mental Illness

**nishaghai** Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:35 am

yogiman wrote:Here are the photos of his fraternal twinbrother, who is diagnosed autistic. He is very different, and wants to speak quicker than he is able to. As a consequence he stutters and stumbles a lot, and makes a nervous impression, also because he is not so sure of himself. But he has a good intelligence, although with a certain narrowness, and is very curious about things. He has a nice character, youthful and laughing, as if the positive things of puberty remained. Though he is multi-interested, his main thing is mechanics, and he likes to work with his hands. *That made the task more problemetic to discern his dermatoglyphics, because he has rough hands and his skin ridges are mostly worn out. With difficulty I saw the following dermatoglyphics from first to fourth finger:
right: whorl, ulnar, whorl, ulnar
left: whorl, peacock, whorl, ulnar or whorl
His thumbs both have a whorl, and are a little bit stiff. He is indeed going his own way, bordering to egocentricity, in contrast to his brother. I saw no loops on his hands. His little finger is long, which surprises me.

*Fortunately we have the opportunity to edit any time. In relation to his long headline going into the moon area, I want to add that he often talks about his past life (year after year), while no one is taking him serious.

Hello Yogiman
What is the diffrence in both twin hands . Have you reviewed both twins palm . What was diffrent you saw in this hand .
Nisha Ghai

yogiman Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:30 pm

I think there will not be any significant difference. The left and right hand of his brother were also not very different. What I find peculiar in both cases is the headline. The intellectually handicapped man has close to a sidney line, and the other has a headline that dives deep into the moon area.

In a couple of days I will show pictures of my mother, who is intellectually handicapped and has some mental issues.

**nishaghai** Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:14 pm

yogiman wrote:I think there will not be any significant difference. The left and right hand of his brother were also not very different. What I find peculiar in both cases is the headline. The intellectually handicapped man has close to a sidney line, and the other has a headline that dives deep into the moon area.

In a couple of days I will show pictures of my mother, who is intellectually handicapped and has some mental issues.

Hello
Line going towards moon can indicate mental illness but i will not say illness it should be restless ness and dipresstion . Sydney lines also at time talk about Austic but how is the thumb is it short and skin is it pale .
Nisha Ghai

yogiman Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:03 pm

About depression I don't know, I believe he gets some psycho medication. But he is pretty restless.

yogiman Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:26 pm

So here are the pictures of my mother. She is intellectually handicapped, not because I hold a grudge against her, but because she is officially diagnosed. As a compensation, she is really good at social talk (superficial storytelling) and has a refined taste for fashion. From a young age she has got a nervous disorder, but in no way is shy or withdrawn with whomever. She can be incredibly unwise and stubborn, keeps to fixed routines, likes to do her own will, but can be really loving, cute and caring. Tell what you think about it.

right hand:
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left hand:

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learner Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:48 am

between ages 40 and 45 did she have a major problem of health or personal life?

yogiman Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:12 pm

From 25 her life has been tough for her. I think her darkest periodes were when her mother and brother died, when she was 46 and 49 respectively.

learner Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:41 pm

yogiman wrote:From 25 her life has been tough for her. I think her darkest periodes were when her mother and brother died, when she was 46 and 49 respectively.

Thank you for the feedback.

MSC Thu May 14, 2015 9:27 pm

I've been a teacher of regular and special needs for 20 years. Within the years I started to notice how serious cases of mental ilness showed as odd facil features combine with odd hands, shape, color, size... I never ask students to show me the lines inside the palm, but can't help noticing the rest. I still need to study a lot to understand it, but my experience is that in the extreme cases there is a lot of unnusual combinations. The functional but diagnozed students, I don't remember having odd hands, only the extreme cases. I read Martijn's website page on schizophrenia and it was to the mark.

**nishaghai** Fri May 15, 2015 6:39 am

MSC wrote:I've been a teacher of regular and special needs for 20 years. Within the years I started to notice how serious cases of mental ilness showed as odd facil features combine with odd hands, shape, color, size... I never ask students to show me the lines inside the palm, but can't help noticing the rest. I still need to study a lot to understand it, but my experience is that in the extreme cases there is a lot of unnusual combinations. The functional but diagnozed students, I don't remember having odd hands, only the extreme cases. I read Martijn's website page on schizophrenia and it was to the mark.

yes we can find mental illness in hand in fact it is the first thing we get to see in hand . And as per my experience any illness cn be found from hand . Our palm respones to the changes in the body very fast any good palm reader can make it .
Nisha Ghai .

**Martijn (admin)** Fri May 15, 2015 10:29 am

nishaghai wrote:
MSC wrote:I've been a teacher of regular and special needs for 20 years. Within the years I started to notice how serious cases of mental ilness showed as odd facil features combine with odd hands, shape, color, size... I never ask students to show me the lines inside the palm, but can't help noticing the rest. I still need to study a lot to understand it, but my experience is that in the extreme cases there is a lot of unnusual combinations. The functional but diagnozed students, I don't remember having odd hands, only the extreme cases. I read Martijn's website page on schizophrenia and it was to the mark.

yes we can find mental illness in hand in fact it is the first thing we get to see in hand . And as per my experience any illness cn be found from hand . Our palm respones to the changes in the body very fast any good palm reader can make it .
Nisha Ghai .

Sorry Nisha, I think your words do not reveal any specific signal that you are capable to do what you just claimed.

I think your words are likely the result of a process that involves conceptual association - which is often used by hand readers in a rather naive manner when discussing/analysing individual cases.

From my experience it is actually far from easy to identify how mental illness correlates with the hand in individuals,.. and I think it is misleadingly naive to suggests that you recognize it to be the 'first thing' that you see in the hand, as this could even suggests that you recognize any kind of emotional trouble to represent with mental illness.

Unfortunately, I can only speculate about the implications of your input because so far your input was not specific in any manner at all.

**Martijn (admin)** Fri May 15, 2015 10:30 am

MSC wrote:I've been a teacher of regular and special needs for 20 years. Within the years I started to notice how serious cases of mental ilness showed as odd facil features combine with odd hands, shape, color, size... I never ask students to show me the lines inside the palm, but can't help noticing the rest. I still need to study a lot to understand it, but my experience is that in the extreme cases there is a lot of unnusual combinations. The functional but diagnozed students, I don't remember having odd hands, only the extreme cases. I read Martijn's website page on schizophrenia and it was to the mark.

Thanks for your input & feedback! Thanks!

**Felicity Martin** Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:43 am

Hi All,

I am a bit hesitant to post as am now having a conditioned negative responses to reading replies, valid, but not encouraging to further exploration and developing understanding.

My understanding of the hands and their global referencing of possible conditions is that it indicates there may be a slightly increased risk of expression of certain traits or conditions. I am a firm supporter of epigenetics and biopsychosocial contributions to the general picture of the person presenting.

Without using leading questions but allowing them to talk, listening to their metaphors and coming to an understanding of their schemas, you can get a better picture of whether these indications are being expressed. In a positive, empathic, supportive environment.

I had a very interesting young female adult, who had been homeless and now recently had accommodation as we live in a very poor socioeconomic area, whose hand indicated problems with self identity (Flat subthenar mount) and a strong death instinct, Mount well developed and dropping deeply into the wrist area) (Holtzman 2013).

Her left hand had a severely disrupted life line, broken significantly in four places, her right was chained as was her head and heart line. When she held her hands up, outer surface facing me, the fingers were drooping as if with sadness and bearing the weight of the world, accompanied by very low expectations from life and therapeutic experiences.

I use the Tarot as well as I find it an excellent way to externalise often confronting internal emotions, and the signifier was the eight of swords. This card is a person standing blindfolded with swords standing in the sand either side out on the seabed with the tide out. This also indicated perhaps some support to the presentation of the hands of a personality with overwhelming challenges in emotional control.

Through empathic listening she told me she had border-line personality disorder, and after asking about any traumas, she said she was frightened by a vision she woke up with of a little girl in a room full of cupboards, curled up and crying. She was frightened of exploring that vision and even if she could there was no access to suitable therapists. And it goes without saying I did not pursue this as it would require an appropriately qualified therapist. Sadly through inadequate mental health funding here in South Australia she has no access and all she was given was medication, which she had felt made her worse. Oh if she could only access evidence based dialectic or schematic therapy, which demonstrates long term improvements and much better than just -in isolation- a quick pharmaceutical fix with little follow up.

I would genuinely look forward to whether you have any lived experience, evidence-based research, or personal insights Martijn, or Learner, into this disorder, and if so were some of these hand traits present. I am hoping for a response that encourages more learning in this valuable area.

In brief I decided to do psychology (and I know psychiatrists often have a negative attitude towards psychology), as I am surrounded by people who suffer mental health conditions with no access to services. I have completed my Bachelor of Behavioural Studies (Psychology- advanced) and minor in Indigenous psychological health) and hope to start Honours at Monash this year. I have a Diploma of Counselling. I am mature aged (63 years) so it is a challenge but am strongly motivated by my social environment, as we have the highest suicide rate here in Australia. I topped our final Measurement project, developing the first phase of a Loneliness Scale, which specifically addresses more rural and remote communities, from the young to the elderly. I am also a Member of the International Golden Key Society.

I do not normally feel a need to qualify my interest in psychodiagnostic cheirology, however for some reason it seems necessary in this environment.

Felicity

**Felicity Martin** Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:33 am

Hi Martijn

I was wondering if you had done any work in the functional effect of the tandem duplication polymorphism in relation to the 5'flanking region of the DRD4 gene, given its association with Down Syndrome, ADHD, schizophrenia, and the Simian line, or as many seem to refer to the single transverse crease?

I would really appreciate your input if you have as you have some excellent coverage of these conditions.

Felicity

**Felicity Martin** Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:54 am

Hi all,

Further to the discussion and citing of some valuable resources on this topic, some further interesting studies I found useful in looking at the hand as a predictive tool in schizophrenia were the meta-analysis of Golembo-Smith et al (2012), focusing on abnormal dermatoglyphics in Schizophrenia Research, and Shamir et al. (2013) on both dermatoglyphics and morphology (Psychiatry Research, http://dx.doi.org.ezproxy.lib.swin.edu.au/10.1016/j.psychres.2013.08.026).

Felicity

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:02 pm

Felicity Martin wrote:Hi Martijn

I was wondering if you had done any work in the functional effect of the tandem duplication polymorphism in relation to the 5'flanking region of the DRD4 gene, given its association with Down Syndrome, ADHD, schizophrenia, and the Simian line, or as many seem to refer to the single transverse crease?

I would really appreciate your input if you have as you have some excellent coverage of these conditions.

Felicity

Sorry Felicity, I have never considered the DRD4 gene (so far it was never mentioned before at this forum or any of my websites).

But thanks for asking anyway! Thumbs up!

**Felicity Martin** Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:38 pm

Thanks Martijn,

I find the genetic aspect in conjunction with gene expression very interesting. I was also interested in the difference between high functioning or successful psychopaths which is now placed within antisocial personality disorder, and the difference in the hands of those who largely occupy gaol, those people normally think off as anti-social, who tend not to have hands like those in Holtzman's (2013) book, I have found those with high functioning psychopathic tendencies are more consistent with his examples.

In relation to those with antisocial personalities who are not high functioning or successful, they tended to have more earth like hands with square palms, fingers, shorter thumbs with dominant distal phalanges, and fairly basic lines. Interestingly they are more likely the product of social circumstance, areas with higher levels of pollution, particularly lead, poorer parenting skills, may have antisocial fathers or mothers with dependent personality disorder so their is a strong environmental/genetic interplay. Maybe this difference is cultural or the fact I am exposed to more low income people.

Prisoners in one study with antisocial personality disorder, who were given oxytocin had marked improvement in behaviour and lowered levels of aggression. Maybe that should be considered as a possible support treatment in the same way as insulin, and may have been due to early lack of affection allowing the oxytocin mechanism to fully develop?

I also was quite interested in the preliminary study I mentioned earlier looking at biometric parameters of the hand as a possible predictor of schizophrenia. Of the six factors they explored two related to the proximal crease, including one that was extremely short, like the case of the Solomon Islander I had mentioned earlier and others, however many had instead broken lines, or deeply descending into the hypothenar mount, which I tend to associate with depressive tendencies, with significant correlations with client's self-reports. No mention was made of single transverse creases.

Only, as I would expect, the short proximal crease had a significant correlation with 2 other factors (poorly defined knuckles in the middle finger, and finger nails that demonstrated eponychium, interestingly in the middle and ring finger) in predicting with 81.2% efficiency someone with schizophrenia (Shamir, Cassan, Levy, Lifshitz, & Tarrasch, 2013).

You most likely are already aware of these indicators, but if not, am glad to have made a small contribution to your fantastic work

Felicity

**Martijn (admin)** Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:30 am

Talma Brill wrote:
Lynn wrote:Aug 16th Charles said
Hi Charles sorry I took some time to get back to you. I found the notes from the seminar but I remember now we were told to keep the schizophrenia study for our private ref, as the scientific study hadn't been published - that was 1998. I don't know if it ever was published, I can't find it online. The woman who was doing the study was Talma Brill from Israel. There were 7 parameters that she found significant in the hands of schizophrenics.
We didn't study depression at the seminar.

Hi everybody,

My name is Talma Brill and I am the one that Lynn mentioned , recalling the seminar about this topic in 1998. I am a professional chirologist more than 25 years, and I have conducted two scientific studies in the Abrabanel mental center, an hospital associated to Tel-Aviv university, in Israel.
My original intention was to check and identify hand features which associated with suicidal tendencies, but certain considerations made us to prefer the general question, if it is possible to identify, and define the differences, between the patients and the controls, by the prints of their hands and direct observation. This was a pilot study, which included 117 people, and the statistical results were astonishingly significant.
This paper was exhibited as a poster in psychiatry convention, and was published in the Israel Journal of Psychiatry, 1999.
It can be seen in my English site: www.chirology.co.il , in the section called "published".

The second study was blind, included 100 people, all the patients were diagnosed as schizophrenics, the controls were mostly personnel, (from M.Ds to nurses, cleaners, etc.) and again, the question was if I could identify who is who, by the hand prints only. I did correctly identify 74% of the participants, beside several specific parameters which were found very statistically significant.
It is considered to be very strong results.

The two studies are included in my book: "The Hand: a mirror of the soul, Diagnostic and Applied Chirology" (Hebrew) which I hope to publish in English.
.
On the way, I learned a lot and got more confidence in my knowledge on the topics of suicidal tendencies, depressive tendencies and anxiety. So I give workshops on these topics to psychologists and care takers.

Thank you all for raising this important topic and discussing it. I think that every counselor, and a chirologist is a counselor, and every caretaker, and a good chirologist is a kind of a caretaker, should have this knowledge, not for making a diagnosis, but for asses wisely and know when to refer the person to the appropriate professionals.

Congratulations Talma! Thumb up

I just noticed that earlier this month the English version of your book became finally available; I found it at Amazon:

The Hand: The Mirror of The Soul Paperback – April 4, 2017

Great to see that a major part of your book (part 4) involves your studies, including two studies involving psychiatric populations.

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konnekt-heart-2-heart Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:30 am

Lynn wrote:I am so looking forward to taking more part in this discussion when I have more time, as it is an area of special interest for me.

About 12 years ago I studied Charlotte Wolff's work in some depth, but since forgotten what I learnt

Around that time, I went to a Cheirological Society study group weekend about "Mental illness & mental handicap in the hand". Among the presentations was a lady from Israel who was studying schizophrenia & hands (think I still have my notes somewhere...). During the weekend we were presented with some hand prints and were asked to diagnose the 'mental health/handicap condition'. Most people were correct in their diagnosis of depression, schizophrenia, we all got the Down's syndrome correct, (I can't recall what else). But NOT ONE OF US correctly diagnosed the psychopath, who had the most 'normal' looking hands of all the ones presented. a bit scary eh?

Hi Lynne,
I have just finished reading the book "The sociopath next door" by Martha Stout, ph.D. (Bought online from the Bookdepository. The scary thing about sociopaths is that they seem just average people for the most part and rarely you could pick them from their hands. It's their way of operating in life that sets them apart. 4% of the world's population is estimated to be sociopathic. The "symptoms" if you'd like to call it that are first and foremost NO CONSCIENCE because they have no feelings for people, animals or anything. They are characterised by eternal boredom, irresponsibility, dominating attitude - these stand out. Their goal in life is to be pitied (ie easy to manipulate people if you get them to be sorry for you). Cunning and easily cruel, they are compulsive liars. Some are charming and charismatic, others are just plain rough. When violence is added to this cocktail they are psychopaths.

I've had personal experience at very close quarters with a classic example (it's even in the book) with a sociopath. Relationships with them start well but as soon as they have their foot in the door the demeanor changes... And even though everyone tells me I'm an accurate reader there is nothing in the palm that pointed to me that I was going to be courting disaster. I expect if I knew about dermaglyphics (study of the whorls on fingertips) it would have shed greater light on his personality, but that isn't in the scope of my knowledge. Other than that I do believe schizophrenia can be seen in the hands. It usually is shown by unusual markings of the heart and head line and looks like a tangled mess (in my experience). It was also confirmed by the hand's owner that he is schizophrenic. So that was a great first-hand experience. Schizophrenia's causes, I've read, usually are caused by generational trauma (read the works by Dr. Franz Rupert, German psychotherapist, who works with the Family Constellations method.)( It was found that many direct descendants of Holocaust survivors became schizo. In Family Constellations scenarios are set up to redress and cure the past to make the present generation well. I digress.) As for general mental illness, I do believe you can tell, usually by islands on the head line. Breaks in the head line indicate periods of acute mental anguish and short periods of not having it together. Can be caused by death in family or divorce - whatever is traumatic for that person.

The book on palmistry by William Benham (I have found) is probably the best text I have ever studied.

Hope this helps.

**Lynn** Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:34 am

Thanks for your interesting input Ilze.

konnekt-heart-2-heart Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:48 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
profmani wrote:Profmani Age 78 years Palmist for several years
Mental Illness can be read when you see a DOT on the Head Line
Mental illness can be read when you see the Head line running very close to life line
Mental illness can be read when you see SIMIAN LINE on the Palm
Mental illness can be read when you see a Horizontal line on the third phalange of Saturn Finger
Mental Illness can be read when you see a VERY SHORT Head line
Mental Illness can be read when you see a abnormal high moon mount
Mental Illness can be read when you see a horizontal line crossing from Moon mount to Venus Mount

Sounds quite unrealistic to me, because I think most people have at least one of these features (though I have none of them myself).

Dots on headline indicate migraines. That isn't mental illness. This has been my observations.

konnekt-heart-2-heart Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:02 am

I have read all the comments in this section and know that I, personally, wouldn't ever tell a person they are mentally ill. In my experience breaks in the headline early in life have related to drug-taking, including marijuana and heroin. Both have the same effect on the headline: it splits completely, leaving a gap, before resuming. So may I suggest drug taking may accelerate a person developing a mental illness? In the medical literature about marijuana it states that taking this drug leads to anxiety and depression, it isn't a soft drug at all.

Secondly, I don't think it the sign of a good palmreader to tell a client they are mentally ill - I've found people have come to me when they've exhausted all the other professional avenues and not found comfort. Severe emotional distress can make a person feel they've become unhinged, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are "mentally ill." I have found that when there are breaks in the headline say, in a person's life, around 50, it has to do with a death in the family, when they feel lost and lose the plot for a short period of time. But as a whole this doesn't make them "mentally ill." Grieving is a natural state.

I cannot see any benefit to tell a person they've lost the plot. I see my vocation to be a help to people's equilibrium, not someone ready to sabotage the client, who already may be fragile when they come to see me. I like to steer towards equilibrium, not away from it.

I also hypothesise that when a person shows you their palms they have put their entire trust in you and the words you say to them invariably stick in their mind. Even when I have seen criminality in hands I am very careful how I translate that to the client - I must also think of my own safety.

Have written down the books referred to here, and will search them out.

**pravin kumar** Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:23 am

What about persons who think negatively. The slightest defect in their head line makes them depressed. Cross on Mount of Saturn, Upper Mount of Mars weak and bending thumb will also send them into depression and not be able to fight back. Even without any strong indication on head line people think negatively and feel they are depressed. They are many fake palmist who misread and misguide the clients and they go into depression without any strong impression on their hand. Only last week I met a person personally who was worried he will die at 44 because some palmist told him he has a short life and showed him certain indications in palm.I had a tough time convincing him that he is best of health. So a person thinking negatively because of circumstances can also be depressed .

konnekt-heart-2-heart wrote:I have read all the comments in this section and know that I, personally, wouldn't ever tell a person they are mentally ill. In my experience breaks in the headline early in life have related to drug-taking, including marijuana and heroin. Both have the same effect on the headline: it splits completely, leaving a gap, before resuming. So may I suggest drug taking may accelerate a person developing a mental illness? In the medical literature about marijuana it states that taking this drug leads to anxiety and depression, it isn't a soft drug at all.

Secondly, I don't think it the sign of a good palmreader to tell a client they are mentally ill - I've found people have come to me when they've exhausted all the other professional avenues and not found comfort. Severe emotional distress can make a person feel they've become unhinged, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are "mentally ill." I have found that when there are breaks in the headline say, in a person's life, around 50, it has to do with a death in the family, when they feel lost and lose the plot for a short period of time. But as a whole this doesn't make them "mentally ill." Grieving is a natural state.

I cannot see any benefit to tell a person they've lost the plot. I see my vocation to be a help to people's equilibrium, not someone ready to sabotage the client, who already may be fragile when they come to see me. I like to steer towards equilibrium, not away from it.

I also hypothesise that when a person shows you their palms they have put their entire trust in you and the words you say to them invariably stick in their mind. Even when I have seen criminality in hands I am very careful how I translate that to the client - I must also think of my own safety.

Have written down the books referred to here, and will search them out.

P.K.

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