Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

**Lynn** Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:46 pm

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:

But there's a more specific problem...

There are more clear 'contradictions' between Spier's guidelines & Fincham's guidelines regarding the theme that we are discussing in this topic (inner- vs outer world), which become even more explicit visible regarding the descriptions presented by Spier & Fincham for the LONG FINGER FINGER:

- Spier writes for the long ring finger (The Hands of Chirldren, p.28): "In case it is much longer than the index an over-emphasis of the emotions is indicated, a too exclusive preoccupation with one's own world and a lack of appreciation of the values of the outside world of realities. This may lead to a too strongly stressed INTROVERSION of the emotions, particularly if the long ring finger has a decided inward bend toward the palm."

- However, Fincham writes for the long ring finger (Palmistry: From Apprentice to Pro in Twenty-Four Hours, p.198): "Extroverts naturally hold their finger widely spread. They often have grainy skin and a long peacock finger [= long ring finger]."

(Fincham also associates a long mirror (index) finger with introversion!)

I think the contradiction between the works of Spier & Fincham is quite obvious!!!

Again, regarding the ring finger - Spiers is talking about it bending into the palm and Johnny is talking about the distance between the fingers. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Also, the length (and other aspects) of the fingers shift their indications. Remember there is an inner and outer of everything in the hand, just to different degrees.

Patti I understand what you are saying about Spier in this and other recent posts, also about how the signature of the fingers can change depending on the situation, and about how there is an inner and outer aspect of everything in the hand. Thumbs up!

**Martijn (admin)** Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:43 pm

Maybe this discussion is far from finished yet... !

I have now featured 14 authors in the new picture (at the bottom of this post), and for the first time I have also seperated the 'psychoanalytic' terminology from the more common 'psychological' terminology.

(Maybe it is easier to read the details inside the picture by uploading the picture in a new screen, click: HERE )

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 13 Thumb-19

This new picture now also describes how the 'psychoanalytic' terminology can only be understood properly when one understands the mediating role of the EGO - which always gets associated with the thumb and/or radial side of the hand in the perspective of 'psycho(analytic) chirology'.

Inside the psychoanalytic framework, Freud has described that the 'ego' represents a set of cognitive functions (which by principle can be associated to relate to the 'inner world'):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego#Ego

"Originally, Freud used the word ego to mean a sense of self, but later revised it to mean a set of psychic functions such as judgment, tolerance, reality testing, control, planning, defense, synthesis of information, intellectual functioning, and memory."

But the following is essential:

Also, the 'ego' "... serves three severe masters ... the external world, the super-ego and the id."

In other words, the EGO has a mediating role between the inner- & outer world!

By the way, Jung's definition of the EGO also indicates that the ego can not be associated directly with the outer world, because he describes the EGO as a 'complex of ideas':

"By ego I understand a complex of ideas which constitutes the centre of my field of consciousness and appears to possess a high degree of continuity and identity. Hence I also speak of an ego-complex"

And in the perspective of the definitions presented by Freund & Jung, it is quite a mystery to me why in the 'psychoanalytic' works of Julius Spier, Yael Haft-Pomrock & Arnold Holtzman the word 'ego' became somehow associated (for unclear reasons) with the 'outer world'... unless... the words 'outer world' should be understood only as inner projections of the outer world!

(Unfortunately, I am not aware that any of these 3 authors have suggested that 'outer world' should indeed only be associated with inner projections of the outer world; however, since we are talking about a psycho-analytic perspective... one can not rule out that this could be the case)

Anyway, the following quote from Freud also confirms that the 'ego' actually has a role to mediate between the inner world (which e.g. includes ID + SUPER EGO) and the outer world:

“A transference neurosis corresponds to a conflict between ego and id, a narcissistic neurosis corresponds to that between between ego and super-ego, and a psychosis to that between ego and outer world.”

And thus, when the thumb is accepted to represent the 'ego' (in the psychoanalytic perspective) then the thumb can be described as the EGO-entity of the mind which manages the 3 quadrants of the hand.

And outside the psychoanalytic perspective one can say the the two (outward) phalanges of the thumb represent the 'I' that controls/manages the 4 palmar quadrants & the 4 fingers!

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:25 am

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Anyway Lynn... did Johnny's answer become anyhow helpful for you to understand his word-choice?

(If not, it would best to specifying your question... maybe your question was not very specific?)

Because Johnny didn't have the time to get involved in the discussion, hence didn't answer my 3 questions, you now wonder how specific my question was. *sigh*

Johnny's keywords didn't help my understanding.
BUT thinking about his words "I never do the balance of the quadrant order thing we used to do." made me think about how we used to do the quadrant orders.

Remembering quadrant orders, it occurred to me that actually Johnny's keywords do make sense when I relate it to leaning fingers, ie -
Fingers leaning to ulna side of the hand is more directed to inner world, fingers leading to radial side focus more on externals - P42 Spellbinding Power.

Because when all the fingers are leaning to the radial side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Ivory Tower quadrant, making it a weak area in the person. Hence no inner life, nor sense of self, sense of control, and greater dependence on externals.
When fingers lean to the ulna side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Public Stage quadrant so there is less emphasis on outer world, social connections, other people.

So in that sense, it still fits with my previous understanding of leaning fingers.

Okay Lynn, if you have asked 3 questions ( Thumbs up!

) and received only one (unspecific) answer... then there is not much you can do.

By the way, I don't understand your conclusion that when fingers are leaning to the radial side that the Ivory Tower then gets smaller....? confused

Because when I lean/push my fingers towards the radial side, the vertical line (seperating the radial and ulnar side) will also lean more to the radial side (because the connection between the middle finger and palm has moved with the fingers towards the radial side).

Correct?

I remember that you described that in your quadrant-menthod the horizontal line always is located halfway the vertical line with an angle of 90 degrees.

Correct?

This would results then in that in the situation of leaning fingers towards radial side, the horizontal line will cross the radial side of the palm at a lower position (because the vertical is leaning more to the radial side).

Correct?

And because of the horizontal bar crossing the radial side of the palm at a lower position, the Ivory Tower is actually larger (compared to a situation when I hold my fingers 'straight').

Correct?

thinking

Looking foward to see your answers!

Patti Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:50 am

Dylan Warren-Davies' chapter on quadrants might be helpful. (just in case you turned Lynn into a

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 13 Get-smiley

again)

<edit>
Warren-Davies uses 90 degrees between quadrants, but Dukes doesn't seem to do this in his description.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:21 am

Patti wrote:Dylan Warren-Davies' chapter on quadrants might be helpful. (just in case you turned Lynn into a again)

<edit>
Warren-Davies uses 90 degrees between quadrants, but Dukes doesn't seem to do this in his description.

Hi Patti,

Dukes does use the 90 degrees method as well; he describes it with the words "right angles" (= 90 degrees) in his description on page 47 in the bottom paragraph.

And the pictures on page 48 also confirm this.

So, I wonder why you misunderstood his guidelines? (Hmmm... a reminder regarding our earlier angle-discussion (about the tented arch) in the past!)

Anyway, thanks for responding.

wave

**Sucom** Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:59 am

I'm just stepping in here because your recent post (Martijn) caused me to take outlines of my hands both with my middle finger upright and then with my middle finger pushing hard towards the radial side of my hand.

When dividing my palms into quadrants, keeping all lines at right angles, I found the fire quadrant (not sure I like the name of this but that's a separate issue) to be larger when my middle finger was upright but smaller when it was pushed to the radial side of my hand. I didn't actually find the middle horizontal line to be significantly lower when my middle finger was leaning to the radial side so this didn't really increase the length of the quadrant.

Another possibility I'm inclined to raise is this: Should the mid vertical line move its original mid position in the palm when measuring the leaning middle finger? If we keep the mid point of the middle finger, then yes, the fire quadrant will become smaller, based on my findings this morning. However, if we keep the mid point of the palm, rather than the mid point of the finger, the fire quadrant becomes noticeably larger in size. This tends to agree with my own thoughts about the leaning fingers to the radial side of the palm. In this situation, my take is that the person's sense of purpose and duty is leaning towards externalizing one's sense of self and projecting it outwards into the world. This would effectively mean that one's sense of self is less connected to the ulna qualities of the palm (reduced air quadrant)

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:50 pm

Sucom wrote:I'm just stepping in here because your recent post (Martijn) caused me to take outlines of my hands both with my middle finger upright and then with my middle finger pushing hard towards the radial side of my hand.

When dividing my palms into quadrants, keeping all lines at right angles, I found the fire quadrant (not sure I like the name of this but that's a separate issue) to be larger when my middle finger was upright but smaller when it was pushed to the radial side of my hand. I didn't actually find the middle horizontal line to be significantly lower when my middle finger was leaning to the radial side so this didn't really increase the length of the quadrant.

Another possibility I'm inclined to raise is this: Should the mid vertical line move its original mid position in the palm when measuring the leaning middle finger? If we keep the mid point of the middle finger, then yes, the fire quadrant will become smaller, based on my findings this morning. However, if we keep the mid point of the palm, rather than the mid point of the finger, the fire quadrant becomes noticeably larger in size. This tends to agree with my own thoughts about the leaning fingers to the radial side of the palm. In this situation, my take is that the person's sense of purpose and duty is leaning towards externalizing one's sense of self and projecting it outwards into the world. This would effectively mean that one's sense of self is less connected to the ulna qualities of the palm (reduced air quadrant)

Hi Sue,

Thank you for your efforts! I have done the exercise on my own hands and found that when my fingers are leaning towards the ulnar side... the horizontal bar goes (on the radial side) through the lower part of mars-negative, but when my fingers are leaning towards the radial side... the horizontal bar shifts to the upper part of the mount of venus.

This description itself illustrates how the 'fire quadrant' becomes larger with leaning fingers towards the radial side.

By the way, I hope you understood that I was not suggesting that the full horizontal bar becomes positioned lower (it's an angle issue relative to the wrist creases, because when the fingers are leaning toward the radial side the full upper palm slightly shifts towards the radial side... but this effect does not occure for the lower palm).

If necessary, I can proof my point with a picture.

wave

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:56 pm

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 13 Thumb-21

I have re-written the text in the lower section of the new picture that I presented yesterday, now the text should be much more easy to understand!

(Also a few modifications related to Arnold Holtzman's vocabulary, e.g. the ring finger is now labeled with 'self-actualization' and all references now direct to his 1983 book!)

cheers

The illlustration below provides clear support for my essential point... that the 'social world' (see the words: 'world' + 'sex and reproduction') can best be understood as positioned between the ID and SUPER-EGO!

(Source: http://www.drsheedy.com/human-behavior/sigmund-freud-and-carl-jung.php )

Figure. An approximation showing how the Freudian id, ego, and superego overlay upon the base for the Sensory Mind.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 13 Freud

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 13 Freud

**Sucom** Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:13 pm

Hi Martijn,

Oh dear, I think I might need a picture because I'm just not following your method for measuring.

I have to admit, I have spent hours in the past pondering over the quadrants and how to measure them accurately. It nearly drove me to distraction, if I'm honest. So much so, in fact, that I gave up any ideas about measuring them because I found other features gave me more accurate results.

Now, here I am doing it all again and finding similar results, that is, I'm not finding any accuracy.

So, I would be more than interested to see an image or two of how you are assessing the angles for the vertical and horizontal lines with the fingers in various positions. I think that if we are to find useful results there must be some control that can be agreed upon over how the measuring, particularly regarding the angles of each line, can be done. If this has been mentioned before, perhaps you could point me to it.

**Parender** Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:53 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Parender wrote:Your Inner Essence is the fabrication of your being, very personal, your soul psychology, your life purpose and is a continue process. It is more than that; like an internal force that guides, inspires, motivates you. A spiritual person can understand this well because it is infinite silence, peace and stillness at the core point of your being, to be in harmony with Almighty. Sometime it is beyond language and is expressed by many emotions.

It is a ‘feeling’ that’s totally unique and personal to every individual. It is an awakening of the Truth for you. Inner essence is a combination of many things. A thumb can denote your willpower, decision-making power, persistence or energy level, yours being successful or failure but I think it (sole thumb) cannot reveal your inner essence, for this you would have to study all the fingers and fingertips. Yes, thumb individualizes a person and is very important but without fingers what it is? Like studying or analyzing hand as a whole is more important than studying in sections so to know and understand inner essence we would have to study fingers too. After all this is your Life Purpose.

Parender Sethi

Hi Parender,

Thanks for sharing you perceptions regarding the inner essence. Unfortunately, I think your description does not present anything specific regarding how to 'read' the inner essence from the hand.

In general, when there is not specific relation between any proportion of the hand and the inner essence... then by principle one could start wondering about whether there is any relationship between the hand and the inner essence at all!???

But I can add that I am also glad to see that the only specific comment in your post in this perspective relates to the thumb... which I can perceive as at least some confirmation of what I have described so far regarding the thumb.

So, I welcome you to specify anything in this perspective if you can!

My saying is based on the thesis that your inner essence is your soul psychology, your life purpose. If it is so then your inner essence should naturally be the identification of what specifically you feel you should do or inclined to do in order to live life to the fullest. The inner essence attracts you to do the things naturally in life which give you the greatest gratification and meaning when you do them. Your inner essence is true you, your life purpose. And it cannot be derived from only one part of the palm of the hand as everything affects everything.

Your inner essence is what is going to guide you through every act in life, so it is critical that you define it accurately, for this you would have to consider the whole hand including all the three keys i.e.hand formation, lines and fingerprints. Without studying these keys you cannot reveal the true life purpose or ‘inner essence’. Ego is not inner essence. There are many other aspects of your behavior patterns are involved in it besides the ego. Whatever might be the definition of ego, I have to say life is much more than only ego.

Because no sign or marker is absolute on the hand; so whosoever be whether Spier or Fincham or anyone else who defines inner essence from a particular part of a hand cannot be absolute correct and is very difficult to believe. Personally, I do not agree to these methods. And there are great contradictions on their aspects too. Your inner essence is in fact true you yourself who when live effortlessly the life. This is naturally more than a thumb. Your inner essence confirms your own sense of who you are. You are not your thumb only. I don’t believe this. Yes thumb individualizes a person but is not your inner essence. Even in exceptional case, suppose a person who does not have thumb at all (there is a person who lost it in an accident) then how you will know his/her inner essence? How you would know inner essence of a mad person or mentally retarded person?

The self-controlled person knows when to oppose and when not to, when to exert his/her will on others and when to let them go by applying his natural instincts or fortitude. This all is part of inner essence. Inner essence is continuing process where priorities change as lines change. This support comes to thumb from elsewhere on the palms i.e Head Line and other lines. Lines, fingerprints and hand formation were made for each other. The whole is always important then a section. Only alone thumb cannot reveal inner essence to know it you would have to analyze whole hand.

Parendere Sethi

Patti Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:45 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Dylan Warren-Davies' chapter on quadrants might be helpful. (just in case you turned Lynn into a again)

<edit>
Warren-Davies uses 90 degrees between quadrants, but Dukes doesn't seem to do this in his description.

Hi Patti,

Dukes does use the 90 degrees method as well; he describes it with the words "right angles" (= 90 degrees) in his description on page 47 in the bottom paragraph.

And the pictures on page 48 also confirm this.

So, I wonder why you misunderstood his guidelines? (Hmmm... a reminder regarding our earlier angle-discussion (about the tented arch) in the past!)

Anyway, thanks for responding.

Yes, I see the words "right angles" I picked up on the fact it wouldn't be horizontal. The more I studied this idea of quadrants made by 90 degree or right angles, the more the idea became another method applied to the hands without regard to the territory the lines and angles are being applied.

It seems illogical that part of the thenar mount could find itself on the ulnar half of the hand with a vertical line.

Another reason I never bothered with this system of absolute quadrants and probably one of the reasons none of the members of Lynn's group could agree.

I haven't a clue what is in your head with your innuendo I put in bold and really don't care to find out.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:58 pm

Patti wrote:...
I haven't a clue what is in your head with your innuendo I put in bold and really don't care to find out.

I was referring to our discussion about the 'angles' between the radiants of a triadius.

Not sure where your assocation regarding a thenar (partly) on the ulnar side of the hand came from, because Dukes only talks about the quandrant in terms of a vertical line between the triradius below the middle finger and a 'point at the center of the wrist end of the palm'.

Patti Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:40 pm

I made a cross with 90 degree angles on a transparency and overlaid it on hands in my collection.

If you use the location under the middle finger, you have different results than when you divide the middle finger as well. This is a difference between Warren-Davies and Dukes methods of dividing the quadrants. (ok see you found somewhere that Dukes is saying measure at the triradius under the middle finger (hahaha - like it is always centered under the middle finger) Yet, his illustrations all show the line running through the finger and aligned with the middle finger.

I'm not too familiar with what Duke's actually writes as I disregarded his book years ago, before I knew his history.

Patti Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:43 pm

Personally, I think when the hand is being measured, the most accurate way would be to have them straighten their fingers and palm out. Unless, you're trying to measure the current attitude. Otherwise, you will get a different measurement every time you measure a living hand. A print made without arranging the fingers, only relates to the moment.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:53 pm

Patti wrote:Personally, I think when the hand is being measured, the most accurate way would be to have them straighten their fingers and palm out. Unless, you're trying to measure the current attitude. Otherwise, you will get a different measurement every time you measure a living hand. A print made without arranging the fingers, only relates to the moment.

Yes Patti, I fully support this idea! Thumbs up!

**Lynn** Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:06 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...
I haven't a clue what is in your head with your innuendo I put in bold and really don't care to find out.

I was referring to our discussion about the 'angles' between the radiants of a triadius.

Not sure where your assocation regarding a thenar (partly) on the ulnar side of the hand came from, because Dukes only talks about the quandrant in terms of a vertical line between the triradius below the middle finger and a 'point at the center of the wrist end of the palm'.

You've made a mistake Martijn, Dukes doesn't measure from the triradius below the middle finger. He measures from the tip of the finger.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:43 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...
I haven't a clue what is in your head with your innuendo I put in bold and really don't care to find out.

I was referring to our discussion about the 'angles' between the radiants of a triadius.

Not sure where your assocation regarding a thenar (partly) on the ulnar side of the hand came from, because Dukes only talks about the quandrant in terms of a vertical line between the triradius below the middle finger and a 'point at the center of the wrist end of the palm'.

You've made a mistake Martijn, Dukes doesn't measure from the triradius below the middle finger. He measures from the tip of the finger.

Lynn, Dukes writes literally (p.47):

"The quadranture is determined as follows:

Take a point at the apex of the middle finger and a point at the center of the wrist of the palm. Draw a line connecting the two. ... "

I think this can only refer to the palmar apex (= synonym for 'triradius') below the middle finger, so... where did I make the mistake???

(Sorry, I wonder: did you actually read Dukes' guidelines before posting Lynn?)

confused

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:01 pm

Patti wrote:I made a cross with 90 degree angles on a transparency and overlaid it on hands in my collection.

If you use the location under the middle finger, you have different results than when you divide the middle finger as well. This is a difference between Warren-Davies and Dukes methods of dividing the quadrants. (ok see you found somewhere that Dukes is saying measure at the triradius under the middle finger (hahaha - like it is always centered under the middle finger) Yet, his illustrations all show the line running through the finger and aligned with the middle finger.

I'm not too familiar with what Duke's actually writes as I disregarded his book years ago, before I knew his history.

Yes Patti, there are different methods available.

But from a fundamental point of view... I think it is quite obvious that in order to find the palmar quadrants it would not make much sense to use the (tip of) middle finger. That would be like asking for an endless amount trouble due to the varying leaning of the fingers in every single hand print of the same hand.

PS. Johnny Fincham does not present detailed guidelines, but just like Dukes he also only speaks about about the palm only in his first book (page 5): "dissected vertically through the centre of the palm;..." - but his pictures suggest that he is exactly the same method that Dukes described.

**Lynn** Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:06 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:You've made a mistake Martijn, Dukes doesn't measure from the triradius below the middle finger. He measures from the tip of the finger.

Lynn, Dukes writes literally (p.47):

"The quadranture is determined as follows:

Take a point at the apex of the middle finger and a point at the center of the wrist of the palm. Draw a line connecting the two. ... "

I think this can only refer to the palmar apex (= synonym for 'triradius') below the middle finger, so... where did I make the mistake???

(Sorry, I wonder: did you actually read Dukes' guidelines before posting Lynn?)

Martijn, you know I did quadrant analysis for years, yet you think I don't know where we measured it from?
You have misinterpreted the guidelines! The apex of the finger is the finger tip. (not the triradius or apex of the mount below the finger). On the diagram P47 you can see he has joined the dots, one at finger tip and one at the centre of wrist.
(Dylan Warren Davis does it differently, from centre of base of middle finger where it joins the palm).

Patti Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:22 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...
I haven't a clue what is in your head with your innuendo I put in bold and really don't care to find out.

I was referring to our discussion about the 'angles' between the radiants of a triadius.

Not sure where your assocation regarding a thenar (partly) on the ulnar side of the hand came from, because Dukes only talks about the quandrant in terms of a vertical line between the triradius below the middle finger and a 'point at the center of the wrist end of the palm'.

You've made a mistake Martijn, Dukes doesn't measure from the triradius below the middle finger. He measures from the tip of the finger.

Martijn,
Now it's coming back to me.... you mean where you accuse me of making the mistakes?

Patti Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:04 pm

Parender wrote:

Because no sign or marker is absolute on the hand; so whosoever be whether Spier or Fincham or anyone else who defines inner essence from a particular part of a hand cannot be absolute correct and is very difficult to believe.

Agree, they are either absolutely correct or absolutely incorrect as the inner essence is throughout the entire hand and body.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:28 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:You've made a mistake Martijn, Dukes doesn't measure from the triradius below the middle finger. He measures from the tip of the finger.

Lynn, Dukes writes literally (p.47):

"The quadranture is determined as follows:

Take a point at the apex of the middle finger and a point at the center of the wrist of the palm. Draw a line connecting the two. ... "

I think this can only refer to the palmar apex (= synonym for 'triradius') below the middle finger, so... where did I make the mistake???

(Sorry, I wonder: did you actually read Dukes' guidelines before posting Lynn?)

Martijn, you know I did quadrant analysis for years, yet you think I don't know where we measured it from?
You have misinterpreted the guidelines! The apex of the finger is the finger tip. (not the triradius or apex of the mount below the finger). On the diagram P47 you can see he has joined the dots, one at finger tip and one at the centre of wrist.
(Dylan Warren Davis does it differently, from centre of base of middle finger where it joins the palm).

Well Lynn, thanks for pointing out what Dukes had in mind... yes, I can confirm: I now see how his picture indeed confirms what you just described.

I had missed the little dot (probably because a few years ago I have written a few comments around that picture), I had never heard of the word 'apex' associated with the distal tip of the finger, and... Johnny Fincham's pictures clearly indicate that he has adopted a different method then the one described by Dukes - because in Johnny's pictures the vertical quadrantial axis is not anyhow associated with the tip of the middle finger and Johnny talks about the palm only.

So, can we agree that Johnny has adopted a different menthod compared to Dukes' guidelines?

PS. I apologize for my earlier comments questioning that I had made a mistake here, because obviously... I indeed made the mistake that you described! ( Thumbs up!

)

And... I would like to make one more apology, because you were not only right that when using Dukes' method the 'fire quadrant' indeed becomes smaller when the fingers are leaning towards the radial side. Yes, by using Dukes' method that is clearly the case! ( Thumbs up!

)

Now, I have also checked whether things become different when using Johnny's method... but that also appears not the case - see the picture below. So, contrary to my I earlier comment where I suggested that the 'Ivory Tower' would become larger for that situation... I can now confirm that you (and Sue) were actually correct! ( Thumbs up!

for you both! Very Happy

... that's my third apology today!)

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 13 Leanin11

Okay Lynn, I just have made 3 apologies... Wink

However, now I would really like to go back to your comment where you described:

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Anyway Lynn... did Johnny's answer become anyhow helpful for you to understand his word-choice?

(If not, it would best to specifying your question... maybe your question was not very specific?)

Because Johnny didn't have the time to get involved in the discussion, hence didn't answer my 3 questions, you now wonder how specific my question was. *sigh*

Johnny's keywords didn't help my understanding.
BUT thinking about his words "I never do the balance of the quadrant order thing we used to do." made me think about how we used to do the quadrant orders.

Remembering quadrant orders, it occurred to me that actually Johnny's keywords do make sense when I relate it to leaning fingers, ie -
Fingers leaning to ulna side of the hand is more directed to inner world, fingers leading to radial side focus more on externals - P42 Spellbinding Power.

Because when all the fingers are leaning to the radial side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Ivory Tower quadrant, making it a weak area in the person. Hence no inner life, nor sense of self, sense of control, and greater dependence on externals.
When fingers lean to the ulna side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Public Stage quadrant so there is less emphasis on outer world, social connections, other people.

So in that sense, it still fits with my previous understanding of leaning fingers.

Because Lynn, you told me a few days ago that your association regarding 'inner world' and 'outer world' (nbw) only relates to palm: you associate the radial palm as 'outer world' and the ulnar palm with 'inner world'.

Correct?

Now, let's not forget that Johnny's label 'outer world' actually relates to the upper ulnar palm... which at first sight appears to be in contradiction with your association.

Correct?

However, then you started associating regarding the leaning of the fingers... but you actually started the association BY ADOPTING Johnny's perspective! Because you started from the point: 'Ivory Tower' = inner world, then you jumped to the fingers (which you described no longer to associated with 'inner- vs. outer world') and used Johnny's descripting for leaning fingers towards the ulnar side, which he associates with introversion, and finally you argued that 'leaning fingers towards the ulnar side' results in a larger 'Ivory Tower', and thus more introvert.

Correct?

Now Lynn I have 2 questions:

1) Since your reasoning started from 'Ivory Tower = inner world', does this implicate that you can now also sort of understand why I actually liked Johnny's label 'outer world' for the upper ulnar palmar quadrant? Or are you telling me that since Johnny uses it, you can use it as well at any time whenever you like, but... my choices regarding the labels I have adopted in my picture still do not make sense to you??? confused

(You know what, this afternoon I bought myself a tross of 8 bananas! Rock on!

)

2) Please take a look at my 2 (large) pictures above, which show the dynamics resulting from leaning fingers. We can seen the folling patterns:

- Leaning fingers towards the radial side indeed result in a SMALLER 'Ivory Tower' (= less fire)... but there is so much more other results: the 'mirror finger' becomes MORE dominant (= more water), the 'peacock finger' becomes LESS dominant (= less fire), and e.g. the 'water quadrant' also becomes LARGER (= more water).

- And leaning fingers towards the ulnar side indeed result in a LARGER 'Ivory Tower' (= more fire)... but there is so much more other results: the 'mirror finger' becomes LESS dominant (= less water), the 'peacock finger' becomes MORE dominant (= more fire), and e.g. the 'water quadrant' also becomes SMALLER (= less water).

Now, regarding the 2nd situation - leaning finger towards ulnar side - this results in a larger 'Ivory Tower'... but than means actually MORE FIRE (2x: larger fire quadrant + a more dominant fire finger) + LESS WATER (2x: less dominant water finger + a smaller water quadrant).

So, there is 2x more FIRE + 2x less WATER... sounds like a typical more 'EXTRAVERT' pattern to me.

(Correct?)

Lynn, my second question is: would you please re-consider your reasoning regarding whether you really understand Johnny's word-choice?

(Because I think I have just described that so far your associations are a bit 'opportunistic'... without considering the full perspective of the hand, and I think I have just also described that it appears as if you only understood Johnny's reasoning... after letting go your own principles - because you started reasoning from Johnny's 'Ivory Tower'... but I think you actually still also associate the upper radial zone with... the 'outer world'! Smile

... I hope you'll understand that I have actually described 2 'steps' in your reasoning that do not make much sense to me in the perspective of your other principles!)

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:31 pm

Patti wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...
I haven't a clue what is in your head with your innuendo I put in bold and really don't care to find out.

I was referring to our discussion about the 'angles' between the radiants of a triadius.

Not sure where your assocation regarding a thenar (partly) on the ulnar side of the hand came from, because Dukes only talks about the quandrant in terms of a vertical line between the triradius below the middle finger and a 'point at the center of the wrist end of the palm'.

You've made a mistake Martijn, Dukes doesn't measure from the triradius below the middle finger. He measures from the tip of the finger.

Martijn,
Now it's coming back to me.... you mean where you accuse me of making the mistakes?

Yes Patti, I owe you an apology as well... I was the one who was wrong about Dukes' method.

(I had missed the dot, misunderstood the word apex, and I had assumed that Dukes and Fincham use the same method... but I was wrong about that as well!)

I hope you understand. Thanks!

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:36 pm

Sucom wrote:Hi Martijn,

Oh dear, I think I might need a picture because I'm just not following your method for measuring.

I have to admit, I have spent hours in the past pondering over the quadrants and how to measure them accurately. It nearly drove me to distraction, if I'm honest. So much so, in fact, that I gave up any ideas about measuring them because I found other features gave me more accurate results.

Now, here I am doing it all again and finding similar results, that is, I'm not finding any accuracy.

So, I would be more than interested to see an image or two of how you are assessing the angles for the vertical and horizontal lines with the fingers in various positions. I think that if we are to find useful results there must be some control that can be agreed upon over how the measuring, particularly regarding the angles of each line, can be done. If this has been mentioned before, perhaps you could point me to it.

Hi Sue, I have to withdraw my earlier comments... because you were right that in the case of leaning fingers towards the radial side the 'upper radial quadrant' actually gets smaller indeed! Thumbs up!

PS. My upper (larger) picture in my post directed to Lyn demonstrates this.

**Lynn** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:29 am

Thank you for your apologies.

(edit - by the way the word apex means the top of something, the tip, the summit, the highest point. eg of a hill, mountain, roof, hand mount, or even of a career).

Just a couple of comment about your pictures.
1. When the fingers habitually lean to the radial side, the thumb is not as outstretched as in your picture. The thumb angle is usually narrower, which scrunches up that quadrant even more. (see page 42 Spellbinding Power, illustration 41).
2. You would use the top rascette as the lower boundary of the lower quadrants, rather than the straight line you have drawn, but that is just a minor observation.

Martijn (admin) wrote:Johnny Fincham's pictures clearly indicate that he has adopted a different method then the one described by Dukes - because in Johnny's pictures the vertical quadrantial axis is not anyhow associated with the tip of the middle finger and Johnny talks about the palm only.
So, can we agree that Johnny has adopted a different menthod compared to Dukes' guidelines?

Johnny has told us that he no longer does quadrant analysis. So, therefore he doesn't present any method for quadrant analysis, such as Dukes was presenting!
Yes Johnny has presented a different method for dividing the palm into 4 areas, taking the horizontal line from centre of negative Mars to positive Mars, which means the horzintal line in his diagram is not at 90 degrees to the vertical.

(more replies in a minute)

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