Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

**Martijn (admin)** Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:00 am

Patti wrote:Why quote a source? My experience is my resource.

Sure, I can explain my request:

I asked for a source because I wonder whether you know any hand reading authors who associate 'vulnerability' with the pinky. So far I am not aware of such authors, but if you can give me just 1 author... then this would confirm that your perception has spread in the field of hand reading.

(I hope you understand that I am trying to avoid that we focus too much on associations of individuals that so far have never been described in the books at all).

I hope you don't mind me for asking?

Patti Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:16 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Why quote a source? My experience is my resource.

Sure, I can explain my request:

I asked for a source because I wonder whether you know any hand reading authors who associate 'vulnerability' with the pinky. So far I am not aware of such authors, but if you can give me just 1 author... then this would confirm that your perception has spread in the field of hand reading.

(I hope you understand that I am trying to avoid that we focus too much on associations of individuals that so far have never been described in the books at all).

I hope you don't mind me for asking?

Perhaps Mark Seltman would join the discussion...?

http://blog.markseltman.com/2012/09/25/palmistry-and-values/

I used to say to my palmistry students, “It’s not what you see, but what you say and how you say it that matters”. It’s amazing how many kids ask, “Will I be rich and famous?” In response to a Thinking type, I may ask, “Will satisfaction and fulfillment in your relationships and career be enough for you?” I might say to a Feeling type, “You’ll look back one day and realize that your greatest riches resulted from being vulnerable and intimate with your family and friends.”

I get the feeling he has come to a similar realization of vulnerability and people's abilities in varying degrees to expose themselves. Although in this quote he is not referring to particular parts of hands.

**Martijn (admin)** Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:36 am

Patti wrote:
Perhaps Mark Seltman would join the discussion...?

http://blog.markseltman.com/2012/09/25/palmistry-and-values/

I used to say to my palmistry students, “It’s not what you see, but what you say and how you say it that matters”. It’s amazing how many kids ask, “Will I be rich and famous?” In response to a Thinking type, I may ask, “Will satisfaction and fulfillment in your relationships and career be enough for you?” I might say to a Feeling type, “You’ll look back one day and realize that your greatest riches resulted from being vulnerable and intimate with your family and friends.”

I get the feeling he has come to a similar realization of vulnerability and people's abilities in varying degrees to expose themselves. Although in this quote he is not referring to particular parts of hands.

Thanks Patti, on his blog Mark connects the word 'vulnerable' twice with the water hand type (he calls it 'feeling types').

Coincidently Mark wrote about the pinky finger in his latest blog-post; he e.g. talks about communication + wisdom + technical + language + family + sexual potentials, and for the short pinky he talks about 'trust' in the perspective of 'real intimacy' so that relates again to the sharing & the outer world (he does not talk about any other synonym for vulnerability/vulnerable at all):
http://blog.markseltman.com/2013/01/29/palmistry-and-the-pinky-finger/

Patti Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:42 am

While working with Liz Hallows on her research with the MBTI (Myers Briggs Type Indicator) personality profiler it became very clear that we express ourselves largely based on preferences.

We gravitate to what nourishes us and retreat from what causes discomfort. This moving toward what nourishes us, can empower us. We retreat to protect our vulnerabilities.

This vulnerability and empowerment relates to the degrees to which a person feels capable of 'putting themselves out there' as well as letting outsiders in. This involves the entire hand (wholly and compartmentalized) and the concept of polarities.

Patti Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:57 pm

This came across my Twitter feed:

http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/9648

Let's look at Quantum Palmistry
by Dr. Yoshifumi Harada
2013-02-05 09:32:19

We're on a similar wavelength or perhaps our discussion inspired this blog post.

study

**knox gillespie** Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:22 am

Has anyone written that the thumb is the source of the witness, THE I , that watches , what memories are running , counter will to an action that is about to be begun, the quiet watcher over ones whole mindscape. Who sees the joy inside and out, with no opposite. The knower of the field.

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:23 am

knox gillespie wrote:Has anyone written that the thumb is the source of the witness, THE I , that watches , what memories are running , counter will to an action that is about to be begun, the quiet watcher over ones whole mindscape. Who sees the joy inside and out, with no opposite. The knower of the field.

Yes Knox, I have mentioned the 'I' in the first post (see the list of synonyms). Anyway, thank you for your interesting description!

wave

**Lynn** Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:23 pm

Patti wrote:This came across my Twitter feed:

http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/9648

Let's look at Quantum Palmistry
by Dr. Yoshifumi Harada
2013-02-05 09:32:19

We're on a similar wavelength or perhaps our discussion inspired this blog post.

For some reason I'm not seeing any content on that page, only menus. Tried a google search but still nothing showing when I try the cached page.

**Lynn** Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:55 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
I think this clearly confirms that there is an inconsistency in the elemental approach.
or is the inconsistency in your understanding of the elemental approach? (or maybe I don't explain it clearly enough).

Dear Lynn,

I can now finally present you a clear example directly taken from Dukes' work that serves as an example where I think one can hardly deny that there are inconsistencies included in Dukes' writings about the fundamentals of the elemental system:

- On page 31 Dukes writes:
"Water = Energy / Communication"

- But on page 57 Dukes writes in table 3:
"Mercury => Air => Key Attribute: Communication and hermeneutics".

I think I can only read this as that in the first description communication is directly linked with 'water', and in the second description communication is directly linked with 'air'!

PS. Now, I realize that one can start reasoning via associations that 'communication' has many dimensions... but please be aware that Dukes is describing here some fundamentals, and regarding this example I think you'll probably not be able to deny that this apparent inconsistancy is not explained by Dukes at all. Correct?

I don't think anyone denies that there are inconsistencies in Terry Dukes work.

Sorry Martijn I'm having difficulty following some of the arguments that you presented me with on Friday.

because Dukes described that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect... and additionally he has also described in the chapter 'The fingers' (p. 80) how for the fingers the dorsal side relate to 'public' and the palmar side of the fingers relates to 'private' - so this could implicate that Dukes described how the dorsal side of the hand to 'outer world' and the inner side of the hand to 'inner world'!!)

Yes, correct that Dukes said that and I agree with it.

regarding

But Dukes starts with describing the 4 elements as follows (p.31):

Earth = Matter / Systematization
Fire = Time / Evaluation
Water = Energy / Communication
Air = Space / Consciousness

I have never used these. For example water=energy .... ALL the elements are forms of energy! Communication I would associate mainly with air element.

... the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. "

Lynn, I think you made this move after I pointed out that in traditional palmistry the pinky finger is usually associated with 'communication' & 'relationships'...

Even tho the way I wrote it makes it sound like it just occurred to me, actually I've always made that association of the fingers & thumb connecting the rest of the hand with the outisde world. "If you think of the energy of the hand being expressed out through the fingers, horizontal lines on phalanges obstruct or block the energy flow." is taken from my teaching notes from 13 years ago. On page 1 of this discussion I said "I believe the thumb has the effect of integrating the rest of the hand and that the thumb is the final expression of all this combined energy out into the world." - again this has been my understanding for probably at least 15 years. So, I didn't just 'make a move' after your words last week!

Patti Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:08 pm

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:This came across my Twitter feed:

http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/9648

Let's look at Quantum Palmistry
by Dr. Yoshifumi Harada
2013-02-05 09:32:19

We're on a similar wavelength or perhaps our discussion inspired this blog post.

For some reason I'm not seeing any content on that page, only menus. Tried a google search but still nothing showing when I try the cached page.

It seems to have gone missing. The link is still in Twitter when you search #palmistry in the search box, but the article seems to have gone missing. It spoke of the multi-directional and multi-dimensional energy of the hands. Leaned in the direction of how I see the hands, too and contained a lot of what has been posted here in the author's own words and perspective.

**Lynn** Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:40 pm

Patti wrote:
Lynn wrote:
For some reason I'm not seeing any content on that page, only menus. Tried a google search but still nothing showing when I try the cached page.

It seems to have gone missing. The link is still in Twitter when you search #palmistry in the search box, but the article seems to have gone missing. It spoke of the multi-directional and multi-dimensional energy of the hands. Leaned in the direction of how I see the hands, too and contained a lot of what has been posted here in the author's own words and perspective.

Thanks Patti, I couldn't find any of his articles that are listed in various links on google & on that website. But at least now I know it is not just my computer that isn't showing it. Thanks!

**Lynn** Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:32 pm

I've been away to Glastonbury for a couple of days and didn't have my palmistry head on! Hence when I first read recent posts and re-read some old ones, it made no sense to me at all! rolling on the floor

I'm sorry there are so many posts on this thread that I would like to respond to, and had not time, hence I have focussed on Martijn's where he is addressing me specifically.

Martijn (admin) wrote:For me it is especially interesting to see that in your comment you confirmed the part of Christopher's comment: "...water, which is an internal element", since you have now described this principle:

"earth & fire are more outer and air & water are more inner".

I didn't exactly put this forward as a 'principle'. The principles we use in 5-element hand analysis are the principles of the elements as we can observe them in nature, in the world all around us.

The full quote above was "What we see most about people is their physical body and their actions (earth & fire). Their thoughts and emotions (air and water) are more hidden. So in this sense, earth & fire are more outer and air & water are more inner."
That's a general statement that you can apply for example when you observe people walking down the street. You can see earth and fire aspects of them (body shape and movement), you can't see their water & air (thoughts and emotions).
(But if someone was lying hidden under a quilt, loudly reciting poetry they'd written, their water (feelings) and air (communication) would be more 'outer'. Wink

)

You quoted Dukes about

" the dorsal side relate to 'public' and the palmar side of the fingers relates to 'private' - so this could implicate that Dukes described how the dorsal side of the hand to 'outer world' and the inner side of the hand to 'inner world'!!)"

Yes. Again observe people in the street. You don't often see the palmar side of people's hands, you usually see the back of the hand. So the back of the hand is the more public (outer) face, the palmar side is the more private (inner) face.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
(For the moment I will describe below the implications of this principle... which are usefull to explain your earlier input regarding radial = outer and ulnar = inner; however, then I will also describe/proof how these principles actually appear to be a violation of various fundamental principles described by Dukes: because Dukes described that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect.

Are you talking here about this quote from Dukes? "When we observe hands we must be aware that each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."

If so, he is not exactly saying that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect (although I might be able to agree that it does!). He is saying that "each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."
eg major water line (heartline) also has the corresponding inner lines of upper minor water line (Girdle of venus), true minor water line (line of intuition), lower minor water line (via lasciva) - and incidentally for the main part these minor water lines are on the ulna side of the hand (which I class as more 'inner').

Lynn, when I apply your rather simple principle

I don't think these ideas are simple, I think they are very complex. I think other members of the C.Soc explain them much better than I do, I am limited by my short air line so I can't go into philosophical areas so easily.

OK from here on, you have lost me Martijn.
eg - middle finger = earth = more outer
But earth finger is half on radial side, half on ulna side, the balancing finger of the hand.
- index finger = water = more inner
No, because it is on radial side, in conjuction with the thumb it shows how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world.
You don't seem to be taking into account that the water finger has 3 phalanges - water, fire, air. It also has a fingerprint that could be ruled by any element.
So the 'points' system you have tried to apply to all this, just doesn't make any sense to me!
You are the creator of 'multi-dimensional hand reading' yet you don't seem to be applying that 'mutli dimensional' way of thinking to the elements!

I'm not going to discuss Dukes

Earth = Matter / Systematization
Fire = Time / Evaluation
Water = Energy / Communication
Air = Space / Consciousness

because as I've already said, there is much in Dukes' book that I don't follow, and this is one example, because..... all the elements are some form of energy! I associate air more than water with communication. Evaluation I would also associate more with air element.

sorry, after that you lost me.

to the radial side of the hand then we get a result that makes sense in the perspective of your (earlier?) view how the elemental system appears to describe that the radial side of the hand relates more to the outer world:

- lower radial palm = earth = more outer
- upper radial palm = fire = more outer
- index finger = water = more inner
- middle finger = earth = more outer

At first sight this appears to make sense (in the elemental perspective), because via this approach 3 out of 4 elements of the radial side get associated with the outer world - like you initially described.

And we can do the same for the ulnar side:

- lower ulnar palm = water = more inner
- upper ulnar palm = air = more inner
- pinky finger = air = more inner
- ring finger = fire = more outer

... At first sight the result also makes sense in the perspective that in the elemental system the ulnar side is associated with the inner world - according your (earlier?) view.

Interestingly, this 'inner' (ulnar) - 'outer' (radial) elemental division would suggests that 'air' should be recognized as the most 'inner' element... because both the air finger and the air palm quadrant are located at the 'inner' side of the hand!

However... now we should become aware why I had problems to understand/recognize these - what appear to be - rather simple principles, and...why you felt the need to arrive yesterday at your new exploring view:

"... the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. "

Lynn, I think you made this move after I pointed out that in traditional palmistry the pinky finger is usually associated with 'communication' & 'relationships'... which is e.g. illustrated by the fact the so-called marriage/relationships lines are found at the palmar zone just below the pinky finger (and I think one could even argue that the archetype of Mercurius is the most 'outward' AND 'active' of the classic Roman archetypes).

After I pointed out this you wrote: "I see what you are saying about the pinky finger... "

Lynn wrote:...
I see what you are saying about pinky. But I think maybe clutching at straws re moon reflecting light of outer world & our senses. You even gave proof that the senses are widespread thru the hand when you posted the cortical homunculus!

The more I think about all this (forgetting about conscious/subconscious) the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. I said this originally about the thumb, but I think the fingers can also be considered separately when looking at the divisions of the hand / PALM.

And before I point out to this fundamental problem (resulting from a comparison between the elemental system and the traditional approach) regarding the pinky finger, I had already point out that I spotted a likewise problem regard the thumb (I have quoted from Dukes, Fincham & Hirsch and described that the elemental principles used for especially the 2nd phalange of the thumb indicate that the elemental approach does not vary much from the classic principle where this phalange is associated with 'thinking'... which is an 'inner' function (of course).

Lynn, I fully understand that the elemental principles of the 'graduated materiality', which leads to the approach to apply the element to different levels of the hand (and different levels of life).

Now, regarding what you have described so far... it appears that regarding 'inner' and 'outer', before this discussion began you had been using 2 principles regarding 'inner' and 'outer':

- Principle 1:
Radial = outer world, ulnar = inner world

- Principle 2:
Earth + fire = more outer, air + water = more inner

The side-effect is:
- the index finger gets associated with outer world + more inner... which appears to be a contradiction;
- and the ring finger get associated with inner world + more outer.... which also appears to be a contradiction.

Now, I understand how you try to rationalize this by pointing out to the philosophy of the elemental system.

But Dukes starts with describing the 4 elements as follows (p.31):

Earth = Matter / Systematization
Fire = Time / Evaluation
Water = Energy / Communication
Air = Space / Consciousness

I think it's hard to relate these principles to 'inner' and 'outer', though by principle one should argue that:

- 'Matter' should probably be connected with the outer world (one could say that the earth finger and the palmar earth quadrant follow principle 1)
- 'Communication' should be connected with the outer world (one could say that the water finger does follow principle 1, but the palmar water quadrant does not follow principle 1);
- And 'consciousness' should be connected with the inner world (one could say that both the air finger and the palmar air quadrant follow principle 1).

I think it is hard to associate the other terms with inner & outer; but I think I have now described how the connection between water and 'communication' (as described by Dukes)... via the water ulnar quadrant of the palm explains why it is problematic to associate the ulnar side of the hand with the inner world.

So, I would like to point out here that Dukes' approach to the elements does not include any clear division regarding the inner- and outer side of the hand, because Dukes writes in the chapter 'The principle of graduated materiality' (page 27):

"When we observe hands we must be aware that each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."

So, by principle... the elemental system is NOT compatible with any strict division regarding any inner- and/or outer side of the hand - simply because by principle all 4 elements are found on each side of the hand, in the fingers and in the palm!

The only principle used by Dukes for the radial-ulnar division is the division of 'active' versus 'passive' (but it appears that this should definitely not be associated with any division of inner versus outer).

This confirms what was already clear for me: WATER is associated with 'communication', and since 'communication' by principle goes via the outer world it does not appear to make much sense to see the consequence that in the radial-ulnar approach communication then also would get associated the with the inner world via the water quadrant of the palm... which could then be described as a fundamental inconsistency regarding what the principle of communication really implicates - wikipedia describes communication as "the activity of conveying information through the exchange of thoughts, messages, or information, as by speech, visuals, signals, writing, or behavior." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication)

Maybe this could explain why you felt yesterday the urge to write:

"Well, maybe the whole hand is our inner world! "

Lynn, how does this sound to you?

I don't understand half of it, you lost me at some point.

I think I have now solved your major problem regarding the 'inner-outer' aspect presented in my picture... because I could argue now that since in elemental chirology each part of the hand is assumed to posses an inner- and an outer aspect, and therefore we can no longer speak of a clear fundamental contradiction between my picture and the elemental system!!!

OK Martijn, feel free not to include inner/outer in the labelling of your diagram with regard to your conclusions about 5-element hand analysis.
(edit)As you discount the 5-element system so much & have so many criticisms of it, I don't really understand why you are asking my opinion or trying to correlate your ideas with 5-element system? eg in this thumb discussion and in the hand shape discussion- where you even based your final diagram on elemental handshape, despite your many criticisms of the 5-element system? (/edit)

How does your diagram compare with traditional palmistry & inner/outer or active/passive sides of the hand? I mentioned earlier in this discussion that some authors talk about this disctinction (eg David Brandon-Jones, Sasha Fenton & Patti mentioned Julius Spier, there are probably more that we haven't mentioned) and why is radial Mars known as active mars whereas ulna Mars is passive Mars?

(I think my writing above illustrates that I have at least made some progress during this discussion regarding how to understand & apply the fundamental princples of the elemental system... but I do think that the philosophy of the elemental system - which describes how the elements work out on various levels - should not be used as a general, unspecific rationalization when the principles appear to contradict)

Sorry but I think you are still confused by many fundamental aspects & principles of the elemental system. But I give you credit for even beginning to try to understand Terry Dukes book! It is difficult to understand even when English is your first language (I needed a dictionary next to me when I first read it). Tho I would not recommend this book, too much nonsense in between the important sensible points.

**Martijn (admin)** Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:48 pm

Lynn wrote:...

because Dukes described that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect... and additionally he has also described in the chapter 'The fingers' (p. 80) how for the fingers the dorsal side relate to 'public' and the palmar side of the fingers relates to 'private' - so this could implicate that Dukes described how the dorsal side of the hand to 'outer world' and the inner side of the hand to 'inner world'!!)
Yes, correct that Dukes said that and I agree with it.

...

Lynn, if we combine both elements presented by Dukes in the quote above... then one could say that Dukes sort of has described how every aspect of the hand has an 'inner' (represented by the palmar side) and an 'outer' (represented by the dorsal side).

But if you accept this as the starting point of the elemental system... then I think it becomes troublesome when one also adopts any view regarding radial- and ulnar side, simply because by principle this creates a contradiction regarding that starting point!

Are you able to visualize what I am saying here?

(Let me explain... if you would put a thin layer of yellow paint on the palmar side of the hand + a thin layer of blue paint on the dorsal side of the hand... and then do the same for in respective the radial side [palmar radial side + dorsal radial side] and the ulnar side of the hand [palmar ulnar side + dorsal ulnar side]... then some parts of the hand would become GREEN - which represent the zones where the contradiction becomes manifest! Does this make sense?)

Then Lynn, I also would like to point out the following:

I understand your theory regarding the thumb as an 'integrator' as a starting point.

However, with this starting point I think one can still apply the inner vs outer them on the other four fingers. Then, if you associate communication with air... it would make sense to associate the pinky + the palmar air quadrant with the outer world - because these represent the air zones of the hand and communication is by principle a matter that directly relates to the outer world!!!

And in this perspective, it would not make sense to associate the ulnar side of the hand with the inner world... because in the perspective of your starting point regarding thumb, you would have to specify that to that all four fingers + the palm sort of represent the inner world... so then you would not be speaking of the ulnar side, you are then speaking about the full hand except for the thumb!

Are you able to visualize what I am saying here?

NOTICE: Patti & I have searched for key-worlds in the hand analysis literature that associate the pinky with the inner world (because the classic key-words associated with the pinky finger - e.g. communication, relationships, intimacy - all appear to relate to the outer world).

But so far it appears that Patti & I could not identify any CLASSIC 'inner world' key-words that have been associated in the hand reading literature with the pinky finger. Maybe you are able to name one 'inner world' key-word that relates to the pinky? Or the archetype of mercurius?

Patti Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:12 am

Martijn, don't include me! There is plenty of 'published' material available with keywords associating the little finger with the 'inner self' (or equivalent terminology) such as this from Charlotte Wolff:

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 6 Charlo10

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 6 Charlo10

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:50 am

Lynn wrote:I've been away to Glastonbury for a couple of days and didn't have my palmistry head on! Hence when I first read recent posts and re-read some old ones, it made no sense to me at all! I'm sorry there are so many posts on this thread that I would like to respond to, and had not time, hence I have focussed on Martijn's where he is addressing me specifically.

Martijn (admin) wrote:For me it is especially interesting to see that in your comment you confirmed the part of Christopher's comment: "...water, which is an internal element", since you have now described this principle:

"earth & fire are more outer and air & water are more inner".

I didn't exactly put this forward as a 'principle'. The principles we use in 5-element hand analysis are the principles of the elements as we can observe them in nature, in the world all around us.

The full quote above was "What we see most about people is their physical body and their actions (earth & fire). Their thoughts and emotions (air and water) are more hidden. So in this sense, earth & fire are more outer and air & water are more inner."
That's a general statement that you can apply for example when you observe people walking down the street. You can see earth and fire aspects of them (body shape and movement), you can't see their water & air (thoughts and emotions).
(But if someone was lying hidden under a quilt, loudly reciting poetry they'd written, their water (feelings) and air (communication) would be more 'outer'. )

You quoted Dukes about
" the dorsal side relate to 'public' and the palmar side of the fingers relates to 'private' - so this could implicate that Dukes described how the dorsal side of the hand to 'outer world' and the inner side of the hand to 'inner world'!!)"
Yes. Again observe people in the street. You don't often see the palmar side of people's hands, you usually see the back of the hand. So the back of the hand is the more public (outer) face, the palmar side is the more private (inner) face.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
(For the moment I will describe below the implications of this principle... which are usefull to explain your earlier input regarding radial = outer and ulnar = inner; however, then I will also describe/proof how these principles actually appear to be a violation of various fundamental principles described by Dukes: because Dukes described that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect.
Are you talking here about this quote from Dukes? "When we observe hands we must be aware that each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."

If so, he is not exactly saying that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect (although I might be able to agree that it does!). He is saying that "each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."
eg major water line (heartline) also has the corresponding inner lines of upper minor water line (Girdle of venus), true minor water line (line of intuition), lower minor water line (via lasciva) - and incidentally for the main part these minor water lines are on the ulna side of the hand (which I class as more 'inner').

Lynn, when I apply your rather simple principle

I don't think these ideas are simple, I think they are very complex. I think other members of the C.Soc explain them much better than I do, I am limited by my short air line so I can't go into philosophical areas so easily.

OK from here on, you have lost me Martijn.
eg - middle finger = earth = more outer
But earth finger is half on radial side, half on ulna side, the balancing finger of the hand.
- index finger = water = more inner
No, because it is on radial side, in conjuction with the thumb it shows how we assert our inner desires & self / ego out to the world.
You don't seem to be taking into account that the water finger has 3 phalanges - water, fire, air. It also has a fingerprint that could be ruled by any element.
So the 'points' system you have tried to apply to all this, just doesn't make any sense to me!
You are the creator of 'multi-dimensional hand reading' yet you don't seem to be applying that 'mutli dimensional' way of thinking to the elements!

I'm not going to discuss Dukes
Earth = Matter / Systematization
Fire = Time / Evaluation
Water = Energy / Communication
Air = Space / Consciousness
because as I've already said, there is much in Dukes' book that I don't follow, and this is one example, because..... all the elements are some form of energy! I associate air more than water with communication. Evaluation I would also associate more with air element.

sorry, after that you lost me.

to the radial side of the hand then we get a result that makes sense in the perspective of your (earlier?) view how the elemental system appears to describe that the radial side of the hand relates more to the outer world:

- lower radial palm = earth = more outer
- upper radial palm = fire = more outer
- index finger = water = more inner
- middle finger = earth = more outer

At first sight this appears to make sense (in the elemental perspective), because via this approach 3 out of 4 elements of the radial side get associated with the outer world - like you initially described.

And we can do the same for the ulnar side:

- lower ulnar palm = water = more inner
- upper ulnar palm = air = more inner
- pinky finger = air = more inner
- ring finger = fire = more outer

... At first sight the result also makes sense in the perspective that in the elemental system the ulnar side is associated with the inner world - according your (earlier?) view.

Interestingly, this 'inner' (ulnar) - 'outer' (radial) elemental division would suggests that 'air' should be recognized as the most 'inner' element... because both the air finger and the air palm quadrant are located at the 'inner' side of the hand!

However... now we should become aware why I had problems to understand/recognize these - what appear to be - rather simple principles, and...why you felt the need to arrive yesterday at your new exploring view:

"... the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. "

Lynn, I think you made this move after I pointed out that in traditional palmistry the pinky finger is usually associated with 'communication' & 'relationships'... which is e.g. illustrated by the fact the so-called marriage/relationships lines are found at the palmar zone just below the pinky finger (and I think one could even argue that the archetype of Mercurius is the most 'outward' AND 'active' of the classic Roman archetypes).

After I pointed out this you wrote: "I see what you are saying about the pinky finger... "

Lynn wrote:...
I see what you are saying about pinky. But I think maybe clutching at straws re moon reflecting light of outer world & our senses. You even gave proof that the senses are widespread thru the hand when you posted the cortical homunculus!

The more I think about all this (forgetting about conscious/subconscious) the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. I said this originally about the thumb, but I think the fingers can also be considered separately when looking at the divisions of the hand / PALM.

And before I point out to this fundamental problem (resulting from a comparison between the elemental system and the traditional approach) regarding the pinky finger, I had already point out that I spotted a likewise problem regard the thumb (I have quoted from Dukes, Fincham & Hirsch and described that the elemental principles used for especially the 2nd phalange of the thumb indicate that the elemental approach does not vary much from the classic principle where this phalange is associated with 'thinking'... which is an 'inner' function (of course).

Lynn, I fully understand that the elemental principles of the 'graduated materiality', which leads to the approach to apply the element to different levels of the hand (and different levels of life).

Now, regarding what you have described so far... it appears that regarding 'inner' and 'outer', before this discussion began you had been using 2 principles regarding 'inner' and 'outer':

- Principle 1:
Radial = outer world, ulnar = inner world

- Principle 2:
Earth + fire = more outer, air + water = more inner

The side-effect is:
- the index finger gets associated with outer world + more inner... which appears to be a contradiction;
- and the ring finger get associated with inner world + more outer.... which also appears to be a contradiction.

Now, I understand how you try to rationalize this by pointing out to the philosophy of the elemental system.

But Dukes starts with describing the 4 elements as follows (p.31):

Earth = Matter / Systematization
Fire = Time / Evaluation
Water = Energy / Communication
Air = Space / Consciousness

I think it's hard to relate these principles to 'inner' and 'outer', though by principle one should argue that:

- 'Matter' should probably be connected with the outer world (one could say that the earth finger and the palmar earth quadrant follow principle 1)
- 'Communication' should be connected with the outer world (one could say that the water finger does follow principle 1, but the palmar water quadrant does not follow principle 1);
- And 'consciousness' should be connected with the inner world (one could say that both the air finger and the palmar air quadrant follow principle 1).

I think it is hard to associate the other terms with inner & outer; but I think I have now described how the connection between water and 'communication' (as described by Dukes)... via the water ulnar quadrant of the palm explains why it is problematic to associate the ulnar side of the hand with the inner world.

So, I would like to point out here that Dukes' approach to the elements does not include any clear division regarding the inner- and outer side of the hand, because Dukes writes in the chapter 'The principle of graduated materiality' (page 27):

"When we observe hands we must be aware that each function we can see represented in them possesses an inner and an outer aspects. Each line representing an outer manifestation of consciousness and also has a line reflecting an inner manifestation."

So, by principle... the elemental system is NOT compatible with any strict division regarding any inner- and/or outer side of the hand - simply because by principle all 4 elements are found on each side of the hand, in the fingers and in the palm!

The only principle used by Dukes for the radial-ulnar division is the division of 'active' versus 'passive' (but it appears that this should definitely not be associated with any division of inner versus outer).

This confirms what was already clear for me: WATER is associated with 'communication', and since 'communication' by principle goes via the outer world it does not appear to make much sense to see the consequence that in the radial-ulnar approach communication then also would get associated the with the inner world via the water quadrant of the palm... which could then be described as a fundamental inconsistency regarding what the principle of communication really implicates - wikipedia describes communication as "the activity of conveying information through the exchange of thoughts, messages, or information, as by speech, visuals, signals, writing, or behavior." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication)

Maybe this could explain why you felt yesterday the urge to write:

"Well, maybe the whole hand is our inner world! "

Lynn, how does this sound to you?

I don't understand half of it, you lost me at some point.

I think I have now solved your major problem regarding the 'inner-outer' aspect presented in my picture... because I could argue now that since in elemental chirology each part of the hand is assumed to posses an inner- and an outer aspect, and therefore we can no longer speak of a clear fundamental contradiction between my picture and the elemental system!!!

OK Martijn, feel free not to include inner/outer in the labelling of your diagram with regard to your conclusions about 5-element hand analysis.
(edit)As you discount the 5-element system so much & have so many criticisms of it, I don't really understand why you are asking my opinion or trying to correlate your ideas with 5-element system? eg in this thumb discussion and in the hand shape discussion- where you even based your final diagram on elemental handshape, despite your many criticisms of the 5-element system? (/edit)

How does your diagram compare with traditional palmistry & inner/outer or active/passive sides of the hand? I mentioned earlier in this discussion that some authors talk about this disctinction (eg David Brandon-Jones, Sasha Fenton & Patti mentioned Julius Spier, there are probably more that we haven't mentioned) and why is radial Mars known as active mars whereas ulna Mars is passive Mars?

(I think my writing above illustrates that I have at least made some progress during this discussion regarding how to understand & apply the fundamental princples of the elemental system... but I do think that the philosophy of the elemental system - which describes how the elements work out on various levels - should not be used as a general, unspecific rationalization when the principles appear to contradict)
Sorry but I think you are still confused by many fundamental aspects & principles of the elemental system. But I give you credit for even beginning to try to understand Terry Dukes book! It is difficult to understand even when English is your first language (I needed a dictionary next to me when I first read it). Tho I would not recommend this book, too much nonsense in between the important sensible points.

Lynn, thanks for making this suggestion not to include any inner/outer in my diagram regarding the elemental system.

Yes, basically I could argue here that both the elements water (Dukes) & air (you & Hirsch) are associated in the elemental system with 'communication'... and because 'communication' represents a core-issue that relates to the outer world, I think it would not make much sense if any elemental-student would associate the ulnar side directly with the inner world.

This observation of mine is sort of confirmed by Fincham's descriptions that 'communication' is an issue that relates to the pinky finger (he has named the pinky the 'Antenna of Communication')... and thus this finger should for this reason in the elemental system not be associated with the inner world.

And Dukes approach towards the dorsal/palmar side also provides illustrative support for my observation.

NOTICE: By the way, I could also point out here that Fred Gettings (who preceeded the work of Dukes) has presented an alternative elemental system... where the pinky finger e.g. gets associated with the element earth and the thumb with the element fire!???

It appears that the each of the elemental-authors have sort of presented a (slightly) different set of fundamentals, but it is not easy at all to see how much the works really differ from each other.

So far it appears that Hirsch's work is probably most representative for Christopher Jones' work (because Fincham's work also many includes other influences that go beyond the elmental approach... which could explain why he has developed his own vocabulary, e.g. he talks of 'palmistry'... and not 'chirology', etc.).

PS. Lynn, regarding your reference to the other authors... Sasha Fenton actually supports the view that the mount of moon relates to the senses; by the way, I already had made a reference to her work in this post (where I e.g. also described that Cheiro also has made this association between the mount of moon and the sense, and Cheiro also associated the thumb to be representing the 'intellectual factulties'... which also appears to refer to the inner world):
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t2419p45-the-thumb-represents-the-inner-essence-of-man#25553

By the way, regarding your question about 'active/passive'... to me those are rather abstract words, and since I am aware that authors have used contradictive models for that dimensions as well (e.g. Gettings associates the fingers with 'active' and the palm with 'passive') I have little interest to start a discussion about that dimension - especially since I think that the majority of the hand reading authors have not started using those words in their writings.

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:58 am

Patti wrote:Martijn, don't include me! There is plenty of 'published' material available with keywords associating the little finger with the 'inner self' (or equivalent terminology) such as this from Charlotte Wolff:

Thanks Patti, but can you please specify what you have in mind... which key-word for the pinky has Wolff presented that we can connect with the inner world?

(I think Wolff's most descriptions here are made in the perspective of sexuality... which relates to the outer world)

Patti Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:04 am

subconscious and passive

Patti Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:06 am

made in the perspective of sexuality... which relates to the outer world

Not in my world? Which one are you on?

**Lynn** Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:06 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:...

because Dukes described that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect... and additionally he has also described in the chapter 'The fingers' (p. 80) how for the fingers the dorsal side relate to 'public' and the palmar side of the fingers relates to 'private' - so this could implicate that Dukes described how the dorsal side of the hand to 'outer world' and the inner side of the hand to 'inner world'!!)
Yes, correct that Dukes said that and I agree with it.

...

Lynn, if we combine both elements presented by Dukes in the quote above... then one could say that Dukes sort of has described how every aspect of the hand has an 'inner' (represented by the palmar side) and an 'outer' (represented by the dorsal side).

But if you accept this as the starting point of the elemental system... then I think it becomes troublesome when one also adopts any view regarding radial- and ulnar side, simply because by principle this creates a contradiction regarding that starting point!

OK, just stop for a moment. Who said that this is a "starting point" ?
Yes it is the first thing we might notice about people's hands when we're walking down the street, but it is not a starting point for the 5-element system!

Martijn (admin) wrote:Are you able to visualize what I am saying here?

(Let me explain... if you would put a thin layer of yellow paint on the palmar side of the hand + a thin layer of blue paint on the dorsal side of the hand... and then do the same for in respective the radial side [palmar radial side + dorsal radial side] and the ulnar side of the hand [palmar ulnar side + dorsal ulnar side]... then some parts of the hand would become GREEN - which represent the zones where the contradiction becomes manifest! Does this make sense?)

OK please stop again for a moment.
Earth = yellow, fire = red, water = blue, air = white.
If you colour each part of the hand accordingly, then the hand is probably mostly coloured brown, with maybe some green, purple, pale blue, pink, orange, turquoise,....etc.... It is all a reflection of all elements viewed in different ways. It is not a contradiction, it is the combination of the elements.

Martijn (admin) wrote:Then Lynn, I also would like to point out the following:

I understand your theory regarding the thumb as an 'integrator' as a starting point.

However, with this starting point I think one can still apply the inner vs outer them on the other four fingers. Then, if you associate communication with air... it would make sense to associate the pinky + the palmar air quadrant with the outer world - because these represent the air zones of the hand and communication is by principle a matter that directly relates to the outer world!!!

but what are we communicating in this area? it includes eg. relationships, sex, intimacy, the start of the heartline - our innermost and childhood emotional experiences, the passion line, the relationship lines - do most people make this kind of thing public knowledge? do we wear it on our sleeves and show it to the outer world? Or is it a more private (inner) thing for most people? (edit) also the healing lines/medical stigmata, the lines under apollo mount relating to our passions for artistic & self expression - is this 'inner' or 'outer'?(/edit)

Martijn (admin) wrote:And in this perspective, it would not make sense to associate the ulnar side of the hand with the inner world... because in the perspective of your starting point regarding thumb, you would have to specify that to that all four fingers + the palm sort of represent the inner world... so then you would not be speaking of the ulnar side, you are then speaking about the full hand except for the thumb!

Are you able to visualize what I am saying here?

hmmm, sorry I'm a bit confused what you are saying here. But I think you are basing it on some assumptions that I do not share.

Martijn (admin) wrote:NOTICE: Patti & I have searched for key-worlds in the hand analysis literature that associate the pinky with the inner world (because the classic key-words associated with the pinky finger - e.g. communication, relationships, intimacy - all appear to relate to the outer world).

But so far it appears that Patti & I could not identify any CLASSIC 'inner world' key-words that have been associated in the hand reading literature with the pinky finger. Maybe you are able to name one 'inner world' key-word that relates to the pinky? Or the archetype of mercurius?[/color]

Sorry, having been away I am not fully up to date with this discussion, but I notice Patti says "Don't include me" in her reply. I think I have mentioned in my last paragraph why the pinky might relate more to our inner (private) than outer (public) world.

Patti Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:16 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Thanks Patti, but can you please specify what you have in mind... which key-word for the pinky has Wolff presented that we can connect with the inner world?

(I think Wolff's most descriptions here are made in the perspective of sexuality... which relates to the outer world)

I just recalled my visit to Amsterdam and the tour bus trip through the red light district many years ago....so maybe it's a cultural viewpoint....this sexuality is an outer world thing?

**Lynn** Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:28 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Thanks Patti, but can you please specify what you have in mind... which key-word for the pinky has Wolff presented that we can connect with the inner world?

(I think Wolff's most descriptions here are made in the perspective of sexuality... which relates to the outer world)

I just recalled my visit to Amsterdam and the tour bus trip through the red light district many years ago....so maybe it's a cultural viewpoint....this sexuality is an outer world thing?

Patti we were posting at the same time. Your comment kinda backs up what I said about

do most people make this kind of thing public knowledge? do we wear it on our sleeves and show it to the outer world? Or is it a more private (inner) thing for most people?

If I were to be so bold as to say "OK then Martijn, if it's an outer world thing, tell us about your sex life", I would completely understand if you replied "oh no, that's private". Laughing

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:30 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Thanks Patti, but can you please specify what you have in mind... which key-word for the pinky has Wolff presented that we can connect with the inner world?

(I think Wolff's most descriptions here are made in the perspective of sexuality... which relates to the outer world)

I just recalled my visit to Amsterdam and the tour bus trip through the red light district many years ago....so maybe it's a cultural viewpoint....this sexuality is an outer world thing?

... Wikipedia starts describing 'human sexuality' as:

"Human sexuality is the capacity to have erotic experiences and responses. Human sexuality can also refer to the way someone is sexually attracted to another person... "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sexuality

Patti, your association with Amsterdam is a perfect illustration of that people tend to 'go out' to get it... or give it away, etc.

(Religeous books usually tell people first to get married... before getting involved, etc.)

Patti Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:33 am

I received Holtzman's new book a few days ago and just today had some time to look at it from the beginning. Interestingly I see he has used a circular form showing shading from dark to light for the varying degrees of physicality over mentality, or the reverse. I haven't read the details but glancing at the illustrations, that concept is exactly what I've been describing in regards to the multi-dimensional, multi-directional spectrum. And illustrates that you should not attempt to draw a line, (lines/boxes) somewhere across the hand, that works across the board for every hand type. happy move

and

for Holtzman!

Patti Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:36 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Thanks Patti, but can you please specify what you have in mind... which key-word for the pinky has Wolff presented that we can connect with the inner world?

(I think Wolff's most descriptions here are made in the perspective of sexuality... which relates to the outer world)

I just recalled my visit to Amsterdam and the tour bus trip through the red light district many years ago....so maybe it's a cultural viewpoint....this sexuality is an outer world thing?

... Wikipedia starts describing 'human sexuality' as:

"Human sexuality is the capacity to have erotic experiences and responses. Human sexuality can also refer to the way someone is sexually attracted to another person... "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sexuality

Patti, your association with Amsterdam is a perfect illustration of that people tend to 'go out' to get it... or give it away, etc.

(Religeous books usually tell people first to get married... before getting involved, etc.)

Yes, I understand what you are saying. The opposite side of the same spectrum is the level of intimacy that leads to the feeling of oneness. (i.e. there is no 'other') This is the other side of the same coin.

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:43 am

Lynn wrote:
If I were to be so bold as to say "OK then Martijn, if it's an outer world thing, tell us about your sex life", I would completely understand if you replied "oh no, that's private".

... That's only an illustration for how people communicate about sexuality!

(Of course, while human population evolved in time... one could argue that fantasy became more and more an element of sexuality; and though the urge comes from inside, without the interaction (with or via the body) there is probably no 'true' sexuality at all)

Sponsored content