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WHo is this person Christopher Jones

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  zaobhand on Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:43 pm

Hi Anand,

I think it would be a great experiment to be able to establish a clear link between astrology and hand reading. In principle, I cannot see why the two shouldn't be connected.

Boaz

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  anand_palm on Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:36 pm

Hello Boaz

Yes you are right it would be great experiment, there was some kind of discussion in this forum on this part. I think it was upendrasingh bhadoriya who showed a chart which depicted some kind of relationship. Probably he would be able to show the link, i remember him showing a diagram on it. He did mention that finger jupiter is same as mars in indian astrology iam not sure exactly but somethingh like that. Probably he is doing some research on this aspect.

Thanks
Anand

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  anand_palm on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:04 pm

Hello Christopher

In your article on fingerprints you have categorized composite under loop element. Since it is part of whorl family (Water element) dont think you think it should have whorl chareterecstics.

Thanks
Anand

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  Christopher Jones on Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:27 pm

Hi Boaz,
after many years looking into the 'connection' between handreading and astrology, I concluded that the connection was purely in the mind of the perceiver. When I was working full time as a handreader, I was also a practising astrologer and was acutely aware of the similarities and differences of the two disciplines. But it very quickly came clear to me that astrology is best left to charts and elements are best used on hands.

I was fortunate enough to know Dylan Warren-Davis very well, who wrote a very interesting book called 'The Hand Reveals' - if you have not seen this, you should give it a read (but also read my review of it at my website!). Dylan is/was an extremely good astrologer, particularly hororary astrology, and he was a good handreader too.

Regarding 'double loops', I don't take these as a type of whorl, even though the standard dg classification does. Having two tri-radii means strictly speaking it could be either - but I class it as a type of loop because the psychological traits of those with double loops are more akin to loops than they are to whorl-types. Just there are two of them, so they get pulled in conflicting directions!

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  anand_palm on Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:41 pm

Hello Christopher

Iam still confused on the composite, double loop interpretation. There are Double loops which are more S shaped and more circular shaped( at centre you have two loops curled). In that sense would the interpretation change. Since you have also mentioned that tridaius (For tented arch) is one of the main drives for having energy(fire element). Since double loops have two triraddi the interpretation should be inclined to whorls due to impact of having more energy, eventhough double loops are inclined towards loops. But if you look the double loop is not totally in loop shape as one side of it atleast 180- 270 one side and atleast 180 on other side, and the tririadii ensures the completeness. If it has to be two loops then there should not be any connectivity between these loops, but that is not the case in double loops. So iam still confused from this point of view of where it should be categorized.

How to go about.

Thanks
Anand




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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  Patti on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:53 pm

Christopher Jones wrote:
Regarding 'double loops', I don't take these as a type of whorl, even though the standard dg classification does. Having two tri-radii means strictly speaking it could be either - but I class it as a type of loop because the psychological traits of those with double loops are more akin to loops than they are to whorl-types. Just there are two of them, so they get pulled in conflicting directions!

I too hope that you would expound a bit on this. Maybe in a new topic. We have had some discussions here previously about the double loops and their classification.

The concept of "pulled in conflicting directions" is interesting. When you take a close look at some double loops you can see the loops come in from both ulnar and radial sides and other times the loops enter from the same side and then other times it is one big loop that folds over or makes an S pattern (all with two triradii). Personally I think there is more to it than being pulled in opposite directions.

I would prefer to categorize them in the whorl group, one because of the two (or more) triradii and secondly because the pattern itself gives a more multidirectional appearance in the ridges than the plain loop or arch.

sunny

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  Christopher Jones on Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:29 pm

There is no confusion. It is what is called a 'composite pattern' - ie it has characteristics that straddle the pver-simplistic fingerprint classification system developed by Galton et al

They are classified as whorls according to the Galton system, because they have two triradii. But forensic scientists do not assess personality from fingerprint patterns.
In the elemental system of handreading, they are classified as loops, because that pattern is made up of two loops. The more elongated the loops are, the more this is true.

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  anand_palm on Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:07 pm

Hello Christopher

Then don't you think we have to look whether two loops form double loops or it is coming in as one single pattern. Iam able to understand all other interpretation but not composite prints partly because it comes under the fbi rules as a whorl classification and partly based on palmistry interpretation. But conflict in thought patterns arises only when there is a division, but in composite there is no division of loops, they are interlinked or interwined and also if you look it is not that simple as what we think of loops in opposite direction(Patti mentioned this also). But it looks like one is the miror of the other that does not mean they are conflicting can it mean somethingh else like what patti mentioned able to look from having multidirectional apperance. ALso it can it be taken as a circle split into half due to some reason. where one both half curls in different directions but these two halfs are connected. If it has be two loops pulling in opposite direction then there should be no spiralling of loop (should not have C kind of curve).

Hello christopher as patti has mentioned can there be a new topic started for this for having a detailed discussion, iam very much interested in understnading about this print.

Thanks
Anand

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  Christopher Jones on Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:24 am

Hi Patti et al,

yes, well that is why it is correctly termed a 'composite pattern', because it is composed of one or more patterns - and I agree with you that the more precise significance of the composite pattern will depend on what it is composed of.

And, once you accept it is a composite pattern, then the number of tridadii it has being the same as whorls does not matter; being composed of two loops means it will have two triradii. Since the Galton et al system simplistically classifies fingerprints according to the number of triradii they have, obviously they classify it as a whorl. But that does not mean it is a whorl - nor does it mean it is even related to a whorl!

Sometimes, rarely, you can even find composite fingerprint patterns with three tri-radii. What does that mean? Does it mean it is a whorl-loop?? (two triradii + one triradius, according to the Galton system). No, of course not - what it is depends on the shape/features or patterns of the print itself.

However, the most common form of this variant pattern is the 'double loop', so-named because it is made up of two loops, inter-twining in the opposite direction and when you look at it, it looks very much like a yin-yang symbol. It is sufficiently common that it can be considered a fingerprint pattern in its own right. Other variations are just not so common.


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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  anand_palm on Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:37 am

Hello Christopher

Yes Ying/Yang symbol. But it is more of balancing nature. able to see mutliple thinghs, which is why decision making becomes difficult for compsoite patterns, if there are more composite patterns in hand then they can face diifciulty in decision making because they are able to see other side of life, other view point ect.. from that point of view it should not bbe considered under classifcation of loops. Probably it could be a sign that the person can become a judge or advocate if there are more composite prints on hand.

Like when i look at composite prints with more depth then iam not able to classificy it as a loop, due to its complicated conenctivity like there is a partial C on one side and there is another inverted C when combined it is like S. so its a tough print to interpret. Like in some cases it a more circular curling, some partially left, some looks only the centre of S is more magnified and covers the area of prints. so even if we say it is a composite print classifcation then variants of it should be given some kind of interpreation other than loop.

If it is a classification then we have to look what makes this composite happen, like if we say fingerprints are inherited then probably if a kid has composite pattern then we have to judge whether parents have composite or loops or whorl and how the combination has worked for the offpsring, so a particular combination has made it happen. Hence judging from the outcome itself may not be sufficient enough. Also if a whorl does not have triradii how do you go about judging it. How would you interpret. if you have mentioned that combination of two loops will have two triraddi then we can also draw an analogy that whorl is combination of loops since the end formation is two triradii which is what penrose mentioned in justifying that whorl is combination of two loops.

A classification of whorl family comes only from triradii, like you are able to classify peacock or central pocket loop as whorl and loop partly due to pattern and partly due to imbalance in triradii location

Please advise. There is confusion on this print because there is lot of interpretation on this pattern than any other pattern.

Thanks
Anand





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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  zaobhand on Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 am

Hi Christopher,

Thank you for your advice. A relative of the Indian astrologer with whom I studied, is also a hand reader who often makes striking observations. Once he told a client about a missing "mother line" in her hand along with an insightful observation confirmed by her. Eagerly I asked him where the line is to which he replied "In my mind's eye". This and other experiences have inclined me to become less 'linear' in my approach. Astrology and hand-reading used to rather 'anguish' me, seeking a consistent system that works as well as a connection between it and hand-reading since both represent psychology. To me astrology is a "2nd hand system" in the sense that we cannot divine it. I'd rather focus on working toward a state of awareness from which astrology can be derived rather than follow the rabbit trail of the commentaries and stories made up over the ancient texts. Still I enjoy honing my intuition by following charts of friends and interesting people.

I wasn't able to find your review on Dylan Warren-Davis but may have missed it.

What you say about the double-loops makes a lot of sense. Geometrical criteria as metrics for identification doesn't always correlate with psychology.

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  anand_palm on Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 am

Hello Zaoband

It would be great,If you can provide some insight on double loop interpretation.

Dont think you think at some point we have to start with geometric classifcation. I think it is geometrical criteria which has made some classification as a loop, whorl ectt.


Thanks
Anand


Last edited by anand_palm on Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : mistakes while typing)

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  Manfred on Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:08 am

Hy zaobhand,

in the traditional Indian palmistry (the Indians know that better) we find the expressions:

- Pitri Rekha = Father or Family line, Life line
- Matri Rekha = Mother line, Dhan or Whealth,
Head line
- Shil Gun Rekha = the line of Charakter, sometimes the line of life,
Heart line.*

Traditional and/or Gypsy palmists like to keep their secrets.



(On the foto: Patty in her former life Very Happy . - I really enjoy that! )

The link to the review of Dylan Warren-Davis is:
http://cheirology.net/reviews/handreveals.htm

*Source: K.C. Sen, Hast Samudrika Shastra

Regards
Manfred

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  Manfred on Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:39 pm

Dear Christopher,

some short lines about Rothmann's "Chiromancia", because you metioned him in your article about Warren-Davis.

Beside all I find it still very worth to study as he wrote the first book who's comparing or combining chiromancy and astrology in practise. I didn't get through all aspects and excaples but here's something to mention:
- Mostly for the time he used full, half or quarter hours.
- We know that it was hard at that time to get easy handling ephemerides, though he was a mathematician in Kassel and Prag for a longer time and did mathmatics about the stars. I think it was also hard to get the exact degrees for the point of birth on the earth. Shurely not at least because of this I always get some little differences in my charts (Excaple no. 4 he did completely wrong.)
- I only spared excample nr. 19 until now and did all the other charts with Regiomontanus and Placidus houses, comparing his and my results.
- First of all we have to mention that he used Regiomontanus houses.

- But even more important is for taking into consideration: Mostly he used the older Julian calendar, but for some excamples our Gregorian calendar!!

The older Julian calender he used (only) for the excample no.:
12, 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 (I'm not shure, if this excaple is right because I've left it until today). - For this we have to look only for the Sun in the signs and at the degrees.


I also have to say that I only studied his book in German language, though I have the into English translated copy. I'm shure I'll study both in the future more extensively.

Regards
Manfred

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  zaobhand on Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:51 pm

Hello Anand,

I think Christopher's explanation is very clear. The classification according Galton et al. has not been devised to interpret personality according to finger prints, so the two systems need not be mixed.

Hello Manfred,

Thank you for you the link. The "mother line" was just an example and I recall him mentioning mother quality and there was no line there. On the other hand, I did feel like the astrologer was ambivalent about sharing his knowledge.

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:09 pm

Patti wrote:
Christopher Jones wrote:
Regarding 'double loops', I don't take these as a type of whorl, even though the standard dg classification does. Having two tri-radii means strictly speaking it could be either - but I class it as a type of loop because the psychological traits of those with double loops are more akin to loops than they are to whorl-types. Just there are two of them, so they get pulled in conflicting directions!

I too hope that you would expound a bit on this. Maybe in a new topic. We have had some discussions here previously about the double loops and their classification.

The concept of "pulled in conflicting directions" is interesting. When you take a close look at some double loops you can see the loops come in from both ulnar and radial sides and other times the loops enter from the same side and then other times it is one big loop that folds over or makes an S pattern (all with two triradii). Personally I think there is more to it than being pulled in opposite directions.

I would prefer to categorize them in the whorl group, one because of the two (or more) triradii and secondly because the pattern itself gives a more multidirectional appearance in the ridges than the plain loop or arch.

sunny

Yes, Patti... your point is correct: it doesn't require the element of 'opposite directions' in order to recognize a DOUBLE LOOP.

E.g. 'The Science of Fingerprints' describes multiple fundamentally different examples of double loop variants where the central ridge lines are not positioned into opposite directions, see example 256, 259, 301 and 319 (all featured with 2 deltas).

I think Christopher sort of agreed with your comments, but I can confirm that I observe the same problem regarding how he describes a 'double loop' (according the elemental system).

And I can add one more example: Christopher's description of the 'composite pattern' (according the elemental system) also appears to include patterns that will be described as 'accidental whorls' in the F.B.I. system.



Christopher Jones wrote:There is no confusion. It is what is called a 'composite pattern' - ie it has characteristics that straddle the pver-simplistic fingerprint classification system developed by Galton et al

They are classified as whorls according to the Galton system, because they have two triradii. But forensic scientists do not assess personality from fingerprint patterns.
In the elemental system of handreading, they are classified as loops, because that pattern is made up of two loops. The more elongated the loops are, the more this is true.

Hi Christopher,

I understand that your words above are meant in response to anand_palm's confusion/question regarding your words.

But I think some kind of confusion has become manifest in this discussion, because I observe that a significant part of this confusion could be resulting from that many people are not aware that the word 'whorl' formally includes 4 different types of whorl- and loop variants : 1) plain whorl, 2) central pocket loop, 3) double loop, 4) accidental loops.

However, usually ... when people start using the word 'whorl' they only refer to the first variant: the 'plain whorl'.

With this in mind, one can learn to understand that in the elemental system various types of 'composite patterns' are being called 'loops'.... while in the FBI system & the scientific system those patterns are being called 'whorls'.



PS. To anand_palm, Christopher & Patti:

I think my 2 comments above should cover all 'confusing' elements... that basically resulted from aspects related to the vocabulary differences between the Elemental system and the other systems.

(But I should add here that in 2011 Lynn, Patti & myself have also spotted essential vocabulary differences between the FBI system and the scientific system represented by e.g. Galton + Cummins & Midlo; and in the past we also bumped at likewise problems with Richard Unger's system of fingerprint classification... so at the end one should always be aware of who says what - because people usually tend to be focussed on just one of the 4 systems that I have mentioned in this post of mine: FBI system, scientific system, elemental system, Unger system; however people are not always fully aware of the vocabulary rules of the system that they use, and beyond the necessary knowledge I think it requires a certain level of discipline to use the related vocabulary properly, etc.)

___________________________________________
sunny

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:26 pm

Manfred wrote:Traditional and/or Gypsy palmists like to keep their secrets.



(On the foto: Patty in her former life Very Happy . - I really enjoy that! )

Regards
Manfred

hahahaha Manfred!! I love it!
Must do a past life transgression and find some of those secrets! lol!

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  Manfred on Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:52 pm

Must do a past life transgression and find some of those secrets! lol!


....shurely you'll find me in the past.... Smile

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:00 pm

Hi Martijn, Although there are several systems, in my opinion, that in itself shows indications that there is little understanding, observation, or agreement on the details of what makes up these complex patterns.

Unger clumps them all into a composite category in his book and even uses the S pattern as the description. The FBI says the S pattern is not a composite/double loop whorl but doesn't give an example of an S pattern yet gives plenty of samples that look like S patterns along with some composites they call double loops. Does anyone have a sample of an S pattern that isn't a double loop in their collection?

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19022/19022-h/19022-h.htm

Note that Figure 256 is described as a double loop but it is really a tented arch with a loop or an Accidental pattern. Yet further down they show the same pattern in a more simplified form Figure 279 as an Accidental.

Figure 261 is probably a much more common pattern than the whorl with the concentric circles or spiral center and most of us would quickly assess it as a plain whorl. Size is about the only difference between it and fig. 198. I believe not so long ago someone asked about a similar pattern here on the forum and was told it was a whorl. The FBI places it under the double loop category. (which of course is still correct since they are all under the heading of "whorl" - but it confuses things)




Accidentals:


Whorls:


EDIT:

Very Happy I think 261 is actually an example of what they call an S pattern. I had forgotten about looking for two separate shoulders as being important too! I'll start a new topic for this subject.

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  Christopher Jones on Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:56 pm

lets move onto the new thread to talk about fingerprints....

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Re: WHo is this person Christopher Jones

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 pm

Christopher Jones wrote:lets move onto the new thread to talk about fingerprints....
Patti honoured your request with the following new topic:
COMPOSITES (Loops / Whorls): Central Pockets, Lateral Pockets, Twin Loops & Accidentals

(Thanks Patti... Thumb up )

___________________________________________
sunny

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