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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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Post  anithapalm on Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:23 pm

Thanks martijn sir for reply. Verification is the only proof for the theory. so, I wonder how we can verify theories without practical verification. Also, Logic is not the simple aspect of one's intelligence. It is a peculiar phenomena which can be possessed by brainy individuals like detective agents. how can we under stand a logic of a person just seeing the long head line of a person. ie., laymen have long head line and long index finger!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:36 pm

anithapalm wrote:Thanks martijn sir for reply. Verification is the only proof for the theory. so, I wonder how we can verify theories without practical verification. Also, Logic is not the simple aspect of one's intelligence. It is a peculiar phenomena which can be possessed by brainy individuals like detective agents. how can we under stand a logic of a person just seeing the long head line of a person. ie., laymen have long head line and long index finger!

Hello again anithapalm!

Well, philosophically speaking: in the perspective of this discussion about the thumb (+ hand map ) in general we could describe the writings of the authors here as materials that reflect some attempt (by the authors) to describe their findings during practical verification.

However, this topic is focussed on the fact that those materials (the writings of authors in books) contradiction each other regarding some points... and then it requires a further analysis of the writings itself in order to investigate whether the authors have used proper 'reasoning'.


PS. Sorry, again, I think you are trying to discussion some aspects which relate to the practice of hand reading... please, you are welcome to start a new topic in order to discuss how to read 'logic' from the hand. Okay? wave

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:12 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Patti wrote:Keywords for Little Finger - Auricular Finger (ear - typically fits inside the ear) relates to hearing and listening. The key to good communication is listening. Listening is a receptive inner quality. (my keywords in bold)

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 12 Boy-listening-150x150

Listening is 60% of Communication

Well, it depends on what you mean with 'listening'... if voice-pitch is included then the 60% could indeed be a good estimate.

Unfortunately, in this discussion we all depend on each others reading & writing abilities - which is in this forum situation the alternative for 'listening' and 'speaking words'.

Thanks Patti - by the way, next to the pinky (mind) I think also the hypothenar (senses/body language + emotion/voice pitch: see my new map) plays a major role regarding 'communiciation'.


I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 12 20081004_7-38-55_body_language_voice_words

Yes, the example for this group would relate the listening aspect to reading between the lines, the innuendos, choices of words, font, color, and things like that in people's text to pick up on the expression and tone behind the words. The act of being receptive to someone else's output. Reading a post is a taking in energy and writing a post is an outward energy. Both are forms of communication.

When describing fingers we look at qualities such as smooth or knobby knuckles, blunt or pointy fingertips, and few or many horizontal lines for how information flows in and out.

p.s.: Regarding the forum aspect lol! , you missed the humor or point in my communication. It was a response to your post saying that you couldn't find anything *published* on my website, so I added my comment to a webpage and added the link here. My communication was meant to be humorous, but you apparently didn't receive it that way.

Hi Patti,

Thank you for explaining what you had in mind.
But are you suggesting that I am not listening to your arguments? Or Lynn's arguments?

Is so, please summarize what you perceive/think/assume that I have missed... confused


PS. What is your intend regarding the info that you published on your website? How do you think that the info about the so-called 'auricular finger' could become helpful in this discussion? confused

It's obviously out of context now! geek (which is a point about the two way street of communication and listening/receiving as well as talking/projecting)
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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:22 pm

Last night reading hands at an event, I consciously tried to look at the ulnar side as outer and the radial side as inner and the readings could only be accurately done in the normal sense of the inner is being projected outwardly and the outer is being received... I'm simply defining which to which degree.

Martijn, have you made many attempts to actually putting your theory into practice, yet?
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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:27 pm

Perhaps use a famous person that we all have a good idea of their inner and outer worlds (as best anyone could know someone else's inner world)

Then illustrate how this new chart works.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:07 pm

Patti wrote:Last night reading hands at an event, I consciously tried to look at the ulnar side as outer and the radial side as inner and the readings could only be accurately done in the normal sense of the inner is being projected outwardly and the outer is being received... I'm simply defining which to which degree.

Martijn, have you made many attempts to actually putting your theory into practice, yet?

Patti, I am not discussing 'my theory'... because from the start I have only been discussing the words & concepts described in the books.

I think the key-words in my picture(s) for the individual fingers are representative for the key-words being used in far most hand reading systems.

Again, these are not my key-words... I am just the observer who reports that the key-words in the books tell a story on it's own, especially regarding the pinky!!


Patti, earlier in this discussion I have asked you to present comon used key-words from the hand reading literature which could suggest that the pinky also relates to the inner world (in the perspective of the fact that words like 'communicaton', 'intimacy' & 'social connections/relationships' have most commonly been used)... but I don't think you have found one.

Correct?


PS. Regarding your anecdotal report about your experience last night.. you speak of 'the normal sense' - but this only directly relates to your own personal perspective that you have developed over the years.

(But it's not easy for me to understand what your 'holistic' approach really implicates, because even though you have made a few comment regarding the words used by various authors... I don't think you have substantiated your own view with any specific key-words or ideas at all... so I have no idea how you 'tested' the outcome of my literature-approach last night!)

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:32 pm

Patti wrote:Perhaps use a famous person that we all have a good idea of their inner and outer worlds (as best anyone could know someone else's inner world)

Then illustrate how this new chart works.

Sorry, by principle I don't believe that one can 'test' any hand reading theory via the hands of just one person only. And I also don't think that it is a suitable idea to focus our attention on a 'famous person'... because we then probably depend on the public image that the press (or the persons themselve) has created.

Also, be aware that the chart is still under debate - I am looking forward to hear Johnny Fincham's feedback to Lynn regarding why he started using the words 'public stage' & 'ivory tower', etc.

So, for the moment my interest is all focussed on the development of the chart... and not whether the charts confirms anything at all for just one 'arbitrary' (famous) individual. Because I am much more interested to use this chart with the purpose as a tool to communicate with other hand readers about the 'contradictions' that we find in the books.

And in this perspective the validity of the individual elements in the chart is even of minor importance... especially since hand readers have never really been successfull in finding an approach to present any substantial evidence regarding the validity of any 'theory' for an individual hand feature, because so far the field drits on 'anecdotal evidence'!

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:00 pm

Patti wrote:Definitely agree that our senses go beyond the fingertips!

Julius Spier connects the senses with the index finger, and the index finger to the outer world.

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 12 Spiers10

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 12 Spiers11

Patti, it's very interesting to see that Spier associates the index finger (radial side) to represent the 'world finger'... however, Johnny Fincham uses the words 'world stage' (and 'public stage') for the upper ulnar palmar quadrant - which relates to ulnar side of the hand.

But there is a bit of 'controversy' regarding Spier's word choice, because he also describes the ring finger to represent (page 28): "The range of the finger compromises the emotional domain as related to the entire environment, with the exception of the partner-relationship".

NOTICE: Spier associates on page 30 the pinky with 'partner-relationship' where he suggests that 'voice' and 'language' are sort of the tools to establish the sexual manifestation of the life-force (which he associates with the thumb).

So, the name 'world-finger' for the index finger could be a bit misleading here... because Spier also associates the ring finger with "the emotional domain as related to the entire environment", and the pinky finger with ''partner relationship'' - which of course also relates to the outer world!

But there's a more specific problem...


There are more clear 'contradictions' between Spier's guidelines & Fincham's guidelines regarding the theme that we are discussing in this topic (inner- vs outer world), which become even more explicit visible regarding the descriptions presented by Spier & Fincham for the LONG FINGER FINGER:

- Spier writes for the long ring finger (The Hands of Chirldren, p.28): "In case it is much longer than the index an over-emphasis of the emotions is indicated, a too exclusive preoccupation with one's own world and a lack of appreciation of the values of the outside world of realities. This may lead to a too strongly stressed INTROVERSION of the emotions, particularly if the long ring finger has a decided inward bend toward the palm."

- However, Fincham writes for the long ring finger (Palmistry: From Apprentice to Pro in Twenty-Four Hours, p.198): "Extroverts naturally hold their finger widely spread. They often have grainy skin and a long peacock finger [= long ring finger]."

(Fincham also associates a long mirror (index) finger with introversion!)


I think the contradiction between the works of Spier & Fincham is quite obvious!!!

By the way, my recent Extraversion study indicates that Fincham's theory is much more likely correct.

Extraversion has been associated with high testosterone levels in young males. And Prof. Manning e.g. makes a report in his 2nd book [The Finger Book, p.44] that women with women with a low 2D:4D digit ratio were found to score high on Extraversion (though I should add here that there are more studies with conflicting results, but the most significant result confirmed the link between high extraversion and a low 2D:4D digit ratio).

So, I think it is important that the controversy that we are discussing is not focussed on just the palm... because the example that I have described above indicates that Spier's work is actually very controversial because his associations for the ring finger are not only disputable in the perspective of.Fincham's work, I think that actually many hand reading authors & hand readers will dispute Spier's guidelines for the ring finger - and I think Lynn is actually one of them (because she e.g. has described that the 2D:4D digit ratio findings make sense for her!

Now, Patti... I am looking forward to hear your response, because things are obviously much more complex than your reference to the work of Spier suggested!

Thanks!


PS. Let's be ware of the fact that Spier has background in psychoanalytic psychology, which could explain why his theories have some similarities with the other 'psychoanalytic authors': Yael Haft-Pomrock & Arnold Holtzman! Exclamation Exclamation

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Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network
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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:32 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Last night reading hands at an event, I consciously tried to look at the ulnar side as outer and the radial side as inner and the readings could only be accurately done in the normal sense of the inner is being projected outwardly and the outer is being received... I'm simply defining which to which degree.

Martijn, have you made many attempts to actually putting your theory into practice, yet?

Patti, I am not discussing 'my theory'... because from the start I have only been discussing the words & concepts described in the books.

I think the key-words in my picture(s) for the individual fingers are representative for the key-words being used in far most hand reading systems.

Again, these are not my key-words... I am just the observer who reports that the key-words in the books tell a story on it's own, especially regarding the pinky!!


Patti, earlier in this discussion I have asked you to present comon used key-words from the hand reading literature which could suggest that the pinky also relates to the inner world (in the perspective of the fact that words like 'communicaton', 'intimacy' & 'social connections/relationships' have most commonly been used)... but I don't think you have found one.

Correct?


PS. Regarding your anecdotal report about your experience last night.. you speak of 'the normal sense' - but this only directly relates to your own personal perspective that you have developed over the years.

(But it's not easy for me to understand what your 'holistic' approach really implicates, because even though you have made a few comment regarding the words used by various authors... I don't think you have substantiated your own view with any specific key-words or ideas at all... so I have no idea how you 'tested' the outcome of my literature-approach last night!)

Why did you change the goal posts regarding the topic? It was presented in regards to not using philosophical ideas to describe the hand and the title is "The Thumb Represents the Inner Essence of Man".

You ask me to look through my literature to confirm your thoughts with keywords that substantiate your own still to be proven idea. It's your theory... you should support it yourself.

I will however respond to your request for an older publication.

This is from 1899 Holmes W. Merton "Descriptive Mentality"

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 12 Holmes10

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 12 Holmes11


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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:21 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, it's very interesting to see that Spier associates the index finger (radial side) to represent the 'world finger'... however, Johnny Fincham uses the words 'world stage' (and 'public stage') for the upper ulnar palmar quadrant - which relates to ulnar side of the hand.

But there is a bit of 'controversy' regarding Spier's word choice, because he also describes the ring finger to represent (page 28): "The range of the finger compromises the emotional domain as related to the entire environment, with the exception of the partner-relationship".

NOTICE: Spier associates on page 30 the pinky with 'partner-relationship' where he suggests that 'voice' and 'language' are sort of the tools to establish the sexual manifestation of the life-force (which he associates with the thumb).

So, the name 'world-finger' for the index finger could be a bit misleading here... because Spier also associates the ring finger with "the emotional domain as related to the entire environment", and the pinky finger with ''partner relationship'' - which of course also relates to the outer world!

But there's a more specific problem...


There are more clear 'contradictions' between Spier's guidelines & Fincham's guidelines regarding the theme that we are discussing in this topic (inner- vs outer world), which become even more explicit visible regarding the descriptions presented by Spier & Fincham for the LONG FINGER FINGER:

- Spier writes for the long ring finger (The Hands of Chirldren, p.28): "In case it is much longer than the index an over-emphasis of the emotions is indicated, a too exclusive preoccupation with one's own world and a lack of appreciation of the values of the outside world of realities. This may lead to a too strongly stressed INTROVERSION of the emotions, particularly if the long ring finger has a decided inward bend toward the palm."

- However, Fincham writes for the long ring finger (Palmistry: From Apprentice to Pro in Twenty-Four Hours, p.198): "Extroverts naturally hold their finger widely spread. They often have grainy skin and a long peacock finger [= long ring finger]."

(Fincham also associates a long mirror (index) finger with introversion!)


I think the contradiction between the works of Spier & Fincham is quite obvious!!!

By the way, my recent Extraversion study indicates that Fincham's theory is much more likely correct.

Extraversion has been associated with high testosterone levels in young males. And Prof. Manning e.g. makes a report in his 2nd book [The Finger Book, p.44] that women with women with a low 2D:4D digit ratio were found to score high on Extraversion (though I should add here that there are more studies with conflicting results, but the most significant result confirmed the link between high extraversion and a low 2D:4D digit ratio).

So, I think it is important that the controversy that we are discussing is not focussed on just the palm... because the example that I have described above indicates that Spier's work is actually very controversial because his associations for the ring finger are not only disputable in the perspective of.Fincham's work, I think that actually many hand reading authors & hand readers will dispute Spier's guidelines for the ring finger - and I think Lynn is actually one of them (because she e.g. has described that the 2D:4D digit ratio findings make sense for her!

Now, Patti... I am looking forward to hear your response, because things are obviously much more complex than your reference to the work of Spier suggested!

Thanks!


PS. Let's be ware of the fact that Spier has background in psychoanalytic psychology, which could explain why his theories have some similarities with the other 'psychoanalytic authors': Yael Haft-Pomrock & Arnold Holtzman! Exclamation Exclamation

Spiers points out at the beginning of the same paragraph that the "ring finger displays the function of the emotions bound up with the inner life of the personality,..." at the beginning of the paragraph you quoted from on page 28.

I personally agree with his statement that you quoted. This is one of the first fingers whose stance shows discomfort in one's environment. He probably observed this in practice, as well.
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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:28 am

In regards to Spiers comment about the little finger being mainly related to the 'partner-relationship' and the sexual life, I think there's more to it than that.

He also states on page 30 "As far as its position and relationship to the other fingers are concerned it is usually somewhat concealed or covered by the other fingers because it expresses the function which is a most personal and intimate feature in the life of man."

He goes on to say: "The thumb which indicates the life-force as such and the little finger which expresses the sexual manifestation of this force occupy the two extreme positions in the hand."
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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:35 am

Spiers, page 33: "We have seen that thumb and index are bound up with the sphere of the consciousness and ring finger and the little finger with that of the unconscious."
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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:42 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

But there's a more specific problem...


There are more clear 'contradictions' between Spier's guidelines & Fincham's guidelines regarding the theme that we are discussing in this topic (inner- vs outer world), which become even more explicit visible regarding the descriptions presented by Spier & Fincham for the LONG FINGER FINGER:

- Spier writes for the long ring finger (The Hands of Chirldren, p.28): "In case it is much longer than the index an over-emphasis of the emotions is indicated, a too exclusive preoccupation with one's own world and a lack of appreciation of the values of the outside world of realities. This may lead to a too strongly stressed INTROVERSION of the emotions, particularly if the long ring finger has a decided inward bend toward the palm."

- However, Fincham writes for the long ring finger (Palmistry: From Apprentice to Pro in Twenty-Four Hours, p.198): "Extroverts naturally hold their finger widely spread. They often have grainy skin and a long peacock finger [= long ring finger]."

(Fincham also associates a long mirror (index) finger with introversion!)


I think the contradiction between the works of Spier & Fincham is quite obvious!!!



Again, regarding the ring finger - Spiers is talking about it bending into the palm and Johnny is talking about the distance between the fingers. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Also, the length (and other aspects) of the fingers shift their indications. Remember there is an inner and outer of everything in the hand, just to different degrees.
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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:47 am

I also don't think Spier's is describing a long ring finger as an indication of introversion. If the energy of the ring finger is more related to self, then you have the show-off, the person who has to be the center of attention, and other types who love to hear themselves carry on.
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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:07 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:

- Spier writes for the long ring finger (The Hands of Chirldren, p.28): "In case it is much longer than the index an over-emphasis of the emotions is indicated, a too exclusive preoccupation with one's own world and a lack of appreciation of the values of the outside world of realities. This may lead to a too strongly stressed INTROVERSION of the emotions, particularly if the long ring finger has a decided inward bend toward the palm."

Again, I don't think Spiers is describing an introverted personality type. He is describing the action of a person withdrawing their emotions - that is most noticed when the ring finger has a 'decided inward bend toward the palm."

On page 41, he describes the fingers held closely and held apart. "When the four fingers are clearly set off from each other the personality is free from constraint and is averse to compulsion and conventions."

Open fingers relate to an attitude of the moment and not a more lasting characteristic such as introversion and extroversion.

An introverted person in an environment they are at ease at, such as at the family dinner table may feel comfortable with fingers apart. Yet, sitting in the school cafeteria with a mix of friends and non-friends the fingers may be held closer together. An extrovert caught up in a situation where they feel defensive, doubtful or lacking trust will likely hold their fingers close together.

So, if someone is describing fingers apart or together in regards to introverted or extroverted it is only regarding the moment.

Sales people know that if a person's fingers are closed, the person is closed to what is being said... the customer is not going spend their money. Again, nothing whatsoever to do with introverted or extroverted.

Page 36, he writes about hand positions and a person being introverted or extroverted.

One of the points I've been making and I think Lynn has too, is the inner and outer nature of every aspect of the hands. This sentence shows that Spiers is aware of this as well.

"When the hand or the fingers do not touch, this harmony does not exist, but there is a discrepancy in the inner and external attitude of that part of the psyche which is represented by the particular part of the hand, often manifested by an irrational attitude or escape from reality into a strongly egocentric inner world.

Page 38, "It is a fact that thumb and index, which are allotted the task of penetrating the surrounding world, are less revealing as regards talents than the ring finger and the little finger which are intimately connected with and related to the personality and influenced from within."
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Post  Lynn on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:32 am

I've had a reply from Johnny Fincham.

Sadly, I have no time to get involved in forum discussions, though would love to get into them some day when I stop writing.
Basically, I don't use the quadrants, as they never worked and no two palmists ever agreed on quadrant order, so I never do the balance of the quadrant order thing we used to do. I denote the quad areas as :

ivory tower - the personal world, ego, order, ownership, ambition, possessions, control, influence.

outer world quadrant - communication, social connections, the outer world, business and financial skills, mental energy, other people,the social world.

sea of subcon quadrant - the collective subconscious, the psyche, the deep ‘well’ of subterranean emotions and impulses, the ‘inner child’, intuition.tribal memory, inner knowing,dreams intuitions

primal home,body quadrant - the ‘battery’ of stored nurturing and physical energy, fecundity, joie de vivre, ebullience, sensual and reproductive drives, sense of belonging,family,body physicality.

Hope this helps,
JF


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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:06 pm

Lynn wrote:I've had a reply from Johnny Fincham.

Sadly, I have no time to get involved in forum discussions, though would love to get into them some day when I stop writing.
Basically, I don't use the quadrants, as they never worked and no two palmists ever agreed on quadrant order, so I never do the balance of the quadrant order thing we used to do. I denote the quad areas as :

ivory tower - the personal world, ego, order, ownership, ambition, possessions, control, influence.

outer world quadrant - communication, social connections, the outer world, business and financial skills, mental energy, other people,the social world.

sea of subcon quadrant - the collective subconscious, the psyche, the deep ‘well’ of subterranean emotions and impulses, the ‘inner child’, intuition.tribal memory, inner knowing,dreams intuitions

primal home,body quadrant - the ‘battery’ of stored nurturing and physical energy, fecundity, joie de vivre, ebullience, sensual and reproductive drives, sense of belonging,family,body physicality.

Hope this helps,
JF


Thanks for sharing Lynn!

The answers includes a few more key-words, but I don't see a clear indication that he understood why you contacted him. So, I wonder whether you mentioned that you work with the principle 'ulnar palm = inner world'?


But maybe Johnny's answer does include a clue:

"... and no two palmists ever agreed on quadrant order"

Because these words suggest that he is aware that his quadrant-writings are not similar to the writings of the other 'elemental' authors (I could historically list them as: Fred Gettings, T. Dukes, Christopher Jones, Johnny Fincham & Jennifer Hirsch).


PS. Lynn, I think Johnny's use of the words 'social world' is more specific than 'outer world' - especially since it also relates more explicit to the key-words for the pinky and ring finger. I think it would make sense to adopt those words in my picture regarding the upper half of the ulnar palm... because the connection with the key-words for the pinky, ring finger & upper ulnar quadrant then would make even more sense.

And then the result would be to have a 'social world' and a 'personal world' representing the upper half of the hand in my picture!

How does this possibility sound to you Lynn?


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Post  Lynn on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:18 pm

But maybe Johnny's answer does include a clue:

"... and no two palmists ever agreed on quadrant order"

Because these words suggest that he is aware that his quadrant-writings are not similar to the writings of the other 'elemental' authors (I could historically list them as: Fred Gettings, T. Dukes, Christopher Jones, Johnny Fincham & Jennifer Hirsch).

No he's talking about when we used to measure quadrants in C.Soc - a tedious process of counting squares on acetate placed over a handprint, to determine the area of each quadrant, then put them in order of size.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:05 pm

Lynn wrote:
But maybe Johnny's answer does include a clue:

"... and no two palmists ever agreed on quadrant order"

Because these words suggest that he is aware that his quadrant-writings are not similar to the writings of the other 'elemental' authors (I could historically list them as: Fred Gettings, T. Dukes, Christopher Jones, Johnny Fincham & Jennifer Hirsch).

No he's talking about when we used to measure quadrants in C.Soc - a tedious process of counting squares on acetate placed over a handprint, to determine the area of each quadrant, then put them in order of size.

Anyway Lynn... did Johnny's answer become anyhow helpful for you to understand his word-choice?

(If not, it would best to specifying your question... scratch maybe your question was not very specific?)

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:06 pm

Patti wrote:
Why did you change the goal posts regarding the topic? It was presented in regards to not using philosophical ideas to describe the hand and the title is "The Thumb Represents the Inner Essence of Man".

You ask me to look through my literature to confirm your thoughts with keywords that substantiate your own still to be proven idea. It's your theory... you should support it yourself.

I will however respond to your request for an older publication.

This is from 1899 Holmes W. Merton "Descriptive Mentality"

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 12 Holmes10

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 12 Holmes11


Patti, I still haven't changed the objective of this topic at all. But during the discussion it became apparent to me that it would be best to present a chart with words that directly can be associated with the hand reading literature - especially since only then it will also become more clear how divided the literature really is regarding some part of the hand (read: some key-words)... but certainly not all parts of the hand!

Regarding my objective to avoid the use of philosophical key-words, this more relates to the use of a speculative vocabulary, such as the word: 'soul' & 'spirit' - which are usually associated with entitities of which it's existence is questioned... and the meaning of those words actually depends on it's philosophical/religious context!


So far my chart only include some psychology related vocabulary, such as the words: persona& role-identity.

I could add here that the word 'persona' (which in daily language one could be described as identification with the 'outer mask' - which serves to protect the 'ego-world') has been used in many hand reading books, including all Fincham's books (though he belongs to the few authors that associate 'persona' with the ring finger).

Hand reading authors with a psychoanalytic back ground usually relate 'persona' to the index finger (Holtzman & Haft-Pomrock - and authors such as: Rita Robinson & Jon Saint Germain have adopted their approach as well), or the fate line (Spier). So, all threee authors can be described to associate the 'persona' with the central-radial side of the hand... very close to the hand zones that are associated with 'social world'!

NOTICE: We could start an interesting discussion about the 'persona' (Jung), which has been recogized to show similarites with the "über-ich" (I-ideal) - which has connected by E. Sprong with the index finger (one can perceive this as a likewise approach). But basically, I think it makes sense here to follow those authors who have studied the psychoanalytic literature & used in therapy session - which can only be said about Holtzman, Haft-Pomrock & Spier... so then the 'persona' can best be associated with the index finger and the fate line.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:32 pm

Patti wrote:In regards to Spiers comment about the little finger being mainly related to the 'partner-relationship' and the sexual life, I think there's more to it than that.

He also states on page 30 "As far as its position and relationship to the other fingers are concerned it is usually somewhat concealed or covered by the other fingers because it expresses the function which is a most personal and intimate feature in the life of man."

He goes on to say: "The thumb which indicates the life-force as such and the little finger which expresses the sexual manifestation of this force occupy the two extreme positions in the hand."

Patti, we have already talked about the word 'intimacy'... and I think the word 'intimate feature' is likewisely related to the expression & manifestation of sexuality (directed at a partner).

Let's also be aware that in those days (when Spier wrote his writing) it was not common to speak about sexuality at all... and this could explain why it got associated with the 'personal' inner world. But one can say that today sexuality has become much more associated with the social world (in large parts of the western society it is even no longer associated with the boundaries of marriage & relationships... it became accepted in the much wider social dimension!).

I think this could explain why the association 'ulnar side = inner world' only became manifest in the books published after the 70's.

Due the to sexual revolution (60's-80's) the paradigma of the 'inner world' has changed: sexuality became much more an 'outer-world' issue!

And in this perspective, we get FORCED to define things very precisely regarding what the 'inner world' & 'outer world' really concerns!

Thanks!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:49 pm

Patti wrote:I also don't think Spier's is describing a long ring finger as an indication of introversion. If the energy of the ring finger is more related to self, then you have the show-off, the person who has to be the center of attention, and other types who love to hear themselves carry on.

Patti, you may think so... but your perception does not make sense we take Spier's words literally!

Because Spier first describes how the long ring finger is associated with 'exclusive preoccupation with one's own world':

"In case it [ring finger] is much longer than the index an over-emphasis of the emotions is indicated, a too exclusive preoccupation with one's own world and a lack of appreciation of the values of the outside world of realities."

Then he describes how this preoccupation may lead to introversion:

"This may lead to a too strongly stressed INTROVERSION of the emotions, ..."

And finally, Spier describes how this tendency becomes even stronger when the ring finger is bend inward to the palm:

"... particularly if the long ring finger has a decided inward bend toward the palm."


So, it doesn't make sense to claim that Spier does not associate the long ring finger with introversion... because he literally does make the connection!


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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:42 pm

Martijn, what you seem to not recognize is the inner and outer, positive and negative pulse of the entire hand. All parts of all hands have this nature and can in the moment be described as representing a behavior that in one situation is extroverted and in another is introverted.

The ring finger is on the inner half of the vertical division. Which fits the inner nature or introversion. But, it is also at the top half of the hand which fits the outer nature or extroverted aspect.

We could argue if the ring finger is associated with being introverted or extroverted all day and not get anywhere as it has the faculties to be either.

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Post  Patti on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:45 pm

As to pulling together author's viewpoints to support one view or another, I really find that a waste of my time and boring. Also, it is obvious that many keywords are subjective to the writer and mean different things between them, and between us.

p.s.: I did mention earlier in this discussion that Judith Hipskind's book best illustrates the points I've been making. "Palmistry the Whole View"
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Post  Lynn on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:33 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Anyway Lynn... did Johnny's answer become anyhow helpful for you to understand his word-choice?

(If not, it would best to specifying your question... scratch maybe your question was not very specific?)

Because Johnny didn't have the time to get involved in the discussion, hence didn't answer my 3 questions, you now wonder how specific my question was. *sigh* Rolling Eyes

Johnny's keywords didn't help my understanding.
BUT thinking about his words "I never do the balance of the quadrant order thing we used to do." made me think about how we used to do the quadrant orders.

Remembering quadrant orders, it occurred to me that Idea actually Johnny's keywords do make sense when I relate it to leaning fingers, ie -
Fingers leaning to ulna side of the hand is more directed to inner world, fingers leading to radial side focus more on externals - P42 Spellbinding Power.

Because when all the fingers are leaning to the radial side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Ivory Tower quadrant, making it a weak area in the person. Hence no inner life, nor sense of self, sense of control, and greater dependence on externals.
When fingers lean to the ulna side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Public Stage quadrant so there is less emphasis on outer world, social connections, other people.

So in that sense, it still fits with my previous understanding of leaning fingers.






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