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Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Patti on Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:37 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, after I have presented the example from Benham's book I am not sure if there is anything left unclear about my position in this topic.

By the way, please feel free to describe by detail (with a quote from my words) for which specific passages in my comments you would like me to present more substantial support.


Smile

Then you are unable to find support from any of the medical or biological resources to support your claim? By the way, I think Benham is only offering an opinion as well.

(Your claim that her life line is short and the longitudinal line is only a fate line.)

Patti

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Patti on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:07 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, after I have presented the example from Benham's book I am not sure if there is anything left unclear about my position in this topic.

By the way, please feel free to describe by detail (with a quote from my words) for which specific passages in my comments you would like me to present more substantial support.


Smile

You may also want to combine Benham's definition of the Mars Line, too. It must "run so near to the Life line that it is manifestly related to it and only to it and is not one of the lines of Influence on the Mount of Venus".

Patti

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:38 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, after I have presented the example from Benham's book I am not sure if there is anything left unclear about my position in this topic.

By the way, please feel free to describe by detail (with a quote from my words) for which specific passages in my comments you would like me to present more substantial support.


Smile

Then you are unable to find support from any of the medical or biological resources to support your claim? By the way, I think Benham is only offering an opinion as well.

(Your claim that her life line is short and the longitudinal line is only a fate line.)

Patti, I wonder why you want me to give support specific from those scientific sources, because I have never ever seen any scientific model describing how to discriminate a life line (radial longitudinal crease) from a fate line (sagittal crease), etc..


However... okay, no problem I am able to give a few detailed arguments with reference to various elements in the work of Bali and the Korean article.

The following references to those two works provide some additional support for my assessment:

1) I could argue that example 2t of Bali's figure 9.7 shows that some hands typically have a very short life line. So there nothing abnormal if a life line ends at a rather early point.

2) The Korean article also clearly points out that the end point of the life line is found in even up to 45% of the cases not in the 5 most common positions described in figure 7. By the way, the Korean article does not even mention the fate line at all.

3) I could add that according the Korean approach one can not say that the fate line represents a 'broken' life line variant... because that would require the fate line to be positioned sort of in line with the life line (as suggested by figure 5-d and the word 'straight') ... my aunt's hand does not meet this requirement. So according the Korean approach one should exclude the possibility of a 'broken' line variant

4) Now, then one could wonder whether the fate line represents an 'accessory' line next to the short life line. However, that would require the lines to run parallel... my aunt's hand at best only for a small part meets this requirement (because it is obvious that only a small part of the short life line runs with about half of the 3th part of the fate line). However, one has to become aware that it is actually quite natural for a fate line to run partly parallel to the lower part of the life line - which brings me to my final point 3!

5) Regarding the name 'sagittal crease', it is important to understand that it's name refers to the typical characteristic for this crease to 'divides' the ulnar side from the radial side and it tends to run toward the central finger (3th finger). Now, if we can take a look at the three parts of the fate line that can be distinguished in my aunt's hand:

- Part 1 clearly divides the ulnar side from the radial side of the palm and the lower part of the line runs towards the 3th finger; then the upper part sort of 'forks' (resulting in part 2 of the fate line) and then the line makes a slight turn towards the ring finger at; obviously this part one does not surround the thenar so it can not serve as representing the typical characteristic of a life line.

- Part 2 results from the 'forking' of part 1 (with a small 'break'), and it manifests kind of with the same characteristics as part 1.

- Part 3 results from the 'forking' of part 2 (with a small 'break'); the lower part runs towards the 3rd finger, and the upper part runs towards the zone between the 3rd and 2nd finger. Regarding part 3 one could question whether it is still dividing the ulnar zone of the palm from the radial zone of the palm, however... it is not uncommon at all that a fate runs in the upper half of the palm towards the 2nd finger (which is not even the case here) so this sort of shows that part 3 runs kind of within zone where one can expect to find a fate line. And finally this line appears to end just before the small island in the head line.


Now Patti, after giving you these 5 arguments from the work of Bali and the Korean article...do you have any other wishes/needs/requirements?


study


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:54 am

Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, after I have presented the example from Benham's book I am not sure if there is anything left unclear about my position in this topic.

By the way, please feel free to describe by detail (with a quote from my words) for which specific passages in my comments you would like me to present more substantial support.


Smile

You may also want to combine Benham's definition of the Mars Line, too. It must "run so near to the Life line that it is manifestly related to it and only to it and is not one of the lines of Influence on the Mount of Venus".

Patti, I don't see any significant problem rising here because Benham actually describes on page 509 that the mars line is a specific influence line:

"The line of Mars is a sister to the line of Life, running inside of that line and parallel to it."

I think both requirements are met for the blue line in my picture because it is not uncommon for a mars line to diverge slightly from the life line; and both lines appear to start very close to each other. Finally, the print does not show any other likewise lines (there are only a couple of small fragments of minor creases)


___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  chakraborty on Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:24 am

Dear Martijn,

Can we summarize the arguments by various posters as follows - and would like your short answer to the points below (yes /No)

Regarding Life expectancy

1) Life line length is the ONLY factor (I personally do not agree with this)

2) Life line length is NOT a factor

3) Life Line length may be one of the few factors

____________________________________

To all experienced palm readers & researchers

Have you seen a long life in spite of having very short life line and NOT supported by either a overlapping long life line OR a FATE line which rises from centre of hand & close to wrist ? (Such a Fate line is supposed to provide support in the area where segment of Life line is missing - but I can not provide any reference to this statement)

The above is for learning purpose only.

regards

Chakraborty

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Patti on Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:56 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti, after I have presented the example from Benham's book I am not sure if there is anything left unclear about my position in this topic.

By the way, please feel free to describe by detail (with a quote from my words) for which specific passages in my comments you would like me to present more substantial support.


Smile

Then you are unable to find support from any of the medical or biological resources to support your claim? By the way, I think Benham is only offering an opinion as well.

(Your claim that her life line is short and the longitudinal line is only a fate line.)

Patti, I wonder why you want me to give support specific from those scientific sources, because I have never ever seen any scientific model describing how to discriminate a life line (radial longitudinal crease) from a fate line (sagittal crease), etc..


However... okay, no problem I am able to give a few detailed arguments with reference to various elements in the work of Bali and the Korean article.

The following references to those two works provide some additional support for my assessment:

1) I could argue that example 2t of Bali's figure 9.7 shows that some hands typically have a very short life line. So there nothing abnormal if a life line ends at a rather early point.

2) The Korean article also clearly points out that the end point of the life line is found in even up to 45% of the cases not in the 5 most common positions described in figure 7. By the way, the Korean article does not even mention the fate line at all.

3) I could add that according the Korean approach one can not say that the fate line represents a 'broken' life line variant... because that would require the fate line to be positioned sort of in line with the life line (as suggested by figure 5-d and the word 'straight') ... my aunt's hand does not meet this requirement. So according the Korean approach one should exclude the possibility of a 'broken' line variant

4) Now, then one could wonder whether the fate line represents an 'accessory' line next to the short life line. However, that would require the lines to run parallel... my aunt's hand at best only for a small part meets this requirement (because it is obvious that only a small part of the short life line runs with about half of the 3th part of the fate line). However, one has to become aware that it is actually quite natural for a fate line to run partly parallel to the lower part of the life line - which brings me to my final point 3!

5) Regarding the name 'sagittal crease', it is important to understand that it's name refers to the typical characteristic for this crease to 'divides' the ulnar side from the radial side and it tends to run toward the central finger (3th finger). Now, if we can take a look at the three parts of the fate line that can be distinguished in my aunt's hand:

- Part 1 clearly divides the ulnar side from the radial side of the palm and the lower part of the line runs towards the 3th finger; then the upper part sort of 'forks' (resulting in part 2 of the fate line) and then the line makes a slight turn towards the ring finger at; obviously this part one does not surround the thenar so it can not serve as representing the typical characteristic of a life line.

- Part 2 results from the 'forking' of part 1 (with a small 'break'), and it manifests kind of with the same characteristics as part 1.

- Part 3 results from the 'forking' of part 2 (with a small 'break'); the lower part runs towards the 3rd finger, and the upper part runs towards the zone between the 3rd and 2nd finger. Regarding part 3 one could question whether it is still dividing the ulnar zone of the palm from the radial zone of the palm, however... it is not uncommon at all that a fate runs in the upper half of the palm towards the 2nd finger (which is not even the case here) so this sort of shows that part 3 runs kind of within zone where one can expect to find a fate line. And finally this line appears to end just before the small island in the head line.


Now Patti, after giving you these 5 arguments from the work of Bali and the Korean article...do you have any other wishes/needs/requirements?


study

Thank you for your explanations! Thumbs up!

Regarding:

1) Fig. 9.7 2t is an example from a collection of Simian Crease Classifications. It does look like a short life line, but there is no longitudinal crease at all. Your aunt has a longitudinal crease. This example does not relate to the thenar crease or fate line at all. There is no support here for your aunt's life line.

The Sydney crease (Fig. 9.7 2t in "Anthropology of Crease Morphogenesis") plus a likely hypoplastic thumb with limited function makes a statement of its own. (see Fig. 5.9; Schaumann & Alter "Dermatoglyphics in Medical Disorders")


2) Agree the Korean article shows many locations for the life line to end. How does this support that the longitudinal crease is not a continuation of your aunt's life line?


3) I think the 'straight' description was in reference to the example in D. I'm sure there are other types/variations of breaks where both lines are straight or both curved, etc. The other more likely option is the Accessory crease.


4) And yes, your aunt's inner life line runs parallel to the outer life line where they overlap. The inner life line is also long enough to relate to an Accessory crease and obviously has enough life line characteristics to make you want to call it a life line all by itself.


5) Interesting, but I don't see how it shows that the longitudinal crease does not qualify as a life line. I think it serves double duty as a combined life and fate line. You agreed with Benham's words that the fate line takes over for a short life line and the fate line carries the life line energy as well.


-Charlotte Wolff refers to the fate line as the Long Longitudinal Line. In the example below she sees it as missing. ("The Human Hand")



-Noel Jaquin in "The Hand Speaks" shares this hand on page 81 and states "It is significant that there is practically no Fate line until some shadowy indications develop high above the Heart line."




-In "The Living Hand" by Sasha Fenton and Malcolm Wright page 76, there is an illustration kind of like your aunts in fig. 7.10. They also describe the fate line as taking over for the shortened life line. "...had the same formation of a foreshortened life line which seemed to end a the same age point; their fate lines then 'took over' from the life line."



-Lori Reid in "The Art of Hand Reading" states in regards to the short life line "Sometimes the fate line may do double duty and act as the new section of life line." (page 55) and on page 59 describes a long over lap in the life line and the new section in regards to timing, "If there is a long overlap between the first part of the life line and the new section, copy the gauge across at the point at which the new section begins."




So far I have not found or seen any solid support for viewing your aunt's longitudinal crease as only a fate line. Actually, there is greater support for a nearly missing fate line. Perhaps you could help support your viewpoint by presenting her other hand for comparison.

We can also just agree to disagree here, but I think you realize that basically you stand alone in your viewpoint with just Parender agreeing with you, yet he hasn't presented any reasoning for his agreement other than having no doubt.

wave

Patti

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:34 am

Patti wrote:...

5) Interesting, but I don't see how it shows that the longitudinal crease does not qualify as a life line. I think it serves double duty as a combined life and fate line. You agreed with Benham's words that the fate line takes over for a short life line and the fate line carries the life line energy as well.


Patti, I observe that a large part of your comments do not really consider the details that I have described in my 5 observations (regarding the scientific literature) that I have presented.

However, I will try to explain the key-elements in my 5 observations more precisely in order to help you understand the essence of my position (see especially point 4):


1 + 2: In my point 1 and point 2 I have only tried to describe that a 'short life line' is not unusual at all.

By the way, it certainly does not require a person to have malformed hand to have short life line - which is kind of the suggestion that you made with your reference to thumb abnormalities described by Schaumann & Alter.


3: In your response to my point 3 you allow your self to associate beyond the Korean approach. But please aware that you asked me to make reference to the scientific literature... so when I make reference to the scientific literature, it does not make sense to assume things that have not been described at all by the hose authors.


4: Regarding your feedback to point 4, I observe that made a fundamental mistake here:

Because you are suggesting that because in my aunt's case some parts of the two lines overlap... this would provide the basis to speak of an 'accessory line'.

However, you can not deny that we find such a characteristic in far most combinations of a life line and and fate line!!! So, regarding the use of the description of an 'accessory' line it is really essential to exclude the possibility that a line represents another type of line!

Because otherwise one would end up describing any firmly developed mars line as an 'accessory' life line, and one would end up describing any firmly developed girdle of venus as an accessory heart line.

(And by principle one could make likewise mistakes regarding the sun line and the fate line IF one does not recognize that the combination of location, path and direction of a line is always essential!)

So, it is really essential to consider all details of the full line - including: it's path & direction... and for this reason my point 5 is probably most essential:


5 - In point 5 have I refer to the scientific name of the fate line, which kind of relates to it's key-feature: I have described by detail how part 1 and part 2 display all typical characteristics of a fate line ... and none of the typical characteristics of a life line! Only for the 3th part one could argue that it shows some borderline characteristics - because some of those characteristics are also seen in the 3 overlapping life line examples in your post.

However, all three examples that you selected show a line which clearly 'curves' around the thenar... which makes those three example very different from my aunt's hand!

I consider the missing of any response to my detailed observations regarding each of the 3 line parts in the perspective of the key-function of a 'sagittal crease', kind of illustrative for your 'associative' approach - which does not really consider the many detailed observations that I have described for my aunt's hand.


Sorry Patti, even though you have presented a detailed picture... so far you have not shared ANY detailed descriptions/observations for each of the 3 individual part of the fate line... which I recognize as a missing key-element in your considerations.

And additionally, you have also not given any clue that you are aware of the fact that it is actually perfectly normal for a life line and a fate line to display some 'parallel' characteristics! (See the 'fundamental mistake' that I mentioned regarding your feedback on point 4)

And I hope you are aware that the combination of LOCATION, PATH, DIRECTION and STRUCTURE of any line is always essential for recognizing the true nature of any line!

(Unfortunately it now looks like that you somehow got more focused on the interpretation of details in the books, instead of studying & describing the details in my aunt's handprint)


Very Happy

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:09 pm

chakraborty wrote:Dear Martijn,

Can we summarize the arguments by various posters as follows - and would like your short answer to the points below (yes /No)

Regarding Life expectancy

1) Life line length is the ONLY factor (I personally do not agree with this)

2) Life line length is NOT a factor

3) Life Line length may be one of the few factors

____________________________________

To all experienced palm readers & researchers

Have you seen a long life in spite of having very short life line and NOT supported by either a overlapping long life line OR a FATE line which rises from centre of hand & close to wrist ? (Such a Fate line is supposed to provide support in the area where segment of Life line is missing - but I can not provide any reference to this statement)

The above is for learning purpose only.

regards

Chakraborty

Hello Chakraborty,

I would like to answer your 3 questions, but first I would like to describe how to evaluate the length of the life line in a sensible manner:

For a start, one should try to understand the hand as a 'system' where the individual features should never be interpreted in isolation.

Abnormalities in the life line often manifest as just an element in a larger constellation of hand abnormalities. And especially in people who have (genetic, physical or other) disabilities one will see such constellations.

Obviously, people with disabilities are more vulnerable than other people... and as a logical consequence the lifespan of those vulnerable people (with disabilities) is likely to become shorter than for perfectly healthy people.

So I think that any association between an early age of death and a short life line should be understood in this perspective - which implicates that the length of the life line itself does not represent a short life span at all... however, from a statistical point of one can expect that a short life line is slightly more common in people who die at an early age.


MY CONCLUSION :

The length of the life line in isolation from the rest of the hand should NOT be recognized as a factor indicative for the age of death.

However a short life line can be perceived as a significant 'clue' that could become meaningful in the perspective of other hand abnormalities (one can for example expect to find some kind of thumb-related abnormality). And because people with disabilities are kind of less likely to reach high age, this explains the correlation that is sometimes (not always) seen in a group of people - see the two studies that I mentioned in my article.

But this correlation between length of life line and age of death in a group of people, can not serve as a basis to describe the length of the life line in an individual as an indicative factor for the age of death.


MY ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTION:

1 - No (in my view life line length is certainly not the only factor)
2 - No (in my view life line length is close to 'not a factor', but I consider it higher than zero)
3 - No (in my view life line length can at best be one of many factors)


PS. I could argue here that the country where people live around the world is a much more indicative factor for the expected age of dead! For, statistical studies show that the average age of death varies very much between countries around the world. But it would be rather foolish to conclude that 'country' can predict the age of death in an individual!

(The same is kind of true reading the link between length of the life line and age of death: the link becomes visible when studying groups of people... but the link has very little value regarding predicting age of death in an individual)

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:35 pm


PS. This weekend I will start working on an update for my article about Cheiro's life line theory. The update will include a more clear guideline (+ a new perspective on the results of the scientific studies) for how to understand the length of the life line properly.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Patti on Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:36 pm

Thanks again Martijn for sharing your own viewpoints. We'll just leave it here with our different perspectives.
Thanks!

p.s. I'd have no problem whatsoever describing her conjoined fate/life line if I also could study both hands as requested several times.

Patti

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Parender on Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:20 pm

The attached palm print (the link):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72696129@N06/
is another example that resembles with the Martijn’s aunt’s palm as far as short Life Line is concerned. This picture and the person definitely disqualify the idea that the length of the life line shows the age of death or life span. Here, Life Line, Mars Line and Fate Line all are fairly clearer. This print is taken some 32 years ago when he was 30 and still living and enjoying life at the fullest. Short line of Life does not mean that the person will die early or he has a short span of life. Death is shown at other places on the palms too. Both palms must be studied to reach to a conclusion besides being studied in totality.
Now, don’t tell that longer line is Life line.
Enjoy!
Parender

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Patti on Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:04 pm

Thanks for sharing this Parender!

I guess you may know what my answer will be Wink but, I think Martijn will agree with you.

My reasoning for it qualifying as taking over for the life line is:

1) The life line should not cross the thenar mount where it is full and the thenar muscle bulges. The life line naturally surrounds the thenar muscle. The first short line is stopped as it does not move over the raised thenar mount.

2) The further out crease surrounds the thenar mount and thenar muscle.

3) This crease is also completely contained within the dermatoglyphic boundaries of the thenar mount. That being within the main lines from the t triradius.

4) It is the only longitudinal crease in the palm. The fate line is a minor crease. If there is only one longitudinal crease rising from the carpals and enclosing in some way the thenar mount it would be a major crease or become the major crease as it is the only crease.

5) The medical texts show that a stand alone short life line represents a malfunctioning of the thumb. If the thumb is not malfunctioning then the greater surrounding crease obviously serves as the thenar crease or life line. This is reinforced by the rule that the thenar crease does not cross the thenar muscle. So in the case like this one and Martijn's aunt, the greater surrounding crease serves as the thenar crease as it surrounds the thenar area.

Thanks!


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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:49 pm

Parender wrote:The attached palm print (the link):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72696129@N06/
is another example that resembles with the Martijn’s aunt’s palm as far as short Life Line is concerned. This picture and the person definitely disqualify the idea that the length of the life line shows the age of death or life span. Here, Life Line, Mars Line and Fate Line all are fairly clearer. This print is taken some 32 years ago when he was 30 and still living and enjoying life at the fullest. Short line of Life does not mean that the person will die early or he has a short span of life. Death is shown at other places on the palms too. Both palms must be studied to reach to a conclusion besides being studied in totality.
Now, don’t tell that longer line is Life line.
Enjoy!
Parender

Hi Parender,

Thanks for sharing your view about - nice to see a very experienced Indian palmist firmly confirming (with an example) that a short life line should not be taken as an indication for a short life span.

And yes, I would like to confirm your assessment for your hand print example - because the line representing the fate line is directed upward towards the index finger, and the head line also does not get any wider at the thumb side (which are all common characteristics seen in a fate line which stops at the head line).

Though I perceive this example as even a more 'tempting' example to describe why the fate line should not be taken to represent a part of the life line... because it does show a few more characteristics that also be associated with a life line - while in my aunt's hand print example such characteristics are missing in the first 2 parts.

(Which brings me back to my point that assessing such borderline-examples is kind of an arbitrary issue... which might partly explain why some palmists claim that the longevity life line theory gets confirmed in many cases - for, the 'opportunistic' palmist might fool himself over and over again by picking any arbitrary element in a sample of random elements in the hand)

But the essence is in this case as well that any line should be assessed for the combination of LOCATION, PATH, DIRECTION & STRUCTURE... and by principle the nature of a line does not depend on the characteristics of other lines - unless in for example the case of a simian line where certain requirements are described regarding the presence or absence of the heart line/head line, etc.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Patti on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Hand Surgery texts describe the thenar crease as defining the boundary between the thenar eminence and the hypothenar eminence. It is described as beginning above the wrist and partially encircling the thenar eminence.

The fate line relates to the hollowing of the hand, whereas the life line is related to the flexure of the thumb.


"Surgical Anatomy of the Hand" Schmidt - Lanz


http://chestofbooks.com/health/anatomy/Human-Body-Construction/Surface-Anatomy-Of-The-Hand.html


And the fate line.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3v8TAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=thenar+crease&source=bl&ots=rWz84VFOYB&sig=3nsVtctf5RdaUnFKfoS96IbJnlc&hl=en#v=onepage&q=thenar%20crease&f=false

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:12 pm

Patti wrote:
http://chestofbooks.com/health/anatomy/Human-Body-Construction/Surface-Anatomy-Of-The-Hand.html

Patti, thanks for presenting those quotes. But I wonder if they really attribute anything to your position.

For example, the quote above says:

"One longitudinal crease begins at the wrist between the thenar and hypothenar eminences to end on the radial side of the index finger, opposite the head of it's metacarpal bone."

From this description one can conclude that any fate line certainly does not meet the requirement regarding the radial side of the index finger (in the palm).

And I would like to notice here that by fact all fate line examples that we have discussed in this topic... do not meet this aspect of this rather general definition!


So, I have the impression that your thoughts regarding this quote probably got focused on the wrist-aspect of the definition... but did you also considered the consequences regarding the radial-aspect that is mentioned in this definition?

(Apparently you did not recognize yet that if we take this definition literally it actually presents a firm argument against your position in this discussion)

scratch


PS. Recently (2009) the thenar crease was defined as:

"One end of the thenar crease is typically coincident with the radial part of the proximal transverse crease and extends proximally toward the wrist."

(The report also presents the guideline that the thenar crease can be 'absence' or missing - not specified for what is exactly required to have this condition)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3224990/

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Lynn on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:32 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
For example, the quote above says:

"One longitudinal crease begins at the wrist between the thenar and hypothenar eminences to end on the radial side of the index finger, opposite the head of it's metacarpal bone."

From this description one can conclude that any fate line certainly does not meet the requirement regarding the radial side of the index finger (in the palm).

And I would like to notice here that by fact all fate line examples that we have discussed in this topic... do not meet this aspect of this rather general definition!


So, I have the impression that your thoughts regarding this quote probably got focused on the wrist-aspect of the definition... but did you also considered the consequences regarding the radial-aspect that is mentioned in this definition?

(Apparently you did not recognize yet that if we take this definition literally it actually presents a firm argument against your position in this discussion)

Isn't that definition talking about the lifeline (although I argue that it ends at the wrist rather than starting at the wrist).

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Patti on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:05 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
For example, the quote above says:

"One longitudinal crease begins at the wrist between the thenar and hypothenar eminences to end on the radial side of the index finger, opposite the head of it's metacarpal bone."

From this description one can conclude that any fate line certainly does not meet the requirement regarding the radial side of the index finger (in the palm).

And I would like to notice here that by fact all fate line examples that we have discussed in this topic... do not meet this aspect of this rather general definition!


So, I have the impression that your thoughts regarding this quote probably got focused on the wrist-aspect of the definition... but did you also considered the consequences regarding the radial-aspect that is mentioned in this definition?

(Apparently you did not recognize yet that if we take this definition literally it actually presents a firm argument against your position in this discussion)

Isn't that definition talking about the lifeline (although I argue that it ends at the wrist rather than starting at the wrist).

Yes Interestingly, I was reading about the life line in Spier's book last night and he described reading the life line from the bottom up as well as from the top down.

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:15 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
For example, the quote above says:

"One longitudinal crease begins at the wrist between the thenar and hypothenar eminences to end on the radial side of the index finger, opposite the head of it's metacarpal bone."

From this description one can conclude that any fate line certainly does not meet the requirement regarding the radial side of the index finger (in the palm).

And I would like to notice here that by fact all fate line examples that we have discussed in this topic... do not meet this aspect of this rather general definition!


So, I have the impression that your thoughts regarding this quote probably got focused on the wrist-aspect of the definition... but did you also considered the consequences regarding the radial-aspect that is mentioned in this definition?

(Apparently you did not recognize yet that if we take this definition literally it actually presents a firm argument against your position in this discussion)

Isn't that definition talking about the lifeline (although I argue that it ends at the wrist rather than starting at the wrist).

Yes, sure Lynn.

(That is why I pointed out that any fate line can not meet both requirements described that definition for a life line)

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Lynn on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:15 pm

Thanks for confirmation that I read/understood it correctly Patti.
Yes I think Julius Spier also read other lines in opposite directions.

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Lynn on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:28 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
For example, the quote above says:

"One longitudinal crease begins at the wrist between the thenar and hypothenar eminences to end on the radial side of the index finger, opposite the head of it's metacarpal bone."

From this description one can conclude that any fate line certainly does not meet the requirement regarding the radial side of the index finger (in the palm).

And I would like to notice here that by fact all fate line examples that we have discussed in this topic... do not meet this aspect of this rather general definition!


So, I have the impression that your thoughts regarding this quote probably got focused on the wrist-aspect of the definition... but did you also considered the consequences regarding the radial-aspect that is mentioned in this definition?

(Apparently you did not recognize yet that if we take this definition literally it actually presents a firm argument against your position in this discussion)

Isn't that definition talking about the lifeline (although I argue that it ends at the wrist rather than starting at the wrist).

Yes, sure Lynn.

(That is why I pointed out that any fate line can not meet both requirements described that definition for a life line)

Sorry Martijn, I haven't understood the point you are making. The quote seems to be describing the fact that we have lifeline, fate line, head line and heart line. I don't think anyone is saying the fate line meets requirements to be a lifeline? But sometimes the fate line 'takes over' and supports as a secondary line, or acts as an extension to, the lifeline.

Going back to the first post I made in this topic about your aunt's hands, I still have my thoughts "is the red line her lifeline or is it an extended line of mars? Is the green line her fate line or could it be her long lifeline (attached to headline for a long time...)."
Although I amend it by saying I agree with Patti & others (without reading back, I think it was Pravin) - it looks like the lower part of that long line is the fate line, but top part is lifeline coming out of headline. I haven't been able to follow your arguments against our thoughts. I see no reason why we couldn't be right about it.

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Lynn on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:02 am

chakraborty wrote:Dear Martijn,

Can we summarize the arguments by various posters as follows - and would like your short answer to the points below (yes /No)

Regarding Life expectancy

1) Life line length is the ONLY factor (I personally do not agree with this)

2) Life line length is NOT a factor

3) Life Line length may be one of the few factors

____________________________________

To all experienced palm readers & researchers

Have you seen a long life in spite of having very short life line and NOT supported by either a overlapping long life line OR a FATE line which rises from centre of hand & close to wrist ? (Such a Fate line is supposed to provide support in the area where segment of Life line is missing - but I can not provide any reference to this statement)

The above is for learning purpose only.

regards

Chakraborty

Hi Chakraborty, Sorry if this sounds facetious, actually I am being serious....
Regarding Life expectancy - if life expectancy could reliably be told from ANY features of the hand, just imagine how much work palmists would get from life insurance & pension companies! They would ask us to assess every applicant's risk. If any correlation between life expectancy and hand features could be proved, it would be a multi-million dollar industry...... we would all be rich! Razz

With regard to your second question, "Have you seen a long life in spite of having very short life line...." I have not read many hands of very elderly people. Recently I read my oldest client so far on her 90th birthday. (her lines were good).
But if you asked "have you seen a long lifeline on people who died before their 'three score years and ten' as the Bible says (= 70 years, tho these days our life expectancy is longer than that) - yes I have.

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:30 am

Lynn wrote:]
Sorry Martijn, I haven't understood the point you are making. The quote seems to be describing the fact that we have lifeline, fate line, head line and heart line. I don't think anyone is saying the fate line meets requirements to be a lifeline? But sometimes the fate line 'takes over' and supports as a secondary line, or acts as an extension to, the lifeline.

Going back to the first post I made in this topic about your aunt's hands, I still have my thoughts "is the red line her lifeline or is it an extended line of mars? Is the green line her fate line or could it be her long lifeline (attached to headline for a long time...)."
Although I amend it by saying I agree with Patti & others (without reading back, I think it was Pravin) - it looks like the lower part of that long line is the fate line, but top part is lifeline coming out of headline. I haven't been able to follow your arguments against our thoughts. I see no reason why we couldn't be right about it.

Lynn, my point is actually rather simple:

"One longitudinal crease begins at the wrist between the thenar and hypothenar eminences to end on the radial side of the index finger, opposite the head of it's metacarpal bone."

This passage basically only describes how to recognize a life line via it's termination points (one near the wrist and one 'on the radial side of the index finger' = between the thumb and index finger). There is nothing else in those words.

But the implication of this quote is that any of the fate lines that we have discussed in all examples presented in this topic, do not qualify for this description of the life line.

If we follow that quote precisely... simples! Wink


PS. By the way, your words indicate that you may not be aware that the positions that Patti took might not be the same as yours - though I am not really sure at all where your position exactly is, because in this post of you (from last year) you raised quite a few questions regarding my aunt's hand... without revealing your conclusions, etc:
http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p15-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#1313

In Patti's picture for my aunt's hand you can see that she does assess the fate line as a life line. And Patti also proposed that one of the scientific assessment approaches suggests that if only one line reaches the carpal/wrist zone of the palm... then it must be the life line! (But I had to reject Patt's interpretation of the study that she pointed at - because that assessment approach was not designed to point out the nature of any specific line at all).

I hope it is obvious for you that a lot of 'positions' have been discussed in this topic? The fate line in my aunt's hand for sure does not meet one of the two requirements described in that passage for a life line - because my aunt's line actually ends just below the head line or at the head line... and not at 'the radial side of the index finger', etc.

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Patti on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:38 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:]
Sorry Martijn, I haven't understood the point you are making. The quote seems to be describing the fact that we have lifeline, fate line, head line and heart line. I don't think anyone is saying the fate line meets requirements to be a lifeline? But sometimes the fate line 'takes over' and supports as a secondary line, or acts as an extension to, the lifeline.

Going back to the first post I made in this topic about your aunt's hands, I still have my thoughts "is the red line her lifeline or is it an extended line of mars? Is the green line her fate line or could it be her long lifeline (attached to headline for a long time...)."
Although I amend it by saying I agree with Patti & others (without reading back, I think it was Pravin) - it looks like the lower part of that long line is the fate line, but top part is lifeline coming out of headline. I haven't been able to follow your arguments against our thoughts. I see no reason why we couldn't be right about it.

Lynn, my point is actually rather simple:

"One longitudinal crease begins at the wrist between the thenar and hypothenar eminences to end on the radial side of the index finger, opposite the head of it's metacarpal bone."

This passage basically only describes how to recognize a life line via it's termination points (one near the wrist and one 'on the radial side of the index finger' = between the thumb and index finger). There is nothing else in those words.

But the implication of this quote is that any of the fate lines that we have discussed in all examples presented in this topic, do not qualify for this description of the life line.

If we follow that quote precisely... simples! Wink


PS. By the way, your words indicate that you may not be aware that the positions that Patti took might not be the same as yours - though I am not really sure at all where your position exactly is, because in this post of you (from last year) you raised quite a few questions regarding my aunt's hand... without revealing your conclusions, etc:
http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p15-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#1313

In Patti's picture for my aunt's hand you can see that she does assess the fate line as a life line. And Patti also proposed that one of the scientific assessment approaches suggests that if only one line reaches the carpal/wrist zone of the palm... then it must be the life line! (But I had to reject Patt's interpretation of the study that she pointed at - because that assessment approach was not designed to point out the nature of any specific line at all).

I hope it is obvious for you that a lot of 'positions' have been discussed in this topic? The fate line in my aunt's hand for sure does not meet one of the two requirements described in that passage for a life line - because my aunt's line actually ends just below the head line or at the head line... and not at 'the radial side of the index finger', etc.

scratch Oh...nooo! Laughing

But anyway... the most valuable words that you missed is that the life line or thenar crease forms the separation between the thenar and hypothenar eminences in the palm. The fate line does not have this role. Your aunt's longitudinal crease (double duty life and fate line) serves the purpose of forming a boundary between these two eminences. It is the only line in her palm to do so.


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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Lynn on Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:11 am

Martijn (admin) wrote: Lynn, my point is actually rather simple:

"One longitudinal crease begins at the wrist between the thenar and hypothenar eminences to end on the radial side of the index finger, opposite the head of it's metacarpal bone."

This passage basically only describes how to recognize a life line via it's termination points (one near the wrist and one 'on the radial side of the index finger' = between the thumb and index finger). There is nothing else in those words.

But the implication of this quote is that any of the fate lines that we have discussed in all examples presented in this topic, do not qualify for this description of the life line.

If we follow that quote precisely... simples! Wink


PS. By the way, your words indicate that you may not be aware that the positions that Patti took might not be the same as yours - though I am not really sure at all where your position exactly is, because in this post of you (from last year) you raised quite a few questions regarding my aunt's hand... without revealing your conclusions, etc:
http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t166p15-any-body-can-give-any-answer-for-this-length-life-line#1313

In Patti's picture for my aunt's hand you can see that she does assess the fate line as a life line. And Patti also proposed that one of the scientific assessment approaches suggests that if only one line reaches the carpal/wrist zone of the palm... then it must be the life line! (But I had to reject Patt's interpretation of the study that she pointed at - because that assessment approach was not designed to point out the nature of any specific line at all).

I hope it is obvious for you that a lot of 'positions' have been discussed in this topic? The fate line in my aunt's hand for sure does not meet one of the two requirements described in that passage for a life line - because my aunt's line actually ends just below the head line or at the head line... and not at 'the radial side of the index finger', etc.

I think we all agree that the fate line is not the same as the lifeline, but - do you agree that in some hands the fate line 'compensates' in some way for a weak lifeline?

Yes I am aware that Patti did not have exactly the same ideas as me (eg mars line), & I have some agreement with Patti & Pravin about the possibility of fate line taking over from lifeline. I am aware that various positions and possibilties have been described in this topic. It's just 'different ways of looking'. I am not too interested in the scientific studies posted in relation to this discussion (tho they are very useful to read, thanks Patti), but I am not sure they explain anything about your aunt's hand.
I don't have a stance/position/conclusion on this, I think they are all possible.

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Re: Any Body Can Give Any Answer For This (length life line)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:48 am

Lynn wrote:

I think we all agree that the fate line is not the same as the lifeline, but - do you agree that in some hands the fate line 'compensates' in some way for a weak lifeline?

...

Yes Lynn, I have already acknowledged a few times that that some prints confronted us in this topic with arbitrary issues (where one can argue into different directions).

And I also have referred to Benham's example no. 176 - Benham describes the example of a very short life line + a saturn line... but then he also explains how the saturn line can 'take up a part of the life line function', etc.

(I also described that I can relate to that idea, but I perceive it as an abstract consideration - because I don't like the idea at all that the length of a line... can become decisive regarding how to name another line - I have only seen a likewise approach in the Korean article about the Suwon crease regarding the definition of an 'accessory' crease; but I don't think that one can apply such principles in a sensible matter in the perspective that we are talking here about)

However, Benham does not start any process of changing the name of a line etc.

(Which might explain why Patti sort of put that Benham example aside by saying that Benham's example is represents only his 'opinion'; which made me decide stop talking about that example... until now)


I think this answers your question.
Thanks for asking!


Thanks!

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