Re: The final word on handshapes?

yogiman Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:39 pm

Well, a rounded hand. I saw that Einstein had one.

The problem that I have with this four element system, is that there is not so much surety about it, while it sets the tone for the rest of the features. You just have 2 variables, with each two sizes, which equals in number the elements, which is no big deal. It's nice when you can see allover the hands the signature of the 4 elements, but I think the elements should be kind of memory aid, and not a grid to force the interpretations into. This topic seems so important to me, that I rather go seeing what an old tradition is saying.

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:29 pm

yogiman wrote:Well, a rounded hand. I saw that Einstein had one.

The problem that I have with this four element system, is that there is not so much surety about it, while it sets the tone for the rest of the features. You just have 2 variables, with each two sizes, which equals in number the elements, which is no big deal. It's nice when you can see allover the hands the signature of the 4 elements, but I think the elements should be kind of memory aid, and not a grid to force the interpretations into. This topic seems so important to me, that I rather go seeing what an old tradition is saying.

Nope, there are actually three variables: FL, PB & PL, which each tend have a unique ratio towards the other two... but I can understand that the proportional formulas make things look at first sight that there are only two variables.

For example: even though finger length can be defined in terms of the Fl/PL ratio... the FL/PB ratio is actually also required to study 'overall' finger length properly. However, for the objective to assess 'hand shape' this is sort of an irrelevant issue (because 'overall finger length' is not really necessary to find a correct 'hand shape' assessment).

Regarding the 'old tradition': sorry, I am not sure what you exactly have in mind. I think the oldest traditions regarding elemental hand shape date from the 20th century (starting with the works of the authors Gettings & Dukes separately - but their guidelines include the same lack of specificity that made you create this topic... so I expect that the 'old tradition' will likely not help you out.

Actually, I could describe your latest move - by putting your hope focussed on 'old tradition' - as a shift towards... nowhere, because you are referring to nothing at all. You basically just walked away.

Anyway, thanks for your input so far at this forum! Thumbs up!

PS. In the photos of Einstein's hands I see nothing that I can associate with a 'round palm' (see the photos on the right below); you probably made your association from a 'cut with cissors' version of his handprints... which made his hand misleadingly look like it had a 'round' shape - while the picture below (+ other versions of his hand prints) show that this is not the case at all: Einstein didn't have 'round palms'.

The final word on handshapes? - Page 3 Edison-Einstein-600

The final word on handshapes? - Page 3 Edison-Einstein-600

**Lynn** Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:08 pm

I think the elements should be kind of memory aid, and not a grid to force the interpretations into.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'a grid to force interpretations onto' ? But I agree that the elements ARE a kind of memory aid. Once you understand the elements, and you know how they are ascribed to hand features, it means you don't have to remember all the varied possible interpretations for each hand feature such as the lists that appear in many palmistry books, you only have to observe how the element is working in that feature.

(edit) yogiman said

The problem that I have with this four element system, is that there is not so much surety about it, while it sets the tone for the rest of the features.

Sorry yogiman, can you say this in another way please / expand on it, as I don't understand what you are saying.

**Lynn** Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:32 pm

Yogiman I've scanned for you the pages that Martijn spoke about earlier, from Ed Campbell's "The Encyclopedia of Palmistry", P38 & 39 where it refers to 'Traditional Chinese Five Types'.

The final word on handshapes? - Page 3 Chines10

The final word on handshapes? - Page 3 Chines10

The final word on handshapes? - Page 3 Chines12

yogiman Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:07 pm

Sorry for the late reply, but I feel terrribly lazy at the moment.Thanks, Lynn, for taking so much effort, but I have to disappoint you. The metal hand should be the most materialistic of the whole bunch, and is described as the psychic hand of the sevenfold system. I get the impression that Gettings wanted to discredit all other systems for handshapes, before promoting his own one. I really would like to support you both, but honesty prevents me from it. I still think that the rounded and spatulated handshapes should be included. Maybe the system of d'arpigney should be refined, not in the least because it is including the 4 archetypes of the handyman, philosopher, artist and psychic. You could object that this is represented by the elements of earth, air, fire and water respectively in a broad sense, but my feeling is that the former is designed on basis of observation.

Something that I cannot fit in whatever system is that Einstein has an earth hand, whereas he was clearly a thinker.

**Lynn** Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:09 pm

yogiman wrote:Sorry for the late reply, but I feel terrribly lazy at the moment.Thanks, Lynn, for taking so much effort, but I have to disappoint you. The metal hand should be the most materialistic of the whole bunch, and is described as the psychic hand of the sevenfold system. I get the impression that Gettings wanted to discredit all other systems for handshapes, before promoting his own one. I really would like to support you both, but honesty prevents me from it. I still think that the rounded and spatulated handshapes should be included. Maybe the system of d'arpigney should be refined, not in the least because it is including the 4 archetypes of the handyman, philosopher, artist and psychic. You could object that this is represented by the elements of earth, air, fire and water respectively in a broad sense, but my feeling is that the former is designed on basis of observation.

Something that I cannot fit in whatever system is that Einstein has an earth hand, whereas he was clearly a thinker.

It doesn't disappoint me yogiman, because I don't use this system of taoist Chinese elements, I know nothing about it. What does disappoint me a little is that you don't answer some of the questions I've asked you, to try and understand better what you are saying.

With regard to above book, it says "the five shapes....are fire, water, earth, wood and gold (or metal)." Is gold interchangeable for metal in this system? If so it gives a different interpretation for gold than metal.

You said that your girlfriend's spatulate handshape is ignored. Rounded and spatulate handshapes are included in the elemental system that I use, as a secondary analysis, depending on which quadrants are eroded.

Yes D'Arpentigny's system was based on observations (as was the element system). D'Arpentigny started his quest after noticing that the hands of military men were different from those of artists and poets. However, your girlfriend's hand is completely ignored in D'Arpntigny's system, in fact all women's hands are ignored, because he devised it for use only on the hands of men.

Just because someone has an earth hand, doesn't mean they don't think! Depending on which picture you look at, Einstein's hands are more fire/earth combination (which is a good combination for science). He does have very short fingers, which brings a fast, more instinctive, intuitive way of thinking, ability to see the whole picture. He got most of his ideas and theories in his dreams or imagination, the maths came later. Look to his headline for his manner of thinking.

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:24 pm

yogiman wrote:Sorry for the late reply, but I feel terrribly lazy at the moment.Thanks, Lynn, for taking so much effort, but I have to disappoint you. The metal hand should be the most materialistic of the whole bunch, and is described as the psychic hand of the sevenfold system. I get the impression that Gettings wanted to discredit all other systems for handshapes, before promoting his own one. I really would like to support you both, but honesty prevents me from it. I still think that the rounded and spatulated handshapes should be included. Maybe the system of d'arpigney should be refined, not in the least because it is including the 4 archetypes of the handyman, philosopher, artist and psychic. You could object that this is represented by the elements of earth, air, fire and water respectively in a broad sense, but my feeling is that the former is designed on basis of observation.

Something that I cannot fit in whatever system is that Einstein has an earth hand, whereas he was clearly a thinker.

Sorry yogiman, beyond the fact that you haven't explained the foundation of your association regarding 'metal' & 'earth'... your association actually does not make much sense for multiple reasons:

1) Various authors (e.g. Gardini) associate the metal hand with the so-called 'psychic hand' (e.g. long, tapering fingers + very small thumb, soft hand) in Carus' system of hand shape classification, see: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22metal+hand%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl#q=%22metal+hand%22+%22long%2C+tapering%22&tbm=bks

2) The 5 taoist elements represent 'phases' of 'process and change', and thus the element metal should not get associated to represent the physical characteristics of metal; metal is supposed to represent the 'shiny' aspect... just like snow & ice, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Xing#Cosmology_and_feng_shui

3) if we compare the 5 Taotist elements (earth, water, fire, wood, metal) with the 5 classic elements (earth, water, fire, air & ether) then 'metal' comes most closely to the most immaterial element 'ether'; this illustrates how the metal hand became associated with the psychic hand.

So your association for metal with 'earth' very likely has no grounds at all.

PS. The proportions of both of Einstein's hands indicate that his hand shape actually comes most close to the fire hand shape (or fire/earth hand shape).

yogiman Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:14 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
1) Various authors (e.g. Gardini) associate the metal hand with the so-called 'psychic hand' (e.g. long, tapering fingers + very small thumb, soft hand) in Carus' system of hand shape classification, see: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22metal+hand%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl#q=%22metal+hand%22+%22long%2C+tapering%22&tbm=bks

2) The 5 taoist elements represent 'phases' of 'process and change', and thus the element metal should not get associated to represent the physical characteristics of metal; metal is supposed to represent the 'shiny' aspect... just like snow & ice, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Xing#Cosmology_and_feng_shui

3) if we compare the 5 Taotist elements (earth, water, fire, wood, metal) with the 5 classic elements (earth, water, fire, air & ether) then 'metal' comes most closely to the most immaterial element 'ether'; this illustrates how the metal hand became associated with the psychic hand.

PS. The proportions of both of Einstein's hands indicate that his hand shape actually comes most close to the fire hand shape (or fire/earth hand shape).[/color]

Hi Martijn, at least your are a good sport.

1) Very likely there was some 'rumour' going, and this was picked up by the peers.

2)In anyway this is not true for shapes, because in both face reading and feng shui they are related to tree, fire, earth, metal and water. One could argue that shape is something non-tangible.

The successive 'elements' represent the steps in the natural cycle of things. For example, gold lies dormant in the ground (water), is extricated by mining (rising, wood), goes into the oven (fire), is going to melt (earth), and gets solid (metal), and the way it will turn back to the ground eventually you may speculate about.

Another perspective is this:
fire and water are opposites
metal and wood (or rather tree are opposites)
tree represents nature, metal represents culture.

In it's most elevated state metal is silver or gold. That's why the tiger is it's symbol with his white stripes and light brown color. And metal is heavy, that's why it is referred to autumn (leaves falling) and sunset (the devouring tiger).

Now the cardinal earth. Earth is represented by the fertile ground(2), the mountain(8), and qi in which case it is called earth 5 and is in the centre of the Lo Shu diagram. And this is really funny. The west has got 4 stable elements, while china has got 5 transformation phases. However, the spiritual essence is for the west heavenly (aether), and for the chinese earthly (earth 5). Even in this case we see a miraculous balance.

3) So to the chinese earth is equal to aether, the opposites meet each other.

PS There is a lot of apologizing.

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:18 pm

So many more strange 'associations'.... for example: it doesn't make any sense to me see you argue that "shape is something non-tangible" (2), which in a way even sounds quite irrational to me; and regarding "chinese earth is equal to ether" (3), rather strange to see you make such a point in the perspective of the fact that the chinese actually also use the 'earth element'.

I think this all appears to reflect your personal system of perceptions, unfortunately you exhibit little interest to substantiate anything at all... which could explain why you have putten little value (I think so far you basically disqualified everything except your own 'associations') to any of the sources & materials mentioned by others inside this topic... except for the so-called 'scientific' claims made at the 500 hand project (while I recognize those claims to be fairly unrealistic).

scratch

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:25 pm

By the way, there is actually a scientific model for hand shape assessment available which sort of underlines the significance of the fundamental characteristics of the earth and water handshape.

This concerns a model based on the so-called 'hand index', which is based on the ratio of hand breadth (or palm breadth) [HB] to hand length [HL]; the 5 hand shapes recognized in this model are:

- Hyperdolichocheri (hdch): HB/HL < 40.9 ( = very long/narrow hand shape) => Water hand shape qualifies for this criterium!
- Dolichocheri (dch): HB/HL = 41.0-43.9 ( = long/narrow hand shape)
- Mesocheri (mch): HB/HL = 44.0-46.9 ( = ordinary hand shape) => Medium hand shape qualifies for this criterium!
- Brachycheri (bch): HB/HL = 47.0-49.9 ( = short/broad hand shape)
- Hyperbrachycheri (hbch): HB/HL > 50.0 ( = very short/broad hand shape) => Earth hand shape qualifies for this criterium!

But there are very few articles available where this approach to 'hand shape' is described, to mention a few:

2013 article: http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.4314/ijest.v5i1.5
2011 article: http://maxwellsci.com/print/ajms/v3-146-150.pdf
1942 article: http://www.oandplibrary.org/al/pdf_raw/1955_02_raw.pdf

(Additionally, there are literally hundreds of studies where the 'hand index' was used to study hand shape!)

NOTE: The word 'cheri' refers to the hand; 'brachy' to short shaped & 'dolicho' to long shaped... therefore the term 'brachycheri' refers to a short shaped hand, and 'dolichocheri' refers to a long shaped hand.

yogiman Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:12 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:[color=brown]
So many more strange 'associations'.... for example: it doesn't make any sense to me see you argue that "shape is something non-tangible" (2), which in a way even sounds quite irrational to me; and regarding "chinese earth is equal to ether" (3), rather strange to see you make such a point in the perspective of the fact that the chinese actually also use the 'earth element'.

Sorry Martijn, but my status quo feels attacked. The remark that 'shape is something non-tangible' was not necessary, but also not necessarily untrue. What I mean is that shape is disconnected from matter, as it can be in your imagination, or be put within a mathematical formula.

It is the dantien, the point at the navel, that roots us to the earth. But it also the place where the qi is stored. Likely you have to think in terms of the prima materia of the alchemists.

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