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Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Thu May 26, 2011 3:52 pm

knox gillespie wrote:1. Inherent geometry in nature, even space and vacuum have this.
2.same as 1
3.Not a well thought question
4.fundamentalism of the past
5 Modern palmist is in transition with new science
6 Not a clear question, labeling readers
7 Not true, simian line
8 yes,presently it can't
9 Too vague , connection is everywhere
10 yes
11 Not true, some people are circling, some are understanding, the index of reason is the key concept , there are not many long fingers in prehistoric times.


Ofcourse knox, when we know the principle of the palmistry , we can answer the all the question with no time.

1. Space and vacuum has lines. so we also has lines. does it make sense? ofcourse, inherent geomentry- so you have the naturalistic views. but, we fail to obtain a unique answers as we dont know or framed the principles of it.

2. what way you would like to say simian line as being evidence to support palmistry as science. There are good number of peoples have no genetic deformities in presence of simian crease.

3. If philosophy , naturalism, and spiritualism enters into the discussion, there will be no presence of science. Because, science looks for tangible and reasons only material. but, philosophy can explain any subject of fact in this universe. Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Thu May 26, 2011 3:59 pm

Patti wrote:
stalin.v wrote:What patti, ..
This is what the philosophy is. . .
Go with the following link, read the philosophy, if possible buy the book soon.. You can understand entire philosophy of the world ,

http://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t822-bhagavad-gita-english-version-hindu-s-holy-text

I have the book Stalin. I didn't understand why you mentioned killing others to make a point of 'righteousness'.

Some may also describe Issac's father Abraham as 'righteous', others might describe him as schizophrenic. Today hearing voices, and attempting to follow the voices, that tell you to kill your child to prove 'blind faith' would (or should) be kept at a safe distance from those they can harm.

You may enjoy reading "The Philosopher's Toolkit" by Julian Baggini and Peter S. Fosl.

If you really read that book, you wont have doubt why it is been righteousness. American president enjoy killing peoples of developing countries and could declare it as justice. Being an american, how you dont know this. Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Patti on Thu May 26, 2011 4:34 pm

So basically this is a conversation with no end.
wave

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Thu May 26, 2011 5:00 pm

Patti wrote:So basically this is a conversation with no end.
wave

As i said in my very first post of this discussion, unless so called 'palmistry experts ' know the principle of palmistry and explain them, there will be no end for many discussion of this forum. Again, Knowing and explaining the principle of palmistry is being the responsiblity of so called 'palmistry expert'. Otherwise, As said by Mr. sethi, If we dont know the principle of palmistry, it is equal to the person who lead life with no principles.
Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Patti on Thu May 26, 2011 5:53 pm

For some reason I'm reminded of the bridgekeeper in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"

Bridgekeeper Stop! What is your name?
King Arthur Sir Arthur, King of the Britons.
Bridgekeeper What is your quest?
King Arthur To seek the Holy Grail.
Bridgekeeper What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
King Arthur What do you mean? African or European swallow?
Bridgekeeper What? I don't know that.
Sir Bedevere How do you know so much about swallows?
King Arthur Well you have to know these things when you're a king you know.

p.s. not knowing the correct answer causes one to be cast from the bridge into an abyss

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri May 27, 2011 2:04 am


Hi Stalin,

Regarding your question - 'what is the principle of palmistry?' - I think one can formulate answers for this question from various perspectives.

But I would prefer to focuss here on a fundamental perspective, which should probably work for the hands of any living creature:

"Structure is the intimate expression of function"

- Quoted from John Hunter, Scottish surgeon (1728-1793) -



Very Happy ... therefore I think all palmists & hand analysts are using the likewise/same assumption as a starting point for studying hands.

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Parender on Fri May 27, 2011 1:42 pm

Very rightly said Martijn.

I can refer to Napier’s book in which the writer mentioned.

“John Hunter’s principle that “structure was the intimate expression of
function” and that function was conditioned by the environment.”

“John Hunter turned our attention from the structure of the hand to its function,
Charles Bell related the function of the hand to the environment, and Darwin
demonstrated that the environment, by process of natural selection, gave birth
to structure.”

Dexterity of the hand has been investigated deeply and widely in developmental
Psychology. Hence, we can say that the hand is an agency of the brain. It reflects activities of the brain and thereby it is a sort of mirror to the mind. This is the principle of Palmistry.

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Fri May 27, 2011 1:51 pm


Thanks Parender,

Yes, I found the quote in John Napier's book titled 'Hands', and I have mentioned both in my latest blog post, titled:

The :Evolution of the Human Hand

Thumbs up!




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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Fri May 27, 2011 4:21 pm

Hi martijn, Smile

My internet connection was not working properly. Yes, As said by pms, that was a good move from your side. Function itself express it through the structure. similarly, Structure expresses it's presence through it's function. So, both are inseparable. I agree. I give you example, cardiac functions, hepatic function etc., similarly, hand is the structure which is been functioning for our ordeals and commands of our mind. Let we focus further, by asking that what is the function of our structural palm lines and dermatoglyphics? I have given the naturalistic reason of it in my first post. Now the question is that what is the answer in terms of palmistry? In other words, can anyone say the structural and functional relationships of palm lines in terms of palmistry? This is where the principle of palmistry hidden. Otherwise, what you(martijn) explained become general philosophy? Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun May 29, 2011 1:56 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hi martijn, Smile

My internet connection was not working properly. Yes, As said by pms, that was a good move from your side. Function itself express it through the structure. similarly, Structure expresses it's presence through it's function. So, both are inseparable. I agree. I give you example, cardiac functions, hepatic function etc., similarly, hand is the structure which is been functioning for our ordeals and commands of our mind. Let we focus further, by asking that what is the function of our structural palm lines and dermatoglyphics? I have given the naturalistic reason of it in my first post. Now the question is that what is the answer in terms of palmistry? In other words, can anyone say the structural and functional relationships of palm lines in terms of palmistry? This is where the principle of palmistry hidden. Otherwise, what you(martijn) explained become general philosophy? Smile

Thanks Stalin!

Nice to see that you recognize as well that it is essential to recognize how 'structure' and 'function' in the body are related.


Regarding the lines... we can simply apply the same principle!!

However, to understand this properly I think be better make one step back... towards the 'structure' & 'function' of the fingers!


Patti presented recently an interesting picture which illustrates how the location of the major hand lines directly relates to the position of the so-called 'volar pads' in the fetal hand.

This illustrates how the position of the hand lines directly relates to how the hand develops... and because the palmar volar pads are located between the fingers, this illustrates again how also the lines directly relate to the fingers!




So I think, before discussing the structural and functional relationships of the lines... we better first focuss on the fingers!!

Stalin, does this make sense for you so far?


PS. Regarding the hands & feets of primates, reseachers have found that in the hands of apes the flexion creases / lines (+ friction skin) represent functional adaptations for grasping and locomotion. This is described by detail in the book 'Anthropology of Crease Morphogenesis' (page 94-95):
http://books.google.com/books?id=3pzhaonObMMC&

And at my website I have summarized myself some interesting details about the development of the hand lines:
http://www.handresearch.com/diagnostics/palmar-creases-hand-lines-embryology.htm


An impression of a hand in week 7 during pregnancy, which is just before the life line begins to develop (in week 8 ) :



(So I think likewise functions can be attributed to the human hand lines, but again, we better first focuss on the structural & functional relationships of the fingers)

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Sun May 29, 2011 8:28 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

Your scientific approach and quest on this subject is highly honorable. However, Let me tell you few facts here. Each one of our palm , palm lines, and dermatoglyphics individualize and differentiate us from one to another. But, so called 'embryological' study on human or any human body parts is said to be general to all. Here, We can never find peculiar differences of the individual. secondly, i wonder that how the vertically formed finger joint give way to form two transverse crease on palm. However, it is easy to note that Development of human hand at intrauterine life is common to all. but, palm is one of the phenomena which differentiate and individualize the man how gene does. So i see no scope we have if we try to find the principle of palmistry with the help of embryology, nor can be obtained through anatomy. Your thoughts on this grounds are welcomed Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:10 pm


Hi Stalin,

Thank you for honouring my 'approach'. And yes, I recognize that your first observation is true, you wrote:

"Each one of our palm , palm lines, and dermatoglyphics individualize and differentiate us from one to another."


But I don't see why the development of the hand could not explain the individual characteristics seen in the hand of an individual.

Embryology shows that the development of fingers, dermatoglyphics ... AND the major hand lines is for sure directly related (the so-called 'volar pads' play a key role in the development of all 3 elements).


So, therefore I think it would make sense to first search for PRINCIPLES which describe how fingers, dermatoglyphics and the major hand lines are expressions of the functionality of each of these individual elements!


Remember, you had no problem with my my basic principle and you agreed with the following words:

"Function itself express it through the structure. similarly, Structure expresses it's presence through it's function. So, both are inseparable."




Stalin, I think for understanding the implications of this basic principle ... it is actually a requirement to be aware of how all elements in the hand are connected/related to eachother. Because the early development of the hand (as described by embryology)shows how the elements develop... in relation to eachother!


Additionally, I think that the major 'principle of palmistry' should be associated with how a hand normally develops - which can be recognized as an expression of human nature as well.

And then it becomes 'the art' for us to recognize the significance of small variations from this normal development... every individual has many small variations... but not all of these small variations are likewise significant!

Makes sense now?

Thanks!

PS. Here you can find a visual animation of the hand development between 40 days and 8 months during pregnancy:
http://www.thevisualmd.com/videos/result/hand_development_from_embryo_to_fetus

And this is an awsome website which describes the major developments for the human hand week by week, starting from week 4-5 when there is only a 'hand plate':
http://www.ehd.org/dev_article_unit5.php

Finally, at my website I present an exclusive report about how the hand lines develop in the human embryo:
http://www.handresearch.com/diagnostics/palmar-creases-hand-lines-embryology.htm



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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:16 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

Can you explain a bit how you would like to frame the 'principle of palmistry' from the embryological aspect ? Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:38 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello martijn, Smile

Can you explain a bit how you would like to frame the 'principle of palmistry' from the embryological aspect ? Smile

Stalin, from my point of view... I have described that already in my previous post - anyway, I will try again to describe it more specified:

Starting from the principle: 'structure is an expression of function', I think it is only common sense to make a step back - by considering the issue concerning how the hand develops!

Therefore I think in order to describe the 'principle of palmistry', the following order is probably reuquire:
- first we'll have to study how the hand develops by it's structure;
- then we'll have to describe how it's structure relates to function.
- and finally we'll have to find out if there is any link between beteen the palmistry theories about the lines and the principle: 'structure is an expression of function'.


But maybe, it would also be helpfull if you describe more explicitely what you had in mijn with 'the principle of palmistry'!?

Because... in my first response I already described that one can answer your question from many perspectives: because you formulated your question rather unspecifiic.

(I choose to answer your question from a fundamental research perspective... and in your response you confirmed the significance of my answer ... however, I realize that my answer might not relate at all to what you initially had in mind with your question. Therefore, I think it would be helpfull if you explain the nature of your question a bit more).

wave

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:15 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

The sequences of embryological function causes the structure, to be specific in terms of palmistry, it is hands and hand lines. but, In terms of palmistry , we look for the function of palm lines after one's birth, or later. Now for sure we have ideas of how the palm line develops . but, we try to focus how it functions in terms of palmistry! am i right? So, Functions of palm lines, in terms of palmistry, and it's reasoning behind, may be explain the true principle of palmistry Smile

I also wonder, how in your website , you related the development of volar pad with finger prints! Does that means , peoples who has well developed mount will have whorl finger print in their respective finger? but it is not being truth practically. Dont you agree? Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:44 pm

stalin.v wrote:...

I also wonder, how in your website , you related the development of volar pad with finger prints! Does that means , peoples who has well developed mount will have whorl finger print in their respective finger? but it is not being truth practically. Dont you agree? Smile

No, that is not a correct - the 'volar pads' only relate to the temporary inflated palmar pads that are seen in the hand of a human fetus... so these should not be associated with the development of the mounts in an adult.

This implicates that there is no connection between a 'well developed mount' & the type of fingerprint.


Stalin, thanks for answering my question. It appears that you are assuming that the 'principle of the palmar lines' only starts after birth... but can you give an argument which allows your to make this assumption?

Sorry, so far I can not imagine any argument that could support this assumption.

By the way, your answer suggests that maybe you should have chosen a more specified title for this top: 'Principle of the palmistry lines'...?

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:53 pm

Hello martijn, Smile

1. if the volar pad changes after birth , or during the course of life, it is sure that embryology cannot give solution for our discussion. On the other hand, as i said earlier, embryology give the common ideas of how the palm and other body parts of human develops. but it did not individualize.
Next is, As a major example i mentioned palm lines indeed. but embryology never deals about function of body parts including palm and palm lines. Rather It gives only the idea how the hand develops in humans. so, could you make out here how embryology fails to reason the palmistry aspects?

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Patti on Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:16 pm

This conversation has evolved to a place that it fits a question and theory that I've been tossing around in my mind the past few weeks.

Current research on limb development is focused on using rats as they can control breeding and have several generations in a short period of time.

First they had to establish the embryological aspects of rat embryos and compare to humans.

Interestingly while human dermatoglyphics are complete and permanent prior to 18 weeks gestation, the rat's dermatoglyphics are not completed until up to 5 days after birth.

Studying serveral books that relate to the sense of touch in all kinds of critters, it is explained that the palmar and plantar surfaces of the different species relate to the needs of the animal. Does it burrow or hang from tree limbs?

Creases in humans are present after 30% of elapsed time whereas with rats the majority of creases are present "after 85% of the time elapsed in utero".

We are obviously more evolved and intelligent than a rat. alien

What I then find myself thinking about is why the rat doesn't has the wiring connected from the brain to the limb surface until after birth? Could it be they are designed to adapt to the location they find themselves in once they are born? Could the mother have travelled from, for instance, the city environment in a cargo shipment and gave birth in a rain forest...or a snow covered mountainside? Would nature provide a way for the rat's offspring to survive in the location they are born?

Why then are we equipped to 'touch/sense' our environment long before our birth?

Cool huh?! study


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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:57 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello martijn, Smile

1. if the volar pad changes after birth , or during the course of life, it is sure that embryology cannot give solution for our discussion. On the other hand, as i said earlier, embryology give the common ideas of how the palm and other body parts of human develops. but it did not individualize.
Next is, As a major example i mentioned palm lines indeed. but embryology never deals about function of body parts including palm and palm lines. Rather It gives only the idea how the hand develops in humans. so, could you make out here how embryology fails to reason the palmistry aspects?

Stalin, where did I suggest that embryology itself describes the 'principle of palmistry'?

I don't think that I made such a suggestion (at least that is not what I had in mind at all)... because I only presented some examples from that perspective (embryology) in order to describe why we should try to find the 'principle of palmistry' by focussing on the full hand!

But only after you presented your latest posts, I understood that you interest is basically only focussed on the 'lines' only.

(And I believe- and expect that this rather narrow approach that you had in mind from the start of this discussion... might not make you find any answers at all - beyond personal 'believes')


PS. Stalin, I think it's just fine if you would like to continue to focuss this topic about the 'lines' only... afterall, you are the one who created this topic!

... Thumb up

However, I think you are making a fundamental mistake... by excluding the other aspects of the hand for finding an answer to your question (about the fundamentals of palmistry).

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  kiwihands on Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:24 pm

Patti wrote:What I then find myself thinking about is why the rat doesn't has the wiring connected from the brain to the limb surface until after birth? Could it be they are designed to adapt to the location they find themselves in once they are born? Could the mother have travelled from, for instance, the city environment in a cargo shipment and gave birth in a rain forest...or a snow covered mountainside? Would nature provide a way for the rat's offspring to survive in the location they are born?

Why then are we equipped to 'touch/sense' our environment long before our birth?

Cool huh?! study


Thumbs up!

VERY cool! What an intriguing theory!!!

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Lynn on Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:40 pm

stalin.v wrote:Hello lynn, Smile

Philosophies will be worthless if you studied either from universities or from yourself. It should be just understood for it's application and use.

Let me take back the word 'philosophy' if you feel it as strange. Just how would you like to relate 5 elements with the hands ? it is spiritual relationship or scientific relationship or naturalistic relationship? Smile

sorry stalin I never answered this question. It's a symbolic relationship, based on the principles of the elements in nature.

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:33 am

Hello martijn, Smile

1. I dont want to talk exclusively about palm lines in this discussion. Rather i look for the all grounds of palmistry and it's principles .

2. If you aware of the futility of embryology in this discussion, why do we need such study?

Hello patti, Smile

can you tell me the relation between rats and human? It is the idiocy of modern science whenever they try to experiment on animals and relate the result with humans. Especially this type of mistake produce grave danger to the humanity. When the pharmacist introduce a medicine, first he experiment it in animals like rat, goat etc., According to the limits of side effects , it comes to the medical business later. For sure, many of the animals immune to the poison which is lethal to human. This is the reason why many medicines are been banned by medical profession after it's prolonged use among humans. They always learn things too late which causes innumeral artificial diseases and death. patti, it need careful views before you enter into like this kind of discussion.

lynn, Smile let we have discussion on your point later today. . . Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  sv-b on Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:51 am

Hello lynn, Smile

Chinese categorisation of elements are water, fire, wood, metal, and land. If you notice, you can find chinese excludes air and
ether elements. So the chinese ideas of elements are not fitting with the 5 element cheirology system.

I also give 2 links here. It will help you for the analysing..

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cfu/choc/choc06.htm

http://www.friesian.com/elements.htm

Lynn, can you also mention that based on what religious philosophy , 5 element cheirology is been practiced? Smile

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Lynn on Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:59 am

When I studied 5 element hand analysis, we were told it was based on Chinese Buddhist tradition. We later learnt that was not true.
http://www.cheirology.net/cheirologicalsociety/cha.htm

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Re: Principle of palmistry. . . ! :)

Post  Martijn (admin) on Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:25 am

stalin.v wrote:...

2. If you aware of the futility of embryology in this discussion, why do we need such study?

Hi stalin,

Actually, I described why I think that the 'embryology' is actually an important element in this discussion... because it shows how the fundamental relationships between the elements of the hand.

(And I think that describing these relationships could very well be a necessary step in order to understand the nature of the indivual elements properly)


So, I have no idea why you started suggesting that I was talking about the 'futility' of embryology in this discussion.

Stalin, I only mentioned that embryology itself does not describe the principle of palmistry, but that does not exclude embryology from playing a key-rol in describing how in the hand "structure is the intimate expression of function".

I hope this now will make sense for you as well....!!!?

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