discussion on hand types via the elements

hi Kiran, yes there are deviations, for example when fingers are medium length.
Above I listed the 4 basic handshapes but then you have combinations such as Richard uses Water/Fire, Fire/Air etc.

In 5 element system it would be impossible to have e.g. a water/earth combination handshape (long narrow palm & long fingers, combined with square palm & short fingers!). But they might have an earth handshape with water skin texture.
I prefer to assess the lines separately rather than combine them with handshape into 'types'. Then of course you put it all together like doing a jigsaw.

Yes Lynn, I read about the combining factors in the earlier part of this conversation.
Hand shape + skin texture + line character etc.

After all these permutations and combination of 5 elements in nature does a man evolve.
So, should be the hand as it has to reflect the person made up of 5 elements and is living.

Hello Kiran,

Refer your post please.I have not read 5 elements and can not comment much.Just interested in the mathematical model.I can understand that 5 element cheirology takes 5 elements like earth,air etc.In strictest sense permutation P(n,r) doesnt hold good as repetations will mean the same thing.

So lets try combinations C(n,r) where repetations are not allowed.If variables are 5 and we take the possible combinations,they will be

C(5,1)+C(5,2)+C(5,3)+C(5,4)+C(5,5) = 31.
5!/1!(5-1)1!...........................+5!/5!(5-5)! = 31
5+10+10+5+1 = 31

So possibly we get 31 combinations and not 5.31 combinations I guess is a reasonable and feasible clasification if the author has made so.

Would like to hear from you.

Best Regards
Raman

Hi Raman,
I don't understand the mathematical equations!
What combinations / hand features are you talking about? Combining the 5 elements...how? 31 possible combinations of what?
Bear in mind that the ether element is hardly used, ether is the whole or the combination of all the elements, so for most of the hand features we have only 4 elements to play with :-)

Lynn wrote:Hi Raman,
I don't understand the mathematical equations!

Hello Lynn,

The formula is a simple combination formula I am trying to use it in Palmistry.Let me refine it.I ll come back. Those doing astrology should be using them.Also I guess the online vedic astrology software feed the system with various combinations of planetary positions to give computer generated reading.We can use it in palmistry as well.

Regards
Raman

Ramann wrote:Hello Kiran,

Refer your post please.I have not read 5 elements and can not comment much.Just interested in the mathematical model.I can understand that 5 element cheirology takes 5 elements like earth,air etc.In strictest sense permutation P(n,r) doesnt hold good as repetations will mean the same thing.

So lets try combinations C(n,r) where repetations are not allowed.If variables are 5 and we take the possible combinations,they will be

C(5,1)+C(5,2)+C(5,3)+C(5,4)+C(5,5) = 31.
5!/1!(5-1)1!...........................+5!/5!(5-5)! = 31
5+10+10+5+1 = 31

So possibly we get 31 combinations and not 5.31 combinations I guess is a reasonable and feasible clasification if the author has made so.

Would like to hear from you.

Best Regards
Raman

Hey Raman, I am seeing this post now! Somehow, missed it out.
Here, we are just referring to possible combinations. As you said - yes, its C(n,r). But, I don't think anybody would have tried out exactly like this.( My opinion). B.t.w. when you said - AUTHOR - whom did you refer to?

Kiran.Katawa wrote:

Ramann wrote:Hello Kiran,

Refer your post please.I have not read 5 elements and can not comment much.Just interested in the mathematical model.I can understand that 5 element cheirology takes 5 elements like earth,air etc.In strictest sense permutation P(n,r) doesnt hold good as repetations will mean the same thing.

So lets try combinations C(n,r) where repetations are not allowed.If variables are 5 and we take the possible combinations,they will be

C(5,1)+C(5,2)+C(5,3)+C(5,4)+C(5,5) = 31.
5!/1!(5-1)1!...........................+5!/5!(5-5)! = 31
5+10+10+5+1 = 31

So possibly we get 31 combinations and not 5.31 combinations I guess is a reasonable and feasible clasification if the author has made so.

Would like to hear from you.

Best Regards
Raman

Hey Raman, I am seeing this post now! Somehow, missed it out.
Here, we are just referring to possible combinations. As you said - yes, its C(n,r). But, I don't think anybody would have tried out exactly like this.( My opinion). B.t.w. when you said - AUTHOR - whom did you refer to?

Hello Kiran,

My thanks for commenting on the equation.Its a very simple combination equation.I only referred your post and refer to the author of 5/4 elements.Offlate I have been thinking of this possible combinations in palmistry.Hope you will understand that Astrology is using only possible combinations.

I have not read the 5 elements or elemental chirology.Just what I think can improve the theory.

Example take the life prints.Author of life prints have taken some variations of finger tips pattern.(Dont go by facts,I am just trying to infer a possible idea)

Say there are 10 fingers and we have 8 variations of finger prints.So for the possible combinations of dominant characteristics what we get is C(10,8 ) variations. If we can classify all of them,can you imagine the number of personality types we get.Much more than what anyone has classified.But its a mammoth task.

Regards
Raman

Ramann wrote:

Lynn wrote:Hi Raman,
I don't understand the mathematical equations!

Hello Lynn,
The formula is a simple combination formula I am trying to use it in Palmistry.Let me refine it.I ll come back.
Regards
Raman

Thanks Raman. Meanwhile I looked online about permutations and combinations, so I (almost) understand the formula & what C, n, r represent.

But I am not sure what you are applying it to. Combinations of elements in which hand feature? Or are you trying to apply it to every feature of the hand?

For example if we look just at handshape: You can have the 4 pure shapes - earth, water, fire, air. Then there are the combination shapes eg earth/fire, fire/air, fire/water etc. But not all combinations are possible eg you can't have an earth/water combination handshape (a square palm with short fingers combined with a narrow rectangular palm with long fingers). So, are you still able to apply the formula to handshape?
(please forgive me if I misunderstood it, this formula of combinations is new to me, I am trying to understand your idea.)

You said "It's a mammoth task". I fear it might be 'mission impossible'!

Given that every hand is unique, no two hands are alike, it seems to me that there could be an infinite number of combinations when you look at all the hand features. (or at least a very very VERY big number!).

Hi Raman,
Got what you're saying.

About 5 elements: Its not new to you. I suppose you're using it, but, may be not aware of the terminology. 5 elements are Earth, Water, Fir, Air and Ether. Everything in hand, hand shape, skin texture, fingers, lines etc are classified into these elements( leaving Ether). For ex: Jupiter, Saturn, Apollo and Mercury fingers are classified as Water, Earth, Fire and Air fingers.
The greatest advantage with 5E system is everything in hand can be related to 5E. So, if you're clear about too much/too less/just right portion of an element - you can easily apply it to the particular feature of the hand under consideration. For ex: I suppose, you know the Fire hand shape and so its characterstics. A Heart line curving and ending in between Jupiter and Saturn finger is called a Fire type Heart line. So, you can apply the Fire characterstics to this Heart line - out going, passionate, expressive, warm/burn, get connected to people etc. This is what is 5E in summary. Feels like the whole palmistry, different lines finally condensed under one umbrella.

I dervied very great interest in this system 'coz, everything in nature is 5E and human being is made up of 5E. Even our Ayurveda is based on this. And so, are our hands.

You can visit Jennifer Hirsh's website and download the sample pages of her books and get a glance of these elements. Refer her blogs also for more info on this. Even Johnny, our Lynn, Christopher all use this 5E. I think all who worked in British Cheirological Society gave importance to the 5E. (Ofcourse, others also use it. Even Unger's system also refers these).

Yes, the possible combination is huge. But, it can't be linear. For ex: Say I have earth type of hand; My Water phalange(lower phalange) on Fire finger(Apollo) is long and I have Air type Head line, Water Heartline with a skin texture which is half Fire and half Air.
Getting it?

Hope this was useful to you.

Hello Kiran,

Thanks for the details.You comprehended exacly what I meant. .Yes the variables are too random to give a linear equation.Had just shared my thought.


Raman

Lynn wrote:

Ramann wrote:

Lynn wrote:Hi Raman,
I don't understand the mathematical equations!

Hello Lynn,
The formula is a simple combination formula I am trying to use it in Palmistry.Let me refine it.I ll come back.
Regards
Raman

Thanks Raman. Meanwhile I looked online about permutations and combinations, so I (almost) understand the formula & what C, n, r represent.

But I am not sure what you are applying it to. Combinations of elements in which hand feature? Or are you trying to apply it to every feature of the hand?

For example if we look just at handshape: You can have the 4 pure shapes - earth, water, fire, air. Then there are the combination shapes eg earth/fire, fire/air, fire/water etc. But not all combinations are possible eg you can't have an earth/water combination handshape (a square palm with short fingers combined with a narrow rectangular palm with long fingers). So, are you still able to apply the formula to handshape?
(please forgive me if I misunderstood it, this formula of combinations is new to me, I am trying to understand your idea.)

You said "It's a mammoth task". I fear it might be 'mission impossible'!

Given that every hand is unique, no two hands are alike, it seems to me that there could be an infinite number of combinations when you look at all the hand features. (or at least a very very VERY big number!).

Hello Lynn,

Yes.....Its huge numbers we are taking.Precisely the same idea is captured and elucidated by Kiran brilliantly.You can refer the post response of Kiran.

Raman.

Ramann wrote:Hello Kiran,

Thanks for the details.You comprehended exacly what I meant. .Yes the variables are too random to give a linear equation.Had just shared my thought.


Raman

Good to know that I understood you exactly .

Thanks for your replies Kiran & Raman

Hello all,

Charlote wolfe in her book human hand has classified hand based on scientific study wherein she describes several combination which she has categorized in twelve categrories of hand types
some which include categories such as listed below
1) elementary simple with elementary irregular like wise you have motoric bony with sensitive small ect wherein she has divided into hadn into three categories such as elemntary, motoric, senstive and like for every category she has created a subdivision two of which come under prehensile and other one under touch category. probbaly this would be good combination to work out. She has listed twelve combination, she did mention she has left two other combinations

Thanks
Anand