another question body language this time.

**jeanette** Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm

Hi,
This another one and this really annoys me. It is only men who seem to do this. They sit or even worse lie back and one leg comes up, usually the right, and goes over the knee of the other leg, with the foot hanging over. It puts me right off and these people I have found to be arrogant. Any thoughts anybody.
Jeanette.

**Martijn (admin)** Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:15 am

jeanette wrote:Hi,
This another one and this really annoys me. It is only men who seem to do this. They sit or even worse lie back and one leg comes up, usually the right, and goes over the knee of the other leg, with the foot hanging over. It puts me right off and these people I have found to be arrogant. Any thoughts anybody.
Jeanette.

Hi Jeanette,

I have moved your topic because it doesn't related to hands - but your 'body language' question is welcome anyway.

My association is that it's basically just a relaxing position - though I can understand that it can present an unpleasant view, especially if one is 'confronted' with this "open-leggs" variant at a close distance. So, maybe your association is actually quite accurate when a person takes that position with people at a very close distance!!

Though even in that situation it would just prove that the person is (very likely) not aware of the effect of this posture to other people.

scratch

However... that may actually be a typical issue when people are really trying to relax and not worry too much about anything - but does that make them 'arrogant'?

thinking

Not sure at all, I think it really depends on the situation (+ the viewer's distance, etc).

wave

**kimmcgaw** Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:30 am

This is coming from someone who lives in a warm climate.... but when a man does this, he may just be "airing" out the "crown jewels" ......without blatantly rearranging himself. Very Happy

We see plenty of this in Texas summers. But then again, a lot of the men *are* arrogant.

Hmmmm.... this may require further investigation.

- Kim

**jeanette** Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:13 pm

kimmcgaw wrote:This is coming from someone who lives in a warm climate.... but when a man does this, he may just be "airing" out the "crown jewels" ......without blatantly rearranging himself.

We see plenty of this in Texas summers. But then again, a lot of the men *are* arrogant.

Hmmmm.... this may require further investigation.

- Kim

What a vulgar comment.

**Lynn** Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:08 am

hi Jeanette, I've been away a few days and just noticed this. I'm sorry if you found Kim's post in any way offensive, I am sure she didn't intend to be in any way 'vulgar'. Actually Kim made me laugh, I thought she posted a potentially 'delicate' explanation with humour, and it seems likely to me that she has a good point in her suggestion. I guess only the guys can confirm if it might be true! So far one man said it might be a relaxing position, and the guy might not be aware of the effect of this posture to other people. But seems us girls are aware of men sitting in this posture, for whatever reason!

**Martijn (admin)** Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:20 am

... Maybe Jeanette took Kim's comment too literally?

(Basically, I agree with Lynn: Kim's comment was probably meant as a funny but serious comment with no intent to shock - Jeanette probably misunderstood Kim's comment)

**Lynn** Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:42 am

I think Jeanette understood it just fine, but, whilst I found Kim's comment very amusing and probably true, I understand & respect that some people prefer not to talk about such things, depending on background, where they live in the world etc.

**jeanette** Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:39 am

Lynn wrote:I think Jeanette understood it just fine, but, whilst I found Kim's comment very amusing and probably true, I understand & respect that some people prefer not to talk about such things, depending on background, where they live in the world etc.

Hi Lynn, That is exactly right we do not talk about such things. It is how I was brought up and all my friends are the same. I love a laugh, but I cannot laugh at the likes of that. I would feel so guilty, knowing what my parents would have said,especially my father. His opinion would have been to laugh would mean you were as bad as the person who said it. However, when you say only guys can confirm it I hope that does not give the green light to encourage further discussions and, even worse descriptions. I could not cope with it. You said a man posted and said he thought it was a relaxing position, well that was a very nice way of putting it. He sounds like a gentleman. That was what Kim was saying, but unfortunately put it so crudely. One thing I must thank her for is letting me know what like the men in Texas are so I never intend to visit there. Thanks for your answer and apology.
Jeanette.

**jeanette** Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:46 am

Martijn (admin) wrote: ... Maybe Jeanette took Kim's comment too literally?

(Basically, I agree with Lynn: Kim's comment was probably meant as a funny but serious comment with no intent to shock - Jeanette probably misunderstood Kim's comment)

Hi Martijin, I understood it when I read it all, but on first reading I stopped when she mentioned the crown jewels and I thought she was going to say the person doing this would probably have a rajah loop and thought they were superior and I was so interested thinking this position shows up on the hand. I must say I am laughing at myself now for thinking that. Thanks for the reply.
Jeanette.

Patti Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:06 pm

jeanette wrote:Hi,
This another one and this really annoys me. It is only men who seem to do this. They sit or even worse lie back and one leg comes up, usually the right, and goes over the knee of the other leg, with the foot hanging over. It puts me right off and these people I have found to be arrogant. Any thoughts anybody.
Jeanette.

Hi Jeanette,
I'd like to recommend a really good book. "How to Read a Person Like a Book" by Gerald I Nierenberg and Henry H. Calero. I have a number of body language books and this is still my favorite. I also like "Body Talk" by Desmond Morris.

The former book, mentions this leg crossing the other with ankle over knee and foot dangling. This author, referring to the work of an earlier researcher, called this the "figure four" and says "Apparently this is strictly an American way of sitting, and even many American women, when wearing slacks, adopt it.

This I agree with. I occasionally when wearing jeans will sit that way - more often though I prefer to put the ankle under my knee than over.

What changes the position to arrogance is the leaning back part. Especially if the arms are up and the hands behind the head. This implies smuggness and the leg position becomes challenging or competitive. The unprotected 'family jewels' (hope you didn't blush) and arms up is a bold fearless position. Watch politicians on news interviews, when they are being challenged and in open seating - no table to hide behind - they will often place their hands in their lap in protective positions, subconsciously, especially if under attack.

If the leg is crossed towards a person in Western culture, it implies being in agreement with each other. Crossing your leg away from someone is a sign of disagreement or a showing of not really 'with' the person on the side you're pointing your foot away from.

There is also a fine line between the body language of a crossed leg and showing bottom of foot and the culture you're in as to whether you are coming across as accepting and friendly or offensive.

In American culture, a male crossing his leg European fashion may be considered more feminine.

One of my classes in my real estate work was relating to how different gestures that are normal and accepted in one culture can be offensive and insulting in another.

The example was in regards to showing the bottom of your foot/shoe to your guest/host.

The salesman lost his big sales opportunity when he sat down and crossed his legs in such a way to continuouly show the bottom on his foot to his foreign client. He also refused the coffee or beverage offered. Etc. Not knowing each of his acts in the other culture was considered an insult.

I think entering the world of people reading, involves the "impolite" as well as the polite. It's like health care work - you may get thrown up on once in a while helping others get well, it's part of the job description.

best regards,
Patti

Patti Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:10 pm

kimmcgaw wrote:This is coming from someone who lives in a warm climate.... but when a man does this, he may just be "airing" out the "crown jewels" ......without blatantly rearranging himself.

We see plenty of this in Texas summers. But then again, a lot of the men *are* arrogant.

Hmmmm.... this may require further investigation.

- Kim

My sister lives in Dallas... I can't wait until we next talk!!

Very Happy

Patti

**jeanette** Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:23 pm

Hi Patti,
That was what I witnessed lying back with the hands behind the back and the legs in that position. It was when I was in Australia and I went to my cousins house on Hogmanay (New Years Eve) and they had this friend there and when I went out the back he was lying on a sun couch or whatever you call it in this position. They introduced us and he never moved from that position. He said hi, because he was in the middle of talking to my cousin's husband. However, later when it must have suited him he came and spoke to me. I thought he did it because he thought it was expected and the little he said I thought him arrogant. His wife and three children were with him and the wife was really nice and friendly. He had met her when he was in London to do with his work. She is Australian and he came from Dunfermline in Scotland!
Thanks for all that information. I will look up the books you mentioned and see how much they cost.
Jeanette.

Patti Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:06 pm

Hi Jeanette,
He doesn't sound a little like he wasn't very mindful of his manners at all. If the body language was already there before you approached, you may have walked in on a body language confrontation between males. You mention he was in a conversation with your cousin's husband.

I noticed the book was published in 1971 and my edition is 1973 and I bought it new. Smile

So after almost 40 years, I guess it's more universal position to sit.

<edit> lol, just realized my first sentence is a double negative! I meant "he does sound" not doesn't!)

**jeanette** Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:34 pm

Hi Patti,
I tried to get these books, but no luck. The first on How to Read Someone like a book I could have got on ebay. You had to bid and put in so much information I got all confused and abandoned it. Thanks.
Jeanette.

P.S. What did you mean at the end of your post yesterday when you said I guess it's more universal position to sit.

Patti Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:39 pm

jeanette wrote:
P.S. What did you mean at the end of your post yesterday when you said I guess it's more universal position to sit.

I meant the book from the 70's said it was a predominantly an American position, but you were describing someone from Australia in Scotland. So this posiiton is obviously no longer just American.
Patti

**Lynn** Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:24 pm

Hi Jeanette,
"How to Read a Person Like a Book" by Gerald I Nierenberg and Henry H. Calero
is available for £2.49 + £2.75 delivery on www.amazon.co.uk

or cheaper from The Book depository as free delivery - £4.09
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780671735579/How-to-Read-a-Person-Like-a-Book

**jeanette** Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:48 pm

Lynn wrote:Hi Jeanette,
"How to Read a Person Like a Book" by Gerald I Nierenberg and Henry H. Calero
is available for £2.49 + £2.75 delivery on www.amazon.co.uk

or cheaper from The Book depository as free delivery - £4.09
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780671735579/How-to-Read-a-Person-Like-a-Book

Great Lynn I have just ordered it. Thanks a lot for telling me.
Jeanette.

**Den** Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:39 am

Wanted to state my opinion. Male body language is very different than women in some ways. Usually if a guy gets in a relaxed position it is because he is "tuning in" to you in my observation. Men in a relaxed position are showing trust on some level...when they are tense and more formal, usually they are guarded. Women often see this as arrogant and flirty, and it certainly can be in some cases.

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:48 am

Den wrote:Wanted to state my opinion. Male body language is very different than women in some ways. Usually if a guy gets in a relaxed position it is because he is "tuning in" to you in my observation. Men in a relaxed position are showing trust on some level...when they are tense and more formal, usually they are guarded. Women often see this as arrogant and flirty, and it certainly can be in some cases.

Hey Den!

Thanks for sharing, you thoughts + observations make sense for me.

another question body language this time. 898444

(I guess the meaning of this body language really depends on the situation + even the person who makes the observations ...!)

**Den** Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:58 pm

There are cultural differences, I read my customers' body language to see what kind of mood they are in. Very Happy

It's interesting thing to study, very revealing.

**jeanette** Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:08 am

Just reading Den's reply and on looking at his photo he looks very happy and content, however, what is his hand gesture conveying.
Jeanette.

**Den** Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:42 pm

LOL...my 9 year old daughter was taking my picture at the pool, and she told me to take my glasses off. I guess the message was "hurry up kid, the sun is melting my retinas"

**Ron** Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:16 pm

jeanette wrote:It is only men who seem to do this. They sit or even worse lie back and one leg comes up, usually the right, and goes over the knee of the other leg, with the foot hanging over. It puts me right off and these people I have found to be arrogant

You have absolutely no idea how many do it! I'm doing it right now as we speak. I'm lying back, my right leg is up over the my left knee, with my foot handing over it, which gives me leverage to put my laptop on my leg to use, which I'm using now.

It does not necessarily indicate arrogance, as many men, and especially WOMEN do it for various reasons.

**jeanette** Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:30 pm

Hi Ron,
During the discussion we had about this Patti posted and recommended a great book, which I bought. It is How to read a person like a book by Gerald L. Nierenberg and Henry H. Calero.It depends on the situation and what you are doing. You are okay as you are just getting into a comfortable position while working at your laptop, but if I came to visit you and you were not working at your laptop and you lay back, hands behind your head and the leg up and over this would be arrogant. If the person sits straight in a chair and positions the leg like this,but no hands behind head, this is just a comfortable position. They call it the figure four position. They say it is more common with Americans.
Jeanette.

**Ron** Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:00 pm

Well in almost in all situations and events I sit like that, with the one leg over the other, whether I'm eating at a restaurant, in the car (when I'm not driving), with clients, everywhere!

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