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I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:29 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:Martijn,
While reading your first para, I felt that you understood what I was trying to describe. But, at the end, you mis-read me or left out some points Smile.

The examples I gave was to show: "how one can create arguments regarding how (possibly) any line can be associated with both the inner- and outer world."

What is your view on: As already mentioned here, the palm as a whole represents all that is inside of us. The division indicates whether we are conscious of that energy or not. However, irrespective of whether I am conscious or not, the energy seeks an outlet to get expressed in my life and/ or in the world. Then, how can this be used ( the expression of energy in the life and/or in the world) for the division of the palm?


Kiran, regarding your 2nd sentence.... I think you misunderstood the intend of my earlier point: with those words I meant to describe that one can create associative arguments (which eventually might result in inconsistencies) and one create funamental arguments (which should never result in incosistencies).

Be aware, the human mind can run in any direction... fundamental arguments will point out whether the mind runs in the right- (based on philosophical reality) or wrong direction (via arbitrary associations).

So, it is easy to create an argument, but when the argument does not pass a fundamental analysis... the the argument can be rejected.
Thumbs up! I understand your intentions and efforts in this direction Martijn.

Thanks for your understanding Kiran... I conclude that I have to continue working on describing things in my picture with clean & objective arguments.

Thanks!

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:39 pm

Lynn wrote:
I think this clearly confirms that there is an inconsistency in the elemental approach.
or is the inconsistency in your understanding of the elemental approach? (or maybe I don't explain it clearly enough).

Dear Lynn,

I can now finally present you a clear example directly taken from Dukes' work that serves as an example where I think one can hardly deny that there are inconsistencies included in Dukes' writings about the fundamentals of the elemental system:

- On page 31 Dukes writes:
"Water = Energy / Communication"

- But on page 57 Dukes writes in table 3:
"Mercury => Air => Key Attribute: Communication and hermeneutics".

I think I can only read this as that in the first description communication is directly linked with 'water', and in the second description communication is directly linked with 'air'!

Please?

PS. Now, I realize that one can start reasoning via associations that 'communication' has many dimensions... but please be aware that Dukes is describing here some fundamentals, and regarding this example I think you'll probably not be able to deny that this apparent inconsistancy is not explained by Dukes at all. Correct?

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Post  Patti on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:29 pm

Kiran.Katawa wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Kiran.Katawa wrote:Martijn,
While reading your first para, I felt that you understood what I was trying to describe. But, at the end, you mis-read me or left out some points Smile.

The examples I gave was to show: "how one can create arguments regarding how (possibly) any line can be associated with both the inner- and outer world."

What is your view on: As already mentioned here, the palm as a whole represents all that is inside of us. The division indicates whether we are conscious of that energy or not. However, irrespective of whether I am conscious or not, the energy seeks an outlet to get expressed in my life and/ or in the world. Then, how can this be used ( the expression of energy in the life and/or in the world) for the division of the palm?


Kiran, regarding your 2nd sentence.... I think you misunderstood the intend of my earlier point: with those words I meant to describe that one can create associative arguments (which eventually might result in inconsistencies) and one create funamental arguments (which should never result in incosistencies).

Be aware, the human mind can run in any direction... fundamental arguments will point out whether the mind runs in the right- (based on philosophical reality) or wrong direction (via arbitrary associations).

So, it is easy to create an argument, but when the argument does not pass a fundamental analysis... the the argument can be rejected.
Thumbs up! I understand your intentions and efforts in this direction Martijn.

Martijn, could you explain what is "philosophical reality" as it seems like a contradiction in and of itself?

Did you know that the function of thinking itself is brain cells making associations/connections?

In other words, I'm not really sure what you meant by the statement in bold. If associative thinking is less valid than philosophical thinking when it comes to modern handreading then we are doomed here. Wink

p.s. Please try not to use wikipedia for your answer.
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Post  Patti on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:43 pm

RishiRahul wrote:
Patti wrote:

This slicing and dicing of the hand into complete sections and quadrants of pure life essence is only a method for trying to divide a moving, pulsing, multidirectional spectrum into boxes or compartments of energies. But, doing this is a human mind's limited break down of something much greater and much more whole. Systems that use such labeling are basic learning systems on how to combine the various pieces and obtain various results. It's is like mixing and matching colors. These systems should be used as a tool or stepping stone to advance to the mixing and matching by quick analysis/association/intuition process that comes to those that actively practice in this field.

Imagine trying to do to the heart what you're doing here to the hand and even in the compartmentalized brain it is becoming more known that the brain is not as divided as it once was thought to be.


A wonderful & very appropriate narrative of what Practical Palmistry & Palmreading is all about.

Rather a narrative for advanced handreaders/palmists....!

Which is why I always mention that in crafts, such as this, the 'black & white logic of 2+2= may not be 4 may not happen.

I was having the same problem of expressing this is in astrology forums also, but unfortunately my eNGLISH expressions are not good enough to explain this SO WELL.

RishiRahul

Thank you Rishi!! flower

What I realized after I had written that, is that what is happening in this discussion is a rearranging of the pre-diced sections. Instead of starting with the actual hand itself, there seems to be a moving around of the already labeled pieces and parts and trying to make sense of them. When they may have been mislabeled in the first place or it was a toss up as to how to label them. lol!

Yes, when you reach the advanced stage you are at the place where the experts in the past thought they could label the hands and make a map for everyone else to see what they see. The maps are 2 dimensional and meant to trigger associations. They are just someone's philosophical reality based on the associations they had made. Wink

sunny
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:00 pm

Patti wrote:
Patti wrote:
Thumbs up! I understand your intentions and efforts in this direction Martijn.

Martijn, could you explain what is "philosophical reality" as it seems like a contradiction in and of itself?

Did you know that the function of thinking itself is brain cells making associations/connections?

In other words, I'm not really sure what you meant by the statement in bold. If associative thinking is less valid than philosophical thinking when it comes to modern handreading then we are doomed here. Wink

p.s. Please try not to use wikipedia for your answer.

Hi Patti,

My use of the words 'philosophical reality' was just an attempt to refer to 'reasoning via (established) philosophical principles'.

I think in this topic we are discussing the fundamental principles (used in the hand reading literature). And because we are aware that the literature includes some contradictive elements (not only regarding the topic that we are discussing here) therefore I think it is important en maybe even necessary to use proper reasoning only.

This should help us to avoid that any 'yes' can at any time become a 'no' via personal associations, because associative reasoning can easily violate an established philosophic principle.

wave

PS. Patti, don't worry... I am not proposing 'proper reasoning' as a new standard for recognize 'modern hand reading' in general; again, I am only proposing 'proper reasoning' to find/describe the similarities (and differences) regarding the key-elements of various hand reading systems.

(In general Wikipedia is a useful independent tool to find a quick detailed summary of the nature of most philosophical/psychology principles)

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:36 pm

Patti wrote:Perhaps to you my thoughts seem associative and related to doing readings. Yes, absolutely I can say most of my methods I use in reading hands have evolved over the years from interaction with hundreds and hundreds of live samples to observe in and out of their habitats. Smile I definitely have come to not base my readings and interpretations on *applied meanings*. Archetypes, elements and labels are mostly just that for me, labels and memory triggers.

This slicing and dicing of the hand into complete sections and quadrants of pure life essence is only a method for trying to divide a moving, pulsing, multidirectional spectrum into boxes or compartments of energies. But, doing this is a human mind's limited break down of something much greater and much more whole. Systems that use such labeling are basic learning systems on how to combine the various pieces and obtain various results. It's is like mixing and matching colors. These systems should be used as a tool or stepping stone to advance to the mixing and matching by quick analysis/association/intuition process that comes to those that actively practice in this field.

Imagine trying to do to the heart what you're doing here to the hand and even in the compartmentalized brain it is becoming more known that the brain is not as divided as it once was thought to be.

Martijn, I will answer your question with a quote from one of your own web pages:

http://palmreadingperspectives.wordpress.com/tag/jung/

Aristotle, the Greek philosopher said about the hand:

“… (the hand) is the organ of the organs, the active agent of the passive powers

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 6 Aristotle


Patti, my question was:

"how can you describe a cognitive function (such as 'will' and 'logic/reason', which are both know as aspects of the 'inner world') to be representing a part of the 'outer world'?"

I don't see how the Aristotle quote ("… (the hand) is the organ of the organs, the active agent of the passive powers") could become helpfull regarding my question.

My question relates to the two phalanges of the thumb only, while the Aristotle quote relates to the full hand.

scratch

PS. thinking Patti, I could also invite you to answer this alternative question:

If you think the pinky is related to both the inner- and outer world, which principles are you using to describe it's connection with the inner world?

(I am asking because usually the pinky is associated with the archetype of mercurius, featured with principles/key-words: 'communication' & 'relationships'; Dukes also uses the term 'hermeneutics'. So the connection of the pinky with the outer world is very obvious... therefore I would like to invite you to describe how you think that connect it connects with the inner world - preferably via principles/key-words)

___________________________________________
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Post  Patti on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:43 pm

I wonder why this discussion has become reduced to the very thing you pointed out it shouldn't in your first comment.

When this topic gets reduced to philosophical viewpoints and opinions, this thread will become endless and pointless.

There are some good points in the book "The Philosopher's Toolkit" that give another view as to what this thread has become.

The section on Realist - Non-Realist (which discusses 'philosophical realism') gives an example with this statement:

"In 1628 William Harvey invented the circulation of the heart."

Actually he discovered what the heart did, and did not invent circulation.

This is what is happening here. The hand maps (inventions) are being mistaken for discoveries.
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Post  Patti on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:31 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:

Patti, my question was:

"how can you describe a cognitive function (such as 'will' and 'logic/reason', which are both know as aspects of the 'inner world') to be representing a part of the 'outer world'?"

I don't see how the Aristotle quote ("… (the hand) is the organ of the organs, the active agent of the passive powers") could become helpfull regarding my question.

My question relates to the two phalanges of the thumb only, while the Aristotle quote relates to the full hand.

scratch

PS. thinking Patti, I could also invite you to answer this alternative question:

If you think the pinky is related to both the inner- and outer world, which principles are you using to describe it's connection with the inner world?

(I am asking because usually the pinky is associated with the archetype of mercurius, featured with principles/key-words: 'communication' & 'relationships'; Dukes also uses the term 'hermeneutics'. So the connection of the pinky with the outer world is very obvious... therefore I would like to invite you to describe how you think that connect it connects with the inner world - preferably via principles/key-words)

I - The thumb represents the inner essence of man! - Page 6 Fetal_10

I don't really use in practice the terms "inner/outer and conscious/subconscious". I don't use the elements for references.

The little fingers (and the thumbs) are the last to finish development. In development, if there is a lot of construction material, you get bigger and if there is less material, the resulting product is smaller. A robust human would therefore be one that has enough material and time to complete a proper balance in growth. A weaker being is one that is likely deficient in some area and must learn to compensate for this imbalance.

The little finger is associated with the lower chakras. This area of the body relates to our reproduction organs and a major source of elimination. Very often malformations here (little finger and mount below) relate to malformations in these organs and sometimes the lower limbs. Sexual communication is the most personal and private form of communication but for those who make it their profession it becomes less intimate and easier than personal conversation. It's about the degree a person is willing to expose what makes them feel vulnerable.
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Post  RishiRahul on Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:40 pm

Patti wrote:
RishiRahul wrote:
Patti wrote:

This slicing and dicing of the hand into complete sections and quadrants of pure life essence is only a method for trying to divide a moving, pulsing, multidirectional spectrum into boxes or compartments of energies. But, doing this is a human mind's limited break down of something much greater and much more whole. Systems that use such labeling are basic learning systems on how to combine the various pieces and obtain various results. It's is like mixing and matching colors. These systems should be used as a tool or stepping stone to advance to the mixing and matching by quick analysis/association/intuition process that comes to those that actively practice in this field.

Imagine trying to do to the heart what you're doing here to the hand and even in the compartmentalized brain it is becoming more known that the brain is not as divided as it once was thought to be.


A wonderful & very appropriate narrative of what Practical Palmistry & Palmreading is all about.

Rather a narrative for advanced handreaders/palmists....!

Which is why I always mention that in crafts, such as this, the 'black & white logic of 2+2= may not be 4 may not happen.

I was having the same problem of expressing this is in astrology forums also, but unfortunately my eNGLISH expressions are not good enough to explain this SO WELL.

RishiRahul

Thank you Rishi!! flower

What I realized after I had written that, is that what is happening in this discussion is a rearranging of the pre-diced sections. Instead of starting with the actual hand itself, there seems to be a moving around of the already labeled pieces and parts and trying to make sense of them. When they may have been mislabeled in the first place or it was a toss up as to how to label them. lol!

Yes, when you reach the advanced stage you are at the place where the experts in the past thought they could label the hands and make a map for everyone else to see what they see. The maps are 2 dimensional and meant to trigger associations. They are just someone's philosophical reality based on the associations they had made. Wink

sunny

Hi Patty & others,

A question has slowly emerged in my mind after going again through this thread.

This 'inner'/'outer' & similar discussions do help much in theory; but how is it useful in the practical palmistry?

And certainly, the Craft of Palmistry, & other similar crafts, should have some use.
The practical use being more relevant in the modern world??!!?

RishiRahul

P.S:= I share a part of discussion on astrology/any divinatory craft like palmistry in the forum I am moderator of:==
RohinRanjan=BUT thereafter we must not remain SLAVES to those shackles and must not lose the two WINGS: Logic and Imagination! Imagination is a wide cloud but within it also lies Intuition!
Rishi=I hope this wriiten wouldnot fall in copyright rules, if I use it elsewhere....
The above written is a 'Whammy'!



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Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:45 pm

Thanks Patti,

Yes, sexual communication is the most personal and private form of communication; so, despite what people associate with 'intimacy', intimate relationships are a form of interpersonal communication... and thus relate to the outer world.

However, 'intimacy' itself concerns a feeling (which of course relates to the inner world) - but one can speak of a close affective connection with another person as a result of a bond.

Johnny Fincham associates the pinky finger with a specific form of 'dialogue' (which requires the presence of a person in the outer world). So, despite that feelings are involved with 'intimacy'... it does require the outer world (another person) to exist.


So, I still find it hard to relate the pinky finger with the inner world. And by the way, Johnny Fincham's name for the pinky finger - his speaks of the 'Antenna finger' - is a nice illustration of the fact that the pinky finger usually is associated with issues that relate to the outer world.

As far as I know, only Arnold Holtzman presents a view where the little finger is directly associated with the inner world; he speaks of 'the inner image of self'... but I have no idea how Holtzman arrived at this perception, and I find it rather unusual to see that his description looks very similar to how the usual associations regarding the index finger - so we can hardly connect his work with the works of other authors in the field of hand reading.

(Ed Campbell describes for the pinky: "The little finger deals with close personal relationships, including parental relationships, intimate love, and sex. To these areas add possible gifts with music, speach, language, and other communications, and traditionally, as Mercury was the god of thieves, business." - All relate to the outer world)

However, since I realize that Holtzman is talking about a psychoanalytic perspective it is hard to get a grip on his use of language (even for a me as an academic educated psychologist).

Anyway, Patti thanks for your answer! Thumb up



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Post  Patti on Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:32 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:Thanks Patti,

Yes, sexual communication is the most personal and private form of communication; so, despite what people associate with 'intimacy', intimate relationships are a form of interpersonal communication... and thus relate to the outer world.

However, 'intimacy' itself concerns a feeling (which of course relates to the inner world) - but one can speak of a close affective connection with another person as a result of a bond.

Johnny Fincham associates the pinky finger with a specific form of 'dialogue' (which requires the presence of a person in the outer world). So, despite that feelings are involved with 'intimacy'... it does require the outer world (another person) to exist.


So, I still find it hard to relate the pinky finger with the inner world. And by the way, Johnny Fincham's name for the pinky finger - his speaks of the 'Antenna finger' - is a nice illustration of the fact that the pinky finger usually is associated with issues that relate to the outer world.

As far as I know, only Arnold Holtzman presents a view where the little finger is directly associated with the inner world; he speaks of 'the inner image of self'... but I have no idea how Holtzman arrived at this perception, and I find it rather unusual to see that his description looks very similar to how the usual associations regarding the index finger - so we can hardly connect his work with the works of other authors in the field of hand reading.

(Ed Campbell describes for the pinky: "The little finger deals with close personal relationships, including parental relationships, intimate love, and sex. To these areas add possible gifts with music, speach, language, and other communications, and traditionally, as Mercury was the god of thieves, business." - All relate to the outer world)

However, since I realize that Holtzman is talking about a psychoanalytic perspective it is hard to get a grip on his use of language (even for a me as an academic educated psychologist).

Anyway, Patti thanks for your answer! Thumb up



I think you missed my point:

It's about the degree a person is willing to expose what makes them feel vulnerable.

The 'exposure' is an outer expression of the inner state of being vulnerable. That holds true for every aspect of the hand. Like the analogy Kiran provided. There are switches (inner/outer) in every room, Here you are speaking of the 'room', the little finger.

<edit> (In regards to holding true for every aspect of the hand, as we move in the spectrum toward the thumb the energy shifts from vulnerability to empowerment. A willingness to expose/present how much force and in what manner to take what they want from the world, or impress upon the world their control/force/will/influence, is more related to the thumb side.)


Self expres​sion(communication) does not need an observer in order to communicate.

All fingers and thumb are antenna like, sending and receiving signals.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:38 pm

Patti wrote:
I think you missed my point:

It's about the degree a person is willing to expose what makes them feel vulnerable.

The 'exposure' is an outer expression of the inner state of being vulnerable. That holds true for every aspect of the hand. Like the analogy Kiran provided. There are switches (inner/outer) in every room, Here you are speaking of the 'room', the little finger.

<edit> (In regards to holding true for every aspect of the hand, as we move in the spectrum toward the thumb the energy shifts from vulnerability to empowerment. A willingness to expose/present how much force and in what manner to take what they want from the world, or impress upon the world their control/force/will/influence, is more related to the thumb side.)


Self expres​sion(communication) does not need an observer in order to communicate.

All fingers and thumb are antenna like, sending and receiving signals.

Patti, one can debate how to describe intimacy. I hope you allow me once more to refer to Wikipedia - the page which describes the components of an 'intimate relationship' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimate_relationship) describes:

"Genuine intimacy in human relationships requires dialogue, transparency, vulnerability and reciprocity."

Yes, the aspect of 'vulnerability' is an essential aspect... but dialogue, transparency & reciprocity are essential as well, and thus the presence of another person (= outer world) is necessary.

Beyond the info provided by Wikipedia, I think we should also be aware that feelings of vulnerability in isolation (without the presence of another person) can also very well be the result of neurotic tendencies - which more relate to the personality-structure of a person.

So, yes... 'vulnerability' is one of the key-aspects of intimacy, but there are a few other aspects required as well - which all appear to indicate that the presence of (or communication with) another person is required to CREATE intimacy!


Thank you for sharing your perceptions regarding this specific aspect of the pinky!

Thumb up

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Post  Patti on Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:46 pm

Vulnerability is related to more than intimacy.

i.e. It can relate to things like honesty and being straightforward or not. People lie at times to cover up or avoid revealing the simplest things because they cannot come up with the courage or whatever to speak up. Some people find admitting their mistakes makes them feel vulnerable. These things vary in the moment, situation and the person.

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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:38 am

Patti wrote:Vulnerability is related to more than intimacy.

i.e. It can relate to things like honesty and being straightforward or not. People lie at times to cover up or avoid revealing the simplest things because they cannot come up with the courage or whatever to speak up. Some people find admitting their mistakes makes them feel vulnerable. These things vary in the moment, situation and the person.


Sure Patti, I recognize how your description relates to the core-aspect of 'vulnerability'.

However, while 'intimacy' and 'relationships' have been associated frequently with the pinky... I think 'vulnerability' is only associated with a short pinky. So, I could here argue here that 'vulnerability' could also result from problems with intimacy (and/or relationships).

But as far as I know, as a quality 'vulnerability' has not directly been associated with the pinky in general.

However, Patti maybe you know a source which connects 'vulnerability' with the pinky - without the reference that it can result from a short pinky?


PS. Not sure that I have explained this well enough... basically, I think we can discriminate two types of 'vulnerability': 1) vulnerability as a QUALITY associated with a normal level of intimacy; 2) vulnerability as an INABILITY, often resulting from dealing with problems related to intimacy (or other issues).

I think the descriptions at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerability) suggest that the word is usually associated with the latter.

scratch What is your thought on this Patti?
Can you associate your thoughts with one of the 2 types that I described? Or maybe both?

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Post  Patti on Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:47 am

Why quote a source? My experience is my resource.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:00 am

Patti wrote:Why quote a source? My experience is my resource.

Sure, I can explain my request:

I asked for a source because I wonder whether you know any hand reading authors who associate 'vulnerability' with the pinky. So far I am not aware of such authors, but if you can give me just 1 author... then this would confirm that your perception has spread in the field of hand reading.

(I hope you understand that I am trying to avoid that we focus too much on associations of individuals that so far have never been described in the books at all).

I hope you don't mind me for asking?

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Post  Patti on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:16 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Patti wrote:Why quote a source? My experience is my resource.

Sure, I can explain my request:

I asked for a source because I wonder whether you know any hand reading authors who associate 'vulnerability' with the pinky. So far I am not aware of such authors, but if you can give me just 1 author... then this would confirm that your perception has spread in the field of hand reading.

(I hope you understand that I am trying to avoid that we focus too much on associations of individuals that so far have never been described in the books at all).

I hope you don't mind me for asking?

Perhaps Mark Seltman would join the discussion...?

http://blog.markseltman.com/2012/09/25/palmistry-and-values/

I used to say to my palmistry students, “It’s not what you see, but what you say and how you say it that matters”. It’s amazing how many kids ask, “Will I be rich and famous?” In response to a Thinking type, I may ask, “Will satisfaction and fulfillment in your relationships and career be enough for you?” I might say to a Feeling type, “You’ll look back one day and realize that your greatest riches resulted from being vulnerable and intimate with your family and friends.”

I get the feeling he has come to a similar realization of vulnerability and people's abilities in varying degrees to expose themselves. Although in this quote he is not referring to particular parts of hands.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:36 am

Patti wrote:
Perhaps Mark Seltman would join the discussion...?

http://blog.markseltman.com/2012/09/25/palmistry-and-values/

I used to say to my palmistry students, “It’s not what you see, but what you say and how you say it that matters”. It’s amazing how many kids ask, “Will I be rich and famous?” In response to a Thinking type, I may ask, “Will satisfaction and fulfillment in your relationships and career be enough for you?” I might say to a Feeling type, “You’ll look back one day and realize that your greatest riches resulted from being vulnerable and intimate with your family and friends.”

I get the feeling he has come to a similar realization of vulnerability and people's abilities in varying degrees to expose themselves. Although in this quote he is not referring to particular parts of hands.

Thanks Patti, on his blog Mark connects the word 'vulnerable' twice with the water hand type (he calls it 'feeling types').

Coincidently Mark wrote about the pinky finger in his latest blog-post; he e.g. talks about communication + wisdom + technical + language + family + sexual potentials, and for the short pinky he talks about 'trust' in the perspective of 'real intimacy' so that relates again to the sharing & the outer world (he does not talk about any other synonym for vulnerability/vulnerable at all):
http://blog.markseltman.com/2013/01/29/palmistry-and-the-pinky-finger/

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Post  Patti on Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:42 am

While working with Liz Hallows on her research with the MBTI (Myers Briggs Type Indicator) personality profiler it became very clear that we express ourselves largely based on preferences.

We gravitate to what nourishes us and retreat from what causes discomfort. This moving toward what nourishes us, can empower us. We retreat to protect our vulnerabilities.

This vulnerability and empowerment relates to the degrees to which a person feels capable of 'putting themselves out there' as well as letting outsiders in. This involves the entire hand (wholly and compartmentalized) and the concept of polarities.


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Post  Patti on Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:57 pm

This came across my Twitter feed:

http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/9648

Let's look at Quantum Palmistry
by Dr. Yoshifumi Harada
2013-02-05 09:32:19

We're on a similar wavelength or perhaps our discussion inspired this blog post.

study
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Post  knox gillespie on Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:22 am

Has anyone written that the thumb is the source of the witness, THE I , that watches , what memories are running , counter will to an action that is about to be begun, the quiet watcher over ones whole mindscape. Who sees the joy inside and out, with no opposite. The knower of the field.
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Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:23 am

knox gillespie wrote:Has anyone written that the thumb is the source of the witness, THE I , that watches , what memories are running , counter will to an action that is about to be begun, the quiet watcher over ones whole mindscape. Who sees the joy inside and out, with no opposite. The knower of the field.

Yes Knox, I have mentioned the 'I' in the first post (see the list of synonyms). Anyway, thank you for your interesting description!

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Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:23 pm

Patti wrote:This came across my Twitter feed:

http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/9648

Let's look at Quantum Palmistry
by Dr. Yoshifumi Harada
2013-02-05 09:32:19

We're on a similar wavelength or perhaps our discussion inspired this blog post.

study

For some reason I'm not seeing any content on that page, only menus. Tried a google search but still nothing showing when I try the cached page.

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Post  Lynn on Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:55 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn wrote:
I think this clearly confirms that there is an inconsistency in the elemental approach.
or is the inconsistency in your understanding of the elemental approach? (or maybe I don't explain it clearly enough).

Dear Lynn,

I can now finally present you a clear example directly taken from Dukes' work that serves as an example where I think one can hardly deny that there are inconsistencies included in Dukes' writings about the fundamentals of the elemental system:

- On page 31 Dukes writes:
"Water = Energy / Communication"

- But on page 57 Dukes writes in table 3:
"Mercury => Air => Key Attribute: Communication and hermeneutics".

I think I can only read this as that in the first description communication is directly linked with 'water', and in the second description communication is directly linked with 'air'!

Please?

PS. Now, I realize that one can start reasoning via associations that 'communication' has many dimensions... but please be aware that Dukes is describing here some fundamentals, and regarding this example I think you'll probably not be able to deny that this apparent inconsistancy is not explained by Dukes at all. Correct?

I don't think anyone denies that there are inconsistencies in Terry Dukes work.

Sorry Martijn I'm having difficulty following some of the arguments that you presented me with on Friday.

because Dukes described that each aspect of the hand possesses an inner and an outer aspect... and additionally he has also described in the chapter 'The fingers' (p. 80) how for the fingers the dorsal side relate to 'public' and the palmar side of the fingers relates to 'private' - so this could implicate that Dukes described how the dorsal side of the hand to 'outer world' and the inner side of the hand to 'inner world'!!)
Yes, correct that Dukes said that and I agree with it.

regarding
But Dukes starts with describing the 4 elements as follows (p.31):

Earth = Matter / Systematization
Fire = Time / Evaluation
Water = Energy / Communication
Air = Space / Consciousness

I have never used these. For example water=energy .... ALL the elements are forms of energy! Communication I would associate mainly with air element.



... the more I am thinking the palm represents the inner world and the fingers & thumb represent how we connect that to the outer world. "

Lynn, I think you made this move after I pointed out that in traditional palmistry the pinky finger is usually associated with 'communication' & 'relationships'...

Even tho the way I wrote it makes it sound like it just occurred to me, actually I've always made that association of the fingers & thumb connecting the rest of the hand with the outisde world. "If you think of the energy of the hand being expressed out through the fingers, horizontal lines on phalanges obstruct or block the energy flow." is taken from my teaching notes from 13 years ago. On page 1 of this discussion I said "I believe the thumb has the effect of integrating the rest of the hand and that the thumb is the final expression of all this combined energy out into the world." - again this has been my understanding for probably at least 15 years. So, I didn't just 'make a move' after your words last week!



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Post  Patti on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:08 pm

Lynn wrote:
Patti wrote:This came across my Twitter feed:

http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/9648

Let's look at Quantum Palmistry
by Dr. Yoshifumi Harada
2013-02-05 09:32:19

We're on a similar wavelength or perhaps our discussion inspired this blog post.

study

For some reason I'm not seeing any content on that page, only menus. Tried a google search but still nothing showing when I try the cached page.

It seems to have gone missing. The link is still in Twitter when you search #palmistry in the search box, but the article seems to have gone missing. It spoke of the multi-directional and multi-dimensional energy of the hands. Leaned in the direction of how I see the hands, too and contained a lot of what has been posted here in the author's own words and perspective.
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