I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Lynn wrote:

Patti wrote:In your description, Lynn, you are adding two energies. The leaning fingers plus the position of the thumb. The held in thumb shows insecurity in and of itself. It's retreating inward. While the fingers are leaning outward. In this situation, the thumb base has failed in the radial section (under the index finger) and the index has nothing solid to stand up on. Still I would not interpret this as to introversion and extroversion.

I'm adding more than two really - the energy of all the fingers and the thumb! When all the fingers lean to radial, the thumb always has a narrow angle. Yes, it all shows insecurity. and yes the index has nothing solid to stand up on! So the sense of self in index has no solid foundation. The fingers are reaching out to the world for support. If you stood leaning forwards like that, you'd need propping up so that you didn't fall over!
that's the way I see it anyway.
As I've said before, I don't think I understand extraversion / introversion very well.

Ah, nice to see you finally talking about the leaning of the indivual fingers Lynn!


PS. While you associate the narrow thumb angle with 'insecurity', Christopher actually describes thos people as: "these are more or less introverted people" (more details in my much longer reply earlier this evening)

Sucom wrote:Hi Patti

Patti wrote:In your description, Lynn, you are adding two energies. The leaning fingers plus the position of the thumb. The held in thumb shows insecurity in and of itself. It's retreating inward. While the fingers are leaning outward. In this situation, the thumb base has failed in the radial section (under the index finger) and the index has nothing solid to stand up on. Still I would not interpret this as to introversion and extroversion.

Do leaning fingers automatically create a held in thumb? I'm not totally convinced because I have seen quite a few hands where this is not the case at all. True, it may create a narrower angle, but regarding retreating inward.....the thumb would have to be held particularly closely to the palm, even perhaps held 'inside' the palm to suggest such a retreat.

I do agree, however, that if the thumb does retreat into the palm, then the index finger truly would have nothing to stand on.
Sue

Patti wrote:I understand your thoughts on this Lynn.

The confusing aspects with introversion and extroversion is the mixing of temporary states of mind with personality types, in this discussion. I have seen radial leaning fingers with the thumb not pulled inwards. There are probably samples here in this forum. In this case the index often appears to be sitting on a pedestal.

Patti wrote:

Sucom wrote:Hi Patti

Patti wrote:In your description, Lynn, you are adding two energies. The leaning fingers plus the position of the thumb. The held in thumb shows insecurity in and of itself. It's retreating inward. While the fingers are leaning outward. In this situation, the thumb base has failed in the radial section (under the index finger) and the index has nothing solid to stand up on. Still I would not interpret this as to introversion and extroversion.

Do leaning fingers automatically create a held in thumb? I'm not totally convinced because I have seen quite a few hands where this is not the case at all. True, it may create a narrower angle, but regarding retreating inward.....the thumb would have to be held particularly closely to the palm, even perhaps held 'inside' the palm to suggest such a retreat.

I do agree, however, that if the thumb does retreat into the palm, then the index finger truly would have nothing to stand on.
Sue

Hi Sue!

I have seen them too, I just uploaded an example of what I was describing in an earlier post about the index sitting up on a pedestal.

Sucom wrote:

Patti wrote:

Sucom wrote:Hi Patti

Patti wrote:In your description, Lynn, you are adding two energies. The leaning fingers plus the position of the thumb. The held in thumb shows insecurity in and of itself. It's retreating inward. While the fingers are leaning outward. In this situation, the thumb base has failed in the radial section (under the index finger) and the index has nothing solid to stand up on. Still I would not interpret this as to introversion and extroversion.

Do leaning fingers automatically create a held in thumb? I'm not totally convinced because I have seen quite a few hands where this is not the case at all. True, it may create a narrower angle, but regarding retreating inward.....the thumb would have to be held particularly closely to the palm, even perhaps held 'inside' the palm to suggest such a retreat.

I do agree, however, that if the thumb does retreat into the palm, then the index finger truly would have nothing to stand on.
Sue

Hi Sue!

I have seen them too, I just uploaded an example of what I was describing in an earlier post about the index sitting up on a pedestal.

Hi Patti

Yes, I just saw them! Good job!
While speaking, I have to tell you that I have just started reading this topic through from the beginning and really like some of the things you wrote on the first page. Am in total agreement with you.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:I understand your thoughts on this Lynn.

The confusing aspects with introversion and extroversion is the mixing of temporary states of mind with personality types, in this discussion. I have seen radial leaning fingers with the thumb not pulled inwards. There are probably samples here in this forum. In this case the index often appears to be sitting on a pedestal.

Patti, have you so far included Duke's guidelines for leaning fingers op page 70 and 71?


(I think Dukes describes that by principle one should always consider the leaning of individual fngers seperately... and he describes 10 elements for a start that can be used. I don't think that there is much reason for confusion at all - unless one starts adopting principles for leaning fingers in general and use it combined with the elemental system without checking whether these actually are confirmed by the basics of the elemental system... after reading the details in Duke's work and Christopher's work, it appears that Johnny and Lynn have addopted a 'classic' principle that does not get confirmed by the principles used in elemental hand reading regarding the leaning of the individual fingers & the thumb. NOTICE: I have talked about more details in my long reply to Lynn earlier this evening)

Sucom wrote:

First, I tend to agree with you about thinking, feeling and willing. This sounds very much like Greg Bradens views in that existence relates to thinking (the idea), feeling (the idea) and then ... this is where he is slightly different but on similar lines, creating or allowing the idea to manifest. However, this is similar to the thumb because palmistry tells us that we use the qualities of our thumb to shape our world. The difference I see here is that Greg Braden, and others, are telling us that it is the thought and the feeling which creates sufficient desire to allow the idea to manifest. This is slightly different from palmistry's idea that we, ourselves, as individuals and separate beings, create something ourselves. I don't actually think we are individual, separate beings; I believe we are all very connected, more than perhaps realised and I use the word connection as being connected to everything, not just what appears to be living beings. As Lynn mentioned early on in the discussion, the whole idea of every single thing, animate or inanimate having a consciousness is an idea I wholeheartedly go along with. Everything is living, the ground we stand on, the trees, the rocks, the air, the sky, everything.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:Arch = finger cast off from palm?

Yep!

Patti wrote:

Sucom wrote:

First, I tend to agree with you about thinking, feeling and willing. This sounds very much like Greg Bradens views in that existence relates to thinking (the idea), feeling (the idea) and then ... this is where he is slightly different but on similar lines, creating or allowing the idea to manifest. However, this is similar to the thumb because palmistry tells us that we use the qualities of our thumb to shape our world. The difference I see here is that Greg Braden, and others, are telling us that it is the thought and the feeling which creates sufficient desire to allow the idea to manifest. This is slightly different from palmistry's idea that we, ourselves, as individuals and separate beings, create something ourselves. I don't actually think we are individual, separate beings; I believe we are all very connected, more than perhaps realised and I use the word connection as being connected to everything, not just what appears to be living beings. As Lynn mentioned early on in the discussion, the whole idea of every single thing, animate or inanimate having a consciousness is an idea I wholeheartedly go along with. Everything is living, the ground we stand on, the trees, the rocks, the air, the sky, everything.

Sue, your post is well said. Agree that there is a form of 'living energy' in everything - it may not be what we know as biological life, but there is vital energy there none the less. I also agree we are all connected, and with the idea that feeling must be involved for manifestation of one's desires/ideas.

Sucom wrote:You're going to have to forgive me, I'm still only on page 4 of this topic and already I'm thinking

So my next thoughts are:

Martijn, you said: "So, in return I could ask you... after making these references, how can one deny that the pinky is associated with the outer world???"
...
.

Lynn wrote:I have run out of suggestions. I think I've reached the end of my headline.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Lynn wrote:

Patti wrote:This illustration is from "Mudras" Gertrud Hirschi copied from the book Handlesen by G. Hurlimann (1996)

Another example of dividing the hand.

Thanks very much for sharing this also.

Lynn, I hope you noticed that the words 'surrounding world' associated with mars-positive in this map.

For example, when a person uses the rethorics: 'everything is God'... this would raise the question: 'how to recognize God?' And one could also argue from a fundamental view that if 'everything is God'... this would implicate: the devil = God.

And therefore I think that the words 'everything is God' are likely to turn out to be recognized as (subjective) 'associative' nonsense.... because those words are likely not much more than a projection of the person's personal concept of God. After all, it's simply impossible to proof that 'everything is God'... even from a filosophical point of view!

Sucom wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Lynn wrote:

Patti wrote:This illustration is from "Mudras" Gertrud Hirschi copied from the book Handlesen by G. Hurlimann (1996)

Another example of dividing the hand.

Thanks very much for sharing this also.

Lynn, I hope you noticed that the words 'surrounding world' associated with mars-positive in this map.

Ah, I found this interesting Martijn. Upper mars does indeed deal with resistance which, by definition, must be associated with the outer world in some way. But are we talking about resistance originating within and being transmitted to the outside world, perhaps as a reaction within to the outside world? Whatever goes on around a person in his external environment, any reaction he feels to this is purely his own and can only affect him at a personal level. In this way, anything that causes him to suffer from his own reaction is entirely a personal thing felt within. This would make him the creator of his own suffering. No-one else can suffer as a result of his own reaction, only him. For me, this is an inner world situation.

Sucom wrote:Just looking at this for a moment, my first thought here is ‘Why, if the fingers are considered a mental extension of the storehouses of energy below, would the index finger be water if it is sitting on a fire quadrant?. Or…. I could instead ask, why is the fire quadrant found below a water quality finger? I ask this in terms of the elemental system rather than any other system, because I didn’t study the elemental system in the way you did and have adopted a slightly different approach as a result.

Sucom wrote:I agree that if the index finger is leaning towards the radial, it is saying ‘me, me, me’. Regarding the outgoing personality with the widely spread fingers, I’m not sure that fingers would automatically be found close together if leaning towards the radial side of the palm. There is a possibility that the fingers could be wider apart, although admittedly, not as wide as they would otherwise be in straight fingers. So there could be ‘some’ independence here.

Sucom wrote:“Also with radial leaning fingers, the thumb is held at a narrow angle so it's not like the assertion of eg a strong handed business person actively asserting their fire into the world, taking responsibility and creating change, it's more something they strive for but don't have the energy or motivation to do, hence rely on externals to do it for them.”

Regarding the narrow or narrower angle of the thumb as a result of the leaning fingers, couldn’t this suggest less flexibility, less openness, less desire to take in the needs of others and more desire to hang on to their own projection?
I agree that it may suggest some kind of insecurity. A narrow angle of the thumb suggests to me a less flexible way of looking at life, a more closed personality.

Sucom wrote:Also, you mentioned actively asserting their fire, and yet you describe the index finger in a ‘watery’ way. Are you saying there is likely to be a mix of fire and water here?
Obviously I can go with that idea because I believe the elements are very likely to be blended together in many areas of the hands. I don’t think it is possible to absolutely separate and divide them. This is perhaps one reason why I don’t hold on to just one or another hand reading approach. I have always tended to take something of each and blend them together to create my own version of possibilities.

One other thing that comes to mind – how would you adapt your interpretation in a person who had leaning fingers but also a particularly strong thumb, a firm consistency and good colour in the hands? Would you still consider them to lack the energy or motivation? Would this person truly rely on externals?

Sorry for all the questions but I enjoy a good discussion
Sue

Sucom wrote:Hi Martijn
I'm only just starting to get to grips with this topic and have started reading from the first page. It's so long!!! It's going to take ages.

I have to take it one step at a time because there is so much information so please bear with me while I try to catch up.

First, I tend to agree with you about thinking, feeling and willing. This sounds very much like Greg Bradens views in that existence relates to thinking (the idea), feeling (the idea) and then ... this is where he is slightly different but on similar lines, creating or allowing the idea to manifest. However, this is similar to the thumb because palmistry tells us that we use the qualities of our thumb to shape our world. The difference I see here is that Greg Braden, and others, are telling us that it is the thought and the feeling which creates sufficient desire to allow the idea to manifest. This is slightly different from palmistry's idea that we, ourselves, as individuals and separate beings, create something ourselves. I don't actually think we are individual, separate beings; I believe we are all very connected, more than perhaps realised and I use the word connection as being connected to everything, not just what appears to be living beings. As Lynn mentioned early on in the discussion, the whole idea of every single thing, animate or inanimate having a consciousness is an idea I wholeheartedly go along with. Everything is living, the ground we stand on, the trees, the rocks, the air, the sky, everything.

What I struggle with, so far, is the idea that the ulna side of the palm is connected to the outer world. You mention that the air finger on the ulna side of the palm is related to communication and I agree with this, but .....your version of communication is slightly different from mine. Yes, it's true that in communicating we connect with other beings, but, and this is a big but, we don't necessarily need language to communicate. We can communicate through other means and just using my own experience as an example, communication can come through music. Music and sound is a language also but it doesn't have to involve others. Sound just 'is'. Sound waves are energy and energy surrounds us. We feel it, it permeates through everything that is. Sound energy can connect us to the tides, the sea, the wind blowing through the trees, harmony within the body, gravity, waves, feeling, heart beat...... so many things I could mention here and all of these things can relate to the individual or to the masses. Both inner and outer, I would say, because we are vibrating energy beings and so is the sound. It all vibrates and is all connected. We are energy and we are surrounded by energy. How can it relate 'only' to the outer world?

Another thing I'm not too sure about is making a chart which doesn't include, or doesn't appear to include traditional palmistry. Maybe you are trying to move away from traditional beliefs but I feel it is important to remember here that many, if not most of us, actually gained much of our knowledge through this medium. We know that life has existed for thousands of years whereas science and modern hand analysis is a great deal younger; still in its infancy you could perhaps say. What I'm trying to say is, is it right to use only those views taken from more modern sources. For example, you mention psychologists and make regular use of Johnny Fincham's terminology of the peacock finger and the mirror finger or ivory tower. If caution is not exercised, although these terms may indeed represent traditional palmistry interpretations to a varying degree, by using them alone, and forgetting previous terminology which is what actually brought us to this point, could possibly allow the basic, underlying message to be lost.

I would have to argue, would it be right to lose the original words? This would be like, for example, rewriting the bible based on one's own perception of the meaning of the original words. Yes, I know, this has already happened. This doesn't make it right though, does it?

All I'm seeing so far are elements and psychology and I find this worrying. What about the basics that brought us all to this point in our hand reading skills?

These are my initial thoughts from reading the first two pages of this topic, so do excuse me if I appear to be back tracking, but I would like to make my initial thoughts hear, nevertheless.

Hi Sue, some quick responses (to your interesting input )

- but first I want you to know that my major objective in this topic is to discuss the key-words in the hand reading literature; and in this perspective I don't want to spent too much time on personal associations when these are not directly connected with the major key-words in the hand reading books - I hope you understand this in the perspective of the charts that I have presented- NOTICE: in the latest 2 charts I have featured the names of hand readers with the key-words that I have selected!);

- I understand you association regarding the deeper purpose of music, but music does not belong to the core-definition of what communication is all about. By the way, in the field of hand reading music usually gets more associated with the ring finger (I am sure that you will recognize how music can also be recognized as an example of 'artistic-expression', and the spoken word relates more to communication than music does).

- Regarding your worries about 'classic palmistry' vs. 'modern palmistry', don't worry any book/method is welcome; actually, my latests charts also include some key-words used by Benham & Cheiro. I hope you recognize these names as representing 'traditional palmistry'? References to older authors are also very welcome... especially when they have used the 'key-words' that are featured in my latest chart!

- Please be aware, my objective is to get key-words featured in my chart that together create a consistent story for the full hand... but I think you already have understood this: thank you for your confirming (fundamental) feedback about the key-words 'thinking', 'feeling' and 'willing' (sorry, I am not familiar with Gregg Braden's work but spiritual topics can in generally always be seen from many perspectives) - but I can also reports that those 3 words already were replaced by more common used words (I present another copy of my latest picture below).

(Sue, I hope my feedback will encourage you to read further through this discussion... and feel free not to respond to this post!)

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Lynn wrote:
I have made a fundamental mistake really in projecting & trying to translate C.Soc methods of quadrant analysis onto Johnny's hand map, because Johnny doesn't use quadrant analysis these days. So, I guess we really shouldn't be comparing the two methods. I only used it to try and understand Johnny's keywords in conjunction with leaning fingers.

Glad that you now recognize your fundamental mistake, and thank you for acknowledging!

Interesting that you now describe that you have been 'projecting', but that was not what I described... nor suggested. I only described that you used two different methods as if there are two different systems, but I think before this discussion you perceived Johnny's books as representative for the elemental system that you were both taught .

However, Lynn, yesterday you stated that this discussion has hardly changed anything in your perceptions. But now you are sometimes talking as if Johnny presents a completely different system!

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Now, regarding your explanation why you associate ulnar leaning fingers with 'introversion'... I find it stricking that in your new attempt you only talk about the quadrants while this is basically actually concerns a matter of 5 individual leaning fingers!

(Correct?)

regarding Johnny's vocabulary you are using different 'reasoning' in order to explain that how the large 'Ivory Tower' explains the 'introverted' ulnar leaning fingers. For, regarding Johnny's guidelines you talk about the size of the quadrant.. while in your own perspective you basically only start talking about the vertical principle.

And I don't recognize how this change of perspective (quadrant approach vs vertical approach) can be recognized as consistent.

This appers to me as a rather 'opportune' style of reasoning, with an underlying inconsisency.

Because obviously, the large 'fire quadrant' implicates the opposite of a large 'Ivory Tower'....

Martijn (admin) wrote:[color=darkred]Lynn, I hope you allow me to direct your attention back to Dukes' work... because the issue of leaning fingers has been described by Dukes on page 70 + 71. And Dukes describes the basic principle regarding how to approach the topic of leaning fingers as follows:

"If a finger leans towards another, it reveals that the element seeks fulfillment through another element. In your interpretation you must combine the qualities of the two elements in order to describe that person's consciousness."

(Lynn, I hope allow me to describe this as 'principle no.1')

This first principle perfectly makes sense to me, and I think it concerns a principle that is commonly used in most hand reading systems.


Then Dukes describes on page 71 in the first picture another interesting principle, where 'wide spacing of all fingers' gets associated with 'extroverted, active temperament'; this also concerns a commonly adopted principle in the various fields of hand reading.

(Lynn, I hope you allow me for a moment to describe this as principle no.2)

However,... interestingly, I think this implicates for when the fingers are leaning towards each other this by principle is associated with 'introverted, passive temperament'. And Johnny described this more explicit in his books.

( Correct?)

Now, I think that it makes sense to combine these (basic) principles 1 and 2 in order to find out how to interpretate the leaning of fingers - NOTICE: principle 2 is kind of the first specific example that Dukes describes... so it's importance should not be underestimated.
( Correct?)

Now, regarding radial leaning fingers... I think this suggests a combination of: 'all leaning fingers towards each other' + earth leaning to water + fire leaning to earth + and air leaning to fire.

Let's take a look at how Dukes interpretates these individual aspects:

- all leaning fingers towards each other = introverted, passive temperament
- earth leaning to water = (... earth seeking fulfillment through water)
- fire leaning to earth = (...fire seeking fulfillment through earth)
- fire leaning to air = speech or communication is inhibited or cautious.

Lynn, it's hard for me to specify the 2nd and 3rd aspect any further (with writings from Dukes, Fincham & Jones)... but at first sight this doesn't look like 'more outer' or 'more extraverted' at all - because the 1st and 4th actually point towards 'more introverted'.

Correct?

But there is more... because yesterday you mentioned (in response to my two quadrant picture) that when fingers leaning to the radial side the thumb usually gets more close the palm... you refered to an example of a water hand featured with a narrow angle in Johnny's book.

Interestingly, such a thumb is actually considered as another 'introverted' quality; Christopher writes:

"A narrow-angeld thumb indicates a more timid and retiring personality, someone who keeps more to themselves rather than making a dramatic impact on the world around us."

So, Lynn... regarding leaning fingers in specific towards the one side or the other, the elemental system does not appear to provide the basic elements to associate this with outward/inward... nor with introversion/extraversion... because Dukes actually does describe the basic-principle when leaning fingers get associated with extroversion (page 70):

"Fingers which lean away from the hand, i.e., the air or water fingers, demonstrate the wish of their owners to be free from the formative structures of their mental environment."

But this principle 3 (if you allow me) is not applicable to when fingers are leaning to the one or the other side: because in those cases the pinky- or index finger is not really pointing away from the other fingers at all!

Maybe it would sometimes even much more make sense to say that the pink or index finger actually is pushed away... or that the other fingers try to 'seek fulfillment' through the other fingers. Though I realize that this really depends on the details seen in a hand.

And mabye, regarding the radial leaning fingers one could argue here that since a long (dominant) water finger is associated with introversion... it could make sense to also associate radial leaning fingers with more introverted.

However, when I then get back to your quadrantial analysis... then it becomes clear that the effects in the radial leaning fingers sort of get 'compensated' by the smaller fire quadrant!

So, in a way we see two effects due to radial leaning fingers:
- the leaning fingers point towards more introversion
- but the quadrants point to more extraversion.

Both effects compensate each other, and from my point of view if perfectly makes sense that Dukes only associates 'spreading fingers' with extraversion... and he does not not talk about 'inner' or 'outer' regarding the ulnar palm nor regarding the radial palm!

Now Lynn, I don't know what your perception of the word 'holistic' really is.

But I can only hope that this attempt of mine to apply the principles for leaning fingers + fingers lengths + quadrants... in order to put them all together resulting in a 'holistic' conclusion (where things tend to get neutralized), will make sense.

[color=darkred]PS. Your attempt to argue only via the quadrants... looks actually quite like the approach that you used regarding Johnny's description!

And your argument regarding that any quadrant analysis should actually include an analysis of all 4 quadrants... really makes me wonder about why you actually even started talking about only 1 quadrant in the perspective of 'leaning fingers' anyway!????

Yesterday I avoided to talk about the other 2 quadrants in order to not make things even more complicated, but... now I could actually argue that in the perspective of how to interpretate 'leaning fingers' it would have made much more sense if we actually had started talking about the leaning of the individual fingers - because I think it only makes sense to consider the quadrants AFTER a consideration regarding the individual fingers. Because only then an analysis can be described to represent a truely 'holistic' approach! [/b]

(Correct? )

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, have you so far included Duke's guidelines for leaning fingers op page 70 and 71?

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, have you so far included Duke's guidelines for leaning fingers op page 70 and 71?

I looked at pages 70 and 71. Dukes has simply taken 'traditional' palmistry concepts and applied elements to them. In my opinion, narrowing down and limiting the wider spectrum of indications.

In the left column on page 71 For example, the 2nd one down with little finger held close - is typically seen on people that can keep secrets - or is keeping one in the moment. According to Spier, and my observations agree, a little finger held close enjoys close snugglely relationships and are typically more committed. Dukes missed the relationship element and leaves one with the idea of cautious and inhibited.

I could go on with each. The aspects being looked at are not newly discovered features by Duke, they have just been repackaged his style and boxed into elements.

- but first I want you to know that my major objective in this topic is to discuss the key-words in the hand reading literature; and in this perspective I don't want to spent too much time on personal associations when these are not directly connected with the major key-words in the hand reading books - I hope you understand this in the perspective of the charts that I have presented- NOTICE: in the latest 2 charts I have featured the names of hand readers with the key-words that I have selected!);

Patti wrote:The aspects being looked at are not newly discovered features by Duke, they have just been repackaged his style and boxed into elements.