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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

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X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:30 am



While there are hardly any pictures available of Walt Disney's hands... we can take a look at his fingerprints!

One of the most interesting characteristics is the 'Central Pocket Loop Type Whorl' on his right forefinger.


NOTICE: Here you can find the high-resolution version + some advanced fingerprint analyses made by fingerprint experts Andres J. Washington and hand analyst Richard Unger:

http://www.handresearch.com/thumbs/walt-disney-fingerprints.htm



Walt Disney is the man who created Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, etc.


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:52 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Lynn on Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:39 am

I remember seeing these years ago.
Interesting loop on his right thumb too, slightly unusual shape the way the loop flows in so low on the thumb. And he has a radial loop on left index. Can you see what his left ring & middle fingers are?

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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:56 am


Hi Lynn,

I think the left middle + ring finger are both a 'ulnar loop'.

That is also what Richard described for those fingers - though in his book and his website he describes a 'whorl' for the right ringer finger... which appears to be mistake.

(I can understand why he describes the left index finger as a 'tented arch' - though formally... according the FBI's paradigma it is indeed a 'radial loop')

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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Lynn on Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:51 am

Thanks Martijn. Yes I can see why Richard would describe left index as tented arch, tho I instantly saw it as radial loop.

Walt Disney was wonderful.... he made anything seem possible!


When you wish upon a star
Makes no difference who you are
Anything your heart desires
Will come to you


(song from "Pinocchio" film from 1940, around the same time as initial ideas about "Cosmic Ordering" originated, which didn't become mainstream until over 60 years later!)

sorry I can't seem to embed this video... Martijn feel free to edit ....
http://www.myvideo.de/watch/4439245/Pinocchio_When_you_wish_upon_a_star_original


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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:39 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Hi Lynn,

I think the left middle + ring finger are both a 'ulnar loop'.

That is also what Richard described for those fingers - though in his book and his website he describes a 'whorl' for the right ringer finger... which appears to be mistake.

(I can understand why he describes the left index finger as a 'tented arch' - though formally... according the FBI's paradigma it is indeed a 'radial loop')

I recalled this thread (relative to a current discussion) and took a closer look at Disney's left index fingerprint. Interestingly Richard describes it as a Tented Arch and Martijn describes it as a Radial Loop.

His officially taken fingerprints show it labeled as a Radial Tented Arch.





From another source Disney's print takes on a different perspective, the looping quality disappears and you can see the radially bending radiant creating the Tented Arch pattern.



I bring this up now as it's relative to our conversation in this thread:

Life purpose reading please from fingerprints
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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:47 pm

Patti wrote:
I recalled this thread (relative to a current discussion) and took a closer look at Disney's left index fingerprint. Interestingly Richard describes it as a Tented Arch and Martijn describes it as a Radial Loop.

His officially taken fingerprints show it labeled as a Radial Tented Arch.

...

From another source Disney's print takes on a different perspective, the looping quality disappears and you can see the radially bending radiant creating the Tented Arch pattern.



Hi Patti,

Thanks for adding that 3th fingerprint!! Thumb up

Regarding the left index fingerprint: I think the 'labels' in the picture only illustrate that the observer was not able to make a decision. Because the 'radial tented arch'-label that you mentioned... is not an offical label to qualify a fingerprint!

So, I think the observer only added the signs of the 'tented arch' + 'radial loop' because he/she was not sure who to qualify that print.

Anyway, when I look at the details of all 3 fingerprints that we collected for the left index finger (see the picture below), then I can observed a 'triradius' + a loop ridge line (around the red ridge line, the termination of that line represents the 'core' in this fingerprint: which results in: 'ridge count' = 1).



I think these observations confirm that this fingerprint should formally be qualified as a 'radial loop' - maybe it will be helpfull for you to take a look at no.179 and no.180 in "The Science f Fingerprints": then you will probably be able to recognize that this example has likewise characteristics.

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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:51 pm

Thanks Martijn for your response.

I've looked at my larger (on my computer) image and there really isn't a single returning looping ridge. It only *appears* to be looping.

It is obvious there is a central triradius and there is an upthrust ridge that appears to bend at the top to the radial side of the finger. This upthrust with a bending tip was mentioned in the same book. Don't have time to look now, but will soon.

I'll trace a larger image later and upload it.

Patti
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Tented Arch with Radial features

Post  Patti on Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:43 pm

Hi Martijn,

I agree that Radial Tented Arch is not an official category.

Do you recall a number of years ago in a different forum there was a similar discussion about the concept of Radial Whorls? One side of the argument was that only loops could be radial and the other side pointed out obvious characteristics that clearly to the experienced eye showed otherwise. Such a radial nature of a whorl can be seen here -
in the close up of the thumbs of the girl in this article on one of my web sites.

Your eye seeing a radial loop also gives credence to the apparent visual nature of it's radial tendency. Lynn posted that she right away saw it as radial.

This image below is a great example of a fingerprint analyst's Rorschach Test. You can find a concentric whorl, both ulnar and radial loops, an arch, a tented arch........and even long before its time QR Code! lol!




The next image from the same fingerprinting session was taken in January, 1937 (Disney was born in December,1901). Loops here would have to be filled in and completed with the imagination. Abutting ridges do not count as loops.



This third image is from the book "Lion Paws" and is dated 4/14/33. I have colored the Type lines in purple. The upthrusts are in blue and in green a short branch that does not clearly loop. This same white space is visible in 1937. We would have to guess if its due to a minute scar or if it is natural. This green colored ridge could also be imagined to continue not to form a loop but an arch over the short upthrust.


In "The Science of Fingerprints" page 39 it states "The presence of the slightest upthrust at the center of the impression is enough to make a pattern a tented arch." (see figure 178)




Patti


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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:23 am

Patti wrote:Thanks Martijn for your response.

I've looked at my larger (on my computer) image and there really isn't a single returning looping ridge. It only *appears* to be looping.
...
Patti, thanks again for your efforts... but it appears that you have overlooked 2 significant details (only 1 point relates to the inconsistancies that can be obverved in those prints).

Let us focuss first on the most clear of the 3 examples (see also the picture below):

1 - The red line clearly indicates that there is 'single returning looping ridge' (see the first picture below - the red dot = the 'core' of this fingerprints; by the way, there is also a complete ridge line outside this red line);

2 - And we should be aware that the other 2 fingerprint examples indicate that in this example in some zones the ink did not attach very well to the paper: the three green lines are an example of this; NOTICE: in the original (2nd picture below) there appears to be a 'hole' at the location of the upper of those three green lines, but the other two fingerprint examples clearly show that there is very likely not really a 'hole' at al: simply because in both other example we can see that thick lines!!!






By the way, I have another point of feedback regarding your use of colours: because your use of color suggests that the yellow line is sort of CROSSED by the two blue lines (see again the picture below)... but as you know: ridge lines can never CROSS (we both can understand this with our knowledge about how the ridge lines develop as a result of volar pad shape & size).

So your colour-choice illustrates that you have made a fundamental mistake in your observations: you have attributed value to the WIDTH of the ridge lines in that zone, resulting in that the yellow line suddenly changes it's direction (according your colours): but by fact it can simply be described as a ridge line that is positioned around my red line - featured with 2 bifurications: at the locations where your blue lines are connected!

(I can add that the other 2 examples of this fingerprint suggest that some parts of the fingerprint in that zone did not became manifest as ink on the paper... just like the 3 none-holes that I described with the green lines!!)


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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:30 am


This is helpfull to avoid any confusion regarding what I just described (I have drawn the same red line, the 'core' + the 3 green lines in the first example, plus a copy of the original... where you can see that the location of the 3 green lines is closed):





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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:23 am

I wonder why you have chosen to use the poorest quality of prints to try and prove your point??

Anyway,

one upthrust trumps your idea of a loop, (if any).

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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:25 am

p.s.:
BTW.... in ink prints you should be tracing the black inked ridges not the white space inbetween.
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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:34 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Thanks Martijn for your response.

I've looked at my larger (on my computer) image and there really isn't a single returning looping ridge. It only *appears* to be looping.
...
Patti, thanks again for your efforts... but it appears that you have overlooked 2 significant details (only 1 point relates to the inconsistancies that can be obverved in those prints).

Let us focuss first on the most clear of the 3 examples (see also the picture below):

1 - The red line clearly indicates that there is 'single returning looping ridge' (see the first picture below - the red dot = the 'core' of this fingerprints; by the way, there is also a complete ridge line outside this red line);

2 - And we should be aware that the other 2 fingerprint examples indicate that in this example in some zones the ink did not attach very well to the paper: the three green lines are an example of this; NOTICE: in the original (2nd picture below) there appears to be a 'hole' at the location of the upper of those three green lines, but the other two fingerprint examples clearly show that there is very likely not really a 'hole' at al: simply because in both other example we can see that thick lines!!!






By the way, I have another point of feedback regarding your use of colours: because your use of color suggests that the yellow line is sort of CROSSED by the two blue lines (see again the picture below)... but as you know: ridge lines can never CROSS (we both can understand this with our knowledge about how the ridge lines develop as a result of volar pad shape & size).

So your colour-choice illustrates that you have made a fundamental mistake in your observations: you have attributed value to the WIDTH of the ridge lines in that zone, resulting in that the yellow line suddenly changes it's direction (according your colours): but by fact it can simply be described as a ridge line that is positioned around my red line - featured with 2 bifurications: at the locations where your blue lines are connected!

(I can add that the other 2 examples of this fingerprint suggest that some parts of the fingerprint in that zone did not became manifest as ink on the paper... just like the 3 none-holes that I described with the green lines!!)


I think both of the prints from the 1937 fingerprinting leaves a lot to the *imagination* and are not useful at all for trying to prove via minute details whether we're looking at a tented arch or a radial loop. I mentioned that in my comment. My yellow lines were intended show show these ridges are not part of a radial loop.

Please see if you can achieve the same result with the better quality image from "Lion Paws".

Thanks.
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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:01 am

Patti wrote:I wonder why you have chosen to use the poorest quality of prints to try and prove your point??

Anyway,

one upthrust trumps your idea of a loop, (if any).


confused

Patti, what are you trying to say here?

Sounds you call the most blurred, dark print... the best quality???
Without any doubt, the 'lightest' print presents by far the best quality... simply because we can follow the ridges line relatively well. And we can use the other two to check if all 'holes' are really who they appear to be .... and I have show that this is obviously not the case.

PS. I hope you have noticed that in my last post I have illustrated the same points that I made regarding the 'lightest' example, in one of the other two prints. So, I was never focussed on any single print: my points are based on all 3 prints.... do you really want me to post a likewise picture for the third print? (In advance: I know that there is one 'hole' in that print... but it is so obviously that that 'hole' is the result of a problem with the ink attachment to the paper!)


Very Happy So, you want me to focuss on the black lines...?
No problem at all ... I have added the orange line on the (black) ridge line that I already mentioned in my former post:


(Actually, that in my writing that is where I was always focussed on... but I started to describe you the lines in between the black lines because you are putting value to 'holes' that are not confirmed as 'holes' in all three fingerprints)



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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:18 am


Patti, you asked... so I deliver.

(But really, as you should be able to see... in this fingerprint most ridges have a small overlap because they are too 'fat'... due to the use of too much ink. So we can never be sure what we actually see here... that is why I focussed more on the other 2 examples, but I never excluded this one... as you can see!!!)


Patti, now that I have presented this orange line in all three fingerprint examples... are you still denying the presence of a 'looping ridge line'???






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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:38 am


I would like to add another observation:

In the picture that I presented earlier, one can see that the 'holes' are not consistent in their size nor their position. And though there appears to be a 'hole' in the center- and right example... the truth is that the location of both holes does not overlap!!!

This indicates that the ridges probably have some kind of irregularity in that zone of the skin... but three fingerprint together definitely point out that there is a 'looping ridge line' around the 'core'.

I think this case clearly proofs that one should not attribute any significant value to such rather small 'inconsistant' details: always focuss on the COMPLETE PATTERN - though of course: details are important... but they need to be very clear to become significant!!



Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:33 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:11 am

You still have not properly illustrated a loop.

I very clearly see a tented arch. Again, according to "The Science of Fingerprints" an upthrust is the qualifying factor.



<edit> It's funny you thought this was the least clear image. I thought it was remarkable to even be able to see the pores in some of the ridges and this is from a book in the 30's. Renald's book also has a hand print of Disney's right hand and when I enlarge that image greatly, I end of with the dots from the printing of the graphic and this image from Nellie Meier's book held up very well being scanned and enlarged.
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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:26 am

Patti wrote:You still have not properly illustrated a loop.

I very clearly see a tented arch. Again, according to "The Science of Fingerprints" an upthrust is the qualifying factor.

Dear Patti, what do you exactly mean with the word "properly"...???

I have very carefully drawn the 'looping ridge line' for all three examples... so I have shared all details, and you never disqualified any detail in my drawings.

What else do you need? The loop is in inside each of the 3 drawings!

lol!









And as a reminder, the triradii are featured in this picture:



Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:33 am

You are a drawing a loop that isn't there. You have drawn at times in the white areas and not on the black ridges. You are tracing a loop that you wish to see, but isn't there. I see what you keep illustrating, but while you draw your loop, you completely ignore other ridges that are part of the pattern you have drawn from and have nothing to do with a loop.
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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:49 am

Here I have reversed the image making all the ridges *white*. Then I colored in each row of ridges a different color (no significance to the colors). No loop.


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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:02 am

Patti wrote:You are a drawing a loop that isn't there. You have drawn at times in the white areas and not on the black ridges. You are tracing a loop that you wish to see, but isn't there. I see what you keep illustrating, but while you draw your loop, you completely ignore other ridges that are part of the pattern you have drawn from and have nothing to do with a loop.

Dear Patti,

First of all, I have explained why I have have used the green lines (which are all three indeed in the white areas). But you didn't respond on those details so I assumed that you accepted that my observations regarding the 'holes'.

But actually, did you notice that in this example there is no 'white area' at all inside the orange line? NOTICE: I only continued to use the green line for reasons of consistancy!!


But hey ... hand dance ... you ask, so I deliver:

In this example there is not a single part of the orange line written on what you called 'white areas' (see also the original picture: the 2nd picture below): do you still think it is not a 'looping ridge line'?

And if so.... can you please explain why you think it is not a 'looping ridge line'?





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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:59 am

Truly I am trying to see how you are not seeing, or are ignoring the fact there is an upthrust. Perhaps instead of focusing on the rules for a loop, check out the rules for a tented arch, particularly pages 39 and 40.

A reversed image where the ridges are lighter and the grooves and empty spaces are darker:



I'm holding my position on this being a tented arch. We will just have to agree to disagree.

I appreciate your efforts Martijn,

Patti
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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:24 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:You are a drawing a loop that isn't there. You have drawn at times in the white areas and not on the black ridges. You are tracing a loop that you wish to see, but isn't there. I see what you keep illustrating, but while you draw your loop, you completely ignore other ridges that are part of the pattern you have drawn from and have nothing to do with a loop.

Dear Patti,

First of all, I have explained why I have have used the green lines (which are all three indeed in the white areas). But you didn't respond on those details so I assumed that you accepted that my observations regarding the 'holes'.

But actually, did you notice that in this example there is no 'white area' at all inside the orange line? NOTICE: I only continued to use the green line for reasons of consistancy!!


But hey ... hand dance ... you ask, so I deliver:

In this example there is not a single part of the orange line written on what you called 'white areas' (see also the original picture: the 2nd picture below): do you still think it is not a 'looping ridge line'?

And if so.... can you please explain why you think it is not a 'looping ridge line'?





Wait!!!! I think I see something else.....

.
.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.



lol!

(this print has too many blotchy spots and can not be credibly used to accurately or reliably describe any kind of pattern - or rather perhaps it could be used to describe any kind of pattern or glyph)

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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:58 pm

Patti wrote:

lol!

(this print has too many blotchy spots and can not be credibly used to accurately or reliably describe any kind of pattern - or rather perhaps it could be used to describe any kind of pattern or glyph)

Patti
Hi Patti,

It took a while before I could respond but I think I am now able to solve a large part of our problem here: because I found evidence that you misunderstood how an 'upthrust' can create a tented arch (point 4).

But first, I would like to point out a few other issues related to inconsistancies in your drawings & arguments (see point 1, 2 & 3):


1) In you last comment the inconsistancy in your arguments becomes obvious:

If you are using the quality of the print as an argument to reject this print completely - which if a fair argument - then you should have done the same with the print that you introduced in this discussion.

I think it is very obvious that in large parts of that print we are faced with the exactly the same problem:




scratch So, now it's a mystery to me why you described 'your print' as the best print. While the ZOOMED picture clearly shows that many of the zones between the actual ridges are completely filled with ink in the crucial part of the fingerprint.

Can you explain that ???


Only one print doesn't confront us with this problem: the 'lightest' example.

But in the 'lightest' example we are confronted with another problem because in that print not all ridges appear to have been 'printed' with ink on the paper completely.

Nevertheless, if we focuss on a 20x ZOOMED version:



... then we can actually see that there for sure is a 'looping ridge line'. Thought, at 5 points the ink dots connections can be described as weak... but there is no objective reason at all to assume that at any of these points one can speak of 'terminating ridge line'.

Yes, at point 5 we can see a small completely white space. However, I think that even at that point there is NO REASON at all to assume that this concerns the terrmination of a ridge line!!

SIMPLY BECAUSE: Afterall... we are only looking at 'ink dots': the amount of ink-attachment on the paper not only depends on the structure of the ridges... it also depends on the amount of ink available at those points!!



And I have add a few more line to highlight the other major ridge lines in this 20x ZOOMED prints:





2) Regarding your earlier comment:

Patti wrote:You are a drawing a loop that isn't there. You have drawn at times in the white areas and not on the black ridges. You are tracing a loop that you wish to see, but isn't there. I see what you keep illustrating, but while you draw your loop, you completely ignore other ridges that are part of the pattern you have drawn from and have nothing to do with a loop.

Nonsense!

During this discussion you have described many completely irrelevant details. For example: the reversed-picture of the fingerprint that you submitted doesn't make sense at all... why on earth would you want to make a reversed image of a picture that is lacking in quality on itself???

Resulting in a plate full of colour-full spagetti... including an 'orange triradius' in the center of your plate:




3) Banana waving ... don't you ever get bothered by the many inconsistancies in your drawings?

For example: it is even a bit worrisome to see that you do not get bothered about the inconsistancy with your former drawings: because in one of your earlier drawings below the yellow line actually crosses the 'orange triradius' that you have drawn in the picture above.





[b] 4) Banana waving ... and you wrote the following words with this picture:



The upthrusts are in blue and in green a short branch that does not clearly loop.


Patti, I now recognize that you completely misunderstood how an 'upthrust' can signal the presence of a tented arch.

Because 'The Science of Fingerprints' describes on page 33:

"An upthrust is an ending ridge of any length rising at a sufficient degree from the horizontal plane."

So, only the lower of your two blue lines could potentially be described as an 'upthrust'. But my 'looping ridge line' picture shows that none of the green lines can be described as an 'upthrust' either.

But even if it had been an upthrust, it is not involved at all in creating the 'looping ridge line' that I described!!

And therefore there really is no (clear) 'upthrust' at all in any of the three variants of this fingerprint!

So, I just 'proofed' how your comments about an 'upthrust' are not only inaccurate... but also irrelevant!! Just like it would have been completely irrelevant in a fingerprint that has many looping ridge lines with one upthrust!!!


And I think it should be obvious by now that the relatively large 'white zone' in the fingerprint example that you submitted... is not a result of terminating ridge line, nor any upthrust:



Instead it can simply be described as a result of a problem with the attachement of the ink on the paper - and this is supported by the inconsistancies with the other 2 fingerprint examples.



Finally.... after making these very specified additional observations, there is not much space left for further discussion because now it is very obvious for me that you made a few big mistakes.

But anyway. yes we can for sure disagree about the following:

- You concluded that 'your' picture presents the best quality;
- You attributed significant value to zones where the ink did not attach properly in any of the 3 fingerprints;
- And your drawings include many inconsistancies (but you appear not to have noticed them because you NEVER mentioned any of them in your analyses).

However, after looking at all details once again, I think you made quite a few fundamental mistakes regarding how to recognize a tented arch:

- Your comments about 'your uptrusts' can simply be described as unfounded because formally there are no 'upthrusts' at all in this fingerprint (I have just described why I needed to reject both examples that you described);
- And your concept of how any of 'your upthrusts' could potentially serve to qualify this fingerprint as a tented arch was incorrect, because the lower of 'your upthrust' is itself not a part of 'looping ridge line' in this fingerprint!


However, I do would like to thank you for your efforts + sharing your thoughts & observations. Because this discussion became actually very helpful for me to get a sharper understanding of how an 'upthrust' can make a tented arch. Thumbs up!

But for sure... lol! ... sorry Patti, not in this case!


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Martijn van Mensvoort
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Re: X - WALT DISNEY - One of his fingerprints shows an unusual characteristic!

Post  Patti on Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:27 pm

My main argument against your loop argument is that you insist on completing the BLANK spaces in the way that pleases you.

My as you call it spagetti image is extremely accurate and there is ABSOLUTELY no loop! None whatsoever.

If you look closely you can even see the rounded edges of the ending of the ridges that you are trying to make a loop. You can also see the upthrust sits on the horizontal ridge and yes, it forms a triradius. You have been drawing a second triradius to the left instead.

Color in the image below without ignoring the actual endings of each and every ridge at the center and show me a loop. Use transparent shading. Include the Type lines.

Martijn, I have truly tried to see the loop you draw, but it really isn't there. And yes, I do disqualify the blown up distorted, blotchy images you are presenting from the 1937 prints.

Oh...nooo!


Patti



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