Re: Do you have normal finger length? [locked]

**Martijn (admin)** Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:50 am

mirrzzaa wrote:
hi Martijn, sorry for the mistake in the the measurement,

MY RIGHT HAND:

Finger length (middle finger):8 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 8.8 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 11 cm

Finger length to palm breadth ratio: 8.0 / 8.8 = 0.909
Finger length to palm length ratio: 8.0 / 11.0 = 0.727

Finger length index: 8.0 / (8.8+11.0) = 0.404

MY LEFT HAND:

Finger length (middle finger): 8 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 8.7 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 11 cm

Finger length to palm breadth ratio: 8.0 / 8.7 = 0.920
Finger length to palm length ratio: 8.0 / 11.0 = 0.727

Finger length index: 8.0 / (8.7+11.0) = 0.406

MY ANALYSIS FOR YOUR HANDS:

- The numbers for both hands are below the international average for males, but within the normal range (so your finger lengths are typical for a male).

- Your 'finger length index' is relatively low, though just inside the normal range for both hands (also typical for a male).

- Hardly any difference for your 'finger length' between both hands.

- Finally, I could add a more speculative note (I am still working on this aspect)... your finger length index is not typical for a male from South Asia (though not unusual neither) - unfortunately I do not any specific data for people from Pakistan.

PS. Your photos confirm that you might have even short finger length relative to palm breadth than suggested by your measurements (with below average finger length relative to palm length). That indicates that you have an '~~earth~~ earth-fire hand shape' (in the perspective of elemental hand reading - various discussions related to elemental hand reading are available in this forum section: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/f3-iiic-elemental-chirology).

So, I guess you basically clearly have short fingers.

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed the 'finger length reading'!

mirrzzaa Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:22 am

Martijn (admin) wrote:
mirrzzaa wrote:
hi Martijn, sorry for the mistake in the the measurement,

MY RIGHT HAND:

Finger length (middle finger):8 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 8.8 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 11 cm

Finger length to palm breadth ratio: 8.0 / 8.8 = 0.909
Finger length to palm length ratio: 8.0 / 11.0 = 0.727

Finger length index: 8.0 / (8.8+11.0) = 0.404

MY LEFT HAND:

Finger length (middle finger): 8 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 8.7 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 11 cm

Finger length to palm breadth ratio: 8.0 / 8.7 = 0.920
Finger length to palm length ratio: 8.0 / 11.0 = 0.727

Finger length index: 8.0 / (8.7+11.0) = 0.406

MY ANALYSIS FOR YOUR HANDS:

- The numbers for both hands are below the international average for males, but within the normal range (so your finger lengths are typical for a male).

- Your 'finger length index' is relatively low, though just inside the normal range for both hands (also typical for a male).

- Hardly any difference for your 'finger length' between both hands.

- Finally, I could add a more speculative note (I am still working on this aspect)... your finger length index is not typical for a male from South Asia (though not unusual neither) - unfortunately I do not any specific data for people from Pakistan.

PS. Your photos confirm that you might have even short finger length relative to palm breadth than suggested by your measurements (with below average finger length relative to palm length). That indicates that you have an '~~earth~~ earth-fire hand shape' (in the perspective of elemental hand reading - various discussions related to elemental hand reading are available in this forum section: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/f3-iiic-elemental-chirology).

So, I guess you basically clearly have short fingers.

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed the 'finger length reading'!

Hi Martijn,

Hi Martijn,

thanks for ur analyses and you are right I have an Earth shaped hand, Small fingers while long palm.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:04 pm

mirrzzaa wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
mirrzzaa wrote:
hi Martijn, sorry for the mistake in the the measurement,

MY RIGHT HAND:

Finger length (middle finger):8 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 8.8 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 11 cm

Finger length to palm breadth ratio: 8.0 / 8.8 = 0.909
Finger length to palm length ratio: 8.0 / 11.0 = 0.727

Finger length index: 8.0 / (8.8+11.0) = 0.404

MY LEFT HAND:

Finger length (middle finger): 8 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 8.7 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 11 cm

Finger length to palm breadth ratio: 8.0 / 8.7 = 0.920
Finger length to palm length ratio: 8.0 / 11.0 = 0.727

Finger length index: 8.0 / (8.7+11.0) = 0.406

MY ANALYSIS FOR YOUR HANDS:

- The numbers for both hands are below the international average for males, but within the normal range (so your finger lengths are typical for a male).

- Your 'finger length index' is relatively low, though just inside the normal range for both hands (also typical for a male).

- Hardly any difference for your 'finger length' between both hands.

- Finally, I could add a more speculative note (I am still working on this aspect)... your finger length index is not typical for a male from South Asia (though not unusual neither) - unfortunately I do not any specific data for people from Pakistan.

PS. Your photos confirm that you might have even short finger length relative to palm breadth than suggested by your measurements (with below average finger length relative to palm length). That indicates that you have an '~~earth~~ earth-fire hand shape' (in the perspective of elemental hand reading - various discussions related to elemental hand reading are available in this forum section: https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/f3-iiic-elemental-chirology).

So, I guess you basically clearly have short fingers.

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed the 'finger length reading'!

Hi Martijn,

thanks for ur analyses and you are right I have an Earth shaped hand, Small fingers while long palm.
but i have a question for u if u know about it then must reply, i have an mole on the lunar mount, what is it mean?

Hello Mirza,

Sorry, I do not attribute much value to moles. But maybe you can ask that question in some other forum topic? (Because your mole-question goes beyond this topic).

By the way, yesterday I made some progress regarding the topic of elemental hand shape... and it turns out now that you have a combination of earth/fire hand shape (for both hands). I have corrected this now in my earlier analysis.

wave

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:08 pm

Do you have normal finger length? [locked] - Page 2 Finger-length-variations-hand-shapes-axes-2

Yesterday we made some significant progress regarding how to recognize 'elemental hand shape' from the hand dimesions based on finger length - the result is presented above.

(You can read more about this research in the topic: Intro to 5 element chirology )

Therefore it now becomes much more interesting to see the implications for 'elemental hand shape' regarding the measurements presented here so far (and it would for sure be interesting to hear the thoughts are regarding these new results!):

(By the way, the finger coordinates of the people below are NOT presented in the picture above)

My hands:
- right hand (fl/pb: 0.989, fl/pl: 0.747): ~~close to~~ fire hand shape
- left hand (fl/pb: 0.978, fl/pl: 0.766): fire hand shape

Lynn's hands:
- right hand (fl/pb: 1.026, fl/pl: 0.784): ~~fire/water~~ fire/air hand shape
- left hand (fl/pb: 1.026, fl/pl: 0.782): ~~fire/water~~ fire/air hand shape

Patti's hands:
- right hand (fl/pb: 1.000, fl/pl: 0.823): air hand shape
- left hand (fl/pb: 0.987, fl/pl: 0.794): ~~close to neutral (most close to earth hand shape)~~ fire/air hand shape

Tap's hands:
- right hand (fl/pb: 0.987, fl/pl: 0.780): fire hand shape ~~(close to neutral)~~
- left hand (fl/pb: 1.027, fl/pl: 0.777): ~~fire/water~~ fire/air hand shape

Mirrzzaa's hands:
- right hand (fl/pb: 0.909, fl/pl: 0.727): earth/fire hand shape
- left hand (fl/pb: 0.920, fl/pl: 0.727): fire/earth hand shape

**tap** Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:29 pm

Wow!

I think this chart clarifies a lot for people using the 5 element system in determining specific hand shape(s) and the degree of attributes to them. Very helpful for people to quickly see and understand their hand shape. Thumb up

PS I just charted a few hands I have on file and this seems to really work well! happy move

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:58 pm

Hi Tap,

Very nice to see that you appreciate the benefits of this new tool.

Yes, it looks like assessing (elemental) hand shape now no longer is solely a matter of perception & evaluation.

Thank you for sharing your enthousiasm!

Thanks!

mirrzzaa Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:18 pm

hi Martijn,

nice work and Tap is right that chart really help us to identity the shape of the hand, Thumb up

btw it sounds good to know that i have an Earth/Fire shape hand, so it meanz the charastic of Fire hand also fits on me. Thumbs up!

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:25 pm

Thanks Mirrzzaa,

Very nice to hear from you that you recognized as well how this chart can serve for practical purposes.

Thanks!

**Lynn** Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:50 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn's hands:
- right hand (fl/pb: 1.026, fl/pl: 0.784): fire/water hand shape
- left hand (fl/pb: 1.026, fl/pl: 0.782): fire/water hand shape

previous measurements given
MY RIGHT HAND:
Finger length (middle finger): 8 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 7.8 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 10.2 cm

MY LEFT HAND:
Finger length (middle finger): 7.9 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 7.7 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 10.1 cm

ah now here we have a discrepancy because in the 5 element system my hands are not fire / water! The measurements above were taken across the metacarpals, but if measured across the centre of the palm my hand is 8cm. almost standard fire palm, not narrow enough to be water. My (medium) fingers are a bit longer than standard fire hands so this adds air element.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:19 pm

Lynn wrote:
Martijn (admin) wrote:
Lynn's hands:
- right hand (fl/pb: 1.026, fl/pl: 0.784): fire/water hand shape
- left hand (fl/pb: 1.026, fl/pl: 0.782): fire/water hand shape

previous measurements given
MY RIGHT HAND:
Finger length (middle finger): 8 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 7.8 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 10.2 cm

MY LEFT HAND:
Finger length (middle finger): 7.9 cm
Palm breadth (at end of metacarpals): 7.7 cm
Palm length (from upper wrist crease): 10.1 cm

ah now here we have a discrepancy because in the 5 element system my hands are not fire / water! The measurements above were taken across the metacarpals, but if measured across the centre of the palm my hand is 8cm. almost standard fire palm, not narrow enough to be water. My (medium) fingers are a bit longer than standard fire hands so this adds air element.

Haha... Lynn, is this really a discrepancy?

Because your comment sounds like so far you assumed to have a typical 'fire palm' shape. No problem thus far.

However, you mentioned that your finger length is 'medium'... which makes me wonder why you associate this with 'air'? Why not associating it with water?

Let me explain how I see it:

In general... due to the 'square palm' that is associated with air hand shape, one would expect that air finger length would typically require to be LONGER than water finger length! Why? Well, that is because especially water hand shape is associated with a NARROW palm (but not a long palm like is seen in fire hand shape!)... which sort of implicates normal palm length + slightly long finger length for the typical water hand!

NOTICE: The descriptions given by Dukes and Fincham confirm this, for example Fincham speaks about that in air hands fingers are required to be longer than ''seven-eights of the length of the palm or more". However, However, regarding water hands finger are only required "seven-eights the palm length... and longer than the width"!

While in air hand shape, one can expect due to the SHORT palm length... LONGER finger length in a typical air hand, compared to the slightly long finger length in a typical water hand?

So, would you mind to explain your thinking here? Why associate 'medium' finger length with air?

Because I have just described why your 'normal finger length' more points in the direction of water ... than air. That is, according my sense for 'logics'. Wink

(Lynn, maybe you have other hand features that can be recognized to represent the influence of air?)

**Lynn** Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:40 pm

If my palm were narrower, the medium length fingers would make it fire/water. But my palm is not narrow enough to be a fire/water hand. and fire/water is not my mode of expression.

edit PS I didn't answer your question. The palm represents the body, the fingers represent the mind. Short fingers on a fire hand are more impulsive, instinctive. Longer fingers on a fire hand tend to think about things more before acting (ie adds air element).

Yes of course I have other features on my hand that are ruled by air element (so does everyone - we all have a headline of some form!). But here we are talking about handshape, how you use your energy out in the world, your mode of expression.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:05 pm

Lynn wrote:If my palm were narrower, the medium length fingers would make it fire/water. But my palm is not narrow enough to be a fire/water hand. and fire/water is not my mode of expression.

edit PS I didn't answer your question. The palm represents the body, the fingers represent the mind. Short fingers on a fire hand are more impulsive, instinctive. Longer fingers on a fire hand tend to think about things more before acting (ie adds air element).

Sorry, but your measurements indicate that your palm IS slightly narrow (because of the relatively high finger to palm breadth ratio).

So, I still don't understand why make make any direct connection with air.

PS. Maybe it is interesting here for you to take a look at the distance of your finger length ratios to in respective the F, A and W button: your coordinates are at closer distance to the A-button than the W-button. Maybe that could indicate how to interpretate your coordinates?

Be aware Lynn... we made a discovery, but we are still in the process of how to 'translate' the discovery into practical guidelines, etc. So, I hope you will continue thinking about how to interpretate the axes... instead of suddenly jumping into conclusions that may at the end may turn out to have not much ground below at all.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:08 pm

PS. I have an unanswered question open for you to answer:

After you shared the CS-guidelines for the dimensions for finger length, palm length and palm breadth for a typical fire hand... I wondered whether you have likewise guidelins available for the other hand types?

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:15 pm

Lynn, maybe your 'problem' is another clue:

I think I should add some zones in the picture, which should illustrate the typical borders for each of the 4 hand shapes. That would make it much more easy to assess how far an individual is positioned from the typical dimensions for each hand shape.

I guess that was a missing element in the picture so far!!!

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:26 pm

I have just made an important improvement regarding the starting point of the axes in the picture, resulting in that my earlier assessment for the hands of Lynn, Patti and Tap now have changed a bit, see the earlier post:
https://www.modernhandreadingforum.com/t1975p15-about-finger-length-do-you-have-normal-finger-length#20988

I hope this makes sense for you all?

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:43 pm

Lynn, after defining the starting points of the axes... it now looks like the picture points out that the 'water hand' is probably the least common of the 4 hand types (because only a small part of the water-axis is inside the elipse shaped 'common variations''-zone).

And regarding the combinations, fire/air appears to be most common. And earth/water is the only combination that is not possible at all - that makes sense! Very Happy

What is your experience regarding these points?

PS. I think these observations perfectly make sense, and these indicate to me that re-defining the starting points is another huge step ahead!

**tap** Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:54 pm

Hi Martijn

Is there some way you could label the starting points of the axes with the number they initiate at, or just post it somewhere in the key? It is very difficult to see exactly where they start.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:59 pm

tap wrote:Hi Martijn

Is there some way you could label the starting points of the axes with the number they initiate at, or just post it somewhere in the key? It is very difficult to see exactly where they start.

Excellent point Tap!

For practical purposes it is useful to have those finger coordinates more explicitely available in the picture. I will work on that later today - thank you for making this request.

Thumbs up!

**tap** Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:09 pm

Lynn

I am going to retake my measurements the way you do in 5 element and redo the other ones I did. It does seem like it really would make a difference. Measuring the palm wider is changing classifications with the hand shapes. Although this change to the chart, might negate the need ?

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:17 pm

tap wrote:Lynn

I am going to retake my measurements the way you do in 5 element and redo the other ones I did. It does seem like it really would make a difference. Measuring the palm wider is changing classifications with the hand shapes. Although this change to the chart, might negate the need ?

(Sounds fine with me to experiment with Lynn's approach as well - as long as you are fully aware that 'palm breadth' in my pictures is defined as palm width at the end of the metacarpals. Because it would not make sense for me if the results that I have presented are directly being used to make assessment based on other method for finding palm width.

So Tap, if you start using Lynn's approach to palm width... then you should also adopt her standards for long/short fingers, etc. - instead of the guidelines that I present in my pictures)

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:20 pm

tap wrote:Hi Martijn

Is there some way you could label the starting points of the axes with the number they initiate at, or just post it somewhere in the key? It is very difficult to see exactly where they start.

Hi Tap,

On second thought it become quite easy for me to process your request: I have now added some colored points at the axes in the picture - which represent the starting points of the 4 axes.

Is that helpful?

**tap** Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:26 pm

Hi Martijn

I need to reread through all this. I am not sure I am understanding it all. So on your chart the area in between the starting points of the axes is neutral?

I really hope the chart works out because it seems to be very useful for the 5 element system.

**Martijn (admin)** Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:43 pm

tap wrote:Hi Martijn

I need to reread through all this. I am not sure I am understanding it all. So on your chart the area in between the starting points of the axes is neutral?

I really hope the chart works out because it seems to be very useful for the 5 element system.

Tap, I am not sure what your word 'neutral' means here (because I am no longer using that word after I re-defined the starting point of the axes).

Assuming that you are talking about the zone between the new starting points of the 4 axes... in that zone you can always focus for any point (hand) on the closest distance to the 4 axes.

For example:

Regarding the rather small zone BETWEEN the starting point of the fire-axis and the air-axis - one can say that the distance to both axes in that small zone is sort of always about to be equal. And therefore, for that zone I would not focus on finding out which distance is the shortest... instead for that zone I would always prefer to speak of a 'fire/air hand shape'... or 'air/fire hand shape'(depending on which distance is the smallest!).

Because the distance difference to both axes is then "too close to call".

And you can use the same principle for any other zone in the picture: only when a distance to one of the axes is clearly much shorter than the distance to the other axes... then one can speak of a clear indication the classification of one single hand type.

Does this make sense?

(I am thinking out loud here)

**tap** Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:52 pm

Okay

Thanks for adding the dots, but it would be nice to know the exact number each dot represents. I am not sure how my hand changed by the starting point of the axes being defined. It seems like my finger length (.777) is too short to be air, since the air dot is above the 80% mark, but I do see the air shape got narrower.

Anyhow, I hope you and Lynn agree on the measuring and and in turn the chart.

PS I meant neutral as average, but I see what you are saying.

**Lynn** Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:53 pm

Martijn (admin) wrote:
PS. I have an unanswered question open for you to answer:

After you shared the CS-guidelines for the dimensions for finger length, palm length and palm breadth for a typical fire hand... I wondered whether you have likewise guidelins available for the other hand types?

I will check.

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