior as a cognitive-behavior strategy to avoid that one becomes the victim of anxiety (which by nature results in passive behavior).

So in essence any attempt to behave assertive can be deduced to a cognitive-behavior attempt to create more balance between inner and outer world... and my use of the term 'self-assertive' directly relates to the cognitive component in this matter only.

I don't think that I can explain much more how I used the term 'self-assertive'.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

By the way, regarding my term 'self-assertive': assertive is an adjective = a describing word.

And regarding the Etymology of the word 'assert':

"From Latin assertus, perfect passive participle of asserō ("declare someone free or a slave by laying hands upon him; hence free from, protect, defend; lay claim to, assert, declare"), from ad ("to") + serō ("join, range in a row")."

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/assert


In a way one can describe assertive behavior as a cognitive-behavior strategy to avoid that one becomes the victim of anxiety (which by nature results in passive behavior).

So in essence any attempt to behave assertive can be deduced to a cognitive-behavior attempt to create more balance between inner and outer world... and my use of the term 'self-assertive' directly relates to the cognitive component in this matter only.

I don't think that I can explain much more how I used the term 'self-assertive'.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Second, sorry Manfred... I perceive your first words merely as a rather superficial judgement that appears to be based on Lynn's moment of 'unbelief'; in my previous post I have explained to Lynn why she probably misunderstood my use of the word 'self-assertion' - which I perceive as a manifestation of balanced self-control based on self-esteem).

Martijn (admin) wrote:
...

So, I could specify that both sides of the hand play a role in how the mind works and how we relate to the outer world. The thumb & index finger show more of how the inner world (in terms of drives, needs & desires) becomes manifest in the outer world, and the pinky and ring finger show more how we perceive & communicate with the outer world in order to absorb it into the inner world... in order to individualize ourselves.

This probably explains why long thumbs (which can be the result of high set thumbs) and long index fingers (relative to ring finger length) are more often seen in people who are more introverted. And long fingered people (who have long middle fingers) show this tendency towards introversion as well.

...

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:





The above implicates that in a neutral vocabulary (not associated with a specific religion nor a specific philosophy) one might say that in the field of hand reading the thumb can be said to represent the 'core-identity' of a person.

I hope this makes sense?

So, far it appears the main support used for this new idea is from selected philosophies and palmistry systems.

Lynn wrote:

Martijn, I am interested to know more about your labellings of the fingers & their identities. eg I think of middle finger more as cultural identity, how we fit into our environment, rather than being self-identity which I associate more with index finger. You label index as 'ego identity' - ego is the self so how do you differentiate ego identity from self identity? Also I don't know what affective identity means.

I am really confused about your labelling of ulna - outer world = subconscious and radial - inner world = conscious. The thumb being associated with the inner world is new to me. (apart from it being a means to express our inner world to the outside world).

Same questions as Lynn in this first paragraph.

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, I think this article presents a very interesting summary of a lecture describing why 'earth' (= material realities in the picture at the bottom of this post) is recognized as Yin and acting inward as a world of phenomena (which explains why earth is associated with Yin and should not be associated with 'more outward')

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Lynn, I think this article presents a very interesting summary of a lecture describing why 'earth' (= material realities in the picture at the bottom of this post) is recognized as Yin and acting inward as a world of phenomena (which explains why earth is associated with Yin and should not be associated with 'more outward'):
http://martyrion.blogspot.nl/2010/10/nature-of-inner-world-and-of-outer.html


And therefore the 'spiritual appearances' related to earth and water became associated with going inside (Yin), while the 'spiritual realities' related to fire and air got associated with going outside (Yang) - see the picture above.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

The example of a rainbow is a beautiful illustration of how the material worlds directly works inside us: because a rainbow does not really exist as a material substance... but the beauty of a rainbow can 'impress' us anyway!

His previous term was at the time of the Greek philosophers, when people first developed intellectual, analytical consciousness. Before this the highest form of consciousness was feelings. The Greek philosophers used thinking exclusively to understand the spiritual world. A review of their works will substantiate this. Not until Aristotle was thinking used to understand the physical world.

Michael's turn ended at the time of Aristotle. After Aristotle, until Michael’s next turn, consciousness would be limited to the physical world....Humanity had a hard time disassociating from the spiritual world but it was imperative that they do so in order to develop individual egos....Once individuality was established the next step would be to unite the bits and pieces of the physical world, which is really a return to the oneness of the spiritual world.

"Today, the “how” matters more than the “what. Everything depends an our acquiring thought forms that are suitable tools for the comprehension of the spiritual life, for in reality spiritual life is everywhere. We have spiritual realities here in our surroundings as well as from beyond the sense world. It is out of these spiritual realities that social reconstruction must come about, not out of the empty talk appearing in Leninism and Trotskyism, which is nothing but the squeezed-out lemon of old commonplace Western views that have no power to produce any viable kind of social idea."

while tangibility directly relates to our ability to touch- and to manipulate things on a physical dimension

it also relates to the feature of a property to stick together

a rainbow does not really exist as a material substance

Martijn, why have you brought Rudolf Steiner's philosophy into this topic?

Lynn, if ether can only be studied via the other 4 elements... this actually confirms that it can not be studied directly, and since ether can not be studied directly one can by principle also never validate or test any theory about how ether can be recognized via the hand, etc.... and therefore it is a philosphical excersice only!

learner wrote:Hi Ms. Lynn,

I'd like to suggest a remedy for your computer reboots.
Type out your posts in a word processing software such as MS Word. Save it after every 2 or 3 sentences. Once your thoughts are on paper, just copy & paste into this forum.
This way, you will not have to rewrite the whole thing again.

Martijn (admin) wrote:Ahaaa....!


Maybe this picture provides an interesting perspective to put the 4 quadrants of the hand in a perspective. In this perspective I would prefer to make the following connections:

- upper radial quadrant = Ego structure (= inner world)
- lower radial quadrant = family system (= outer world)
- lower ulnar quadrant = psychobiological personality* (= inner world)
- upper ulnar quadrant = cultural & proximal systems* (= outer world)

lower radial quadrant = family system (= outer world)

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Lynn wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:

I think this passage shows how thumb & index finger represent active self-assertion - which represents a direct manifestation of the inner world into the outer world.

While the pinky & ring finger are the passive components that relate to how the outer world is absorbed and perceived (where the archetypes of the unconscious - which reside inside the mount of moon - are the necessary structures & tools that are required to understand the outer world in order to make communicate possible).

Exactly what I and Lynn and then Sue (along with other members) have said from the beginning. Too bad you didn't take a look at this book earlier as it seemed to say the same thing in a way that got through to you.

Patti, my words above are consistent with the perceptions that I started sharing in my very first post.

And I think so far you have never described the radial hand to represent more a manifestation of the inner world to the outer world, nor did you describe the ulnar hand to represent more how the outer world is perceived and absorbed.

Nor did Lynn & Sue!

Unbelievable! What's going on here? have we been completely misunderstanding each other all the way thru this discussion? Or have you changed your perceptions Martijn?

Martijn, as I understand it, your words above are NOT consistent with the perceptions that you have shared throughout this discussion. All the way through this discussion you have asserted that the radial side represents the inner world. We have been saying all along that the radial side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer. You have said all the way through that pinky & ring finger are active and now you are agreeing with Ursula von Mangoldt that they are passive.
When I said that ulna side was passive, I think you accused me of violating the yin-yang principles because fire and air fingers are active.

Patti has shown you how she has seen it all the way through but still you are disputing and dismissing her arguments.

Feel free to write your article and claim that was how you saw it all along, but for sure you have changed your understanding & perception throughout this discussion much more than Patti or I have done.

Hi Lynn,

I am sorry to see how you completely got lost in how I used the term 'self-assertion'. But I can specify why my use of those words is consistent with my earlier posts:

First of all, yes I am aware that you have described that you perceive the thumb to shows how we assert our inner world to the outer world.

This earlier post of yours shows how you used the word 'assert':

Lynn wrote:

Martijn_admin wrote:- index finger = water = more inner

No, because it is on radial side, in conjuction with the thumb it shows how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world.

Your posts shows how you have linked the word 'assert' with your association regarding the thumb (which you describe to represent the ego that puts itself more out in the world). We can observe here that you have linked 'self-assertion' with more outward behavior... because you associate it with putting out the ego into the world.


However, that is not how I perceive 'self-assertion' at all!

Because, I do not perceive 'self-assertion' directly with outward behavior, instead I perceive 'self-assertion' as the conscious presence of a mix including: self-esteem, self-confidence, and self-control.

Yes, self-assertion can indeed become manifest via assertive behavior in social situations - and in that concext the word even became hyped by cognitive behavior therapists!!!

So I think the essence of assertiveness is that it represents a manifestation of balanced self-control based on self-esteem (featured with an awareness of one's own rights + being able to respect the rights of others), and therefore I perceive the components required to act assertive to be seated in the inner world!

And I could describe self-assertive behavior as a typical moment where the inner world (thumb side) gets more directly involved in the communication with the outer world (pinky side).

However, in daily life many people tend to associate the word 'assertiveness' with dominant behavior... but this could actually be described partly as a mis-conception, because dominant behavior can even represent the opposite of assertive self-control.

Thanks for pointing out!




PS. Lynn, I hope you now much better understand what is exactly going on in this discussionI

We can observe here that you have linked 'self-assertion' with more outward behavior... because you associate it with putting out the ego into the world.
However, that is not how I perceive 'self-assertion' at all!
Because, I do not perceive 'self-assertion' directly with outward behavior,

And I could describe self-assertive behavior as a typical moment where the inner world (thumb side) gets more directly involved in the communication with the outer world (pinky side).