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Genetic testing via the hand?

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Genetic testing via the hand?

Post  mooky on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:17 am

I have not read every post in these forums (yet), so excuse my ignorance if this has already been discussed. I am interested in knowing whether the topic of genetic testing has been discussed by members. Specifically, there are now tests available from sites like 23andme.com that will (purportedly) tell you whether you are at risk for a number of health issues such as cancers or gallstones etc. as well as genetic traits, drug response and carrier status for genetic disorders.

While not cheap (several hundred dollars), that is nothing as compared to many thousands of dollars for a full genome analysis.

For instance, if someone had say 10 whorl fingerprints and simian lines, it might be worth getting the 23andme report.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Title specification)

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Re: Genetic testing via the hand?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:06 pm


Hello mooky,

Thanks for sharing this very interesting question!

Yes, genetic testing via the hand is possible... but this is really an advanced aspect of scientific hand reading - and this requires an analysis of the hand that goes far beyond the 10 fingerprints!!

Actually, in the very near future I will introduce a new concept of scientific hand reading at this forum - which relates to this topic.

At my website you can find a preview of the content for Down's syndrome (trisomy 21) and fragile-X syndrome, see:
http://www.handresearch.com/diagnostics/simian-line-down-syndrome.htm
http://www.handresearch.com/diagnostics/simian-line-fragile-x-syndrome.htm

But I have materials (phantom pictures) available for other genetic disorders as well!

I hope this relates to what you had in mind?
Anyway, you're welcome to specify your thoughts!

wave

PS. Regarding your comment/questions about the 10 fingerprints, I am quite sure that even the dermatoglyphics of the full palm do not provide enough info for genetic testing: other 'dimensions' of the hand are required to be analysed as well!

Again, I will share many more details about this topic in the near future.



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re: Genetic testing

Post  mooky on Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:09 am

Thank you for the response Martijn, but I am afraid you have misunderstood my question. I have read everything on your website and have seen hundreds of papers on the internet. For those papers usually one can only read the abstract. I understand the usefulness of using the Hand as a means to possibly spot an issue. The classic one is for Down Syndrome as you mention. Even though I have single transverse palmar creases on both hands, I know for certain that I do not have Down Syndrome. From my research I understand that there is not really a mild form of Down Syndrome. So, it does not concern me.

However, I seem to have a large number of the aspects to my palms and fingerprints that are mentioned across all those dermatoglyphic studies. Double simians, low ATD angle, low A-B ridge count, palmar loops, etc. So, when it comes to something like high functioning Autism or Ausperger's Syndrome, it becomes much harder to nail down. I think it would be folly to try and self-analyze myself with regards to those. Even a highly qualified psychologist/psychiatrist could not say for certain.

If you look at the site http://www.23andme.com and their list of possible health issues they can detect, you will see that autism is one as well as others like schizophrenia. I should note that many of these (on their website), much like with dermatoglyphics, only indicate a possibility of having an issue. And they make a statement to that effect as mandated by the FDA. That it is NOT for diagnostic use. The science is still too new.

Ok. So, my question really is, has anyone ever tried to correlate what dermatoglyphics say verses what genetic analysis says? Since the cost in now within the realm of possibility, I thought perhaps someone may have done something with this. It sounds like the answer is no.

I am thinking of doing it. I think it would be extremely interesting. It would also be interesting to look at their Global Origins testing. Many studies of simian lines say things like they are more common in Asia and the mideast. My ancestry (the amount that I know) is german, irish, scottish, and welsh. Unfortunately, much of my german ancestral records were destroyed during the WWII.

Anyway, thank you again for you help and patience with my postings.




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Re: Genetic testing via the hand?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:56 pm

mooky wrote:... Ok. So, my question really is, has anyone ever tried to correlate what dermatoglyphics say verses what genetic analysis says?

...
Hello mooky,

Thanks for explaining your thoughts.

I think I can inform you that the reseach suggestion that you have in mind (comparing dermatoglyphics with a full genetic analysis) has never been done for a large group of individuals.

But that is probably just because scientific research in this perspective is rather complex.

NOTICE: Studies are nearly always focussed on the individual elements of a genetic analysis - and typically focussed on people who have a specified genetic problem.


So even after you have acquire a full genetic analysis (yes you are right that the outcome will only provide you a general impression of the most likely dangers for you based on statistics), it will be hard to relate the analysis to your dermatoglyphics - because when you focuss solely on the dermatoglyphics this will provide you only another opportunity to play an 'game of chance'.

Other aspects of your hands will be required to be considered - but again, I think I will be able to specify that for quite a few diseases + behavioral qualities at a later stage.


PS. Regarding your double simian lines, despite that you have them... I recognize that your 10 whorls + a low atd-angle... are actually a CONTRA-INDICATION for Down's syndrome. Because these two characteristics sort of neutralize your simian lines regarding Down's syndrome:

- especially a low atd-angle is rarely seen in Down's syndrome;
- the same is true for 10 whorls.

And therefore the statistics indicate that this combination is typically never seen in Down's synrome - which explains why you don't have Down's syndrome... despite that you have two simian lines.

Actually, I would not be surprized if your hands do not meet the major criterium nor any of the 3 additional criteria that I described for Down syndrome.

(By the way, do you have any of the 12 dermatoglyphic criteria that I describe on the page for Down syndrome? - Again, at least four are required to speak about dermatoglyphics that meet a high level of significance for Down syndrome, so even if you have one of two that would hardly make your simian line more relevant regarding Down's syndrome, etc.)


I hope this makes sense now?



Hand characteristics in Down syndrome: the individual characteristics only become signficant when a large number of these characteristics are observed in one individual; more specified criteria are described here:
http://www.handresearch.com/diagnostics/simian-line-down-syndrome.htm


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re: Genetic testing

Post  mooky on Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:51 pm

Martijn,

Ok. My last word on this because we seem to have a language problem.

I am not sure why you are focusing on Downs in your last reply. I thought I made it clear that I know 100% that I do not have it.

And I am not worried that I have any condition at all. I am fine. I am just interested. Your website has a massive amount of information on all this and it is wonderful.

And I guess I have probably misinterpreted some of the statements in those studies.

Examples:

- simians are rare.. just 3% of population.... which is still 120 million people across the world. hardly a problem
- most people have around 20 triradii total for fingers and palms.... I have 36... big deal... millions and millions of people might have that many too
- average a-b ridge count around 34... I'm at around 28.... but millions of people might also
- five palmar loops (no idea of prevalence) - again, millions of people probably have that

So you see, I probably know better than most people that you have to be careful when interpreting statistics found in studies.

Actually, I have to come clean and admit to you that I am a researcher about to release a study about a new, unknown syndrome. The technical name is Chiro-dermatoglyphic Paranoidism. Also known as Mooky Syndrome. affraid

Just kidding! April Fools!

Ok, thanks again Martijn. I am going to back off now and return to being an interested observer and refrain from posting.



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Re: Genetic testing via the hand?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:49 pm

mooky wrote:
Martijn,

Ok. My last word on this because we seem to have a language problem.

I am not sure why you are focusing on Downs in your last reply. I thought I made it clear that I know 100% that I do not have it.

...
Hi mooky,

I think I have managed to answer your question(s) with a few details.

If you think that I misunderstood you question, that might just be related to the nature of your question - which is rather unusual (because the scientific community never really started exploring the full span of this huge idea that you have in mind).


thinking ...Even after reading your last post... I don't think that we have a language problem:

Actually, I didn't focuss on Down syndrome, let me explain this a little bit more:

In the PS of my former post I only tried to provide you a specified example featured with some of your hand characteristics that you described; but the example in my PS only served to give you an impression about how in this perspective it is really required to see any individual hand characteristic in the perspective of the rest of the hand!

(I would need more info about your hands to make a likewise example for fragile-x syndrome, autism or any other disorder that you might have in mind):

So that comment was only meant to illustrate & explain that it actually makes sense why far most people who have a simian line... do not have Down syndrome. So I want you to know that you are really not an exception in the perspective of the simian line...!


Second, regarding your comment about the statistics...

Yes mooky, I am very aware of this. In that perspective I could even start sharing statistical proof for that only about less than 2% of all people in the world who have a simian line... also have Down's syndrome.

But anyway, the simian line did became known for it's significance in Down's syndrome!!

(I can not take any responsibility for misunderstandings that people might have regarding the statistics that I presented on my website; but I am aware that sometimes it requires a proper understanding of the statistics to fully understand the implications of my conclusions)


So it indeed does require a proper understanding of statistics, because this significance of the link between the simian line & Down's syndrome is actually confirmed by the fact that in the rest of the world population that percentage is about 20 times lower: about 0.1%.

But despite that you have a simian line in both hands, your other hand characteristics explain why you don't belong to the 2% of the simian liners who have Down syndrome.

Very Happy ...'Capice?'

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Re: Genetic testing via the hand?

Post  Lynn on Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:17 pm

Martijn, re
the reseach suggestion that you have in mind (comparing dermatoglyphics with a full genetic analysis) has never been done for a large group of individuals.
and
If you think that I misunderstood you question, that might just be related to the nature of your question - which is rather unusual (because the scientific community never really started exploring the full span of this huge idea that you have in mind).

I understand what you're saying Martijn, that genetic testing has been done on people with Down's syndrome, and studies on the hands of people with Down's syndrome have also been done.

But I think it didn't answer Mooky's question because, the way I read it, Mooky was not suggesting a huge research project, but was just wondering whether to have the genetic testing, given
a large number of the aspects to my palms and fingerprints that are mentioned across all those dermatoglyphic studies.
appearing on Mooky's own hands. Mooky was just asking if any individual here had undergone genetic testing and found any correlation with studying their hands.

(I hope Mooky will tell me if I've misunderstood).

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Re: Genetic testing via the hand?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:07 pm


Thanks Lynn,

Yes, I understand your point. Thumbs up!

But if Mooky had simply asked me if it would be suitable for him to do a genetic testing only because he has a double simian line... then my answer would have been a simple: 'no'.

(Especially since he mentioned that he does not have any serious complaints/worries regarding the diseases involved in the genetic test. Unless... he doesn't really care about the money and he is basically only looking for some kind of psychological adventure... which by the way I also includes a risk that he might regret for the rest of his life. Because the reliability of those genetic tests is sort of like a 'black box' experiment!)


From mooky's second post I understood that he is indeed only interested in a comparision of a genetic analysis with his own dermatoglyphics.

But since the outcome of that genetic analysis service relates to about 189 diseases, syndromes & traits... his idea would require knowledge about the relevance of the dermatoglyphics all in those topics - Or at least for the ones that come out as more significant according the genetic analysis!!

So unless one focusses on only one or a couple of those diseases/syndromes... this is actually a very complex task - even for just one individual.


And therefore my thought is... that I would not be surprized if his idea has actually never ever been done for any single human being - simply because I think I understand that it is actually a much more complex task than it might appear to be at first sight.


For example, one should also be aware that among the tousands of scientific studies focussed on the medical relevance of the dermatoglyphics, my estimate is that only about 100 of these studies have been focussed on the issue of the possibility to assess a syndrome/disease directly from the dermatoglyphics.

Alexander Rodewald's book 'Hautleistenfibel' (1981) is an early attempt relevant to perform this rather complex task - though his book only included only a few dozens of syndromes & diseases (but at that time he was able to produce 'phantom pictures' for only about half the syndromes, but not for any of the diseases included in his book).


But I don't think that mooky asked for a 'yes' or a 'no'. He wondered if anyone has any experience with a comparison between genetic testing & the dermatoglyphics.

I explained the unusual nature of his question, and I have tried to explain with an example why his idea so complex.


Anyway, with the introducing of 'Multi-Perspective Palm Reading' at this forum ahead... I think mooky presented us a fascinating question.

Very Happy

PS. Mooky... if you continue to take that genetic-test, I am sure that many members would love to see you sharing the results featured with your hands!!

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re: genetic testing

Post  mooky on Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:09 pm

Lynn,

Yes, that is what I was asking. Because I was thinking of doing it myself. Getting both a proper hand analysis AND then also getting a 23andme.com test.

But the more I think about it, getting the 23andme.com test would likely muddle up the value provided in the hand analysis. Because, as Martijn points out, no such research has been done yet to specifically correlate the two.

Plus, he has correctly pointed out the fallacy in my thinking with respect to my making any assumptions based on my knowing that I have simians and other weird marks/factors. It will take a proper hand analysis, not me picking and choosing what I see or feel as being rare or unique markings and then making further assumptions after a 23andme.com test.

I'm just overly curious. Smile

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Re: Genetic testing via the hand?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:57 pm


Thanks!

Mooky, thanks for explaining your thoughts once again - and great to see that my feedback became at least useful for you to sort out your thoughts regarding the possible results of your experiment.


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Re: Genetic testing via the hand?

Post  Lynn on Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:07 pm

Mooky thanks for confirming that I understood you correctly (at least I understood one person this evening!).
Martijn, I also understand what you are saying here.

Re - since the outcome of that genetic analysis service relates to about 189 diseases, syndromes & traits... his idea would require knowledge about the relevance of the dermatoglyphics all in those topics - Or at least for the ones that come out as more significant according the genetic analysis!!

Might be better to start with analysis of the hand, and see if anything comes up that has been related to any 'syndromes' in scientific hand studies. It might just come up with a lot of confusion & contradictions, as you said regarding 10 whorls/low ATD angle not being found in the same studies as Simian lines.

Mooky I think it's good to be curious! Wink

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Re: Genetic testing via the hand?

Post  mooky on Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:32 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

But despite that you have a simian line in both hands, your other hand characteristics explain why you don't belong to the 2% of the simian liners who have Down syndrome.

Very Happy ...'Capice?'[/color]

Martijn,

Yes I think I understand what you are saying. In the case of Downs Syndrome it is much easier to understand due to the fairly long history of the recognition the creases bring to bear in the situation. After many, many studies the additional markings for Downs were brought into the equation to help nail down the diagnosis (probably the wrong word... so I'll say probability) of having the condition. So, for a newborn, a doctor may see the simian creases and then think, does the infant have the additional markings? If not, then they can breathe a sigh of relief on that one. And so forth. And obviously they can look at other features like eyes and ears etc.

And, I see why you have taken the time to clarify this. Not just for me but for anyone who reads my dumb speculative posts. And, that you have already put an enormous amount of work into your main website with respect to Simian Creases because they show up time and time again for other conditions. That, again, one cannot make any assumptions just because you have simian lines. It would depend on the person having additional, very specific marks in combination.

And, the other factors like atd angle and a-b ridge count are also the same. They don't necessarily mean anything at all in isolation or even in loose combinations.

I understand much better now why I have seen Simian lines being described as 'notorious'. That movie "The Simian Line" must have added quite a bit of confusion for folks looking in on your world. I bet you are happy that (so far) there have not been movies for "The ATD Angle" or "The A-B Ridge Count" or "The Whorls of Laura Mars". Very Happy

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Re: Genetic testing via the hand?

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:36 am


Hello again Dean!!

Sounds like you learned much more about the nature of a 'simian crease' - but the essence is indeed that it requires further study of the hand to make it become signficant for anything.

Yes, your idea is a bit 'speculative' - but not 'dumb' at all!

Dean, the truth is that I think your words are much more realistic than the 'simple interprations' that many hand reading authors have described in their books.

(Yes, many authors describe that the 'art of hand reading'' is found in the ability to make combinations - but few authors have managed to describe only a glimp of this aspect)

Kind regards, Martijn.


Thumb up :

PS. Let's hope that our conversation will become usefull for others as well - and especially other people who have a 'simian line' in one or both hand!

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