Re: I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:42 am

Parender wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Parender wrote:Your Inner Essence is the fabrication of your being, very personal, your soul psychology, your life purpose and is a continue process. It is more than that; like an internal force that guides, inspires, motivates you. A spiritual person can understand this well because it is infinite silence, peace and stillness at the core point of your being, to be in harmony with Almighty. Sometime it is beyond language and is expressed by many emotions.

It is a ‘feeling’ that’s totally unique and personal to every individual. It is an awakening of the Truth for you. Inner essence is a combination of many things. A thumb can denote your willpower, decision-making power, persistence or energy level, yours being successful or failure but I think it (sole thumb) cannot reveal your inner essence, for this you would have to study all the fingers and fingertips. Yes, thumb individualizes a person and is very important but without fingers what it is? Like studying or analyzing hand as a whole is more important than studying in sections so to know and understand inner essence we would have to study fingers too. After all this is your Life Purpose.

Parender Sethi

Hi Parender,

Thanks for sharing you perceptions regarding the inner essence. Unfortunately, I think your description does not present anything specific regarding how to 'read' the inner essence from the hand.

In general, when there is not specific relation between any proportion of the hand and the inner essence... then by principle one could start wondering about whether there is any relationship between the hand and the inner essence at all!???

But I can add that I am also glad to see that the only specific comment in your post in this perspective relates to the thumb... which I can perceive as at least some confirmation of what I have described so far regarding the thumb.

So, I welcome you to specify anything in this perspective if you can!

My saying is based on the thesis that your inner essence is your soul psychology, your life purpose. If it is so then your inner essence should naturally be the identification of what specifically you feel you should do or inclined to do in order to live life to the fullest. The inner essence attracts you to do the things naturally in life which give you the greatest gratification and meaning when you do them. Your inner essence is true you, your life purpose. And it cannot be derived from only one part of the palm of the hand as everything affects everything.

Your inner essence is what is going to guide you through every act in life, so it is critical that you define it accurately, for this you would have to consider the whole hand including all the three keys i.e.hand formation, lines and fingerprints. Without studying these keys you cannot reveal the true life purpose or ‘inner essence’. Ego is not inner essence. There are many other aspects of your behavior patterns are involved in it besides the ego. Whatever might be the definition of ego, I have to say life is much more than only ego.

Because no sign or marker is absolute on the hand; so whosoever be whether Spier or Fincham or anyone else who defines inner essence from a particular part of a hand cannot be absolute correct and is very difficult to believe. Personally, I do not agree to these methods. And there are great contradictions on their aspects too. Your inner essence is in fact true you yourself who when live effortlessly the life. This is naturally more than a thumb. Your inner essence confirms your own sense of who you are. You are not your thumb only. I don’t believe this. Yes thumb individualizes a person but is not your inner essence. A person who does not have thumb at all (there are persons of course) then how you will know his/her inner essence? How you would know inner essence of a mad person or mentally retarded person?

The self-controlled person knows when to oppose and when not to, when to exert his/her will on others and when to let them go by applying his natural instincts or fortitude. This support to thumb comes from elsewhere on the palms i.e Head Line and other lines. Lines, fingerprints and hand formation were made for each other. The whole is always important then a section.

Parendere Sethi

Hi Parender,

Thank you for your response to my earlier invitation to specify. Your feedback indicates to me that to you the words 'inner essence' in the title of this topic were appealing... however you associate it with much more then the thumb.

I think this is just fine, because the 'inner essense of man' is a philosophic/psychological/spiritual construct where the meaning actually varies with the perspective that one chooses to describe or think about.

Many famous philosphers & psychologists have talked about the 'inner essence', to mention a few: the philosphers Plato, Paracelsus, Thomas van Aquinas & Arthur Schopenauer, but the psychologists Maslow & Rogers also talked about it. But sometimes the words 'inner essence' are simply being used to refer to the core of the character.

Regarding my own use of those words, in general one can say that in many religions and philosophical systems, the word "soul" is used to represent 'the inner essence' of a (human) being - refering its self-awareness and metaphysical identity.

So, I kind of used the words 'inner essence' as a synonym for the word 'soul' - being aware that the use of the word 'soul' would probably immediately has raised the question.. what is a 'soul' anyway?

However, I had no intend to start a philosophical discussion regarding the words I have used in the title of this topic, and my own interest was more directed at the word 'inner' than the words 'essense' ... knowing that this would underline the essential contradiction (regarding the meaning of the thumb) that we can find among various systems of hand reading.

Interesting to see that this 'controversial' topic has already entered the top 5 of the longest topics ever seen at this forum!: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/statistics

Anyway, I am perfectly happy that you repeated that for you the thumb 'individualizes a person' - which I perceive as a confirming description for the descriptions in the field of hand reading which associate the thumb with the 'inner essence' - again, the words themselves are not that important.

Thumb up

Patti Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:59 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:...
I haven't a clue what is in your head with your innuendo I put in bold and really don't care to find out.

I was referring to our discussion about the 'angles' between the radiants of a triadius.

Not sure where your assocation regarding a thenar (partly) on the ulnar side of the hand came from, because Dukes only talks about the quandrant in terms of a vertical line between the triradius below the middle finger and a 'point at the center of the wrist end of the palm'.

You've made a mistake Martijn, Dukes doesn't measure from the triradius below the middle finger. He measures from the tip of the finger.

Martijn,
Now it's coming back to me.... you mean where you accuse me of making the mistakes?

Yes Patti, I owe you an apology as well... I was the one who was wrong about Dukes' method.

(I had missed the dot, misunderstood the word apex, and I had assumed that Dukes and Fincham use the same method... but I was wrong about that as well!)

I hope you understand.

Patti Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:02 am

A little off topic, but your hand samples show how the appearance of a low set little finger is not really the case when the fingers and palm is naturally aligned.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:05 am

Lynn wrote:Thank you for your apologies.

(edit - by the way the word apex means the top of something, the tip, the summit, the highest point. eg of a hill, mountain, roof, hand mount, or even of a career).

Just a couple of comment about your pictures.
1. When the fingers habitually lean to the radial side, the thumb is not as outstretched as in your picture. The thumb angle is usually narrower, which scrunches up that quadrant even more. (see page 42 Spellbinding Power, illustration 41).
2. You would use the top rascette as the lower boundary of the lower quadrants, rather than the straight line you have drawn, but that is just a minor observation.

Martijn (admin) wrote:Johnny Fincham's pictures clearly indicate that he has adopted a different method then the one described by Dukes - because in Johnny's pictures the vertical quadrantial axis is not anyhow associated with the tip of the middle finger and Johnny talks about the palm only.
So, can we agree that Johnny has adopted a different menthod compared to Dukes' guidelines?
Johnny has told us that he no longer does quadrant analysis. So, therefore he doesn't present any method for quadrant analysis, such as Dukes was presenting!
Yes Johnny has presented a different method for dividing the palm into 4 areas, taking the horizontal line from centre of negative Mars to positive Mars, which means the horzintal line in his diagram is not at 90 degrees to the vertical.

(more replies in a minute)

Lynn!

Okay, your first 2 points perfectly make sense.

And I am glad to see you acknowledge that Johnny is using is a different method compared to Dukes + thank you for pointing out that he does not use the '90 degrees' principles, etc.

I am still happy with his word-choice regarding the 4 quadrants... but after his answer to your question(s) - which sort of implicates that he hardly does put any value on the quadrants one can conclude that his 'innovative' description of the quadrants is probably not much more than a theoretical approach based on the keywords uses with those areas in all sorts of hand reading books (because I recognize how the words 'ego' and 'collective subconscious' do no relate to the elemental approach).

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:31 am

Patti wrote:A little off topic, but your hand samples show how the appearance of a low set little finger is not really the case when the fingers and palm is naturally aligned.

Yes Patti, leaning fingers induces (misleading) 'visual effects'... because if you would measure (with a tool) in both pictures the distance between the central point on the wrist-crease and the central point of the onset of the pinky finger - you will find that the distance is actually exactly the same!

PS. I think this specific issue actually deserves to become a new topic on it's own... but I would like to make a quick report here:

Recently, I have done some measurements on the palm based on the central wrist crease + the 4 onsets of the fingers. The results were quite astonishing: e.g. the variation was much smaller than I expected regarding the male-female difference... and the male for example had a (relatively) slightly 'shorter' ulnar palm length and a slightly 'longer' radial palm length - compared to the women. I think this is a surprizing results because we know from scientific studies that in the fingers the effect is actually reversed and much larger - which was also confirmed in my small study!

And another stricking observation concerned that the distance to the ring finger was in only one out of 48 hands always (much) smaller than the distance to the index finger. And in the males the distance to ring finger was clearly relatively SHORTER than in the females - which concerns also a pattern that is the reversed-effect of the typical 2d:4d digit ratio difference between men and women!

(By the way, I did these measurement in the perspective of my Extraversion study)

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:06 am

... Regarding the last chart that I have created (see below), I will now try to make a more simple chart with the key-words only listed for the the hypothenar, thenar, the 2 phalanges of the thumb, and the 5 fingers.

This will result in a picture featured with 9 sets of key-words, and for all 14 authors (included in the more detailed chart below) I will also report in the picture whether each of them have used any of the three keywords (or synonyms) in each set for the associated part of the hand!

I don't expect to meet much trouble in this summarizing final step, and when that chart becomes available we also have a chart which provides somes insight in how large the differences between the 14 featured authors really are regarding the individual elements!

I will probably list the 14 authors in four groups:
- late 19th/early 20th century (2 authors: Benham & Cheiro)
- psychoanalytic oriented (3 authors: Spier, Haft-Pomrock & Holtzman);
- vedic palmistry oriented (2 authors: Birla & Sprong);
- elemental oriented (3 authors: Dukes, Fincham & Gettings);
- late 20th/early 21th century (the other 4 authors).

(It would make sense it the largerst differences between the individual authors relate to which group they belong!)

When this 'complementary chart' will also be ready, then I will probably start writing an article about this fascinating (controversial) topic... where both charts will be included, representing a 'mini-introduction course' in the field of hand reading!

wave

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 14 Thumb-21

Patti Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:09 am

My thoughts would be that the slightly larger ulnar side on women would relate to their primal role as mother, and as gatherer in regards to food. Whereas the male is the hunter and protector. A male with a larger ulnar side of palm is usually much more in touch with his nurturing side.

<edit> found the song I was looking for:

Peter Gabriel "Maybe he's looking for his womanly side, let him feel." Shaking the Tree

**Lynn** Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:19 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:However, now I would really like to go back to your comment where you described:

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Anyway Lynn... did Johnny's answer become anyhow helpful for you to understand his word-choice?

(If not, it would best to specifying your question... maybe your question was not very specific?)

Because Johnny didn't have the time to get involved in the discussion, hence didn't answer my 3 questions, you now wonder how specific my question was. *sigh*

Johnny's keywords didn't help my understanding.
BUT thinking about his words "I never do the balance of the quadrant order thing we used to do." made me think about how we used to do the quadrant orders.

Remembering quadrant orders, it occurred to me that actually Johnny's keywords do make sense when I relate it to leaning fingers, ie -
Fingers leaning to ulna side of the hand is more directed to inner world, fingers leading to radial side focus more on externals - P42 Spellbinding Power.

Because when all the fingers are leaning to the radial side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Ivory Tower quadrant, making it a weak area in the person. Hence no inner life, nor sense of self, sense of control, and greater dependence on externals.
When fingers lean to the ulna side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Public Stage quadrant so there is less emphasis on outer world, social connections, other people.

So in that sense, it still fits with my previous understanding of leaning fingers.

Because Lynn, you told me a few days ago that your association regarding 'inner world' and 'outer world' (nbw) only relates to palm: you associate the radial palm as 'outer world' and the ulnar palm with 'inner world'.

Correct?

Not exactly ONLY the palm. I said

I know that medically/biologically the ulna / radial division applies to the whole hand. And you are trying to divide the whole hand vertically from a palmistry perspective into "inner" and "outer". However I have already explained to you that I see it differently, as I view the inner/outer division to relate to ulna / radial sides of the PALM not the whole hand, ie not including fingers, because I see the fingers and thumb as ways of translating & expressing the energy of the palm out into the world.

During the course of this discussion I have also said things like "the fingers represent the mind" (long fingers - 'inner world predominates'), 'fingers represent consciousness', yet also spoken about associating conscious with outer and subconscious with inner. I've said how it is possible to subdivide the hand in many ways and then re-divide it even more, talked about the horizontal division of the palm, agreed with Patti when she said something like 'there is an inner and outer of everything' 'a spectrum', I've mentioned the outer expression of the inner person, and also agreed with Patti about the whole hand being the inner person.. It depends what feature you are looking at and how you are looking at it.

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Now, let's not forget that Johnny's label 'outer world' actually relates to the upper ulnar palm... which at first sight appears to be in contradiction with your association.

Correct?

Correct

Martijn (admin) wrote:However, then you started associating regarding the leaning of the fingers... but you actually started the association BY ADOPTING Johnny's perspective! Because you started from the point: 'Ivory Tower' = inner world, then you jumped to the fingers (which you described no longer to associated with 'inner- vs. outer world') and used Johnny's descripting for leaning fingers towards the ulnar side, which he associates with introversion, and finally you argued that 'leaning fingers towards the ulnar side' results in a larger 'Ivory Tower', and thus more introvert.

Correct?

Not exactly.
You asked me if Johnny's answer become anyhow helpful for me to understand his word-choice? I said not his keywords, but his words had reminded me about how we used to analyse quadrants & leaning fingers. Yes I then used Johnny's words to show how that had been helpful in my understanding, because that was the question you asked me. I didn't start with Ivory Tower and then jump to the fingers. I started with the fingers. I did not adopt Johnny's perspective at all, I didn't use the words introvert or extravert. This is what I actually said

Because when all the fingers are leaning to the radial side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Ivory Tower quadrant, making it a weak area in the person. Hence no inner life, nor sense of self, sense of control, and greater dependence on externals.
When fingers lean to the ulna side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Public Stage quadrant so there is less emphasis on outer world, social connections, other people.

Martijn (admin) wrote:Now Lynn I have 2 questions:

1) Since your reasoning started from 'Ivory Tower = inner world', does this implicate that you can now also sort of understand why I actually liked Johnny's label 'outer world' for the upper ulnar palmar quadrant? Or are you telling me that since Johnny uses it, you can use it as well at any time whenever you like, but... my choices regarding the labels I have adopted in my picture still do not make sense to you???

No. I used Johnny's words because you asked me if I had understood them any better, so illustrated my answer with his words. I don't use Johnny's way of doing it. I still prefer the 5-element way (fingers leaning to radial reduces the size of the fire quadrant etc), and I still see the ulna half of the palm as the more inner side. Actually I don't think anything in this discussion has so far changed the way I view any of the things we have been discussing since the start!

(You know what, this afternoon I bought myself a tross of 8 bananas! )

I'm glad you bought them for yourself, enjoy! lol!

Martijn (admin) wrote:
2) Please take a look at my 2 (large) pictures above, which show the dynamics resulting from leaning fingers. We can seen the folling patterns:

- Leaning fingers towards the radial side indeed result in a SMALLER 'Ivory Tower' (= less fire)... but there is so much more other results: the 'mirror finger' becomes MORE dominant (= more water), the 'peacock finger' becomes LESS dominant (= less fire), and e.g. the 'water quadrant' also becomes LARGER (= more water).

- And leaning fingers towards the ulnar side indeed result in a LARGER 'Ivory Tower' (= more fire)... but there is so much more other results: the 'mirror finger' becomes LESS dominant (= less water), the 'peacock finger' becomes MORE dominant (= more fire), and e.g. the 'water quadrant' also becomes SMALLER (= less water).

Yes of course I am aware of this, Martijn you seem to keep forgetting that I studied quadrants for years!

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Now, regarding the 2nd situation - leaning finger towards ulnar side - this results in a larger 'Ivory Tower'... but than means actually MORE FIRE (2x: larger fire quadrant + a more dominant fire finger) + LESS WATER (2x: less dominant water finger + a smaller water quadrant).

So, there is 2x more FIRE + 2x less WATER... sounds like a typical more 'EXTRAVERT' pattern to me.

(Correct?)

Sorry but you can't just add up the elements like 1+3-2= You have to look at what that element is representing in the various parts of the hand and how it is being used, expressed or repressed, what other elements it is working in conjunction with, numerous factors! Plus we haven't even discussed how to interpret the quadrants in order of size, nor the 24 possible combinations. The degree of leaning would affect the balance of all the quadrants, fingers & thumb. As I've said before, you just don't seem to understand the 5-element system!

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn, my second question is: would you please re-consider your reasoning regarding whether you really understand Johnny's word-choice?

(Because I think I have just described that so far your associations are a bit 'opportunistic'... without considering the full perspective of the hand, and I think I have just also described that it appears as if you only understood Johnny's reasoning... after letting go your own principles - because you started reasoning from Johnny's 'Ivory Tower'... but I think you actually still also associate the upper radial zone with... the 'outer world'! ... I hope you'll understand that I have actually described 2 'steps' in your reasoning that do not make much sense to me in the perspective of your other principles!) [/color]

No I don't understand Johnny's word choice. As I've already said, I can see how they might fit with leaning fingers, but that's about as far as my understanding goes. I don't know what you mean about opportunistic. And as I've said in my previous paragraph and elsewhere, you are the one who is not considering the full perspective of the hand when it comes to the 5-element approach. I have not let go any of my principles. I don't think my opinion has changed much at all since the start of this discussion, whereas your thoughts seem to have been much more changeable in some aspects.

There are plenty of handreaders who associate radial side with 'outer' and ulna side with 'inner'. So far your arguments have not persuaded me to change my views on that. I'm sorry if it frustrates you or baffles you that I am not taking all of your opinions on board.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:36 am

Patti wrote:My thoughts would be that the slightly larger ulnar side on women would relate to their primal role as mother, and as gatherer in regards to food. Whereas the male is the hunter and protector. A male with a larger ulnar side of palm is usually much more in touch with his nurturing side.

Well Patti, that is an interesting thought. However, my report does not relate to the full length of the ulnar side of the hand... it actually ONLY relates to the upper ulnar side, because I have made all measurements regarding the setting of the fingers relative to the central point of the upper wrist crease..

I hope I have described this clearly enough without a picture?

Actually, I think the development of especially the hypothenar does not play a role in the numbers that I found regarding the ulnar side... because the hypothenar can sometimes develop beyond the upper wrist crease - and this effect does not get account since I have only made those measurement in order to get more insights regarding the setting of the 4 fingers.

I hope this makes sense?

thinking

Hmmm... some day, I will probably dive into this topic again, and I will then also start studying how the heart line and head line are located relative to these (central) palmar measurements. But before I start making any step forward... I first want to find out whether my early findings get confirmed in a sample of identicial (mirror) twins.

Not sure that this specific type of palm measurements has every been studied before via measurments - I think I am only aware of the old books that provide some guidelines regarding the 'arch' of the palm - which I found quite 'impossible' to study as I was not aware of anly solid-method to describe/measure the palm's arch,

Maybe this is an interesting question for you Patti:

Are you aware of any study or author which has defined the palm's arch in the perspective of the central point of the wrist crease?

Patti Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:43 am

Arch = finger cast off from palm?

Patti Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:45 am

oh I bet you mean arch, like the foot. The hollow of the palm.

Patti Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:01 am

Lynn wrote:

During the course of this discussion I have also said things like "the fingers represent the mind" (long fingers - 'inner world predominates'), 'fingers represent consciousness', yet also spoken about associating conscious with outer and subconscious with inner. I've said how it is possible to subdivide the hand in many ways and then re-divide it even more, talked about the horizontal division of the palm, agreed with Patti when she said something like 'there is an inner and outer of everything' 'a spectrum', I've mentioned the outer expression of the inner person, and also agreed with Patti about the whole hand being the inner person.. It depends what feature you are looking at and how you are looking at it.

Lynn and I have pretty much agreed throughout this thread and I think the majority of the other member's posts have been supportive of our view as well.

We are both professional hand analysts doing this as our profession for decades. One thing you learn early, especially if you're taking someone's money, is that you drop all the incorrect meanings that you pick up from various authors (so called authorities) and fine tune your readings as you become more and more accurate in your interpretations.

Not to be arrogant, but if she and I have got this inner and outer thing wrong, then.... well.... I don't know what to say................................

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:14 am

Lynn wrote:... No I don't understand Johnny's word choice. ...

Lynn, thank you for your detailed answers: nearly everything made sense to me! Thumbs up!

But the worlds above ("No I don't understand Johnny's word choice.") were essential for me to see you writing.

Now, I think I have only one question left for you to anwer (but it's hard to discuss this with only one single question):

In your response you have explained (again) how you can use Johnny's description for the Ivory Tower to understand why he associates ulnar leaning fingers with introversion.

Correct?

Now you only leave me wondering... since the elemental system appears to use descriptions for the (upper) palm that appear to represent the opposite of Johnny's ideas, wouldn't that implicate that if you use likewise reasoning (like the one you described with Johnny's words)... the elemental principles would actually arrive at the opposite of Johnny's association regarding ulnar leaning fingers with introversion?

(What I am saying here is that to me it looks like you have allowed yourself to reason with Johnny's words via some kind of 'other road' that you usuallly do not use when applying the principles of elemental chirology... though, maybe we are only faced here with an inconsistency in Johnny's system? Or can you explain yourself why you associated leaning fingers towards the ulnar side with 'introversion' ... even though you described that you do not use the inner-outer division for the fingers like you use it for the palm???)

PS. For your info... at this stage I don't think that you will be surprized to hear from me that at the Academie Antropodynamica people have adopted the reversed idea regarding leaning fingers (which is not described in Sprong's book).

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:15 am

Patti wrote:Arch = finger cast off from palm?

Yep!

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:17 am

Patti wrote:oh I bet you mean arch, like the foot. The hollow of the palm.

Yes, 'arch' like the shape of an arch fingerprint... only then for the distal part of the full palm.

Yes

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:59 am

Patti wrote:
Lynn wrote:

During the course of this discussion I have also said things like "the fingers represent the mind" (long fingers - 'inner world predominates'), 'fingers represent consciousness', yet also spoken about associating conscious with outer and subconscious with inner. I've said how it is possible to subdivide the hand in many ways and then re-divide it even more, talked about the horizontal division of the palm, agreed with Patti when she said something like 'there is an inner and outer of everything' 'a spectrum', I've mentioned the outer expression of the inner person, and also agreed with Patti about the whole hand being the inner person.. It depends what feature you are looking at and how you are looking at it.

Lynn and I have pretty much agreed throughout this thread and I think the majority of the other member's posts have been supportive of our view as well.

We are both professional hand analysts doing this as our profession for decades. One thing you learn early, especially if you're taking someone's money, is that you drop all the incorrect meanings that you pick up from various authors (so called authorities) and fine tune your readings as you become more and more accurate in your interpretations.

Not to be arrogant, but if she and I have got this inner and outer thing wrong, then.... well.... I don't know what to say................................

Sorry Patti, but during this discussion I have myself perceived a huge difference between Lynn's view and your view... because Lynn is basically only working with principles from the elemental system (so far I can not describe it as 'holistic', because there are many clear 'rules' - many are described in Dukes' book, which e.g. also describes the difference between the dorsal hand and inner hand), and Lynn has specified her ideas about the palm regarding 'outer vs. inner'.

Regarding your position in this matter, you described yourself that you don't use the elemental system at all - not sure that you have adopted any method at all regarding quadrants???

I basically only know that you described your method as 'holistic', and I have asked you to specify your ideas about outer vs. inner... we have especially shared ideas regarding the concepts associated with the pinky - but I don't think you ever did specify anything explicit - especially not when I asked you to specify your ideas regarding specific aspects of the hand.

So far I could summarize your idea as: 'inner and outer are found in every zone of the hand'.

But that is not what Lynn described, because she uses only a similar concept for the fingers - but on top of that she also used the dorsal- (public) and inner (private) hand perspective as well (and regarding this perspective Lynn explicit allowed me to associated 'public' with 'outer' and 'private' with 'inner'!).

Thus Patti... so far you gave me the impression that you actually do not support the idea that the radial palm (or hand) represents 'outer' and the ulnar palm (or hand) 'inner'.

Correct?

(And if this is correct, how would you actually describe the agreement that you assume to have with Lynn? Sorry, I am only being honest with you when I tell you that I still don't have a clear perception of what your 'holistic' position really implicates - because you have not specified anything... even when you say that you agree with Lynn confused

)

Patti Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:23 am

So far I could summarize your idea as: 'inner and outer are found in every zone of the hand'

Yes, and importantly in various degrees. I would use graphics similar to Holtzman in regards to the shading from one degree to another.

Lynn has throughout this discussion mentioned that she agrees with me that the ulnar side of the hand relates to inner qualities and the radial side relates to outer qualities. She had agreed that the fingers are outer and the palms are inner. Substitute the whichever polarity set of synonyms such as active/passive, conscious/subconscious, or ego/id you like.

I agree with Lynn there are many more ways to subdivide the hand in practice. Such as the 3 worlds of the palm.

Elements give more specified adjectives for Lynn, but the essences of 2 sets of halves becoming quadrants is basically the same and should be in all systems as the hands do not change to adapt to somebody's published words or systems.

<edit>
P.S.:
I was thumbing thru Judith Hipskind's 2nd book on the knuckles a couple of days ago and she spends a bit of time discussing the back of the hand and the public.

**Lynn** Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:50 am

Now, I think I have only one question left for you to anwer (but it's hard to discuss this with only one single question):

Promise? only one question? Wink

oh no, there are 4 questions. Laughing

In your response you have explained (again) how you can use Johnny's description for the Ivory Tower to understand why he associates ulnar leaning fingers with introversion.
Correct?

Correct

Now you only leave me wondering... since the elemental system appears to use descriptions for the (upper) palm that appear to represent the opposite of Johnny's ideas, wouldn't that implicate that if you use likewise reasoning (like the one you described with Johnny's words)... the elemental principles would actually arrive at the opposite of Johnny's association regarding ulnar leaning fingers with introversion?

But I think I've already explained that both methods come to the same conclusion. (although I haven't gone into any details of how to analyse the active conscious and passive conscious (fire & air) quadrants).

(What I am saying here is that to me it looks like you have allowed yourself to reason with Johnny's words via some kind of 'other road' that you usuallly do not use when applying the principles of elemental chirology... though, maybe we are only faced here with an inconsistency in Johnny's system?

Sorry I don't know what you mean by 'other road'??
And I think I've already explained that I don't see an inconsistency or contradiction in Johnny's system regarding his labelling of quadrants and his info about leaning fingers.

Or can you explain yourself why you associated leaning fingers towards the ulnar side with 'introversion' ... even though you described that you do not use the inner-outer division for the fingers like you use it for the palm???)

Because the fingers are leaning towards the ulna side, and I view the ulna side as the inner. *simples* ie the mind / consciousness is more directed towards the inner world.

PS to add to my previous post. when I said

No I don't understand Johnny's word choice. As I've already said, I can see how they might fit with leaning fingers, but that's about as far as my understanding goes.

I should add that I understand much of his word choice if it were related to the fingers (and mounts maybe) rather than the whole upper palmar quadrants. And as previously stated, I can understand the 'world stage' if that area is viewed as the stage (setting the scene) rather than the actual performance.

PS. For your info... at this stage I don't think that you will be surprized to hear from me that at the Academie Antropodynamica people have adopted the reversed idea regarding leaning fingers (which is not described in Sprong's book)

No I'm not surprised. Laughing

**Lynn** Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:04 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Sorry Patti, but during this discussion I have myself perceived a huge difference between Lynn's view and your view... because Lynn is basically only working with principles from the elemental system (so far I can not describe it as 'holistic', because there are many clear 'rules' - many are described in Dukes' book, which e.g. also describes the difference between the dorsal hand and inner hand), and Lynn has specified her ideas about the palm regarding 'outer vs. inner'.

Regarding your position in this matter, you described yourself that you don't use the elemental system at all - not sure that you have adopted any method at all regarding quadrants???

I see more agreement between me & Patti on this discussion than disagreement.
Regardless of which system we use, Patti and I usually come to similar conclusions about interpretation of how the hand features play out in a person's life, and that's the most important thing for our clients - they're not particularly interested how we go about it, or how the hand is labelled, they want to know what it means for them & their life.

I'm not sure why you say you can not describe the 5-element system as 'holistic'? It is looking at the whole hand, looking at every feature and how they inter-relate on different levels. That's holistic - the whole and the inter-dependence of its parts.

Thus Patti... so far you gave me the impression that you actually do not support the idea that the radial palm (or hand) represents 'outer' and the ulnar palm (or hand) 'inner'.

I had a different impression. In fact Patti confirms my impression in her next msg
Patti says

Lynn has throughout this discussion mentioned that she agrees with me that the ulnar side of the hand relates to inner qualities and the radial side relates to outer qualities. She had agreed that the fingers are outer and the palms are inner. Substitute the whichever polarity set of synonyms such as active/passive, conscious/subconscious, or ego/id you like.

**Lynn** Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:17 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:PS. I think this specific issue actually deserves to become a new topic on it's own... but I would like to make a quick report here:

Recently, I have done some measurements on the palm based on the central wrist crease + the 4 onsets of the fingers. The results were quite astonishing: e.g. the variation was much smaller than I expected regarding the male-female difference... and the male for example had a (relatively) slightly 'shorter' ulnar palm length and a slightly 'longer' radial palm length - compared to the women. I think this is a surprizing results because we know from scientific studies that in the fingers the effect is actually reversed and much larger - which was also confirmed in my small study!

And another stricking observation concerned that the distance to the ring finger was in only one out of 48 hands always (much) smaller than the distance to the index finger. And in the males the distance to ring finger was clearly relatively SHORTER than in the females - which concerns also a pattern that is the reversed-effect of the typical 2d:4d digit ratio difference between men and women!

(By the way, I did these measurement in the perspective of my Extraversion study)[/color]

This is interesting, but I don't find it at all surprising.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:15 pm

Lynn wrote:...
Now you only leave me wondering... since the elemental system appears to use descriptions for the (upper) palm that appear to represent the opposite of Johnny's ideas, wouldn't that implicate that if you use likewise reasoning (like the one you described with Johnny's words)... the elemental principles would actually arrive at the opposite of Johnny's association regarding ulnar leaning fingers with introversion?
But I think I've already explained that both methods come to the same conclusion. (although I haven't gone into any details of how to analyse the active conscious and passive conscious (fire & air) quadrants).

... Lynn, let me put it like this:

I fully understand you view, because you have described to me that you associated the ulnar palm with inner world... and therefore you associate ulnar leaning fingers with outer world (this makes sense to me because at the Academie Antropodynamica the opposite associations are being used).
And I also understand why you don't want to associate the ulnar fingers with inner word, e.g. because you have described that it perfectly makes sense to you that the long ring finger is associated with 'extraversion' (as described by Johnny in his first book only) - which fits in my view with the 'outward' directed qualities associated with fire - especially when the fingers are concerned.

However, regarding Johnny's method you started reasoning about how the 'Ivory Tower' becomes larger when the fingers are leaning to the ulnar side (= more 'Ivory Tower')... and you used this single observation to argue that his 'introversion' association regarding the ulnar leaning makes sense to you. And yoiu assume that this is his 'method'.

(Correct?)

And in your use of the elemental principles (your 'method')... you obviously don't want to focus your attention on the 'fire quadrant' at all, because obviously you associate the 'fire quadrant' with outer world... and with ulnar leaning finger this 'fire quadrant' becomes larger - because the 'Ivory Tower' also gets larger.

(Correct?)

Now, I think my point is pretty obvious... regarding Johnny's vocabulary you are using different 'reasoning' in order to explain that how the large 'Ivory Tower' explains the 'introverted' ulnar leaning fingers. For, regarding Johnny's guidelines you talk about the size of the quadrant.. while in your own perspective you basically only start talking about the vertical principle.

And I don't recognize how this change of perspective (quadrant approach vs vertical approach) can be recognized as consistent.

This appers to me as a rather 'opportune' style of reasoning, with an underlying inconsisency.

Because obviously, the large 'fire quadrant' implicates the opposite of a large 'Ivory Tower' - which explains why you have said explicit (repeatedly) that you don't understand Johnny's use of vocabulary... and therefore, if you had used a likewise method of reasoning it would only have made sense if Johnny had stated that ulnar leaning fingers can be associated with 'extraversion'.

And for this reason I can not understand that you don't see any 'contradiction' in Johnny's writings at all... unles you are using two different methods of reasoning. Therefore I spoke of an 'other road'!

Lynn, I think this is about rather simple 'logics'... because it is simply impossible to apply the same rules to 2 opposite principles and then to find that the implications of both statements are actually the same.

(In short 'logics' implicate: consistent use of opposite principles results in opposite implications)

Anyway, I will now stop asking more questions about Johnny's work. But I want you to know that I have enjoyed our discussion about Johnny's work very much and it became very helpful to understand his work much better!

. wave

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:26 pm

Patti wrote:My thoughts would be that the slightly larger ulnar side on women would relate to their primal role as mother, and as gatherer in regards to food. Whereas the male is the hunter and protector. A male with a larger ulnar side of palm is usually much more in touch with his nurturing side.

<edit> found the song I was looking for:

Peter Gabriel "Maybe he's looking for his womanly side, let him feel." Shaking the Tree

Hmmm.. again, while I used the words 'ulnar side' I had probably better used other words. Because I think my findings regarding the relatively lower 'pinky setting' in men are probably the results of the fact that men have relatively wider palms - and thus the setting of the pinky will be located at a relatively larger distance.

This could indicate that my findings regarding the setting of the pinky should be corrected for palm width, and this could also explain why the other male-female differences are much smaller.

Anyway, this is an interesting topic for later explorations (probably not in the near future).

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:49 pm

Patti wrote:
So far I could summarize your idea as: 'inner and outer are found in every zone of the hand'

Yes, and importantly in various degrees. I would use graphics similar to Holtzman in regards to the shading from one degree to another.

Lynn has throughout this discussion mentioned that she agrees with me that the ulnar side of the hand relates to inner qualities and the radial side relates to outer qualities. She had agreed that the fingers are outer and the palms are inner. Substitute the whichever polarity set of synonyms such as active/passive, conscious/subconscious, or ego/id you like.

I agree with Lynn there are many more ways to subdivide the hand in practice. Such as the 3 worlds of the palm.

Elements give more specified adjectives for Lynn, but the essences of 2 sets of halves becoming quadrants is basically the same and should be in all systems as the hands do not change to adapt to somebody's published words or systems.

<edit>
P.S.:
I was thumbing thru Judith Hipskind's 2nd book on the knuckles a couple of days ago and she spends a bit of time discussing the back of the hand and the public.

Patti, thank you for specifying & summarizing your thoughts... finally! Thumbs up!

PS. In my view a principle becomes 'contradictive' when it is applied both to the vertical dimension AND the horizontal dimension of the hand.

Because, when radial = outer & ulnar is inner, AND when fingers = outer & palm = inner... then only the radial palm AND the ulnar fingers become associated with... both inner & outer! confused

Now this looks quite like an inconsistent use of principles to me... can you understand this perception of min? Smile

(I also think that your description confirms that Lynn is using a different approach because she is only using the vertical approach for the palm and while she indeed also associates the palm with 'inner' she is using a more abstract concept regarding the fingers - so regarding Lynn's approach I could say that I only perceive an inconsistency regarding the radial palm... because in Lynn's approach it gets associated with outer & inner!)

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Sorry Patti, but during this discussion I have myself perceived a huge difference between Lynn's view and your view... because Lynn is basically only working with principles from the elemental system (so far I can not describe it as 'holistic', because there are many clear 'rules' - many are described in Dukes' book, which e.g. also describes the difference between the dorsal hand and inner hand), and Lynn has specified her ideas about the palm regarding 'outer vs. inner'.

Regarding your position in this matter, you described yourself that you don't use the elemental system at all - not sure that you have adopted any method at all regarding quadrants???

I see more agreement between me & Patti on this discussion than disagreement.
Regardless of which system we use, Patti and I usually come to similar conclusions about interpretation of how the hand features play out in a person's life, and that's the most important thing for our clients - they're not particularly interested how we go about it, or how the hand is labelled, they want to know what it means for them & their life.

I'm not sure why you say you can not describe the 5-element system as 'holistic'? It is looking at the whole hand, looking at every feature and how they inter-relate on different levels. That's holistic - the whole and the inter-dependence of its parts.

Thus Patti... so far you gave me the impression that you actually do not support the idea that the radial palm (or hand) represents 'outer' and the ulnar palm (or hand) 'inner'.
I had a different impression. In fact Patti confirms my impression in her next msg
Patti says
Lynn has throughout this discussion mentioned that she agrees with me that the ulnar side of the hand relates to inner qualities and the radial side relates to outer qualities. She had agreed that the fingers are outer and the palms are inner. Substitute the whichever polarity set of synonyms such as active/passive, conscious/subconscious, or ego/id you like.

Yes Lynn, that is my perception as well... your view and Patti's view do show many similarities.

Regarding the word holistic, well... in a way one can say that hand reading is always a 'holistic' tool in the sense that it requires the use of combinations and a study of multiple dimensions of the hand. And yes, the principle of the 'graduated materiality' can be recognised as a holistic principle. However, I also recognize how various 'artificial' structural concepts are being applied to the hand ... where e.g. the 4 finger gets seperated from the 4 palmar zones below (e.g. fire quadrant is described to have a water finger + earth finger above it), ending up in describing the 2nd thumb phalange as the 'water phalange'... while it gets associated with principles that more appear to relate so much more to the element 'air'.

So, yes, the philosophy of the elemental system is for sure 'holistic' and there is also for sure the intend to apply the principles in a 'holistic' manner - but one can debate whether it is 'holistic' or 'artificial' to first apply 4 philosophical principles to the hand... in order to then adopt at the end only the palmar part of some (unfounded) classic principle (describing: ulnar = inner and radial = outer) - even though fire and earth do not explicitely get associated with 'outer' nor 'inner'... because they are actually supposed to represent HOLISTIC principles!

Very Happy

PS. In my literature research I have found that many authors actually do not use the 'outer vs. inner' division at all!!! And the key-words in my picture(s) kind of describe why! (e.g. I have described how the key-words for the pinky nearly always relate to the 'outer world' -only a few works this is clearly not the case and I could describe Holtzman's work is an example for that).

**Lynn** Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:31 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:...
Now you only leave me wondering... since the elemental system appears to use descriptions for the (upper) palm that appear to represent the opposite of Johnny's ideas, wouldn't that implicate that if you use likewise reasoning (like the one you described with Johnny's words)... the elemental principles would actually arrive at the opposite of Johnny's association regarding ulnar leaning fingers with introversion?
But I think I've already explained that both methods come to the same conclusion. (although I haven't gone into any details of how to analyse the active conscious and passive conscious (fire & air) quadrants).

... Lynn, let me put it like this:

I fully understand you view, because you have described to me that you associated the ulnar palm with inner world... and therefore you associate ulnar leaning fingers with outer world (this makes sense to me because at the Academie Antropodynamica the opposite associations are being used).
And I also understand why you don't want to associate the ulnar fingers with inner word, e.g. because you have described that it perfectly makes sense to you that the long ring finger is associated with 'extraversion' (as described by Johnny in his first book only) - which fits in my view with the 'outward' directed qualities associated with fire - especially when the fingers are concerned.

However, regarding Johnny's method you started reasoning about how the 'Ivory Tower' becomes larger when the fingers are leaning to the ulnar side (= more 'Ivory Tower')... and you used this single observation to argue that his 'introversion' association regarding the ulnar leaning makes sense to you. And yoiu assume that this is his 'method'.

(Correct?)

And in your use of the elemental principles (your 'method')... you obviously don't want to focus your attention on the 'fire quadrant' at all, because obviously you associate the 'fire quadrant' with outer world... and with ulnar leaning finger this 'fire quadrant' becomes larger - because the 'Ivory Tower' also gets larger.

(Correct?)

Now, I think my point is pretty obvious... regarding Johnny's vocabulary you are using different 'reasoning' in order to explain that how the large 'Ivory Tower' explains the 'introverted' ulnar leaning fingers. For, regarding Johnny's guidelines you talk about the size of the quadrant.. while in your own perspective you basically only start talking about the vertical principle.

And I don't recognize how this change of perspective (quadrant approach vs vertical approach) can be recognized as consistent.

This appers to me as a rather 'opportune' style of reasoning, with an underlying inconsisency.

Because obviously, the large 'fire quadrant' implicates the opposite of a large 'Ivory Tower' - which explains why you have said explicit (repeatedly) that you don't understand Johnny's use of vocabulary... and therefore, if you had used a likewise method of reasoning it would only have made sense if Johnny had stated that ulnar leaning fingers can be associated with 'extraversion'.

And for this reason I can not understand that you don't see any 'contradiction' in Johnny's writings at all... unles you are using two different methods of reasoning. Therefore I spoke of an 'other road'!

Lynn, I think this is about rather simple 'logics'... because it is simply impossible to apply the same rules to 2 opposite principles and then to find that the implications of both statements are actually the same.

(In short 'logics' implicate: consistent use of opposite principles results in opposite implications)

Anyway, I will now stop asking more questions about Johnny's work. But I want you to know that I have enjoyed our discussion about Johnny's work very much and it became very helpful to understand his work much better!

.

OK I understand what you are asking.
I have made a fundamental mistake really in projecting & trying to translate C.Soc methods of quadrant analysis onto Johnny's hand map, because Johnny doesn't use quadrant analysis these days. So, I guess we really shouldn't be comparing the two methods. I only used it to try and understand Johnny's keywords in conjunction with leaning fingers.

Anyway to explain a bit further about what I was trying to say...

In my description, when I said “it becomes a weak area in the person” I was basing it on an assumption that the fingers are leaning far enough for the quadrant mentioned to become the smallest of the four. I did this to make it easier to explain.
I said :

Because when all the fingers are leaning to the radial side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Ivory Tower quadrant, making it a weak area in the person. Hence no inner life, nor sense of self, sense of control, and greater dependence on externals.
When fingers lean to the ulna side of the hand, it reduces the size of the Public Stage quadrant so there is less emphasis on outer world, social connections, other people.

I could re-write it in 5-element terms as:
Because when all the fingers are leaning to the radial side of the hand, it reduces the size of the fire (conscious, active) quadrant, making it a weak area in the person. Hence less ability to express their fire energy, assert themselves, take initiative and create change in their lives, and greater dependence on externals.

When fingers lean to the ulna side of the hand, it reduces the size of the air (subconscious active) quadrant so there is less emphasis on expressing their ideas, communication, evaluation, slower thought processes and greater prevarication & reliance on their instincts.

But these are rather general descriptions, because we don’t know the order of the other 3 quadrants. Whilst I have generalised above in assuming the smallest quadrants, for ease of description, you also seem to have generalised/made assumptions:
You seem to assume that, if the air (Public Stage) quadrant is smallest, then the Fire (Ivory Tower) is largest, but that’s not necessarily the case.

Going back to your diagrams, I notice that they appear to be based on Dylan Warren Davis’ way of delineating quadrants. I’ve never used his method. I’m not sure why you did it that way when we are talking about C.Soc and Johnny’s methods (maybe because at the time you misunderstood about Dukes taking the vertical line from the fingertip, and hadn't noticed that Johnny doesn't use 90 degree angle for the horizontal line but positions it according to Mars mounts.) The way you have drawn and labelled them, it appears that only the water and fire quadrants are affected, but if they were accurately drawn with regard to C.Soc methods then all four quadrant sizes would be affected. I assume the same can be said if you did it via Johnny’s method. As I said last night “The degree of leaning would affect the balance of all the quadrants, fingers & thumb.”

When you mention the larger fire quadrant, my question is "larger than what?". Yes it is larger than it would be if the fingers were straight, but how large compared to the earth and water quadrants? That depends on the degree of angle of the fingers. So we can't assume that a 'larger fire quadrant' makes them 'more extravert' unless we know whether it is 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in the order.

Capice? Wink

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