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Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:04 pm

tap wrote:Martijn

Could you just varify for me that on you web site, for water, the 2nd criterium is correct?

Thanks!

Thanks Tap,

Yes there was a mistake included in that criterium (and inside the 2nd criterium for the fire hand as well: 'finger length' is now replaced for palm breadth). But these errors have now been corrected.


wave

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  tap on Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:21 pm

Yes there was a mistake included in that criterium (and inside the 2nd criterium for the fire hand as well: 'finger length' is now replaced for palm breadth). But these errors have now been corrected.

scratch Martijn I am not getting that at all. How could palm breadth for fire fall inbetween .75 and .80?

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:31 pm

tap wrote:
Yes there was a mistake included in that criterium (and inside the 2nd criterium for the fire hand as well: 'finger length' is now replaced for palm breadth). But these errors have now been corrected.

scratch Martijn I am not getting that at all. How could palm breadth for fire fall inbetween .75 and .80?

Tap, you didn't read the requirements properly. Because it says:

"2) Fire criterium 2: 0.75 < (palm breadth versus palm length ratio) < 0.80 "

So, this criterium relates to the ratio: pb/pl ... and not just 'palm breadth' (= pb)!

Simples! wave


PS. Your questions are welcome. Do not hestitate to ask question, because it might help me to improve the presentation of these guidelines!


EDIT:

PPS. Tap, I found these results for your (corrected) hand dimensions (right hand: fl = 7.8, pb = 7.9, pl = 10.0; left hand: fl = 7.7, pb = 7.5, pl = 10.0):

- Your right hand meets both requirements for 'FIRE hand shape' => Result:: FIRE hand shape;
- and your left hand meets the 1st requirement for AIR hand shape + borderline 2nd requirement for 'FIRE hand shape' / 'WATER hand shape'... however because your hand is for the first criterium much closer to FIRE than WATER, it make sense to pick FIRE (and not WATER) => Resulting: AIR/FIRE hand shape


EDIT 2:

By the way, I have just also checked your first measurements: these would also result in AIR/FIRE hand shape!

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  tap on Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:55 pm

Alright Martijn

Still not getting it. It looked like the 2nd criterion for all the hands shapes was basically determining whether or not the finger to palm length ratio fell into the standards set for each handshape.

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:57 pm

Sorry Tap... I have to report now that there is still something not correct in the criteria that I have presented right now.

I need some more time... it appears that the moderation that I just made was not correct.


PS. This probably implicates that every hand shape has 3 requirements (like is described by my picture), and not just 2 (which I suggested with the formula).

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:25 pm

Problem solved, but now I have to upload the 3th criteria... which takes little time.

But I also have describe new guidelines for how to make an evaluation - this takes more time again.

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  tap on Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:25 pm

Martijn
It might be the formulas for criterion 1, may need to be looked at.

fire and air may need to be made more specific

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:02 pm

tap wrote:Martijn
It might be the formulas for criterion 1, may need to be looked at.

fire and air may need to be made more specific

No, criterium works just fine.

By the way, I have uploaded now the new criteria - which implicates that you can try to assess you hands for each of the three criteria.


Tap, you will find then for your hands that your right hand meets 2x the requirement for FIRE hand shape + 1x the requirement for EARTH hand shape.

This results in the classification FIRE hand shape for your right hand (because if 2 or 3 requirements are met for a specific hand shape... that specific hand shape represents the shape of your hand). This is also confirmed by the fact that the 'finger coordinates' for your right hand are inside the red zone...!

By the way, this also implicates that you do not have a 'pure' FIRE hand shape - because that would require you to meet all 3 requirements.


Tap, regarding your left hand... you will find out with these new guidelines that your left hand shape is a mix of al 4 elements... thinking out loud: I think we can see this in the picture because the 'finger coordinates' for your left hand are found exactly on the purple line in the quadrant where none of the 4 'pure' hand shapes are foundI!!)

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:25 pm


Well, the guidelines now work for identifying hands that can be described with one hand shape only.... however, the guidelines do not work for hands that meet requirements that relate to 3 different hand shapes (I am talking about 'mixed' hands).

Unfortunately, for those hands it is probably really required to consider my guidelines in the picture for finding the 'shape profile', and then it also requires to use the full profile... instead of just counting the elements!


nail biting Now that I have recognzied that this is the situation, I might better present the criteria in another format - just to make it more easy to find the 'shape' formula.

(Sorry, I have to think over again about how to get there... thinking )

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Lynn on Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:29 pm

I've only got as far as the first criteria for fire.
1) Fire requirement 1: FL > PB

sorry to see it doesn't fit in with the system I was taught, given standard classic fire handshape (measured across centre of palm) = 10 PL x 8 PB x 7.5 FL

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Lynn on Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:38 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Well, the guidelines now work for identifying hands that can be described with one hand shape only.... however, the guidelines do not work for hands that meet requirements that relate to 3 different hand shapes (I am talking about 'mixed' hands).

Unfortunately, for those hands it is probably really required to consider my guidelines in the picture for finding the 'shape profile', and then it also requires to use the full profile... instead of just counting the elements!


Now that I have recognzied that this is the situation, I might better present the criteria in another format - just to make it more easy to find the 'shape' formula.

(Sorry, I have to think over again about how to get there... )

You're working hard on this!
I'm not sure how you can have a hand that relates to 3 different hand shapes? Two elements in handshape is enough for purposes of classification & doing readings. If it came into Johnny's 'undifferentiated' category, then there is nothing to say about it in readings. I know your focus isn't on doing readings. Just wondering if you are making it too complicated.

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:45 pm

Lynn wrote:I've only got as far as the first criteria for fire.
1) Fire requirement 1: FL > PB

sorry to see it doesn't fit in with the system I was taught, given standard classic fire handshape (measured across centre of palm) = 10 PL x 8 PB x 7.5 FL

Hi Lynn,

Sorry, there were quite a few typo-mistakes in the earlier version(s) that I presented today. By the way, that requirement (fl > pb) did not follow the requirements in my picture.... because that would not make sense at all.


Anyway, the guidelines for FIRE hand shape are now (conform the guidelines in my picture):

"FINGER LENGTH & PALM SHAPE REQUIREMENTS
FOR FIRE HAND SHAPE!

A 'pure' FIRE hand shape has a FIRE SHAPE CODE: + | ++ | -

1) FIRE requirement F1: 0.93xPB < FL < PB [SHAPE CODE F1 = +]
2) FIRE requirement F2: FL/PL < 0.75 [SHAPE CODE F2 = ++]
3) FIRE requirement F3: 0.75 < PB/PL < 0.80 [SHAPE CODE F3 = -]

[FL = finger lenght, PB = palm breadth, PL = palm length]


After finding the SHAPE CODE for a hand you can compare it with the typical FIRE SHAPE CODE: + | ++ | - "



Maybe you can try to apply those guidelines to your hands? You should find for both hands that your 'shape profile' is: - | + | -

And if you then compare this code with the typical code for the elemental hand shapes, then you will probably recognize that you have a mix of FIRE and AIR:

- EARTH HAND SHAPE PROFILE = ++ | + | ++
- FIRE HAND SHAPE PROFILE = + | ++ | -
- AIR HAND SHAPE PROFILE = - | -- | +
- WATER HAND SHAPE PROFILE = -- | - | --

When you look at the details, you can that you have 1 match with AIR (first aspect), one match with EARTH (second aspect), and one match with FIRE (third aspect).

However... because your profile has 2 contradictions with EARTH as well, therefore the EARTH-match can be ignored because your shape profile has far too many '-' signs to be associated with EARTH hand shape.

This leaves only the option of a FIRE/AIR hand shape combination for both of your hand! cheers


(Yes Lynn, I have been working hard in order to get all details work together. But now I have almost arrived where I wanted to get. PS. In my guidelines I still have to describe the approach regarding the contradictive signs in the shape profile for a hand... but I will take care of that soon!)

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Lynn on Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:16 pm

I am quite good at maths, but it still seems too complicated!

(by the way Martijn, I didn't say I have fire/air hands. I said I have standard fire palm with fingers slightly longer than standard fire hand shape, which adds a little air. Basically my handshape is more fire than air in the system I use.)

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:23 pm

Lynn wrote:I am quite good at maths, but it still seems too complicated!

(by the way Martijn, I didn't say I have fire/air hands. I said I have standard fire palm with fingers slightly longer than standard fire hand shape, which adds a little air. Basically my handshape is more fire than air in the system I use.)

Lynn, if you look in the picture you'll see that you 'finger coordinates' are indeed positioned closest to the red zone - which shows that the FIRE aspect in your mix is dominant.

By the way, I have percantages available as well for your hands:

- Right hand: 42% FIRE + 8% AIR
- Left hand: 42% FIRE, 8% AIR


PS. These percentages result from an analysis for you 'shape profile' compared to the FIRE SHAPE PROFILE and the AIR SHAPE PROFILE

(EDIT: I described my method regarding the percentages earlier in this discussion as a point counting system - but these are not featured in my article. And since I doubt whether percentages could become useful for any practical purpose, I haven't planned to share those in my article).

PPS. The maths are not complex, but I agree that I better withdraw my idea that this method is like 'child's play' (I was too optimist about that yesterday, after I thought that it should be possible to described each hand with just 2 requirements).

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:53 pm

Lynn wrote:...

(by the way Martijn, I didn't say I have fire/air hands. I said I have standard fire palm with fingers slightly longer than standard fire hand shape, which adds a little air. Basically my handshape is more fire than air in the system I use.)

Yes Lynn, I understand what you are saying here. And my method indicates that fire is dominant for your 'mixed' hand shape.

For, if we compare your SHAPE PROFILE (- | + | -) with the FIRE & AIR SHAPE PROFILES:

- FIRE SHAPE PROFILE = + | ++ | -
- AIR SHAPE PROFILE = - | -- | +

... then we can see that it takes only 2 steps (and the correction of just one contradiction) to get the FIRE SHAPE PROFILE; however, it takes 3 steps to get the AIR SHAPE PROFILE (including the correction of 2 contradictions).


However, I would say that according the C.S. principles your hand can not be described as a FIRE hand shape. Because your fingers are not short at all, and your palm shape is slightly more wide than long - afterall Lynn... how can we describe your palm as 'long' in the perspective of the fact that you have the long fingers???

(Because according the C.S. perspective you define finger length in the perspective of palm length only)


However, my approach indicates that if the 3 dimensions (fl, pb and pl) are considered together in your hands, the combination leaves no other option than that your hands most resemble a FIRE hand shape (despite that your fingers are slightly long and your palm is slightly short - because of the long fingers).


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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Lynn on Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:07 pm

thanks for your explanation Martijn. I will study your method in more detail when I get time.

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:52 pm


... I have just added another picture to my article which visually describes the essential differences among the 'SHAPE PROFILES' of the 4 hand types.

Lynn, you might want use the picture to compare your SHAPE PROFILE ( - | + | - ) with the 4 elemental profiles;

- EARTH PROFILE:
1 match, 2 large contradictions (my point system says: 0 points = 0%)
- FIRE PROFILE:
1 match, 1 small contradiction (my point system says: 2.5 points = 42%)
- AIR PROFILE:
1 match, 1 large contradiction, 1 small contradiction (my point system says: 0.5 point = 8%)
- WATER PROFILE:
0 matches, 1 small contradiction (my point system says: 1.5 points = 25%)

So, FIRE is indeed by far the most dominant element for your hands. But one can for sure not speak of a 'pure' fire hand... because of the percentage below 50% + the small contradiction regarding the typical FIRE profile and your slightly wide palm breadth.

But since the percentages for AIR is much lower, and WATER is not high either (and WATER has not match at all), one could argue that your hand can still best be described as a FIRE hand shape. But one could also argue for 'mixed hand shape' dominated by FIRE.

(I guess a discussion about Johnny's small photo examples could help me to focus my thoughts regarding how to describe the difference between a 'mixed' hand shape and a hand shape dominant for one element. Regarding a 'pure' hand shape... I would [prefer to put the standard pretty high: by adding the requirement of matches for all 3 aspects in the 'shape profile' => which results in a 100% score for the element involved, and 0% scores for the other elements!)



[FL = finger length, PB = palm breadth, PL = palm length]

NOTICE: These profiles fit with the details that I have presented in my picture that presents the refined definition for the 4 hand shapes + the elemental axes (see the picture below).


When making a complete hand shape assessment for one hand - by composing a SHAPE PROFILE - one can look for:

- 'matches' with the elemental shape profiles
- likewise 'dynamics' inside the shape profiles
- 'contradictions'.

Then it will become quite easy to find out which of the 4 elemental hand shapes is most dominant in the hand - even when the hand can best be described as a 'mixed' hand shape!



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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Lynn on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:20 pm

Martijn, sorry I am still far behind in this discussion. Thank you for keeping us informed at every stage of your thought processes, it is fascinating to see how you've formulated all this. (and thanks for using my hand as an example which makes it easier for me to follow your thoughts!). Even tho there are parts I don't understand, or even parts I disagree with, I thank you for putting all this time and effort into understanding elemental handshapes and trying to find a formula. If it works, it will be an amazing piece of study & research. (even if it is difficult to put into practise in readings).

PS (edit) - I am happy to help you go through Johnny's photos if it helps to focus your thoughts.


Last edited by Lynn on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : mistake)

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:43 pm

Lynn wrote:I am quite good at maths, but it still seems too complicated!

(by the way Martijn, I didn't say I have fire/air hands. I said I have standard fire palm with fingers slightly longer than standard fire hand shape, which adds a little air. Basically my handshape is more fire than air in the system I use.)

Lynn, I have a question for you to answer:

Can you explain with a few arguments/details to my why you consider your palm as 'more fire than air'?

(I have been wondering about this for quite a while, because when I use the C.S. principles one could argue: because your fingers are slightly long, this implicates that your palm must be slightly short. And then in order to have a fire palm shape (combined with slightly short palm length)... I think that would require your palm to be just below medium to slightly narrow. But the thing is, that your hand dimensions indicate that you palm breadth is actually wide compared to both finger length (FL/PL = '-') AND palm length (PB/PL = '-')... which I would associate with air. So, therefore I would be interested to hear you explain a little bit more why you perceive your palm as 'more fire than air'. I hope this request makes sense?)

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:44 pm

PPS (edit) - I am happy to help you go through Johnny's photos if it helps to focus your thoughts.
[/color][/quote]

Great, then I will scan the pictures from his book for us to work with. Thanks!

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Lynn on Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:14 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Lynn, I have a question for you to answer:

Can you explain with a few arguments/details to my why you consider your palm as 'more fire than air'?

(I have been wondering about this for quite a while, because when I use the C.S. principles one could argue: because your fingers are slightly long, this implicates that your palm must be slightly short. And then in order to have a fire palm shape (combined with slightly short palm length)... I think that would require your palm to be just below medium to slightly narrow. But the thing is, that your hand dimensions indicate that you palm breadth is actually wide compared to both finger length (FL/PL = '-') AND palm length (PB/PL = '-')... which I would associate with air. So, therefore I would be interested to hear you explain a little bit more why you perceive your palm as 'more fire than air'. I hope this request makes sense?)

OK it's a good question.
I think there is some historical reason for this, going back to the seminar I went to about handshape. When I look at my hand dimensions written down around 1996, I have palm length 10cm, palm width (measuring across centre of palm, half way up) 8cm. earth finger 8cm. ie classic fire shape palm, with 'medium' fingers. (I only have one set of measurements, probably right hand). This translates as standard fire shape palm with slightly longer fingers than fire shape hand (which adds a little air).
I realise that recently I have given you different measurements, ie palm being 1 - 2 mm longer and width being 2 - 3 mm shorter (measured across metacarpals instead of centre of palm).

On a personal & holistic level (taking other areas of the hand into account) I am open to your idea about it being a matter of perception, because the air element is the one I most lack confidence in. (but over-all fire is my weakest element!).

Please explain - because your fingers are slightly long, this implicates that your palm must be slightly short.
If my fingers are slightly long in relation to length of palm, how can this imply that my palm length is short?

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:25 am


Hi Lynn,

Here are the photo examples from Johnny's book.

Before we start making an assessment for those hands, I have featured each photo with a small dot representing the central location at the distal wrist crease and the crease connecting the 3th finger with the palm.

Would you first mind to check if we agree about those locations?

(Maybe it might be an idea to check the those locations as well from your copy of Johnny's book)


Then, if we agree about those locations, I would suggest that you make an assessment of the hand shape - and I will start making my assessment... and afterwards we can see what the results are, etc.)



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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Patti on Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:13 am

So if Lynn's hand is 42% Fire and 25% Water and only 0% Earth with 8% Air - it comes out to Fire/Air in Martijn's percentage system
and to Fire/Air in Lynn's perspective
but sure looks like Fire/Water in the calculations
and Fire/Water in the definition of long palm, long fingers - only it's too wide for water.
Then if Fire/Water doesn't exist in reality... something must be off here... scratch
and why not add up to 100% rather than 75% thinking

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:21 am

Lynn wrote:...

Please explain - because your fingers are slightly long, this implicates that your palm must be slightly short.
If my fingers are slightly long in relation to length of palm, how can this imply that my palm length is short?

Lynn, I think this is only the logical consequence of how 'finger length' is defined in the C.S. system.

Because I observe that according the books and according your perception, in the C.S. system finger length is always assessed in the perspective of 'palm length' only.

So, if fingers are short... according the guidelines that can only be the result of the length of the palm - which should be long (in the perspective of finger length). And if fingers are long, according the guidelines in your system it appears to me that this can only be the result of the palm being short (relative to finger length again).

I could say that it appear to me that in the C.S. approach you have been guided to use relative measures only.


Thanks for describing the history of how you developed your perception. But for me it is a bit funny how you have used only two aspects of your point of reference regarding the typical fire hand PROPORTIONS (which you described earlier this week to be: 7.5 - 8 - 10).

Because, I would assume here that a typical fire palm does not display the same dimensions of a medium palm. For, if that had been the case then a fire palm could also have been described as: just a normal palm (featured with short fingers).

However, the fire palm is described as an oblong palm (Fincham) / large rectangle palm (Dukes)... and for me this makes sense.

But the logical consequence for me that one can not use the typical fire palm proportions... without considering those in the perspective of finger length.


However, I do realize that... IF you have been told that a medium hand can be described as having the typical PROPORTIONS 8 - 8 -10, then I would understand why you assumed that you have typical fire palm dimensions.

But if nobody has described any typical PROPOTIONS for a medium palm... then I can inform you that according my sense for logics regarding the C.S. guidelines (I hope you allow my to make such a point) + the results of my study... I would point out that your hands do not show the typically large palm-ratios that are seen in the proportional guidelines for a fire hand shape.

Because in the sequence 7.5 - 8 - 10... the last two numbers have a much higher ratios (in respective: +6.6% and + 33%) compared to the finger length. Because in both of your hands those ratios are completely different (-2.5% and + 28%).


PS. In this perspective I think it is interesting to hear you saying that you consider fire as overall your 'weakest element'. But that could substantiate my perception regarding the option... that the dimensions of your hand (with metacarpal palm breadth) indicate that your hand shape can very well be described as a 'mix'... with fire representing the dominant element (in a mix with air).

And I think this is actually supported by the principle that your relatively long fingers give a touch of 'air'... however, in the perspective of your palm breadth only! Because in the perspective of your palm length your fingers are by far not long enough to be associated with air, nor with water.

If this still does not make sense for you, it would be interesting to hear from your where my observations gets off-track... Smile


Anyway Lynn, thank you for sharing this + thank you for answering my question!


Thumb up + Thanks!

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:48 am

Patti wrote:So if Lynn's hand is 42% Fire and 25% Water and only 0% Earth with 8% Air - it comes out to Fire/Air in Martijn's percentage system
and to Fire/Air in Lynn's perspective
but sure looks like Fire/Water in the calculations
and Fire/Water in the definition of long palm, long fingers - only it's too wide for water.
Then if Fire/Water doesn't exist in reality... something must be off here... scratch
and why not add up to 100% rather than 75% thinking

Hi Patti... wave

Sorry, only Earth and Water can not make a combination in reality (not Fire/Water).

And regarding the percentages, these do not take into account whether there are any matches between Lynn's hand and the typical proportions of the elemental hand shapes.

(I have described that because there are no 'matches' between Lynn's hand and the proportions that are typical for Water... that could indicate that the percentage for Water becomes quite irrelevant. But it is hard for me to make such permanent conclusions because I have not yet found a clear point of reference to make such conclusions. Therefore I have invited Lynn to discuss the photo hand examples for the 4 elements in Johnny's book: I hope these will provide some materials to make conclusion regarding which approach can best be used to discriminate 'pure' hand shapes from 'mixed' hand shapes... and who knows, maybe we can identify even a category in between... thinking )


By the way, Lynn mentioned in one of her latest posts this evening:

"Martijn, I didn't say I have fire/air hands"


Regarding the 75%, I think we should try to understand this in the spective of a typical 'medium' hand shape... which does not show any typical combinations, and therefore scores no points for any of the 4 dimensions (only negative points). So, the closer the hand proportions resemble the medium hand shape (in my perspective it has the 'magical numbers': 8 | 8 | 10 | 0.8 - see my picture),... the lower the total percentage will get (this is because I do not translate 'negative points' into a percentage, etc.).


PS. So, the percentages are just kind of an experiment at this stage. Basically, I am being confronted with a problem regarding some of the ink prints - however, since are not sure about those dimensions... it's kind of hard for me to judge the implications. This is one of the reasons why I would like to continue the discussion via Johnny's hand examples.

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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