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Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:58 pm


thinking Tap... by the way, I would not be surprised at all if you wonder about the purpose of using percentages.

My answer here would be that the percentages ARE are significant, because low percentages indicate that the 'finger coordinates' are near the typical MEDIUM hand shape proportions.

So, I could say any mixed hand shape combination with HIGH percentages can be more associated with the typical features of the two elements involved. While any mixed hand shape combination with LOW percentages... indicate that influence of the elements is not very high!

I hope this all makes sense?


PS. Please, do not hesitate to ask questions if necessary... because I think I am now ready to provide simple answers! Very Happy

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  tap on Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:31 pm

Ok thanks Martijn for calculating all of that.

CONCLUSION FOR HAND 1 & HAND 2:

- Hand 1: mix of EARTH hand shape (67%) + FIRE hand shape (42%)
- Hand 2: EARTH hand shape (83%)

Now at least I know I was correct with earth, but I did have the fire part wrong. The combinations seem more difficult. So since once you get past hand shape you take into consideration the other aspects of the hand, knowing the initial percentages from handshape I believe help as you move on analyzing the hand.
I still think a chart would be good for a beginner. Thanks!

PS I think what I should have done is just looked at hand 2 as classic Earth (fingers being at 75%) and hand 1 as having more fire since the fingers are shorter. It was in the beginning and quite confusing then for me confused

The chart gives a good visual and maybe enough to figure out rough percents, (doing the calculations may end up being an option for some lol! ) but the closer in you get to the center the harder it is to figure out without the calculations, unless you fall directly on a line. I didn't think earth and fire were as far apart as the calculations showed for hand 2 (83% earth). Maybe a chart that shows just more of the center area with grid lines and another chart that shows further out would be good. scratch

PPS Ok the chart up closer would be good, but I do see why I had hand 2 on earth/fire and could not figure out the 83% earth on the chart (but I did know that the percents were more varied than hand 1). I plotted both hands on your first chart with a small section for mixed hand shapes first. On that chart hand 2 was almost in the mixed hand section for earth/fire and when I transferred them over to the new chart (which printed smaller so the grid lines that I put on it were sort of a mess and had already put dots all over the place) I just more or less placed it on but at the same angle (following the purple line like it was the other green boarder line) as the first chart. Oh...nooo! So yes I see how it can be 83% earth for hand 2 even without the chart being larger. sunny Where is the idiot icon? (Although I really am starting to question any air in my hand shape.)


Last edited by tap on Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:51 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : ps)

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:25 am


Yes Tap,

I fully understand your request to get more details in the chart. And I will start working on that very soon!

By the way, I have a - again - a new chart available: see below.

In this new chart I have presented the essential characteristics of the 4 hand shapes much more clearly than I did in the chart that I presented earlier today.

For example, I have now been able to re-define the 4 hand shape types with a much more clear description than you have ever seen before, and I think the brand new 'hand shape profiles' also make sense:

I'll give you here the description for the EARTH HAND SHAPE only, and I would like to ask you to study your 2 hand examples one more time with this new definition:

- EARTH HAND SHAPE: Short fingers + broad large palm; 'shape profile': ++ | + | ++

(Tap, let me explain this 'shape profile':

The first '++' indicates that pb/fl ratio is in the earth hand the highest of all hand shapes! The second '+' indicates that the pl/fl ratio is in the earth hand high, but not as high as seen in the fire hand... which has the '++' for this aspect. And finally the last '++' indicates that in the earth hand the pb/pl ratio is the highest of all hand shapes!


NOTICE: All 4 hand shapes show extremities on at least one aspect, and in the earth hand and fire hand the extremities are seen in 2 aspects... which explains why those 2 hand shapes are the only combinations that can never be found in any mix of hand shapes for one single hand! (Fascinating stuff... !!!)


Tap, I have checked your 2 hand examples again with this new definitions (which is based on the info in my chart), and surprisingly... it appears now that both of your hand examples almost perfectly match with this new description for the earth hand shape!

Would you mind to take a closer loop at how I defined the 'shape profile' in the picture below?

(I think both of your hand examples have the finger formula: ++ | ++ | +... and if you look at the 'earth hand shape shape profile', you will probably immediately notice the similarities... because there is not one '-' sign visible, which is very typical for the earth hand shape!!)

Thanks!

PS. Regarding the percentages that I mentioned for you examples, I should have said that the 2nd examples also has a percentage of 25% for the fire hand shape - however this percentage becomes quite irrelevant because the earth hand shape has a score 3 times higher.

(Thanks for sharing your thoughts regarding the percentages! By the way, at the end these percentages combined with the 'finger profiles' will probably give me the opportunity to include in the chart where the typical border for mixed hand types start and end! Smile )




___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  tap on Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:30 pm

Okay Martijn I will look for your new chart, but I was able to read the last chart you did fine, with out glasses (I have been called blind before).

I went through the calculations and I have found my hand type

right hand / fire mixed with air (7.7 - 7.9 - 10)
difference to elements profiles : Earth:2.2, Fire:1.1, Air: 1.8, Water 2.4

left hand / fire ( 7.6 - 7.5 - 10)
difference to elements profiles : Earth:2.4, Fire: .6, Water :2.1, Air 2.3


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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:27 pm

Hi Tap,

I have now included more colors in the picture: the 'coloured zones' show the zones where the typical hand shapes are found, and the other zones show where the mixed types show up!

cheers

PS. Your earlier measurments for your hands (R: fl = 7.8, pb = 7.9, pl = 10; L: fl = 7.7, pb = 7.5, pl = 9.9) make that your proportions + 'shape profiles' are:

Proportion formula right hand: 8 | 8.1 | 10.3 | (0.79) => shape profile: + | + | -
Proportion formula left hand: 8 | 7.8 | 10.3 | (0.76) => shape profile: - | + | -


And then you can see that the shape profile for you right hand is almost equal to the typical shape profile for a FIRE hand shape (which is: + | ++ | -), which shows why your right hand is a FIRE hand shape variant (83% FIRE hand shape).

And if you now take a look at the picture, you can see that the coordinates for your right hand (fl/pb = 0.987; fl/pl = 7.8 )... then you will see that those are indeed inside the RED zone!

(So, I think something went wrong with you calculated the proportions for each element; because I arrive for your right hand at the following percentages: EARTH = 33%, FIRE = 83%, AIR = 0%, WATER = 0%; the percentage for earth is irrelevant because for FIRE you have 2 matches in your shape profile + your shape profile is very typical for a fire hand)

Maybe you can now try to figure out why you LEFT HAND can be described as a mix of fire (42%) and air (8%)



___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:34 pm


happy move ... And after adding the colors in the zones, I think it is much more obvious that this new (detailed) model for recognizing the elemental hand shapes does follow Lynn's principles as well!

And we can now also recognize immediately from the pictures that some of the hand examples that were presented by the authors in their books... may not have been the best choices (because E1, W1 and F3 are inside the 'mix' zones... though they are in the most likely 'mix' zone for the element involved - so in a way even those examples make sense for sure!).


(Looking forward to see her response after this weekend!!!)


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

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sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  tap on Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:42 pm

Martijn I will look at this new chart later. I am posting up what I did before corrected. Because everytime I measure my hand it is off by 1 sometimes 2 cms. I don't know why. This is the last time I am remeasuring them and this is what I arrived at:

Right hand
Finger length 7.8
Palm width 7.9
Palm length 10
Finger length to palm length ratio: 7.8 / 10.0 =78 = proportion 7.8
Palm breadth to palm length ratio: 7.9 / 10.0 = 79 = proportion 7.9
Finger length to palm width ratio: 7.8 / 7.9 = .99 =proportion 9.9
right hand fire/air (7.7 - 7.9 – 9.75)
difference to elements profiles : Earth 2.30, Fire: 1.10, Air: 1.80, Water: 2.40

Left hand
Finger length 7.7
Palm width 7.5
Palm length 10
Finger length to palm length ratio: 7.7 / 10.0 =77 = proportion 7.7
Palm breadth to palm length ratio: 7.5 / 10.0 = 75 = proportion 7.5
Finger length to palm width ratio: 7.7 / 7.5 = 1.02 =proportion 10.0
Left hand fire (7.7 – 7.5 – 10.0)
difference to elements profiles : Earth: 2.2, Fire: .7, Air: 2.2, Water: 2.0

I am not sure if it is correct or not. I really should not be working on this now( because my 17 year dog has been seizuring the last couple of days and we will probably need to put her to sleep )so I will look at everything later.

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:48 pm

tap wrote:Martijn I will look at this new chart later. I am posting up what I did before corrected. Because everytime I measure my hand it is off by 1 sometimes 2 cms. I don't know why. This is the last time I am remeasuring them and this is what I arrived at:

Right hand
Finger length 7.8
Palm width 7.9
Palm length 10
Finger length to palm length ratio: 7.8 / 10.0 =78 = proportion 7.8
Palm breadth to palm length ratio: 7.9 / 10.0 = 79 = proportion 7.9
Finger length to palm width ratio: 7.8 / 7.9 = .99 =proportion 9.9
right hand fire/air (7.7 - 7.9 – 9.75)
difference to elements profiles : Earth 2.30, Fire: 1.10, Air: 1.80, Water: 2.40

Left hand
Finger length 7.7
Palm width 7.5
Palm length 10
Finger length to palm length ratio: 7.7 / 10.0 =77 = proportion 7.7
Palm breadth to palm length ratio: 7.5 / 10.0 = 75 = proportion 7.5
Finger length to palm width ratio: 7.7 / 7.5 = 1.02 =proportion 10.0
Left hand fire (7.7 – 7.5 – 10.0)
difference to elements profiles : Earth: 2.2, Fire: .7, Air: 2.2, Water: 2.0

I am not sure if it is correct or not. I really should not be working on this now( because my 17 year dog has been seizuring the last couple of days and we will probably need to put her to sleep )so I will look at everything later.

Hi Tap,

Sorry, something went wrong. I think you tried to compare your proportions values directly to the values in my pictures... but that is not what I described (but I will explain your mistake below).

By the way, it might be a bit confusing that yesterday I first presented a proportion-method based on 'palm length' fixed at 10, and then I later changed it into 'finger length' fixed 8.

So, please ignore the older pictures for finding your ratio!



Tap, you started for your right hand with:

"Right hand
Finger length 7.8
Palm width 7.9
Palm length 10
Finger length to palm length ratio: 7.8 / 10.0 =78 = proportion 7.8
Palm breadth to palm length ratio: 7.9 / 10.0 = 79 = proportion 7.9
Finger length to palm width ratio: 7.8 / 7.9 = .99 =proportion 9.9"


(This looks alright to me... however, it's a mystery how you then came to the "right hand fire/air (7.7 - 7.9 – 9.75)")


Tap, please use the new picture... because all details in that picture make so much more sense!

Using the new picture (which I presented yesterday evening for the first time, with proportional finger length fixed at 8 ) you numbers become here:

"Right hand
Finger length 7.8
Palm width 7.9
Palm length 10

(NOTICE: Finger length is now fixed at 8...!)

Palm breadth to finger length proportion: (7.9 / 7.8 ) x 8 (fixed) = proportion 8.10
Palm length to finger length proportion: (10 / 7.8 ) x 8 (fixed) = proportion 10.26
Palm breadth to palm length (!) ratio: (7.9 / 7.8 ) = ratio 0.79

This give the following for your right hand

Proportions: 8 (fixed) | 8.10 | 10.26 | (0.79)

Now that we have found your 'proportions', we can compared each of these numbers with the 'proportions' that are featured for each hand shape in the picture:

- 8.10 is most close to the '8.2' in the FIRE hand shape (=> '+')
- 10.26 is most close to the '10.4' in the EARTH hand shape (=> '+')
- and finally (0.79) is most close to the '(0.76)' in the FIRE hand shape (=> '-')

We have found your 'Shape Profile': + | + | -

And we have found two match (for '8.10' and '(0.79)') with FIRE.
And the '+ | + | -' profile is very similar to the FIRE profiel (= + | ++ | -).

So, therefore you have FIRE hand shape for your right hand!

(Which is confirmed by the fact that in the picture with the elemental axes your finger coordinates fall in the RED ZONE!)


Tap, it might take a little practice... but at the end everything will makes sense!


PS. The reasons why I changed from palm length fixed at 10 into finger length fixed at 8 for three reasons:

1 - the finger length variation among people is smaller than the variations for palm breadth and palm length;
2 - the average finger length in people from the US and the UK appears to be close to 8.0.
3 - and I also found that the approach of keeping finger length at 8 works much better as well in order to describe the essential differences between the 4 hand shapes, because EARTH hand shape and WATER hand shape represent the extrimities in the elemental hand shape model... and the 'shape profile' for EARTH hand is now very typically featured with '+' signs only, while the WATER hand shape is now featured with '-' signs only.

NOTICE: In the (preceeding) approach where I kept palm length fixed, the hand shapes changed from position - suggesting that FIRE and AIR became the extremities, which would have been rather confusing, and the profiles for all 4 hand became there a combination of '+' signs and '-' signs... which did not really make sense as well.


(Sorry Tap, I realize that I have now presented quite a lot of info in this post... but I especially hope that you will notice the new color zones in my picture: because these should solve your propblem regarding where the 'mixed zones' start!)




___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

Martijn (admin)
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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:20 pm

Eureka...!

Even one of the purple lines make sense from a fundamental point of view:

The line between the earth/fire zone represents EXACTLY the ratio when a palm is getting smaller/larger (relative to finger length) with a fixed palm breadth versus palm length ratio!

(From a fundamental point of view the purple line should go from the coordinates fl/pb = 0.80, fl/pl = 0.65 to the coordinates fl/pb = 1.20, fl/pl = 0.95... and luckily that is where the line has been from the start!)


This means that the arbitrary examples in the books did not generate much 'error' at all, and this implicates that the borders between earth/fire and air/water are positioned are reliable.

happy yel

PS. And then it is possible to understand that the other purple line (representing a key-point) in the mix zones between earth/air and fire/water should have been where they are right now (I have correct that line a little bit).


Last edited by Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Patti on Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:44 pm

Martijn, have you come up with a particular location for measuring at the wrist. In most hands, there is a diagonal line being measured between the middle of the middle finger at the metacarpophalangeal crease and the top wrist line. Shouldn't one be measuring across the wrist to find this center point - as the measurement can change slightly as you slide the ruler to different locations.

Also, it may not be significant, but Bali pointed out in his book on creases that the top wrist crease is known to change seasonally. For those with a chained top crease, this could imply that the chain may close into a higher or lower single crease. Although probably not really important, but as it seems the slightest error in measurements here with Lynn's and Tap's measurements, changes the mix of results - I would think that changes in the palm features being used as a standard point would easily fluctuate a hand from one mix to another. Then, of course, those 'seasonal changes' might be reflected in that change of hand type. Laughing

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Lynn on Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:28 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:


Example for how to apply these guidelines:

I'll show how it works in practice via the measurements that I have posted earlier for my own hands:

MY RIGHT HAND:

Finger length (middle finger): 8.7 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 8.8 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 11.65 cm

Finger length to palm length ratio: 8.7 / 11.65 = 0.75 => proportion = 7.5
Palm breadth to palm length ratio: 8.8 / 11.65 = 0.76 => proportion = 7.6
Finger length to palm breadth ratio: 8.7 / 8.8 = 0.99 => proportion = 9.9


MY LEFT HAND:

Finger length (middle finger): 8.85 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 9.05 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 11.55 cm

Finger length to palm length ratio: 8.85 / 11.55 = 0.77 => proportion = 7.7
Palm breadth to palm length ratio: 9.05 / 11.55 = 0.78 => proportion = 7.8
Finger length to palm breadth ratio: 8.85 / 9.05 = 0.98 => proportion = 9.8

Filling up the proportions in the HAND SHAPE PROPORTION FORMULA for each hand gives:

- Right hand: 7.5 | 7.6 | 10 (+ 9.9)
- Left hand: 7.7 | 7.8 | 10 (+ 9.8 )

Notice: compared to the medium hand shape ratios [8.0 | 8.0 | 10 (+ 10.0)] one sees for both hands the 'dynamic profile' which is typical for FIRE hand shape: lower | lower | lower. So, here is an important first indication that the element FIRE plays a part in both hands.

But it is always necessary to compare the numbers in the hand shape proportion for each hand with the typical elemental hand shape formulas:

* FIRE: The typical fire hand shape proportion ratios are: 7.3 | 7.5 | 10 (+ 9.7)

- Right hand: 7.5 | 7.6 | 10 (+ 9.9) => summarized difference for FIRE: 0.2 + 0.1 + 0.2 = 0.5
- Left hand: 7.7 | 7.8 | 10 (+ 9.8 ) => summarized difference for FIRE: 0.4 + 0.3 + 0.1 = 0.8

As described by the guidelines, a score of 1.0 or lower is usually indicative that the element is the most dominant element. So in both of my hands FIRE is probably the most dominant element.

And the 'summarized difference' scores for the other elements are indeed much higher (see below):

* EARTH: The typical earth hand shape proportion ratios are: 7.7 | 8.8 | 10 (+ 8.7)

- Right hand: 7.5 | 7.6 | 10 (+ 9.9) => summarized difference for EARTH: 0.2 + 1.2 + 1.2 = 2.6
- Left hand: 7.7 | 7.8 | 10 (+ 9.8 ) => summarized difference for EARTH: 0 + 1.0 + 1.1 = 2.1

* WATER: The typical water hand shape proportion ratios are: 8.3 | 7.4 | 10 (+ 11.3)

- Right hand: 7.5 | 7.6 | 10 (+ 9.9) => summarized difference for WATER: 0.8 + 0.2 + 1.4 = 2.4
- Left hand: 7.7 | 7.8 | 10 (+ 9.8 ) => summarized difference for WATER: 0.6 + 0.4 + 1.5 = 2.6

* AIR: The typical air hand shape proportion ratios are: 8.7 | 8.4 | 10 (+ 10.3)

- Right hand: 7.5 | 7.6 | 10 (+ 9.9) => summarized difference for AIR: 1.2 + 0.8 + 0.4 = 2.4
- Left hand: 7.7 | 7.8 | 10 (+ 9.8 ) => summarized difference for AIR: 1.0 + 0.6 + 0.5 = 2.6

So, the summerized difference to the elemental profiles for my right hand are: FIRE: 0.5, EARTH: 2.6, WATER: 2.4, and AIR: 2,6:
Difference to elemental profiles for left hand: FIRE: 0.8, EARTH: 2.1, WATER: 2.6, and AIR: 2.6.


CONCLUSION FOR MY HANDS:

The scores for both of my hands clearly indicate that FIRE is the dominant element in my hands, and this is also confirmed by the 'dynamic profile' observed in each hand

Therefore my dominant hand shape type is:
- right hand: FIRE
- left hand: FIRE


PS. My earlier report for my hands was:

"My hands:
- right hand (fl/pb: 0.989, fl/pl: 0.747): close to fire hand shape
- left hand (fl/pb: 0.978, fl/pl: 0.766): fire hand shape"

This sounds very complicated!

Just to compare with the way I do it....

RIGHT HAND:
Finger length (middle finger): 8.7 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 8.8 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 11.65 cm

Compare length & breadth = Rectangular palm
fingers=8.7/11.65 = 0.746%
= fire hand

LEFT HAND:
Finger length (middle finger): 8.85 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 9.05 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 11.55 cm


Compare length & breadth = Rectangular palm
fingers = 8.85/11.55 = 0.766%
= fire hand.

in this case, are all the other calculations really necessary?

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:46 pm

Patti wrote:Martijn, have you come up with a particular location for measuring at the wrist.

In most hands, there is a diagonal line being measured between the middle of the middle finger at the metacarpophalangeal crease and the top wrist line. Shouldn't one be measuring across the wrist to find this center point - as the measurement can change slightly as you slide the ruler to different locations.

Also, it may not be significant, but Bali pointed out in his book on creases that the top wrist crease is known to change seasonally. For those with a chained top crease, this could imply that the chain may close into a higher or lower single crease. Although probably not really important, but as it seems the slightest error in measurements here with Lynn's and Tap's measurements, changes the mix of results - I would think that changes in the palm features being used as a standard point would easily fluctuate a hand from one mix to another. Then, of course, those 'seasonal changes' might be reflected in that change of hand type. Laughing

Hi Patti,

Thank you for your considerations.

Regarding your question: one can simply look for the central point at the upper wrist crease.

By the way, yes... for those people who's finger coordinates are close the border regions a millimeter more of less for hand length could create a different result at first sight. But that is were the percentages will serve to show how strong the connection with a hand shape really is! However, if you look at the proportions related to palm length... you can see that the key-borders vary up to at least about 18%. So the effect of one mm more or less (which represents about 1%) is not very large at all in that perspective... and by the way since since in my method there are three ratio's involved, chances are pretty low that one will get confronted with border regions for multiple aspects in both hands! So, I estimate that implication or mm more of less is actually quite insignificant regarding the average result for both hands together.

scratch ...Not sure why you mentioned Lynn's and Tap's hand in specific - because it would require for you to make an analysis of their proportional formulas (which I have not yet presented, but these are in Lynn's case for both hands exactly the same, and for Tap's hand there is only a difference for only 1 aspect in the proportional formula - and there are only some percentage differences between significance of the elements in each hand).


Regarding seasonal influences, I think there is not much evidence for such an effect. By the way Rai's study is not featured in Bali's book, so maybe even the exact sources is unknown (I can't find any confirming info). Nevertheless, studies have shown that the results in wrist creases are relatively stable among populations... which could indicate that if there are any season influences, these are likely very small.

My estimate is that the issue concerned only a small statistical effect in Rai's study - which very likely has no implications at all regarding the assessment of palm length in an individual at all. So, I see no basis to recognize that as a problem at all.

But thanks for mentioning Bali's comment.


Thanks!

___________________________________________
sunny

Martijn van Mensvoort
Hand researcher & psychologist in The Netherlands (Holland)
Presents: Multi-Perspective Palm Reading + the Global Palm Reading Network

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:04 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn wrote:

This sounds very complicated!

Just to compare with the way I do it....

RIGHT HAND:
Finger length (middle finger): 8.7 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 8.8 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 11.65 cm

Compare length & breadth = Rectangular palm
fingers=8.7/11.65 = 0.746%
= fire hand

LEFT HAND:
Finger length (middle finger): 8.85 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 9.05 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 11.55 cm


Compare length & breadth = Rectangular palm
fingers = 8.85/11.55 = 0.766%
= fire hand.

in this case, are all the other calculations really necessary?

Hi Lynn!

Welcome back - I hope you enjoyed your weekend!

Regarding your question... don't worry, those calculations became completely irrelevant during this weekend weekend. Sorry, I have been thinking out loud a lot during the past days... so maybe you can simply focus on sharing your thoughts (questions) regarding my new picture - you can especially focus your attention on how I described the 4 hand shapes at the top of the picture.... which should now all make sense in the perspective of the elemental axes & the elemental ZONES that are now feature in the picture.

I think the result is quite exciting, since I think my model now sort of (indirectly) confirms the significance of the guidelines that you have been using - though my model indicates that for the earth hand it would be appropriate to say that in an earth hand the finger length versus palm length ration is required to be below 78%.

(Lynn, I think this could be the only violation regarding your rules - since you are working with a percentage of 75%)


After you have been away from since friday, it's hard for me to recommend where you can start reading here... because I made quite a few steps before I was able to COMPLETE (!) my study this afternoon.

You can see the end result in the picture below (today I have only modified some details in that picture):



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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:17 pm


PS. Lynn, one more thought...

I can also recommend you to focus on the "+" and "-" signs that I have now featured below each hand shape in the picture... because these show exactly how the dimensions of the hand manifest in the perspective of finger length.

For example, for the EARTH hand shape the signs are "++ | + | ++"... which implicates that in this hand type the palm breadth is most pronounced relative to finger length (reflected by the first "++") and also relative to "palm length" (reflected by the other "++").

The other sign "+" reflects that in the earth hand shame palm length is also large relative to finger length ... however, palm length is even larger in the FIRE hand shape! (Because in the 'shape profile' for the FIRE hand the 2nd aspect says: "++"...!)

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:13 pm


By the way, Lynn, I mentioned < 78% for earth hand.

But I could also mention that my model presents a few more specific guidelines for the 'finger length vs palm length' in the other hand shapes as well. The number appear to be:

- < 80% for fire hand
- > 80.5% for air hand shape
- and > 82% for water hand shape.

Beyond the exact percentages, this order goes perfectly with the essentials in Johnny's descriptions.

(Thinking out loud ... this also implicates that any percentage between 80% and 80.5% would end up always to be a 'mix' of hand shapes)

To me this looks like this all is in line with the basic principles that you learned at the CS.


By the way, in one of my posts earlier this afternoon I mentioned that I discovered why the 'purple lines' in my picture were sort of a lucky (but reliable) finding... these sort of show the essential zones for each hand shape.

I now even UNDERSTAND that the axes need to be rotated (just a little bit) towards the center of each 'part fo the cake' where they are positioned in!


Finally, regarding the 7.5 - 8.0 - 10.0 proportions that you are using for the fire hand... those are just within the RED zone. More specific: these proportions have finger coordinates that are found at the purple line on the left side of the F-button.

So, my study indicates that those coordinates may look fine for practical purposes at first sight... but essentially they are too much 'earthy'!

(After correcting the direction of the 'fire axis' I found that 7.4 - 7.6 - 10 could have been THE most precise alternative in the perspective of your guideline... though I have found multiple reasons to work with an approach where finger length is considered at the most stable factor, and therefore I would propose: 8 - 8.2 - 10.8 as the best alternative - which is only slightly different from the 8 - 8.2 - 10.9 which I have now presented in my picture because these are directly the result on this study)


Thank you!

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Lynn on Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:23 pm

It is going to take me some time to catch up with this thread. However this sounds like good news!

Martijn (admin) wrote:
... And after adding the colors in the zones, I think it is much more obvious that this new (detailed) model for recognizing the elemental hand shapes does follow Lynn's principles as well!

And we can now also recognize immediately from the pictures that some of the hand examples that were presented by the authors in their books... may not have been the best choices (because E1, W1 and F3 are inside the 'mix' zones... though they are in the most likely 'mix' zone for the element involved - so in a way even those examples make sense for sure!).

(Looking forward to see her response after this weekend!!!)

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Lynn on Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:01 am

by the way I would like to apologise for some of my earlier comments which perhaps were slightly defensive on behalf of the 5 element system! I thought you were trying to re-invent the system Martijn, but now I see that you were trying to understand it (and include other authors apart from C. Soc. ones) and put some solid evidence /measurements /stats behind the theory. Thanks for taking my comments into account Martijn and re-adjusting your thoughts & picture accordingly. (I still haven't taken it all in).

meanwhile... it is my turn to be thinking out loud.

I've been thinking about the fact that you measure palm breadth across the end of the metacarpals, and I measure across the centre of the hand.

I was thinking about how handshape also reflects the muscular development of the hand and wondered if measuring across the centre could show more about this, but I see that even when measuring across the metacarpals, the dominant hand seems to be slightly wider.

I am really not sure exactly where to measure across metacarpals. I know you have described it, but how can we be sure people are measuring exactly the right place?
I know that measuring across the centre of the palm doesn't fit with the anthropometric studies, but it could be more accurate in the sense that we know exactly where to measure. Once you've measured the length of the palm from base of middle finger to centre of wrist, you pinpoint the centre of that line half way down the palm, and draw a line across at 90 degrees to that line, then you have the measurement across centre of palm. (which are also the lines we used for drawing up the quadrants of the hand).

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:22 am

Lynn wrote:by the way I would like to apologise for some of my earlier comments which perhaps were slightly defensive on behalf of the 5 element system! I thought you were trying to re-invent the system Martijn, but now I see that you were trying to understand it (and include other authors apart from C. Soc. ones) and put some solid evidence /measurements /stats behind the theory. Thanks for taking my comments into account Martijn and re-adjusting your thoughts & picture accordingly. (I still haven't taken it all in).

Thanks Lynn.

(Though I wasn't expecting an apology, for I don't think there was any need to make it. But I appreciate the spirit of your gesture)

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:08 am

Lynn wrote:...

meanwhile... it is my turn to be thinking out loud.

I've been thinking about the fact that you measure palm breadth across the end of the metacarpals, and I measure across the centre of the hand.

I was thinking about how handshape also reflects the muscular development of the hand and wondered if measuring across the centre could show more about this, but I see that even when measuring across the metacarpals, the dominant hand seems to be slightly wider.

I am really not sure exactly where to measure across metacarpals. I know you have described it, but how can we be sure people are measuring exactly the right place?
I know that measuring across the centre of the palm doesn't fit with the anthropometric studies, but it could be more accurate in the sense that we know exactly where to measure. Once you've measured the length of the palm from base of middle finger to centre of wrist, you pinpoint the centre of that line half way down the palm, and draw a line across at 90 degrees to that line, then you have the measurement across centre of palm. (which are also the lines we used for drawing up the quadrants of the hand).

Lynn, in general... I don't think that there are any 'exact' measurements possible at all. Because even for measuring finger length the result will depend even on whether the finger is fully 'stretched' (consciously).

Regarding measuring palm breadth, I think you are underestimating the fact that at the times of the C.S. (+ in the field of hand reading in general), students were (are) not really stimulated to make any precise measurements for the dimensions of the hand at all.

For example: via PM you described earlier today that you received some feedback from (former) students that they usually only assess by 'appearance' - and not via measurement. I realize that you were basically talking about palm length, however, I think this does illustrate that in the C.S. approach measurement became never really a requirement.

I wonder: have you ever compared your measurements for a couple of hands with the measurements made by other for the same hands?

(I am asking because I have some experience with experiments regarding palm breadth measurements in the past, and I found that the approaches described in hand reading books are nearly always not very specific. And I have the impression that your method is actually kind of more problematic because I think with your method one can not measure the palm breadth if the thumb is closed... and I also have the perception that by measuring above the thumb the result will for many hands depend on the angle of the thumb, whether it is stretched, and for many hands the muscular activity & skins activity depends on the thumb angle, etc. Also, I think your comment that your approach includes 'muscle development' indirectly confirms my observations.

Finally, this also makes me a bit wonder why Fincham claims that hand shape is "genetic, karmic and fixed" (page 14) - because I think it is obvious that hand shape not only varies with age (especially in children the assessment of hand shape requires other guidelines than in adults)... according your view it also depends on muscle development, which appears to me as a contradiction regarding Fincham's association with genetics).


By the way Lynn, I am fully aware that the measuring palm breadth at the metacarpals is a bit problematic as well. However, when done properly it's a relative stable measure - because it does not depend on gesture,.nor muscle activity.

And because this approach has widely been adopted (not only by various authors in the field of hand reading, also by - to mention a few: NASA, scientific researchers, and most other fields where anthropometic hand measurements are involved).

So, I propose that we should not focus on the question: 'which approach is the best?', because I am confident that this question is actually very hard to answer precisely.


It remains to be seen whether the results of your approach (and your guidelines) is really different from the approach that I am using here + the guidelines resulting from this.

I hope this makes sense.



I would recommend to measure 'palm breadth' from the starting point of the life line to a horizontal point the marriage lines manifest (and try to find the shortest distance in this approach).

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Lynn on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:58 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:Regarding measuring palm breadth, I think you are underestimating the fact that at the times of the C.S. (+ in the field of hand reading in general), students were (are) not really stimulated to make any precise measurements for the dimensions of the hand at all.

For example: via PM you described earlier today that you received some feedback from (former) students that they usually only assess by 'appearance' - and not via measurement. I realize that you were basically talking about palm length, however, I think this does illustrate that in the C.S. approach measurement became never really a requirement.
scratch (sorry it made me )
Martijn, you have no idea how much we used to measure aspects of the hands! (mention 'quadrants' to any CS member and they will groan at the tedious measurements we used to do!). I don't know why you've assumed that we didn't take measurements. I've still got the hand measurements (length, width, finger) of all the people who attended the seminar on handshape that I went to around 1996.

re the people I spoke to this weekend. I wasn't talking about palm length, I was talking about hand shape. Remember it is up to 20 or more years since they studied hand analysis. Those who don't use hand analysis regularly will probably have forgotten what measurements they were taught. Those who continue to use it will have seen enough hands to be able to judge by appearance if the palm is square or rectangular and has long or short fingers.

wonder: have you ever compared your measurements for a couple of hands with the measurements made by other for the same hands?
I did when I was a student, and I do when I'm teaching.

(I am asking because I have some experience with experiments regarding palm breadth measurements in the past, and I found that the approaches described in hand reading books are nearly always not very specific. And I have the impression that your method is actually kind of more problematic because I think with your method one can not measure the palm breadth if the thumb is closed... and I also have the perception that by measuring above the thumb the result will for many hands depend on the angle of the thumb, whether it is stretched, and for many hands the muscular activity & skins activity depends on the thumb angle, etc. Also, I think your comment that your approach includes 'muscle development' indirectly confirms my observations.
I think angle of thumb would not make enough difference to turn a rectangular palm into a square palm.

Finally, this also makes me a bit wonder why Fincham claims that hand shape is "genetic, karmic and fixed" (page 14) - because I think it is obvious that hand shape not only varies with age (especially in children the assessment of hand shape requires other guidelines than in adults)... according your view it also depends on muscle development, which appears to me as a contradiction regarding Fincham's association with genetics).
I'm not sure what Johnny meant by this. In fact he contradicts it on page 18 where he says "All babies from all cultures have earth hands". I disagreed with that statement because I have seen new born babies with long fingers.
I'm not sure about the muscle development, I was thinking out loud.

By the way Lynn, I am fully aware that the measuring palm breadth at the metacarpals is a bit problematic as well. However, when done properly it's a relative stable measure - because it does not depend on gesture,.nor muscle activity.

And because this approach has widely been adopted (not only by various authors in the field of hand reading, also by - to mention a few: NASA, scientific researchers, and most other fields where anthropometic hand measurements are involved).

So, I propose that we should not focus on the question: 'which approach is the best?', because I am confident that this question is actually very hard to answer precisely.

It remains to be seen whether the results of your approach (and your guidelines) is really different from the approach that I am using here + the guidelines resulting from this.

I hope this makes sense.
Ok thanks for your reply and for posting the measurement pic again.

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:53 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:Regarding measuring palm breadth, I think you are underestimating the fact that at the times of the C.S. (+ in the field of hand reading in general), students were (are) not really stimulated to make any precise measurements for the dimensions of the hand at all.

For example: via PM you described earlier today that you received some feedback from (former) students that they usually only assess by 'appearance' - and not via measurement. I realize that you were basically talking about palm length, however, I think this does illustrate that in the C.S. approach measurement became never really a requirement.
scratch (sorry it made me )
Martijn, you have no idea how much we used to measure aspects of the hands! (mention 'quadrants' to any CS member and they will groan at the tedious measurements we used to do!). I don't know why you've assumed that we didn't take measurements. I've still got the hand measurements (length, width, finger) of all the people who attended the seminar on handshape that I went to around 1996.

re the people I spoke to this weekend. I wasn't talking about palm length, I was talking about hand shape. Remember it is up to 20 or more years since they studied hand analysis. Those who don't use hand analysis regularly will probably have forgotten what measurements they were taught. Those who continue to use it will have seen enough hands to be able to judge by appearance if the palm is square or rectangular and has long or short fingers.

Thanks for explaining that Lynn.

But sorry, I have to correct you here: I have seen Hidde doing the 'quadrant analysis' - including the necessary measurements involved. But if I remember correctly, I think I have only seen him doing those measurements from paper.

(Via the pencil drawn contour that you learned to draw around the hand, according the teachings at the C.S.)

So, I wonder: what measurements are you exactly referring to? From the hand? Or from paper?

(I would not consider measurements from paper as reliable at all regarding palm breadth, simply because the drawn outline nearly always does not present a reliable reference for the true dimensions of the hand - because usually this method makes the hand look much larger than it really is. And I wonder: IF you are talking about palm breadth measurements directly from the hand... how come there is no criterium at all for discriminating a square palm from a rectangle shaped palm???)

scratch


PS. Lynn, if we agree that making palm breadth measurements is not an 'exact' science, then I think your argument against measurement at the metacarpals might become quite irrelevant - especially since the results of my study (based on measurement at the metacarpals) do confirm the general principles that you learned at the C.S...!

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  tap on Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:46 pm

Martijn
I am sorry, but I am really not understanding your new chart for many reasons. The unshaded/colored areas are not making any sense. They represent that only the finger lengths are considered with combination and not the palm widths ??? Air and Earth both have square hands; fire and water both have rectangular hands??? In reading the descriptions for shape (in Johnny’s book) the shapes of the hands also include the mounts and their size (taking into consideration a 3rd dimension), and seems to be a main factor in separating the two shapes. Should the size of the mounts be included as shape? If so, then a 3 dimensional shape must be reflected, and not just 2 dimensional shape in the chart.

Also,in reference to my hand shape and conclusions according to the chart I could see my right hand falls close to the purple line separating fire from earth, but is still in the in fire section;so a larger percent is fire, but to rule out earth completely does not seem correct. (really how did you get 33% earth and 83% fire: 116%...just looking at each separately … not even in the green section?) confused

right hand (fl/pb = 0.987; fl/pl = 7.8 ). EARTH = 33%, FIRE = 83%, AIR = 0%, WATER = 0%; the percentage for earth is irrelevant because for FIRE you have 2 matches in your shape profile + your shape profile is very typical for a fire hand)
,

I still have other questions, but want to think about everything for a bit longer.

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:12 pm

tap wrote:Martijn
I am sorry, but I am really not understanding your new chart for many reasons. The unshaded/colored areas are not making any sense. They represent that only the finger lengths are considered with combination and not the palm widths ???...

Hi Tap,

No that's not correct:

The horizontal scale does include palm breadth, specific: the horizontal scale = ratio of finger length versus palm breadth.

(I don't know where your question comes from, you sound really confused now... because I never changed the scale at all!)

wave



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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  tap on Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:22 pm

Okay, the shaded sections now reference the "pure" hand type" and not just the axis line?
Sorry I should have looked at it longer.

Did you say fire for my hands rolling on the floor


Last edited by tap on Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

Post  tap on Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:26 pm

The other question about how it seems that in the 5 element system the thickness of the mounts seems to play a role (actually the lines too) as part of the hand shape. I read where you and Lynn were discussing this and I just wondered ifthe chart can work with the 5 element system if that is the case.

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