I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Manfred wrote:Dear friends,

I'm sorry, Martijn, but my impression here is that you have gallopped intellectually in a dead end.
As I wrote you before, there isn't a German esoteric chirosophy school .

Lynn wrote: "The tumb side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer...." ....and the pinky & ring finger is the passive!
There is not only one German chirologist that say, has said or written the opposite. Only you came to that peculiar conclusion.

Here you'll have a picture from G. Hurlimann: Handlesen, M & T Verlag, St. Gallen, Schweiz, 1996, p. 44.
G. Hurilmann has been a Swiss and the leading German speaking chirologist during the last 30 years. She was one of my chirology teacher and I've got her chirological inheritance before she died in 2011.



I also find the expressions "inner" (what does inner mean?) and "outer" missleading.

May be the information about the German authors was important here, but I will not continue the discussion because I think it was really getting mad.

Regards
Manfred

{quote="Martijn"]Hi Manfred, .....
Second, sorry Manfred... I perceive your first words merely as a rather superficial judgement that appears to be based on Lynn's moment of 'unbelief'; in my previous post I have explained to Lynn why she probably misunderstood my use of the word 'self-assertion' - which I perceive as a manifestation of balanced self-control based on self-esteem).........

Lynn wrote:

You are the only person here arguing that the thumb is the inner person. From your posts it seems that everyone here except you is confused, mistaken, acting from our own associations, making superficial judgements etc.
It seems we are never going to agree on this!
PS I already resigned from this discussion once. Now I am very close to saying a phrase they use on TV programme Dragon's Den. "I'm out" !

Lynn wrote:
.Manfred is not known for superficial judgements. We have known Manfred for a long time and in my opinion Manfred's input is always based on reasoned, educated and experienced judgements.

Lynn wrote:
Martijn, I know Manfred can speak for himself, but I find your above comments completely disrespectful to Manfred and his specialist knowledge. You asked for his input, he gave it, and you tell him he made a superficial judgement based on some misunderstanding of mine! (I don't think I misunderstand what self assertion means but that's beside the point). There seems no reason to think that Manfred's opinion was based on anything that I said.Manfred is not known for superficial judgements. We have known Manfred for a long time and in my opinion Manfred's input is always based on reasoned, educated and experienced judgements.

You have completely ignored Manfred's point that
"Lynn wrote: "The tumb side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer...." ....and the pinky & ring finger is the passive!
There is not only one German chirologist that say, has said or written the opposite. Only you came to that peculiar conclusion."

You are the only person here arguing that the thumb is the inner person. From your posts it seems that everyone here except you is confused, mistaken, acting from our own associations, making superficial judgements etc.

It seems we are never going to agree on this!

PS I already resigned from this discussion once. Now I am very close to saying a phrase they use on TV programme Dragon's Den. "I'm out" !

Lynn, please be aware... even though Manfred said that you wrote: "Lynn wrote: "The tumb side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer....", you actually never wrote those words at all!!!

(I have checked your posts twice!)

Therefore I had to conclude that Manfred directly took those words from your post in response to my post - but you only made that post after I had myself introduced the words "active self-assertion" derived from von Mangoldt's words!!!

So Manfred has sort of presented a quote that was never written!

By the way, Manfred did not say anything specific at all regarding my translation (nor my interpretation) of von Mangoldt's work.

And yes... I invited Manfred to share his ideas about the German's. But he did not present any basis to conclude: "I'm sorry, Martijn, but my impression here is that you have gallopped intellectually in a dead end. As I wrote you before, there isn't a German esoteric chirosophy school."

Because von Mangoldt's writings can be recognized as pure esoterism! And even though Manfred described Mathias Mala's work as irrelevant, the title of one of Mala's book (Esoterisches Handlesen) is clear evidence for the existence of a German esoteric hand reading school - because in his 'Vorwort' he describes that his work is mostlly based on the works of Ursuala von Mangoldt & Karlfried Graf von Dürckheim (who's work as a psychotherapist was higly influenced by Meister Eckhart - one of the most influential 13th-century Christian Neoplatonists, which became very popular in the esoteric movement!).

So, therefore I had to assume that Manfred must have misunderstood the origins of my reference to the German esoteric school!


PS. Lynn, I am aware that HERE you described in this discussion once how you associate the thumb with "how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world". But in your conversation with Sue it became more apparent that your make this connection via the element fire (because the tip of the thumb is fire); and usually you only talked about that you associate the thumb with assering our will into the world.

(In the other topic you also made a reference to Gettings: "I also agree with Gettings that the thumb represents how we put our inner self out into the external world.")

But can I remind you that earlier in this discussion you wrote HERE: "OK Martijn, feel free not to include inner/outer in the labelling of your diagram with regard to your conclusions about 5-element hand analysis."

And please be aware that Patti described: "I is the inner self and you is the outer self only in the sense the I is the 'me' inside the little baby reaching out with it's fisted hand - opening and closing it's fingers with outer world skills saying "me! me! me!""


With this in mind... I think Sue was spot on questioning how to define 'inner' and 'outer', because we never really addressed this. Anyway, yesterday I have adressed in one of my latest posts why 'inner vs. outer' should better not be associated with 'public vs private':
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p810-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#26829

Ssimply because 'family' matters are part of the outer world as well; but ego structure = inner world, and since thumb + index finger are associated with ego & self... the thumb & index finger more represent our inner world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I am perfectly happy with where we arrived in this discussion regarding the content & theoretical issues that we addressed; but I am also aware that my association regarding 'inner = private' and 'outer = public' was actually incorrect... but I have now corrected this myself (see my post yesterday where I presented the picture below).



Anyway, I am sorry to see that people are not able to recognize why I perceive my latests perceptions about the thumb as consistent with my earliest writings in this topic, but I think I have explained this in a a rather simple way in one of my post yesterday:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p810-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#26828

(Though to understand that post fully, one has to be aware that I started this topic by focussing on the thumb... without considering all other radial parts of the hand; and the perspective of the quadrants later made it clear that even when the thumb gets associated with the inner world and the pinky with the outer world... this does not necessary implicate that a likewise approach can be used for the palm as well!)

Martijn (admin) wrote:
(Thoughto understand that post fully, one has to be aware that I started this topic by focussing on the thumb... without considering all other radial parts of the hand; and the perspective of the quadrants later made it clear that even when the thumb gets associated with the inner world and the pinky with the outer world... this does not necessary implicate that a likewise approach can be used for the palm as well!)

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:
(Thoughto understand that post fully, one has to be aware that I started this topic by focussing on the thumb... without considering all other radial parts of the hand; and the perspective of the quadrants later made it clear that even when the thumb gets associated with the inner world and the pinky with the outer world... this does not necessary implicate that a likewise approach can be used for the palm as well!)

PLEASE, ALWAYS KEEP THIS HAND READING RULE (AXIOM) IN MIND:
"Modern Hand Reading is about combining significant hand signs;
any single hand sign has no specific meaning (because any
hand sign may get compensated/neutralized by other hand signs!)"

Patti wrote:
The "anatomical position" is with arms at the sides and palms facing forward and thumbs outward from the body.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:
The "anatomical position" is with arms at the sides and palms facing forward and thumbs outward from the body.

Patti, in the "medical anatomic perspective" the palms are required to be hold forward; but this is just an arbitrary choice. In that specific perspective the thumb must described as the lateral digit of the hand; however, in that perspective one can also see that the little toe represent the later digit of the foot... which illustrates how this medical perspective is nothing more than the result of arbitrary choices!

By the way, this "medical anatomic perspective" plays no role at all in scientific (anatomic) comparisions between hands and feet - where we immedicately see how the thick thumb in the hand represents the thick big toe in the foot (and a likewise comparison can be made regarding the narrow little finger and the narrow little toe).

This also explains why for a 'natural' direct comparison between hand and foot the thumb should always be presented at the same side as the big toe: see for example the pictures below!

(The 'medical anatomical perspective' is only meant to describe the individual features from the frontal side of the body only, so that specific perspective was never meant to start a hand-foot comparsion!!!)

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:
(Thoughto understand that post fully, one has to be aware that I started this topic by focussing on the thumb... without considering all other radial parts of the hand; and the perspective of the quadrants later made it clear that even when the thumb gets associated with the inner world and the pinky with the outer world... this does not necessary implicate that a likewise approach can be used for the palm as well!)

PLEASE, ALWAYS KEEP THIS HAND READING RULE (AXIOM) IN MIND:
"Modern Hand Reading is about combining significant hand signs;
any single hand sign has no specific meaning (because any
hand sign may get compensated/neutralized by other hand signs!)"

Patti, I think you are mixing two completely different perspectives. Because the axiom represents the first rule when putting theory into practice.

However, this topic is focussed on the theory itself, and therefore in my view the axiom should have no role at all in this discussion.

Martijn (admin) wrote:


PS. Lynn, I am aware that HERE you described in this discussion once how you associate the thumb with "how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world". But in your conversation with Sue it became more apparent that your make this connection via the element fire (because the tip of the thumb is fire); and usually you only talked about that you associate the thumb with assering our will into the world.


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Martijn (admin) wrote:
One more quote from the work of Ursula von Mangoldt:

In 'Schicksal in der Hand' does she start her chapter about the pinky (mercury) & ring finger (apollo) with the following words (p.62):

"Sind Daumen und Zeigefinger typische Exponenten der aktiven Ichbehauptung und Eigenwelt, so werden Merkur- und Apollofinger zum Ausdruck der Sehnsucht, die zum Du, zum Umwelt führt und nicht mehr sich selbst im Aussen dar zu zellen, sondern das Aussen passiv in sich aufzunehmen sucht."

[Translated: Thumb and index finger are typical exponents of the active self-assertion and ones own world, Mercury and Apollo fingers express the longing, that leads to the You, the environment and and not to represent themselves in the outside, but to absorb the environment passively.]


I think this passage shows how thumb & index finger represent active self-assertion - which represents a direct manifestation of the inner world into the outer world.

While the pinky & ring finger are the passive components that relate to how the outer world is absorbed and perceived (where the archetypes of the unconscious - which reside inside the mount of moon - are the necessary structures & tools that are required to understand the outer world in order to make communicate possible).

So, I could specify that both sides of the hand play a role in how the mind works and how we relate to the outer world. The thumb & index finger show more of how the inner world (in terms of drives, needs & desires) becomes manifest in the outer world, and the pinky and ring finger show more how we perceive & communicate with the outer world in order to absorb it into the inner world... in order to individualize ourselves.

This probably explains why long thumbs (which can be the result of high set thumbs) and long index fingers (relative to ring finger length) are more often seen in people who are more introverted. And long fingered people (who have long middle fingers) show this tendency towards introversion as well.
...

There is no inner without outer. Inner and outer is in both sides of hands, sides of body and the universe. It is always the yin/yang balance of both always at the same time - ever in motion.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Lynn wrote:
Martijn, I know Manfred can speak for himself, but I find your above comments completely disrespectful to Manfred and his specialist knowledge. You asked for his input, he gave it, and you tell him he made a superficial judgement based on some misunderstanding of mine! (I don't think I misunderstand what self assertion means but that's beside the point). There seems no reason to think that Manfred's opinion was based on anything that I said.Manfred is not known for superficial judgements. We have known Manfred for a long time and in my opinion Manfred's input is always based on reasoned, educated and experienced judgements.

You have completely ignored Manfred's point that
"Lynn wrote: "The tumb side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer...." ....and the pinky & ring finger is the passive!
There is not only one German chirologist that say, has said or written the opposite. Only you came to that peculiar conclusion."

You are the only person here arguing that the thumb is the inner person. From your posts it seems that everyone here except you is confused, mistaken, acting from our own associations, making superficial judgements etc.

It seems we are never going to agree on this!

PS I already resigned from this discussion once. Now I am very close to saying a phrase they use on TV programme Dragon's Den. "I'm out" !

Lynn, please be aware... even though Manfred said that you wrote: "Lynn wrote: "The tumb side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer....", you actually never wrote those words at all!!!

(I have checked your posts twice!)

Therefore I had to conclude that Manfred directly took those words from your post in response to my post - but you only made that post after I had myself introduced the words "active self-assertion" derived from von Mangoldt's words!!!

So Manfred has sort of presented a quote that was never written!

By the way, Manfred did not say anything specific at all regarding my translation (nor my interpretation) of von Mangoldt's work.

And yes... I invited Manfred to share his ideas about the German's. But he did not present any basis to conclude: "I'm sorry, Martijn, but my impression here is that you have gallopped intellectually in a dead end.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:
One more quote from the work of Ursula von Mangoldt:

In 'Schicksal in der Hand' does she start her chapter about the pinky (mercury) & ring finger (apollo) with the following words (p.62):

"Sind Daumen und Zeigefinger typische Exponenten der aktiven Ichbehauptung und Eigenwelt, so werden Merkur- und Apollofinger zum Ausdruck der Sehnsucht, die zum Du, zum Umwelt führt und nicht mehr sich selbst im Aussen dar zu zellen, sondern das Aussen passiv in sich aufzunehmen sucht."

[Translated: Thumb and index finger are typical exponents of the active self-assertion and ones own world, Mercury and Apollo fingers express the longing, that leads to the You, the environment and and not to represent themselves in the outside, but to absorb the environment passively.]


I think this passage shows how thumb & index finger represent active self-assertion - which represents a direct manifestation of the inner world into the outer world.

While the pinky & ring finger are the passive components that relate to how the outer world is absorbed and perceived (where the archetypes of the unconscious - which reside inside the mount of moon - are the necessary structures & tools that are required to understand the outer world in order to make communicate possible).

So, I could specify that both sides of the hand play a role in how the mind works and how we relate to the outer world. The thumb & index finger show more of how the inner world (in terms of drives, needs & desires) becomes manifest in the outer world, and the pinky and ring finger show more how we perceive & communicate with the outer world in order to absorb it into the inner world... in order to individualize ourselves.

This probably explains why long thumbs (which can be the result of high set thumbs) and long index fingers (relative to ring finger length) are more often seen in people who are more introverted. And long fingered people (who have long middle fingers) show this tendency towards introversion as well.
...

I could also put it like this:

The anatomic structure of thumb is in many regards different from the other fingers, because the thumb has only 2 external phalanges which are positioned more proximal & located more inward compared the fingers (NOTICE: the big toe of the foot is also located more inward than the other toes!); and the thumb is also broader, shorter than the other digits.

Therefore the structure of the thumb can be associated with the inner world; because the thumb's structure is less differentiated than the other digits - which is a typical 'Yin/Ida' characteristic.


However... the surrounding muscles around the thumb phalanges are actually most differentiated compared to the other aspects of the hand, and these are responsible for that the thumb can also be recognized to represent belonging to the most active aspects of the hand (though the index finger is even more active digit). But it is important here to notice that this activity nearly always requires to get some of the other fingers involved as well.

Therefore the thumb motorics can be associated with how the inner world becomes manifest in the outer world; because the unique 'oppossable' thumb can use it's advanced muscles system to cooperate with the other digits to put out it's will (spirit) - which is a typical 'Yang/Pingala' characteristic!


So, one could say that the thumb's structure = Yin and the thumb's musculature = Yang; and both aspects together are symbol for how the thumb represents the inner world... that is putten outside via it's motorics + the assistance of the other fingers!

Now, anyone is welcome to call me a fool... but I think I have now explained by details why in my perception I have never left the position that the thumb by principle represents the inner world only. But on top of this basic position I could specify that the thumb's motorics much more show how this inner world is putten outside... but we have not talked much about the motorics of the thumb in specific at all.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Now, anyone is welcome to call me a fool... but I think I have now explained by details why in my perception I have never left the position that the thumb by principle represents the inner world only. But on top of this basic position I could specify that the thumb's motorics much more show how this inner world is putten outside... but we have not talked much about the motorics of the thumb in specific at all.

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:


PS. Lynn, I am aware that HERE you described in this discussion once how you associate the thumb with "how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world". But in your conversation with Sue it became more apparent that your make this connection via the element fire (because the tip of the thumb is fire); and usually you only talked about that you associate the thumb with assering our will into the world.


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This is nothing but word games Martijn! This is a discussion and no one wrote a thesis and presented. It's conversation that ran in a thread one person's comment bringing out another person's response. You shouldn't take words like this out of their context and flow and use them to justify that Lynn wasn't exactly as precise in her description as you would have liked her to have been. Word games!

Lynn wrote:...

I am really confused about your labelling of ulna - outer world = subconscious and radial - inner world = conscious. The thumb being associated with the inner world is new to me. (apart from it being a means to express our inner world to the outside world).

I know there's an old saying "The eyes are a window to the soul". I can't remember who first said "The hands are a window to the soul.", was it Benham?... (I know he said "hands are the servant of the brain").... which goes along with what Patti said "In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self."

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, please be aware... even though Manfred said that you wrote: "Lynn wrote: "The tumb side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer....", you actually never wrote those words at all!!!

(I have checked your posts twice!)

Therefore I had to conclude that Manfred directly took those words from your post in response to my post - but you only made that post after I had myself introduced the words "active self-assertion" derived from von Mangoldt's words!!!

PS. Lynn, I am aware that HERE you described in this discussion once how you associate the thumb with "how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world". But in your conversation with Sue it became more apparent that your make this connection via the element fire (because the tip of the thumb is fire); and usually you only talked about that you associate the thumb with assering our will into the world.

(In the other topic you also made a reference to Gettings: "I also agree with Gettings that the thumb represents how we put our inner self out into the external world.")

But can I remind you that earlier in this discussion you wrote HERE: "OK Martijn, feel free not to include inner/outer in the labelling of your diagram with regard to your conclusions about 5-element hand analysis."

We have been saying all along that the radial side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer

Lynn wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, please be aware... even though Manfred said that you wrote: "Lynn wrote: "The tumb side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer....", you actually never wrote those words at all!!!

(I have checked your posts twice!)

Therefore I had to conclude that Manfred directly took those words from your post in response to my post - but you only made that post after I had myself introduced the words "active self-assertion" derived from von Mangoldt's words!!!

PS. Lynn, I am aware that HERE you described in this discussion once how you associate the thumb with "how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world". But in your conversation with Sue it became more apparent that your make this connection via the element fire (because the tip of the thumb is fire); and usually you only talked about that you associate the thumb with assering our will into the world.

(In the other topic you also made a reference to Gettings: "I also agree with Gettings that the thumb represents how we put our inner self out into the external world.")

But can I remind you that earlier in this discussion you wrote HERE: "OK Martijn, feel free not to include inner/outer in the labelling of your diagram with regard to your conclusions about 5-element hand analysis."

wow you took time to read ALL of my posts TWICE!

Yes you are right that I did not write the exact sentence that Manfred quoted, but if you take away the quote marks I have indeed used all those words about the thumb.
You want to discount this

We have been saying all along that the radial side is the active self-assertion, how we express our inner world to the outer

. because I used it after you "introduced" the words 'active self assertion'.
But I have used all those words before in the thumb topics:
You already quoted where I said :
Because it (water finger) is on radial side, in conjunction with the thumb it shows how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world.
and "I also agree with Gettings that the thumb represents how we put our inner self out into the external world."

I have also said -
I see the thumb as how we assert our will out into the world.
The thumb is the vehicle via which we express the rest of the hand out into the world.
I am still of the belief that the thumb is how we translate our energy/selves out into the world.
I believe the thumb has the effect of integrating the rest of the hand and that the thumb is the final expression of all this combined energy out into the world.
Earth quadrant is on the radial (active) side.
I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world.
I also suggested " the palm represents the inner world and .the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world." not the outer world itself. As Patti said "It is the self interacting with the environment."
I see the top phalanx more like "I am going to do this", asserting our will on the world.
Radial - active, conscious, outer. (more manifest, foreground, considered & 'out there', connecting with outside world)
It brings together all the other aspects of the hand, justifying what we want to do before finally translating it to the top (fire) phalanx where we assert & project our will on the world
I believe the thumb has the effect of integrating the rest of the hand and that the thumb is the final expression of all this combined energy out into the world.

I think Manfred got the gist of what I was saying and accurately summed it up in that sentence he quoted.
What did you think I was saying Martijn?

Martijn (admin) wrote:So, looking back... I think Lynn's confusion directly became manifest in her description of the principle that she is using for the thumb and the fact that she didn't mind to accept your more general principle as well!

Martijn (admin) wrote:


Patti, I am wondering... I am not sure: did you actually ever agree about anyting at all regarding what I have written in this topic?

Martijn (admin) wrote:




Lynn's first post (see below) shows that this appears to have happened immediately... and this could very well explain why we hardly discussed the part where the associates the inner world with the thumb. Because after you presented your more general principle for the full hand I guess for Lynn there was not much of a basis left to attribute much valude to that inner aspect of the thumb!

Martijn (admin) wrote:


(I recognize general ideas for the full hands as a mantra-like concepts that by principle can have no value for the purpose of reading hands at all - simply because in the perspective of reading hands we actually study the details of the hand relative to each other, so in my view is meaningless to use such mantra-like concepts).

Lynn wrote:
wow you took time to read ALL of my posts TWICE!
...
What did you think I was saying Martijn?

Well, I have only check all your posts regarding the words 'assert' & 'active' (+ all related variants).


Lynn, in my previous post you can read how I observe that you kind of got yourself into this trouble after adopting Patti's first words in this topic, Patti described her principle as follows:

"In reality the entire hand is an outer expression of the inner self."

Because after adopting Patti's principle... it become meaningless to also use this principle for the thumb in the specific perspective of a comparison with the other aspects of the hand - because that principle can be used for those other parts of the hand as well! (That's why I reject such general principles for the full hand)

So, even though you sometimes refered to the thumb as related to the inner self... your adoption of Patti's principle for the full hand made such reference almost meaningless.

And therefore, I understood that you claim that you have used the principle at the start of this discussion... but the context show that you actually never used it in a likewise manner compared to how I described my position in the perspective of von Mangoldt's quote!


This is not about 'word picking' as suggested by Patti, because I think this is much more about recognizing the meaning & implications of the words being used in it's context!

I really hope that you are able to recognize that this observation of mine could explain what really happened in this discussion.