I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

Martijn (admin) wrote:

[color=darkred]The picture above is taken from Christopher's work, which represents a map based on an idea of 'energy flow' according Benham: the index finger was described by Benham as the recipent of universal energy (reminds me of the famous painting below)

...

Hmmm... just discovered this website:
http://www.medstudentlc.com/page.php?id=110

The pictures (see below) suggest that in terms of the nerve system the index finger and middle finger are related, including the palmar zones below those finger.

Therefore it probably makes sense to associate the ulnar side of the hand with pinky + ring finger, and the radial side with the middle finger, index finger (+ thumb).

(Also interesting to see that only the dorsal radial side of the palm has a nerve system not associated with the inner side of the hand - except the lower thenar)

Lynn wrote:

Patti wrote:Kind of shows how the elements have been applied based on the current frame of mind and focus of the person making the assignment of the moment.

Lynn has often pointed out that you can't stop with just one part. For instance, the 2nd phalange of the thumb ranges from short to long and waisted to bulging. I'm sure the 5E system would have an app for that.

"an app" - I like that eg stiffness = earth, flexible = water, short phal = more fire, long phal = more air, then there's the fingerprint, tip shape, setting etc.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:
I have created this topic in order to generate further discussion;
so your ideas and/or feedback is very welcome!

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Well, in our PM discussion we appear to have arrived at a point where you question where Johnny has managed to describe/name his 'world stage' properly... so I think this illustrates that there is a contradiction in his work, but the implications are not yet clear (if Johnny would deny and start argueing... then the contradiction would become a matter of rethorics only - but then I could still start a likewise debate about the inconsistencies that I have also spotted in the works of Dukes... Jones - I refer to my earlier response regarding his 'air-like' guidelines for the 2nd thumb phalange and naming it the 'water-phalange')

I do wish now since the two of you have moved the discussion to PMs and are ignoring most other member's input nearly daily, you had just gone to PM from the start and not wasted everyone's time as it seems there was a fixed agenda from the start and discussion was not really welcome at all.

Well Patti, the PM discussion started only yesterday at the moment where I had noticed that there appears to be a contradiction in what Johnny writes regarding extraversion.

But there is not much to tell, I could summarize the PM-conversation by sharing the following:

I asked Lynn the following:

Martijn_admin wrote:"Lynn, from your response above... I can conclude that in your view it's alright to associate the pinky finger with 'communication', the ring finger with 'self-expression', and the upper palmar quadrant with 'public stage'.

Correct?"

Lynn's interesting response to this question was:

Lynn wrote:pinky & ring finger - yes. Air quadrant = public stage I'm not sure about, this is where Johnny has gone off and developed his own ideas. I can see how the air quadrant might 'set the scene' for the public stage ie provide the backdrop for the peacock to perform. But I think it's probably more like the stage before the audience come into the theatre - "behind the scenes" preparation!

And I responded with the following questions... which have yet to be answered by Lynn:

Martijn_admin wrote:Aha, finally... nice to see that you are able to confirm here that you do perceive a problem in Johnny's writing about 'world stage'!

Lynn, I think your suggestion regarding a "stage before the audience come into the theatre"... does not appear to make sense in the perspective of the fact that Johnny actually directly associates his 'public stage' with other people AND social connections in his first sentence.

So, I think that your response is an attempt to put Johnny's "world stage"-theory upside down(!)... by suggesting that Johnny is actually trying to say what you think - even though his description implicates the opposite or your idea for the upper ulnar palmar zone.

Correct?

Hmmm... looks like we have arrived at an 'surprising' point in our discussion, because I think for the first time that you now actually have bumped yourself into a question that you would love to see anwered by Johnny!

Correct?

So... basically, at this point I perceive Johnny's descriptions for both the upper palmar quadrants + the fingers as a confirmation of my observation that most key words in the field of hand reading indicates that the ulnar side of the hand represents the outer world and the radial side of the hand represents the inner world.

Because Johnny's descriptions for the 2 upper quadrants are (see page 81 in his 2nd book):

- Upper ulnar palmar quadrant: 'public stage' (both his word suggest: more outer world)
- Upper unlar palmart quadrant: 'ivory tower' (Johnny's expression suggest: more inner world)

And Johnny's descriptions for the 4 fingers are (see page 34 in his 2nd book):

- Pinky: 'communication' (Johnny's word suggests: interaction with outer world)
- Ring finger: 'self-expression' (Johnny's words suggests: expression to outer world)
- Middle finger: 'one's attitude so society' (Johnny's word suggests: perception of the outer world)
- Index finger: 'sense of self' (Johnny's words suggest: inner world perception)


So, all these key-words suggests that a well developed upper ulnar palmar quadrant + a well developed pinky & ring finger + a weak developed upper radial palmar quadrant + a weak developed middle finger + index finger could be linked with extraversion.

(E.g. Johnny associates the long pinky with 'recieving & transmitting language effectively' + 'natural eloquence'; he associates the long ring finger with: 'high levels of testosterone' + 'need for attention' + 'flirtatiousness', and the short index finger with: 'loud jovial public person' - these are all descriptions that point towards extraversion).

And the reverse developments could be linked with introversion

(E.g. Johnny associates the short pinky with 'getting overloaded easily'; and the long middle finger: 'a bit dull'; and the long index finger with 'keeping a diary or personal journal' + 'self-reflective pursuits' + 'anything related to the arts of looking into themselves' + 'self-criticism'; ... which is typical for an introvert).


PS. Patti, there is no fixed agenda - did I leave any of your questions unanswered?.

Martijn (admin) wrote:


So... basically, at this point I perceive Johnny's descriptions for both the upper palmar quadrants + the fingers as a confirmation of my observation that most key words in the field of hand reading indicates that the ulnar side of the hand represents the outer world and the radial side of the hand represents the inner world.

Because Johnny's descriptions for the 2 upper quadrants are (see page 81 in his 2nd book):

- Upper ulnar palmar quadrant: 'public stage' (both his word suggest: more outer world)
- Upper unlar palmart quadrant: 'ivory tower' (Johnny's expression suggest: more inner world)

And Johnny's descriptions for the 4 fingers are (see page 34 in his 2nd book):

- Pinky: 'communication' (Johnny's word suggests: interaction with outer world)
- Ring finger: 'self-expression' (Johnny's words suggests: expression to outer world)
- Middle finger: 'one's attitude so society' (Johnny's word suggests: perception of the outer world)
- Index finger: 'sense of self' (Johnny's words suggest: inner world perception)


So, all these key-words suggests that a well developed upper ulnar palmar quadrant + a well developed pinky & ring finger + a weak developed upper radial palmar quadrant + a weak developed middle finger + index finger could be linked with extraversion.

(E.g. Johnny associates the long pinky with 'recieving & transmitting language effectively' + 'natural eloquence'; he associates the long ring finger with: 'high levels of testosterone' + 'need for attention' + 'flirtatiousness', and the short index finger with: 'loud jovial public person' - these are all descriptions that point towards extraversion).

And the reverse developments could be linked with introversion

(E.g. Johnny associates the short pinky with 'getting overloaded easily'; and the long middle finger: 'a bit dull'; and the long index finger with 'keeping a diary or personal journal' + 'self-reflective pursuits' + 'anything related to the arts of looking into themselves' + 'self-criticism'; ... which is typical for an introvert).


PS. Patti, there is no fixed agenda - did I leave any of your questions unanswered?.

Lynn wrote:

Patti wrote:I do wish now since the two of you have moved the discussion to PMs and are ignoring most other member's input nearly daily, you had just gone to PM from the start and not wasted everyone's time as it seems there was a fixed agenda from the start and discussion was not really welcome at all.

I'm aware that there are lots of posts I haven't replied to, I've already apologised for that twice during the last week & said I can't keep up with the discussion so I focussed on answering questions that Martijn directly put to me. Where I haven't replied to you is mainly because I agree (we need a 'like' button!). Everything we said in PM yesterday was reproduced here in last night's discussion, apart from the last one which Martijn has just posted.

I don't know what you mean by a fixed agenda?? I'm not aware of any agenda.
From my point of view discussion is very welcome, I would love to know more about how others view the thumb and inner/outer. I don't know why this discussion became so focussed on the 5-element system as very few people use it, I'd like to hear more from other schools of thought.

Patti wrote:There is almost a liquid type of changing, shifting energy. Johnny isn't really contradicting himself, he is just switching back and forth between the polarities. 2 sides of the same coin. For every public action there is a private motivation.

A quadrant cannot stand or act alone. It's truly impossible (in actual hand reading) to isolate with accuracy only one polarity and one function to a part of the hand. Passive can become action and action can be stiffled - by energies that also flow though other parts of the hand and the self.

Most authors write enough adjectives that when a person puts the thoughts into practice and listens to the feedback they get the gist of a non-verbal essence. This non-verbal essence is described by the limited vocabulary, and the frame of mind, and the experiences of the author.

Patti wrote:

Lynn wrote:

Patti wrote:I do wish now since the two of you have moved the discussion to PMs and are ignoring most other member's input nearly daily, you had just gone to PM from the start and not wasted everyone's time as it seems there was a fixed agenda from the start and discussion was not really welcome at all.

I'm aware that there are lots of posts I haven't replied to, I've already apologised for that twice during the last week & said I can't keep up with the discussion so I focussed on answering questions that Martijn directly put to me. Where I haven't replied to you is mainly because I agree (we need a 'like' button!). Everything we said in PM yesterday was reproduced here in last night's discussion, apart from the last one which Martijn has just posted.

I don't know what you mean by a fixed agenda?? I'm not aware of any agenda.
From my point of view discussion is very welcome, I would love to know more about how others view the thumb and inner/outer. I don't know why this discussion became so focussed on the 5-element system as very few people use it, I'd like to hear more from other schools of thought.

It isn't about replying to me, it's about the general ignoring of a number of other members contributions sprinkled throughout the conversation. The three of us became an illusionary ivory tower with lofty talk.

I wondered too about how this became a topic based on primarily Dukes and Fincham's choice of words and the 5E system. It seems now that Martijn is working to create a visual two dimensional illustration of Johnny's work as seen from his own perspective.

Regarding agenda.... this interaction started to feel like participating in a softball game where Martijn was the batter, always the batter and no matter what you tossed his way he was ready to bat it into foul territory if it didn't match his preconceived notion. Watching you become an "exhausted banana" I thought of you as sometimes the bat.... or a rag doll shook until whatever information you could spit out was out.

Patti wrote:

Patti wrote:Keywords for Little Finger - Auricular Finger (ear - typically fits inside the ear) relates to hearing and listening. The key to good communication is listening. Listening is a receptive inner quality. (my keywords in bold)

Listening is 60% of Communication

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Map of the hand:

'The mind projected into the hand via concepts from the works of 11 hand reading authors'

(This new hand-map includes 12 concepts: 4 for each finger + 4 for each palmar quadrant + 4 for the two phalanges of the thumb, the thenar & the hypothenar)

NOTICE: P.C.F. = 'primary cognitive function'

Lynn wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Map of the hand:

'The mind projected into the hand via concepts from the works of 11 hand reading authors'

(This new hand-map includes 12 concepts: 4 for each finger + 4 for each palmar quadrant + 4 for the two phalanges of the thumb, the thenar & the hypothenar)

NOTICE: P.C.F. = 'primary cognitive function'

Martijn, I think it might be more accurate to call it 'The mind projected into the hand via selective concepts from the works of 11 hand reading authors'.
At first glance I see some inconsistency in your approach.
For example you quote Christopher Jones for the ulna quadrant "Sea of Subconscious" yet you label the ulna side of the hand "outer world" when Christopher has already explained that he sees the radial side as relating to the outer world.
You were very critical of Nathaniel Altman's work, yet you quote him for little finger.
You quote Fred Gettings for the ring finger, yet ignore the fact that he associated the thumb with the external world.
You ignore other authors who see ulna side as 'inner' and radial side as 'outer'.
This brings to mind Patti's words about 'agenda' and things being disregarded if it didn't match your preconceived notion.
by the way, you use Johnny's quadrants without drawing lines to show that the thumb and fingers are not included in those divisions.
those are just my first impressions of your new hand map.

Lynn, did you noticed the 'sentience world' in the lower left corner?

(Your writing suggests that you over-looked that label; only the upper ulnar half is now connected with the 'outer word'... though maybe I have to point this out more explict in the picture??? )


PS. By the way, I have searched for the names of the 'oldest' authors who have used the individual labels... so any recommendation regarding an 'older' authors is welcome: I will probably adopt it then in the picture.

The issue is here that none of the authors use all those 12 labels! However, in the next stage I will feature my picture will include a list for each author summarizing those labels (of the 12 labels) that the author also uses... so then this problem will become solved as well!

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Lynn wrote:Martijn said

So, I think that your response is an attempt to put Johnny's "world stage"-theory upside down(!)... by suggesting that Johnny is actually trying to say what you think - even though his description implicates the opposite or your idea for the upper ulnar palmar zone.

Correct?

Hmmm... looks like we have arrived at an 'surprising' point in our discussion, because I think for the first time that you now actually have bumped yourself into a question that you would love to see anwered by Johnny!

Correct?

I wasn't attempting to put Johnny's theory upside down, I was trying to understand it and explain how I would interpret it. Yes of course I would like to hear more about it from Johnny. ( I'm not sure why that surprises you?). So far you have asked lots of questions about 5-element system, which I know something about. But Johnny is the only author who talks about the 'world stage', he came up with the concept, therefore he would be the best person to tell us more about how he sees that quadrant.

Well Lynn, my surprise was the result to see you describing that it is hard for you to understand why Johnny choose the words 'world stage' for the upper ulnar palmar quadrant.

But I can add here that your problem regarding those words does make sense in the perspective that you associate the ulnar palm with 'inner world'; because I think it is quite obvious... that it would make sense to associate any kind of 'world stage' with the outer world.


Lynn, I am willing to invite Johnny to explain here why he has chosen to start using the words 'world stage' and 'ivory tower'... however, I think that both terms CLEARY suggest that Johnny associates the upper ulnar palmar quadrant more with the 'outer world' and the upper radial quadrant more with the 'inner world'.

By the way, Lynn... I don't think there is not much room left for interpretation here, because Johnny writes in his first book on page 7:

"Mercury quadrant [upper ulnar palmar quadrant] - communication, social connections, the outer world, ..."
...
"Jupiter quadrant [upper radial palmar quadrant] - the personal world, ego, ..."


I think this perfectly makes sense regarding classic archetypes, but I think that his uses of the archetypes 'mercury' and 'jupiter' indicates that Johnny does not see much difference between the fingers and the palm regarding a vertical division of the hand.

For, his key-words for the pink (communication) and ring finger (self-expression)... clearly relate to his description for his 'world stage'. And his key-works for the middle finger (attitude to society) and index finger (sense of self)... also clearly relate to his discription for his 'ivory tower'.



Hmmm... as I have already started using the quadrants in my picture, it would now actually perfectly make sense for me to adopt Johnny's term 'personal world' in my picture regarding the upper radial half of the hand!

Then I only have to find some key-words to describe the lower ulnar part of the hand!

... After making this observation I think that Johnny's words in all three books actually speak for themselves.


Lynn, I am still thinking about what's left for me to ask Johnny... (because from my point of view, after reading his descriptions in both books - including the quotes above - there is actually not much left for me to ask Johnny to be explained regarding his vocabulary).

Anyway, I am willing to contact Johnny about this issue... but I would like to invite you to formulate a question that will help you out regarding how to interpretate Johnny's key-words.

Lynn wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Map of the hand:

'The mind projected into the hand via concepts from the works of 11 hand reading authors'

(This new hand-map includes 12 concepts: 4 for each finger + 4 for each palmar quadrant + 4 for the two phalanges of the thumb, the thenar & the hypothenar)

NOTICE: P.C.F. = 'primary cognitive function'

Martijn, I think it might be more accurate to call it 'The mind projected into the hand via selective concepts from the works of 11 hand reading authors'.
At first glance I see some inconsistency in your approach.
For example you quote Christopher Jones for the ulna quadrant "Sea of Subconscious" yet you label the ulna side of the hand "outer world" when Christopher has already explained that he sees the radial side as relating to the outer world.
You were very critical of Nathaniel Altman's work, yet you quote him for little finger.
You quote Fred Gettings for the ring finger, yet ignore the fact that he associated the thumb with the external world.
You ignore other authors who see ulna side as 'inner' and radial side as 'outer'.
This brings to mind Patti's words about 'agenda' and things being disregarded if it didn't match your preconceived notion.
by the way, you use Johnny's quadrants without drawing lines to show that the thumb and fingers are not included in those divisions.
those are just my first impressions of your new hand map.

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

Patti wrote:Keywords for Little Finger - Auricular Finger (ear - typically fits inside the ear) relates to hearing and listening. The key to good communication is listening. Listening is a receptive inner quality. (my keywords in bold)

Listening is 60% of Communication

Well, it depends on what you mean with 'listening'... if voice-pitch is included then the 60% could indeed be a good estimate.

Unfortunately, in this discussion we all depend on each others reading & writing abilities - which is in this forum situation the alternative for 'listening' and 'speaking words'.

Thanks Patti - by the way, next to the pinky (mind) I think also the hypothenar (senses/body language + emotion/voice pitch: see my new map) plays a major role regarding 'communiciation'.

Lynn wrote:Yes I did miss sentience world, but I think most of my observations still apply, and you said yourself "The issue is here that none of the authors use all those 12 labels!", which implies that I was correct when I said "selective concepts from the works of 11 hand reading authors". It seems you have selected labels that best suit your own idea of the map of the hand, ignored some of the other ideas of the authors you quoted, and also ignored or rejected the ideas of many other authors which would conflict with your map. I await the next stage.

Yes Lynn, all labels included in the picture are indeed the result of (careful) selection proces... of course!!

In my previous response I have explained that the picture is not complete yet - because it will also be featured with a list displaying for each individual author (the ones that are included in the picture) how many- and which of these labels/concepts they have been using (literally or via the use of synonyms).

So I can inform you that I have not ignored anything at all - because so far I have only presented a picture with well-known authors who have introduced/described how to use the concept(s) featured above their names!


Also, please be aware... that we are faced here with a FUNDAMENTAL problem:

Yes, some authors are indeed using theories that suggest the opposite of some of the key-words in this picture. But my picture is actually suppossed to present some assistance to deal with this problem, by presenting a set of labels which combined together do not violate the fundamental meaning of any of the other labels!

For example:

Earlier in this discussion I have already described that it is quite a mystery to me why (long ago!) the pinky got associated with 'inner world' in the works of various authors... despite that it always gets associated with communication, intimacy, relationships, marriage, children, etc. etc.

(I am willing to discuss the works of any of those authors... maybe the work of Spier would be an interesting example to start with - as it was already mentioned by Patti!)


So, in the perspective of the (many) inconsistencies found in the literature... in my view it's a proper strategy to search for the concepts that have been described and explained most well - e.g. with consistent arguments regarding how to interpretate the key-words etc.

And I am willing to explain how I have selected these individual labels!


However Lynn, I have the impression that this new picture actually does not present much 'food for thought' for you at all! Because I am aware that you are using yourself a very large majority of these labels - or synonyms that have likewise meaning.

It appears that your attention is all focussed on the label 'outer world'... which is featured twice(!!) in my picture. But I did not hear you saying explicit that Johnny Fincham's 'outer world' label for the upper radial palmar quadrant doesn't make sense to you - you only tried to argue and describe why you yourself actually ASSOCIATE that quadrant with 'inner world'.

But so far you didn't make any attempt to question the other key-words used by Johnny for that specific quadrant. And therefore I have the impression that it actually requires for you only a small step in your thinking... to learn understand why Johnny has adopted the label 'outer world' for the upper ulnar palmar quadrant!

And I am quite sure that as soon as you understand Johnny's choice a little bit better, it will become much easier for you to also understand why other authors - such as Birla from Canada & Sprong in The Netherlands who each have managed to share their works with literally tousands of students in their hand reading schools - have actually used the same label for the full ulnar side of the hand as well.

By the way, I would like to point out here that some part of their (general) 'ulnar' approach is not featured in my picture either: because the words 'outer world' are in my picture only associated with the upper ulnar hand!

Looking forward to see your response to this post Lynn!

Lynn wrote:
OK I have sent my question to Johnny in the hope that he will clarify things for me.

Patti wrote:

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti wrote:

Patti wrote:Keywords for Little Finger - Auricular Finger (ear - typically fits inside the ear) relates to hearing and listening. The key to good communication is listening. Listening is a receptive inner quality. (my keywords in bold)

Listening is 60% of Communication

Well, it depends on what you mean with 'listening'... if voice-pitch is included then the 60% could indeed be a good estimate.

Unfortunately, in this discussion we all depend on each others reading & writing abilities - which is in this forum situation the alternative for 'listening' and 'speaking words'.

Thanks Patti - by the way, next to the pinky (mind) I think also the hypothenar (senses/body language + emotion/voice pitch: see my new map) plays a major role regarding 'communiciation'.

Yes, the example for this group would relate the listening aspect to reading between the lines, the innuendos, choices of words, font, color, and things like that in people's text to pick up on the expression and tone behind the words. The act of being receptive to someone else's output. Reading a post is a taking in energy and writing a post is an outward energy. Both are forms of communication.

When describing fingers we look at qualities such as smooth or knobby knuckles, blunt or pointy fingertips, and few or many horizontal lines for how information flows in and out.

p.s.: Regarding the forum aspect , you missed the humor or point in my communication. It was a response to your post saying that you couldn't find anything *published* on my website, so I added my comment to a webpage and added the link here. My communication was meant to be humorous, but you apparently didn't receive it that way.

Hi Patti,

Thank you for explaining what you had in mind.
But are you suggesting that I am not listening to your arguments? Or Lynn's arguments?

Is so, please summarize what you perceive/think/assume that I have missed...


PS. What is your intend regarding the info that you published on your website? How do you think that the info about the so-called 'auricular finger' could become helpful in this discussion?

Patti wrote:I wondered when you'd stop thinking quadrants and ulnar and radial and remember there's a medial nerve.

You shouldn't assume that when I start talking about nerves... that I 'stop thinking' about other perspectives.

What is your point, Patti?

anithapalm wrote:Hello..

Top phalanges of the thumb displays the will power and bottom part displays logical aspects. I am bit curious to know how we do reading the thumb practically with this idea. how can we read the logical aspect of a man just by reading his bottom phalanges of thumb..! plz anyone explain this...

Hello anithapalm,

Thank you for your question, but we are discussing here the theories & principles described in the hand reading literature. So this topic is not about the 'practical aspect' of hand reading.

Would you mind to post your question in a new topic?



PS. In general, 'logic' is not only associated with 2nd thumb phalange... it is also associated with e.g. the length of the head line & the length of the index finger.

knox gillespie wrote: The thumb can been seen in many layers of models and ideas.. Like ,autonomy, what is the glue that holds the personality in the freedom to learn and grow.. Or, correct knowledge,
three different ways are described about how one acquires correct knowing. These are direct perception, reasoning, and validation. Each of them are valid, and standing alone can provide correct knowing, though you want the three to be in agreement. This description of correct knowing applies both to mundane ways of knowing, such as seeing objects in the external world, and to spiritual insights on the inner journey.